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I get this from a recent PFS scenario where my LN dwarven fighter, a devout Gorumite from day 1 (and my first character... ever) was teamed up with a cleric/fighter of Gorum, who was CN. I mentioned that my character was a LN Gorumite, and he just said that doesn't work.
I think it works because, in my fighter's background, he was a soldier, naturally worshipping the god that might help him the most. But, he is an honor-bound soldier, loyal to a fault to his employers, who hold his contract (Qadira/Pathfinders). Would you say this works?
You can think Gorum is a great martial deity, but you probably could never count as a worshipper/follow of Gorum in any mechanical sense, and in-game, may not be seen as a 'true' follower by any who can discern your alignment. That said, I don't see why there isn't a decent number of such characters in Golarion, characters may think good things about any number of deities whose Alignment clashes with their own (too much to be a Cleric of said deity) but who nonetheless go out of their way to show respect and talk up the deities they like... At some level you are rationalizing away actual differences the Diety may have with your ideals, or are simply unaware of your own ideals in the first place.
I'm not sure I see how Gorum is the god that would help him the most in the first place.
You're free to worship whoever you wish just like in real life (if your class is not strongly tied to religion).
The one part of Gorum that would clash is that Gorum would be of the opinion that contracts are rather meaningless and unless your employers were strong enough to command respect, they probably wouldn't be worth following.
Although, theres nothing that says you can't be conflicted by your religious beliefs.
Until this line from page 6 of the current Guide gets changed, you are out of luck:
Characters may elect to worship an evil god, but must always be within one alignment step of their chosen deity.
Yes, Gorum is not evil, but the one step applies to any deity your character truly worships. Being Lawful Neutral, your character could honor or respect Gorum, making small offerings for victory in war and such, but he cannot outright worship him.
However, if you change your alignment to true Neutral or to Chaotic Good, then you would be one step away and be perfectly fine under the current rules. Or you could just switch to Chaotic Neutral and match him. Since you do not have any divine powers, there would be no penalty for the switch.
As for Religion Traits, from the APG and Traits Web Enhancement:
Religion Traits: Religion traits indicate that your character has an established faith in a specific deity; you need not be a member of a class that can wield divine magic to pick a religion trait, but you do have to have a patron deity and have some amount of religion in your background to justify this trait. Unlike the other categories of traits, religion traits can go away if you abandon your religion, as detailed below under Restrictions on Trait Selection.
While to some, patron deity may be a gray area, to many others such as myself, it means you must be within one step of the deity's alignment to have that trait in PFS play. So to many PFS Judges, your character could be ruled illegal and would need either the trait replaced or the alignment changed.
The thing about Gorum is that the joy and excitement of battle are what it's all about.
A Lawful character might be expected to obey orders not to engage in battle. A Gorumite character would, if he were following the dictates of his god, want to engage in battle rather than turning down opportunities. Gorum hates cowards who don't fight.
See the problem?
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Indeed. I am uncertain if Gorum is an ideal fit for the ideal disciplined soldier. His faith calls for a bit more of a mercenary outlook and a hunger for tearing things down.
Still, I do not have a problem with the interpretation of Our Lord in Iron that I see here. Especially if you are looking to get away from the other strong fits for lawful soldiering, Torag and Iomedae.
I got the impression from the faiths of balance book is that a large part of the gorumite faith is about the adrenaline high from the uncontrollled chaos of warfare that could kill them at any moment.
I guess a rl analogy is they want to create the situations that cause ptsd over and over and oer til. They die.
It seems to me this goes against a ln mindset.
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You can think Gorum is a great martial deity, but you probably could never count as a worshipper/follow of Gorum in any mechanical sense, and in-game, may not be seen as a 'true' follower by any who can discern your alignment. That said, I don't see why there isn't a decent number of such characters in Golarion, characters may think good things about any number of deities whose Alignment clashes with their own (too much to be a Cleric of said deity) but who nonetheless go out of their way to show respect and talk up the deities they like... At some level you are rationalizing away actual differences the Diety may have with your ideals, or are simply unaware of your own ideals in the first place.
I'm not sure I see how Gorum is the god that would help him the most in the first place.
Ayup. I believe it was said somewhere that there are people who believe that Asmodeus isn't evil, just misunderstood...
Those people could actually become clerics. The Separatist archetype allows them to worship a certain deity in a different way than others, but still get spells from them. Essentially like a schism in christianity. Catholics could be considered Lawful (or used to be, or what have you) since their belief system revolved around structure, rank, and very specific interpretations of ceremony and rules, whereas Lutherans could be considered Chaotic, since they advocate the freedom of others to interpret the Bible freely, along with the eschewing of order, a theocratic church structure, and a vast number of ceremonies. But both of these religions are valid, both are considered "Christian", and if clerics existed in our world I'm sure God would grant spells to both. Same idea, basically. From what i read of Gorum, there is little about the Lord in Iron that denominates that Chaos, other than the Chaos of Battle itself, is a big part of his dominion and focus. He's more about the battle than about any of the other details. Think of him as Ares, rather than Athena. Less strategy, more making things die. A soldier could easily worship Gorum and still be "loyal and follow his own code", just not when it comes to fighting. When the heat is on, rules fly out the window except for "don't die." That's pretty much his number one tenement as far as I can tell...
So, your PC wants to follow a god who isn't within the typical alignment restrictions, but also isn't someone who gets anything from said worship.
I think thats awesome, myself. A character can basically do anything and worship a god. Now that god may disagree, and the clrics of that god may strongly disagree, but you can do it.
You could invoke the holiest of holy deities while you cut off an orphans head and.. well.. you are allowed to do it. There is no metaphysical thing coming down and choking your character to keep them from invoking whoever they want when they do whatever they want. And I mean no sarcasm in that.
/if your PC isn't someone who gets divine power they can do whatever they want, religiously/. Because there is no mechanical penalty for doing so.
How does this mean that the character is actually doing worship? Not necessarily. Deities have their dogma and their rules. If they say their righteous must do A-Z and you are running around doing ABC- ahh heck with the rest! that makes you less than pious and not a particularly good example for the others of the faith (and quite possibly a heretic, depending on what exactly it is you are or aren't doing) but nothing stops your character from claiming they are worshipping whoever it is they are worshipping.
Excepting the clerics/paladin/devout faithful of whoever it is you claim to be serving :)
Its one of those odd things that is best served by awesome RP dialogue rather than by some giant banhammer coming down saying your throat closes when you try to invoke some gods name inappropriately.
I would hope to see some awesome RP between an actual cleric or paladin of a deity vs someone who just thought they were a devout follower but who actually was disregarding parts of the faith. (Via being the wrong alignment and therefore not acting appropriately, etc..)
-S
So, do I need to be realigning my LN Oracle (Gorum)? Kinda sounds like it.
Yes, oracles/clerics need to be within 1 alignment step of their Deity. So N, CG, CN, CE. Not sure if diagonals on the alignment grid are considered "1 step", but if they are: NG & NE also open up.
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So, do I need to be realigning my LN Oracle (Gorum)? Kinda sounds like it.
Oracles don't have to have deities at all, and, even if they prefer this deity or that, don't have to abide by a cleric's alignment restrictions in any event.
You can be a NE Oracle of Bones who reveres Sarenrae, if you want.
Sarenrae may not accept your friend request, but you'll still get Oracle spells.
Gorum happens to be an ideal choice for a profession soldier. A LG soldier might prefer Iomedae, but nobody is *forced* to worship a god of a similar alignment to their own, save a Cleric (Paladin, Inquisitor, whatever).
So, do I need to be realigning my LN Oracle (Gorum)? Kinda sounds like it.
Only if the character is a PFS character and you worship Gorum. Or if it is for a home game and your GM tells you to do it. Otherwise, only do it if it fits your idea of your character better.
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Remember that deities are complicated things, and the depiction of a god in one culture or one individual's personal version of that god may be different from their "real" self. I say go for it, it makes total sense for a soldier to pray to Gorum. Historically Greek soldiers would pray to Ares, even though he was a hated and spiteful deity who in D&D terms would probably be CE.
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So, I've got two conflicting answers.
1) (I was in this camp) Any relationship between an Oracle (PFS or not) is merely fluff. Alignment is not restricted as with Clerics (although PFS does specify non-evil).
2) If you have a PFS Oracle they need to be within one step of their deity's alignment.
Given that the iconic Oracle is pantheistic, I kind of think option 1) makes more sense from a PFS standpoint. My character is a PFS character. How should I proceed?
Jeremiziah,
Well, like I posted earlier, there is that line in the PFS Guide that talks about being within one step of your deity if your character worships a deity, regardless of getting divine power from it or not. That line has been up for debate in the PFS forums before and various heads of the PFS have said it would get changed, but it never has. So for PFS play, it is going to come down to GM discretion. Some will not be strict about it, while others will. My suggestion is, until the rule gets changed or clarified, to check with the GM in advance on how he or she feels about it. If they do not care, then play it up if you want, if they do care, then tone it down or do not even mention in character that you worship a deity that is not within one step. Heck, how often in PFS games do the other players even know both the alignment and deity of your character?
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Good point, En. Thanks.
Realistically, I primarily play at a home game table, and for that purpose the GM isn't going to care at all I don't think.
What I want to avoid is showing up at GenCon and having someone make a big deal out of it. It shouldn't be a big deal, as best as I can determine. I guess I'll take my chances.
For what it's worth, Abadar (war as strategy/tactics, rather than adrenaline-rush combat) would probably make a better deity for a LN professional soldier. Clerics of Abadar have access to Nobility/Leadership and Protection/Defense domains/subdomains, also.
If you don't mind the influence of/leanings toward good (some do, some don't), Iomedae is LG and has the War domain.
Sarenrae may not accept your friend request...
Thanks Set, this really made me laugh :)
I would say the best bet is listing the Deity you worship as: Gorum (separatist).
You aren't a Cleric with that specific Archetype, but you are worshipping Gorum in effectively the same way a Separatist Cleric does.
Since said Clerics DO gain most of the 'special stuff' normal Clerics of the same God do,
I don't think there will be a problem with taking '(real) Worshipper of X God' traits,
unless Paizo does anything specifically restricted to/against Separatist worshippers...
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I can't see any real problem, with a LN character following Gorum. I can see it, and I can't see why a CN god, or cleric, would care for that matter. They're Chaotic Neutral! The alignment steps are for clerics, paladins and inquisitor, as I read it. I've known and read stories about characters giving little prayers to different gods. A character can give a prayer to Gorum before battle, Desna when gambling, Pharasma at childbirth or at a funeral, toast Cayden Cailean while drinking and so on.
I figure as long as he's not hoping to cast divine spells, I don't see the problem.