Is this fighter archer performing up to scratch?


Advice


So I've got a level 8 fighter of the archer archetype, half-elf. He's meant to function primarily as a spotter and sniper (he has +20 to Perception checks...) with stat line:

Str 16
Dex 17
Con 13
Int 12
Wis 12
Cha 8

He's taken the classic feats (weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon spec, point blank, deadly aim, plus others not related to attack/damage), has Bracers of Archery (+2 att/+1 dam), and Expert Archer from the archetype bumps it up another +1/+1. Obviously he has a strength 3 composite longbow of +1... so running through the numbers, without any situational/optional feats a full round attack does +17 => 1d8+8, +12 => 1d8+8.
In an 'ideal' scenario, within 30ft and using deadly aim, rapid shot and manyshot, this becomes... +14 => 1d8+13 and 1d8+13, +14 => 1d8+13, +9 => 1d8+13. Taking 4.5 as a dice average this is 70 damage...

So my question is; does this seem 'good' enough? I've seen some examples of an archer doing +26 to hit at level 10, which I don't see happening for this char anytime soon. Basically, am I missing something obvious to help improve either my attack bonus or damage? Also, changing class (e.g. to zen archer) is not an option for me in my current game...

Liberty's Edge

Well, Dex 17 at 8th level is a little low, 18'd be more typical. Not a huge deal, though.

Your gear is also a bit below what might be expected. Personally, I'd expect a +2 bow and a Belt of Dexterity +2, and that Bow being +3 by 10th level.

Those changes there, along with Weapon Training at 9th, are enough to get you to +23 at 10th. +24 if you had that Dex 18. I don't know where the other +2 would come from, but I'm sure I could figure something out given time, and equally sure it's not really necessary.

So in short, your build is fine, though a bit below average in Dex. Grab a better bow and a Dex belt to really improve your to hit bonus, if that's what you want to do. Actually, it's likely a good idea anyway, for purposes of AC (the belt), and overcoming DR (the bow).


Cheers for the response :)

Yeah, I agree that I could have a bit more equipment, but what I didn't mention is that I have a set of mithril full-plate armour which gives me *bonuses* to acrobatics and climb, hence I can climb damn near anything with ease, and set myself up in a good spot to snipe for the rest of the fight... this cost a serious amount and left me a bit wanting in terms of cash, hence the not-as-great bow :P However, we've been getting some money, so I might try to do a few upgrades...

Liberty's Edge

In that case you're cool. A bit less offensive and more defensive than many, but still cool (if, as mentioned, a bit below average in Dex). Focus your purchases on offense for a while and you'll be good to go.

Liberty's Edge

Just a quick question: Where did you put the 2 stat point upgrades from 4th & 8th levels?

Yes, a belt of dex +2 would be a good purchase, and only 4k.
Gloves of Dueling for 15K would net you +2 to hit and damage for your bow

HE: Skill Focus (probably Perception?)
1: Point Blank Shot
F1: Precise Shot
F2: Weapon Focus
3: Rapid Shot
F4: Weapon Spec
5: Point-Blank Master?
F6: Manyshot
7: Deadly Aim
F8: GWF

Above is your presumed feat list, order is fairly variable except for a few specific feats.

Mithril full-plate is actually not as good a deal for an Archer archetype Fighter as you may think, since you gave up Armor Training, so you give up several things despite the mithril, including having a slower speed and a significant ACP. Celestial Armor might have been a better deal, especially since it lets you fly once a day...

Other items of use:
Boots of Speed (unless your party has a spellcaster who consistently casts Haste)

Remember special material arrows, and, if the GM allows the sources, Weapon Blanching.


Dont forget boots of speed or a speed weapon for another attack at your full BAB.

I would get a dex +2 belt first and something speed second. It's too bad that your mithral full plate isn't the mithral full plate of speed special armor. I love those.


Ew, Bracers of Archery, Greater before a +3 Weapon? Unless those were given to you, it's not very cost efficient, since it's only a +2 attack/+2 Damage for 25k, whereas a +3 bow is a +3 attack/damage for only 18k. I would have waited on the bracers until I had all my other magic items covered, but they're still useful, so might as well keep them.


Well, you see- the archer in general is one of the least useful roles. He has no healing, no boosting, no battlefield control, doesn't take damage or block bad guys from getting to the squishies, and doesn't have enough skills to be much of a help.

Yes, he does damage, but it's too easy to block his damage 100%. Heck, one feat and his first shot is always blocked. There's a bunch of spells that make archers cry and DR can make them mostly useless.

Sure, the archer bard, etc are nifty builds. But they act as party boosters that also fire arrows.

So- a fighter/archer? No build would be any good, imho.

Liberty's Edge

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DrDeth wrote:
So- a fighter/archer? No build would be any good, imho.

Funny. I've seen people argue that melee Fighters are worthless because at high levels archers do so much more damage because they can Full Attack every round.

Both arguments strike me as enormously one-sided, but to each their own, I suppose.


DrDeth wrote:


Yes, he does damage, but it's too easy to block his damage 100%. Heck, one feat and his first shot is always blocked. There's a bunch of spells that make archers cry and DR can make them mostly useless

Yeah man I agree. Ever since they made Crane Wing melee became totally pointless.

In fact dealing damage is totally pointless in Pathfinder...

---

Fighters deal damage. Its what they do.

If you say they 'tank' then there is no hope...

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OP: Is assume you have rapid shot and many shot also? Also Precise shot (and improved)?


@Callarek: In this particular game the DM houseruled that we get stat upgrades every second level, and I put two each into strength and dexterity.

Your feat list is remarkably nearly accurate; you're right that my skill focus was Perception, and most of the feats are correct except for point-blank master, which the archer archetype provides its own version of at 9th level (which is only one higher than I am now). Instead, I have clustered shot.

You're also right that with my full plate I only have a 20ft move speed, but then again, I'm designed to be a long-range stationary 'turret', if you will. Once I've moved (and climbed into a tree/onto a roof/wherever), I'm unlikely to do so again for the rest of the fight.

@bfobar: You and Callarek make a good point about the boots of speed; I'll keep them in mind, since we don't have a wizard casting Haste, unfortunately. I'm definitely on the lookout for a belt of dex now, and having a Speed-ed bow would be terrific, but that seems to be quite dang expensive :P

@Martiln: Yeah, it's not cost-efficient, but it's how it ended up, unfortunately. A higher-plussed bow is certainly on my list.

@Lightbulb: Yeah, I do have all those you mentioned except Improved precise shot, since I'm 3 levels below its prerequisite of BAB +11... sure, once I get enough BAB to get it, I will be.


Efficient quiver or two is a must have for archers. Also, see if you can get a party caster to cast Abbundant Ammunition on your quiver(s), made permanent. Now, all your arrows that are non-magical, will create a "clone" essentially after you draw a real one, for the round. This is particularly deadly/useful to use in conjunction with the many specialty arrows that the book Elves of Golarion put out. There are durable arrows, thistle arrows, bleeding arrows (btw, I understand they do bleeding damage, but one is good for short battles (the cheaper one for 1d6 rounds, the other is better for BBEG and longer drawn out fights; the 360gp bleeding arrow version), pheromone (only good if you have a member, or if you can gain the Scent ability, gives you +2 atk/+dmg with "marked" targets; also, there is a broad arrow. It was on pfsrd20, but it was moved back to 3rd party material. According to them it costs 15sp for (20) arrows. Which sound stupid, considering 20 common arrows cost 1 gp= 10 sp. If anything, make it 15gp and your fine. can't seem to find it anymore, might've been removed. However, it does 1d10 dmg, but due to its larger sized arrow head's weight, it reduces by 10 ft. ....hmm.. what else... oh, Have party wizard cast gravity bow on your bow. now, your 1d8 arrows--> 2d6... and your 1d10 broad arrows become, 2d8!!!!

I'm currently playing a human fighter Archer. currently level 9. He is pretty much on par with you, except for perhaps perception as a kill focus feat. I used the trait that allows for perception to be a class skill and you get a +1 to it, other than that, reactionary- +2 intiative. It's not bad to go first, or early, you can take out the casters early, maybe kill one, before things start up.

Also, the Archer archetype actually does have some battlefield control. Once you get snap shot and improved snap shot (feats), you're threatening out to 15 ft. AND, trick shot for Archers' is within 30 ft. You can trip, sunder, disarm, bull rush, grapple. No more wands for casters. No more weapon for big scary melee guy who comes up behind you to flank.

Hope this helps.


Grizzly: I do have an efficient quiver which I forgot to mention :P Unfortunately we have no magic casters in our party, so Abundant Ammunition and Gravity Bow are, sadly, not available. I'll look into broadhead arrows since they sound awesome...

As for battlefield control, unfortunately the trick shot is only within 30ft, a range where a sniper is unlikely to find himself :P


Just because you don't have a spell caster in your party doesn't mean you can't get command word items that casts Gravity Bow/Abundant Ammo each 5/day. It wouldn't be terribly expensive since they are both first level spells. Find yourself an allied spell caster, or ask your DM if he can put one into a future treasure hoard.


magikot wrote:
Just because you don't have a spell caster in your party doesn't mean you can't get command word items that casts Gravity Bow/Abundant Ammo each 5/day. It wouldn't be terribly expensive since they are both first level spells. Find yourself an allied spell caster, or ask your DM if he can put one into a future treasure hoard.

I'd never heard of these command word items before, so that might explain it :P Now that I know of them, they sound fantastic... I'll see if I can get my hands on a few of these...

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

DrDeth: you're right. This character should kill itself so he can play a wizard instead. Way to answer the OP, man.

OP: The answer is, if you are not experiencing having a hard time hitting things, you are doing it right. Your build is fine. Your feats will ensure you dish out the damage. Be advised that if you have a party bard, your bracers of archery competence bonuses won't stack with the inspire courage competence bonuses--so if you have a bard buddy it's better to sell off the bracers and plus up your bow. Also a belt of incredible dex will help, or a buddy with a wand of cat's grace.


Since were talking about Archer Fighters being up to snuff, Im going to be playing 1 starting Friday. Our adventure is starting at level 5, 20 point buy, and the DM has bestowed us with 12k gp to spend. Here's what I have laid out so far:

Human (Archer Archetype)
Str 14
Dex 19 (bump at level 4)
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 8

Feats:
1. Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
2. Weapon Focus
3. Deadly Aim
4. Weapon Speciailization
5. Iron Will

And now for my main conundrum, gear. Heres what I have in mind for magical gear thus far:
+1 Mithral Shirt
+1 Composite Longbow (with appropriate Str rating)
+2 Belt of Incredible Dexterity
+1 Cloak of Resistance
Efficient Quiver


Cheers, Charlie Bell :) Unfortunately, no party bard either, but definitely looking out for belts of dex.

YrdBrd, what kind of role are you seeing for the archer? Long-range stuff, or more up-close-and-personal shooting? If it's up close, take stuff like Snap Shot (at next level, since it needs +6 BAB). Also, why the Iron Will specifically?


Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, and the other archery feats should be picked up if you don't have them.


Hiya - as an archer player currently, I think I have a little insight here. I've found that if I make it a point to do so, I can stay out of melee and therefore not get hit. It doesn't always go down that way, but that's usually because I choose to move up. My point is that maybe you could trade in some of defense (which isn't absolutely necessary) for more hit-ability (which is where archers run into trouble).

If I could, I would so trade out Point-blank Shot. It's a trap, man! It tricks you into thinking it is a good idea to move up into short range. I've found that I'm much more effective when I stand 60' off from the melee guys.

As a ranged Ranger, my favorite saying [paraphrasing Full Metal Jacket of course] is "I've been on the front line. Can't say I liked it much. Way too dangerous. As it happens, my present duties keep me where I belong. In the rear with the gear."


Loaba: as a sniper, I agree fully with your assessment, but Rapid Shot's requirements list Point Blank Shot, therefore it's kind of a necessity... since Rapid Shot is pretty damn essential, as far as I know.


Kyremi wrote:
YrdBrd, what kind of role are you seeing for the archer? Long-range stuff, or more up-close-and-personal shooting? If it's up close, take stuff like Snap Shot (at next level, since it needs +6 BAB). Also, why the Iron Will specifically?

Not real sure what role Ill be filling other than pin cushioning stuff. I am planning on taking the Snap Shot + Combat Reflexes line for when stuff gets near me though. I want to have all bases covered you know?

I took Iron Will to bring my Will save up to snuff with Fort and Ref. Not counting the Cloak of Resistance, I have +5 to all saves.
Any thoughts on the equipment Ive tentatively selected?


Kyremi wrote:
Loaba: as a sniper, I agree fully with your assessment, but Rapid Shot's requirements list Point Blank Shot, therefore it's kind of a necessity... since Rapid Shot is pretty damn essential, as far as I know.

My bad, man. As a Ranger, I didn't have to meet the requirements for Rapid Shot. As a Fighter, you do.

Dark Archive

It's tough; because an archer will usually be better. Improved Precise is +4 in so many stances; and things like gravity bow up your damage, plus you have so many more skill points. Your stats are also odd for an archer; though we don't know your rolling method, and you don't like 7 stats (8 is as low as you go).


loaba wrote:
Kyremi wrote:
Loaba: as a sniper, I agree fully with your assessment, but Rapid Shot's requirements list Point Blank Shot, therefore it's kind of a necessity... since Rapid Shot is pretty damn essential, as far as I know.
My bad, man. As a Ranger, I didn't have to meet the requirements for Rapid Shot. As a Fighter, you do.

Ah yeah, shiny ranger stuff :D And at the end of the day, at some point I'll find myself in a small room where the enemy is well within 30ft and it may be I'll be thanking the gods I took point blank shot :P

YrdBrd, the only thing I'd add to that pile is a pair of Bracers of Archery... seems you have the rest covered, as far as I can tell...


Thalin wrote:
It's tough; because an archer will usually be better. Improved Precise is +4 in so many stances; and things like gravity bow up your damage, plus you have so many more skill points. Your stats are also odd for an archer; though we don't know your rolling method, and you don't like 7 stats (8 is as low as you go).

About stats - generally speaking I like to appoint a "pump" stat. This is the one that gets "pumped" every 4 levels. Because the game caps (sort of) at 20, my pump stat is always odd. In the case of an Archer, I would unfailingly designate DEX as the pump stat. Everything thing else plays off of that.


I used 20 point buy to get my stats. Started with:

Str 14 (with a composite longbow, gives +2 to damage; also Id like to be able to carry my stuff and have a chance of hitting things in melee if necessary)
Dex 16 with +2 from human and bump at level 4 = 19 (main attack stat and helps determine AC, Ref, and useful for Acrobatics and Stealth)
Con 12
Int 10 (as pointed out, Fighters are on the short end of skills so I didnt want to gimp my skill stat)
Wis 14 (purely for a non-horrific Will)
Cha 8 (a Fighters dump stat. I think 7s are a little cheesy yes)

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Boots of striding and springing or boots of speed can help you get back to standoff range if something manages to close on you. Slippers of spider climbing are the next best thing to flight for avoiding melee.

Other general archer tips:
Make the most of cover to avoid AOs in melee. If you have cover, it can't AO you. In the case of low cover, if you're closer to the cover than it is, it doesn't get cover from you.
Dropping prone is a free action. In some places you can take a full attack then drop prone to gain total cover. Unless you have something that lets you stand from prone as a free action you can't full attack and drop prone every round, but there may be times when it's more important to put yourself out of harm's way than take the next full attack.
Beware evil outsiders: teleport at will will become the thing you hate most.
On that note, a single oil of bless weapon will coat 50 arrows. If 50 arrows doesn't kill it, I hope you brought friends.
Arrows made from special materials are relatively cheap to keep on hand and need not be magical since your bow's magical.
Archers always want a magical quiver that never runs out of arrows. Assuming you fire 6 arrows per round for 13 10-round encounters per level, a type I bag of holding with 750 gp worth of regular arrows (that's 15,000 arrows) will last your entire adventuring career levels 1-20. You won't actually shoot that many arrows.


Charlie Bell wrote:
a type I bag of holding with 750 gp worth of regular arrows (that's 15,000 arrows) will last your entire adventuring career levels 1-20.

This is genius. Or just something I should have given way more thought to.

Another genius idea (not mine) - snag a Pearl of Power for Instant Enemey... wait, that's a Ranger thing... heh :P


Kyremi: I know you said the sniper would never be with the 30ft most combat situations, but for those off chances, your better safe than sorry. When they have chargers, flyers, invisible, etc. enemies coming after you, there will come a time when your face to face with your target. Snipers try to deal a lot of damage in one shot from far away, hiding, have cover, what have you. Archer's ARE NOT SNIPERS. You want to be a sniper, go rogue, take the sniper ability, now up to 30ft you can hide, shoot, then hide again. That's a sniper. For that you would need vital strike feats, to make your only arrow do that much more damage. Archers are machine guns, turrets with freaking lasers on them, 300 movie style legion arrow volley badass types. They put more arrows out, b/c they do more damage that way. Staying far back is fine, but don't strictly rely on distance to be your only savior. You WILL get into close combat, and when you do,pray you get out of it if you can/ want to.

The thing to remember with archers is that range is their best friend, but they are also turrets; well, fighter archers are turrets, zen or sohei are turrets, but with a little more functionality (dimension step, ki arrows, etc.), regardless I still love the fighter archer.

Melee sacrifice rounds of time to get closer to a specific enemy, or to position themselves right, to get flanking. Unlike you, melee fighters actually need a decent chance to not get hit, or even to hit and they will certainly take more damage than you. You don't need point blank master, which is a good thing, b/c when you do get grappled (happened to me last week, vs. a colossal dire crocodile, ouch), or get into melee with one of their chargers or something, you will thankful you don't provoke AoO, and that you had the intelligence to spend to of your many feats on the the snapshot line (up to imp., greater is to really needed) w/ combat reflexes. Each time the enemy leaves a threatened square, they take an AoO, caster does his spell, he takes an AoO. Now, couple this with the fact that certain combat maneuvers can be used in replace of an AoO: grapple, trip, sunder, you could possibly be able to the same thing at ranged, due to your trickshot, which allows you to do the maneuvers with ranged attacks w/ a bow instead of melee. Now, don't forget, your CMB won't be exactly terrible either, to do said trickshot maneuvers. One of the main reasons to go archer style fighter besides the extra feats rom the actual class, is hawkeye ability, freeing up PBM, trickshot (rarely, but useful), and volley- lovely combos with this.) If you do happen to get snap shot &imp. snapshot, w/ combat reflex, I highly... HIGHLY... recommend the feat Pin Down. You essentially prevent your enemies who you threaten.. (now out to 15ft), from making a withdraw move or when they make a 5ft step. So when that melee guy, uses lunge against you, or 5ft steps next to you so they don't provoke, you can prevent them from moving.

Btw, as I mentioned, your CMB won't exactly suck when your using your bow for trickshot. You have a decent str. for your normal CMB.... but for your badass CMB, you're doing fine. Before i continue, you use your dex instead of str. when using your bow, as CMB, replaces your attack roll, with any additional modifiers from feats or abilities. Due to this you use Dex for your CMB b/c you use a bow, which is a ranged weapon, which uses dex for determining attack rolls. Thus, you have a CMB of: Dex + BAB+ expert archer + Wpn. focus, enh., etc. Your des is 18 dex--> 20 racial--> +6 item, 26--> +5 tome of dex--> 31--> +5 level stats bumps= 36 dex...... 36 dex is a +13 mod.

CMB: +46 (+13 dex, +20 bab, +2 wpn. focus, +5 enh., +6 expert archer (if DM allows gloves of dueling, if not it's +4), +1 competence from bracers of archery, grtr, +2 resonate ioun stone ( ioun stones put in a wayfinder have resonate abilities, dusty rose prism, gives you +2 to cmb&cmd,) +1 luck, -4 trickshot)

A +46 CMB at lvl 20, before you roll is not that bad, considering all you need to do is beat their CMD to pull it off, they get no roll. Seeing as how you said your 8th level, your cmb should roughly be... (+8 bab, +5 dex (minimum by 8th lvl), +2 enh. bow, +1 expert archer (assuming no gloves), +1 comp. archer bracers, -4 trickshot)--> since you mentioned low magic, I assume getting some of the other items like ioun stone or luckstone will be harder, still your CMB now is +13. This should be fine vs the casters or squishy guys. since their str. will be lower, and they might not have full bab progression like you have.

There are loads more of little tricks, to get your atk and dmg up, as well as making you a more competent overall fighter. Fighters have the problem with being stereotyped as only doing dmg. Archer's give you more flexibility, and the archer archetype, with certain feats, make you a very well rounded consistent damage dealer with also capabilities of handling battlefield control duties if needed.

Remember, fighter archers are CONSISTENT. Zen archers need ki, rangers need FE to be better dmg wise,, sohei needs ki, paladin needs smite, rogue needs dex denied enemies for SA, and bard archers are too feat intensive. No other class can go into a dungeon crawl for the whole day, come upon dozens of different battles, and still say they do on avg. 200+ each round. All the others classes are situational fighters, they need certain things to go their way so they can really shine. For me, I rather shine at the back, taking out 1-2 enemies a round, and still not be the main target of the BBEG, b/c paladin boy next to me decided to skewer him, he will take more hits than I will.


...Grizzly, that's an awesome post :D I'll just mention that I currently have +11 CMB (so +7 with a trickshot) since my dex is only 17 at this point... something I hope to remedy with a belt of dex very soon.

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