One last question; who has rights for spelljammer? Paizo published the 3rd ed version in the old dungeon/polyhedron magazine. Did they do it for WOTC or did they get the rights? A Pathfinder Spelljammer would be sweet.
I'm sure that WotC took every setting that they could get their hands on when they first aquired D&D. Unfortunately Spelljammer is locked up the the belly of the beast. Maybe as part of the all-inclusive 5e they will do something with the old-school and underused settings. We can always hope.
Like another poster in this thread, I too am keeping the 2e Planescape setting for my Pathfinder game. (Like I did for my 3.x games - I hated the "boutique cosmologies" retcon that came in 3.x.)
Actually, applying the Great Wheel / Hourglass Greyhawk cosmology to all of the campaign settings was a 2eRevised Planescape retcon. Before that, Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance were written assuming distinct and separate cosmologies. (FR even had instances of different cosmologies for different areas on the world map.)
Actually, applying the Great Wheel / Hourglass Greyhawk cosmology to all of the campaign settings was a 2eRevised Planescape retcon. Before that, Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance were written assuming distinct and separate cosmologies. (FR even had instances of different cosmologies for different areas on the world map.)
Is this true? Ed Greenwood always seemed fond of 1e's Manual of the Planes, and even referenced such in the earliest FR writings...
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Actually, applying the Great Wheel / Hourglass Greyhawk cosmology to all of the campaign settings was a 2eRevised Planescape retcon.
With the two booklets from the original 1st edition gray box set in front of me, I'm seeing that the setting is FILLED with references to the cosmology of the great wheel...
Actually, applying the Great Wheel / Hourglass Greyhawk cosmology to all of the campaign settings was a 2eRevised Planescape retcon.With the two booklets from the original 1st edition gray box set in front of me, I'm seeing that the setting is FILLED with references to the cosmology of the great wheel...
Found my old character notes from the game I was remembering. (My primary exposure to the older works in the FR setting.)
I was half right. (And thus half wrong.) It appears the GM was running his campaign with FR having its own wheel. (It was almost 15 years ago, so either I didn't remember or wasn't completely clear on at the time, that it appears he was applying Spelljammer rules first, Planescape second. There may have been only one Sigil, though.)
Though, Mulhorand was apparently written at various points assuming its own isolated cosmology bleeding over from the portals and deities from Egypt. At other times, the Planescape view was used to just say it was the respective deitys' realms in their own corner of the wheel. I don't currently have access to a full FR archive (haven't seen that GM since a mutual friend's wedding 7 years ago), so I cannot say at what point which author said what.
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Mulhorand was apparently written at various points assuming its own isolated cosmology bleeding over from the portals and deities from Egypt.
In 1st edition (and the early portion of 2nd edition), Mulhorand's deities were literally on the Prime Material Plane in the form of "Manifestations" (much more powerful than "Avatars"), and "Incarnations" (which were essentially the same as avatars)...
The reason for this was that the gods were from our Earth and were were not able to leave the prime material nor go back through the portals in which they came, but the cosmology of the outer planes was still the same as everywhere else on Toril (i.e. the great wheel). In fact, when the Gods were able to finally leave Toril, they took their place within the great wheel...
There were a few gods in the Forgotten Realms that had aspects within our Earth AND Toril, such as Sune Firehair/Aphrodite for example. So Mulhorand was not all that unique in that respect...
The only thing Spelljammer added to the mix of the Great Wheel, were the Crystal Spheres and the Phlogiston. Otherwise, the Cosmology of Toril in its entirety was the Great Wheel; from Kara-Tur in the east, to Maztica in the west. Though some had differing ways of organizing their internal politics within the outer plane (the Celestial Bureaucracy for Kara-Tur for example), but they still remained seated within the Great Wheel itself...
Now, Wizards of the Coast DID change the cosmology of the Forgotten Realms with the introduction of 3rd edition in 2000. But it remained the great wheel for the entirety of 1st AND 2nd edition no matter what land/country/kingdom/empire you were in...
WotC still owns the rights, and you'll probably see an IP raping of it just like Dark Sun was, eventually. Yes, I'm feeling harshly about it, but that's how much I hate 4th/present owners of the IP.
Neither -- those settings are for noobs!
Greyhawk or Blackmoor all the way!
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Planescape's only major selling point for me was Tony Diterlizzi (sp?).
Spelljammer, let's see now;
Swashbuckling feel, check.
Cannon and personal fireams, check.
Ptolemaic astronomical structure, check.
Cool new aliens in space (Giff, Dowhar, Reigar, Hadozee [Yazarians], Syllex [Sathar], Rastipede [Vrusk], Plasmoids [Draslite], Xichil){and yes I am aware that 4 of the above were reskins of the old Star Frontiers aliens, and I have marked them accordingly}, check.
Sleazy space merchants (the Arcane, later Mercane of Planescape - helms, the 'used car dealers of arcane space; and the Neogi, slave merchants extrprdinaire), check.
Space Whales (Kindori), check.
Space Gypsies (the Aperusa), check.
and most important (and IMO woefully lacking from planescape) ties to classic D&D tropes in space (Mind-Flayers, Beholders, haughty elves, genocidal vicious orc-kin (scro)), check.
The winner for me is Spelljammer hands down.
This is of course merely because of the initial rules of the debate, my preferred setting is truthfully Ravenloft, with Spelljammer a close second.
and all three are of course infinitely superior to Greyhawk :-) , at least as it has been treated by every edition since 1st Ed. And these treatments are still far superior to ANY version of the Forgotten Realms.