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Sage Sorcerer Bloodline (Ultimate magic) feat requirements


Rules Questions


Hello, I can't find any similar post so I was wondering.
A Sage (p. 72 Ultimate magic) uses INT as a primary ability modifier for his spellcasting abilities and effects related to bloodlines instead of CHA. However most if not all sorcerer exclusive feats require a high (escpecially in higher levels) CHA score. Now this bloodline substitutes CHA with INT only for spells per day, spells save DC and bloodline powers.
Is this an oversight or is a sage sorcerer left out of those feats unless he keeps two very high scores, one of which offers him nothing more but an absolute minimum for feats requirements? This question extends to other ability substitution bloodlines (like Empyreal) as well.

Andoran

It does appear that Sage and Empyreal are both out of luck as far as it goes. It wouldn't be game breaking, however, to allow it.


Sage Sorcerer FAQ entry.


It looks like the feats prerequisites aren't affected. That is the trade off. By focusing on Intelligence or Wisdom, you open up other options for your character.

Shadow Lodge

Looks to be a simple trade off
Being able to cast off Int or Wis is very useful compared (More skills or higher will save) to Cha (mentioned feat reqs and some cha based skills)


More skills or an increase in Will saves seems like a hard trade off for not qualifying for your class primary feats :S. Casters that already cast by those ability scores face no such restrictions and the point of a bloodline is to empower the class, not weaken it.

Shadow Lodge

I'm not to sure what feats you're thinking about. I could be wrong, but i just did a search though the PRD and found 2 feats that have sorcerer levels and charisma scores as prerequisites, Create Sanguine Elixir and Sorcerous Bloodstrike, neither which i'd would qualify as 'class primary feats'. You could be thinking about the Eldritch Heritage feat line as well, which while useful, every sorcerer doesn't NEED them.

As I said, trade offs, using wisdom to cast? cool having a 15+ will save is nothing to sneeze at and using int to cast. Hello skill points


The feats in d20PFSRD that have a Cha requirement are:

Haunted Gnome
Adept Channel
Andoren Falconry
Arcane Talent
Childlike
@Create Sanguine Elixir
@Eldrich Heritage Chain
@Evolved Familiar (Needs same Int as Cha)
Extra Gnome Magic
Fox Shape
Free Spirit
Gnome Trickster
Greater Mercy
Groundling
Leaf Singer
Noble Scion
Rhetorical Flourish
Selective Channeling
Sociable
@Sorcerous Bloodstrike
Spellsong
@Spontaneous Metafocus
Stone Singer
Taunt
Ultimate Mercy
Voice of the Sibyl
War Singer

Only a very small number of those feats have anything to do with being a sorcerer, and none of them are remotely fundemental to playing a sorcerer. (In fact, most are about being a gnome, bard, face, cleric or paladin.) Even if I was building a regular sorcerer, it's entirely possible I would take zero of them anyway. And I certainly wouldn't be sad to miss out on them in exchange for triple skill points or two+ free copies of Iron Will.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Hmm, of those @feats, 3 require cha 13, one requires 15, and one chain requires higher.

My PFS sage sorcerer has a 13 cha and (IIRC) a 17 int. Doesn't seem that big a deal.


Akachi wrote:
More skills or an increase in Will saves seems like a hard trade off for not qualifying for your class primary feats :S. Casters that already cast by those ability scores face no such restrictions and the point of a bloodline is to empower the class, not weaken it.

Let's be fair here. It's not meant to empower. It's meant to change it without loss of power. It shouldn't make it stronger.


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It's already the case that the primary cost of choosing the stat-changing bloodlines is the thematic and opportunity costs. If sorcerers could freely choose their casting stat, it'd probably be pretty rare that you'd choose Charisma, from an optimization standpoint.

Shadow Lodge

Akachi wrote:
More skills or an increase in Will saves seems like a hard trade off for not qualifying for your class primary feats :S. Casters that already cast by those ability scores face no such restrictions and the point of a bloodline is to empower the class, not weaken it.

You lose out on some possible class options, and gain some other options and can take advantage of synergies with races/ classes/ etc that you wouldn't be able to otherwise. If you don't have a good reason for taking sage (race/ multiclassing/ desire to make a skills monkey character) then you are almost certainly better off sticking with the core sorcerer.


Akachi wrote:

Hello, I can't find any similar post so I was wondering.

A Sage (p. 72 Ultimate magic) uses INT as a primary ability modifier for his spellcasting abilities and effects related to bloodlines instead of CHA. However most if not all sorcerer exclusive feats require a high (escpecially in higher levels) CHA score. Now this bloodline substitutes CHA with INT only for spells per day, spells save DC and bloodline powers.
Is this an oversight or is a sage sorcerer left out of those feats unless he keeps two very high scores, one of which offers him nothing more but an absolute minimum for feats requirements? This question extends to other ability substitution bloodlines (like Empyreal) as well.

As people already mentioned, Sorcerer/Cha specific feats aren't an issue as there aren't that many in existence. However, remember that the text says "you use your Int, rather than Cha, to determine all class features", then lists a few examples. You seem to think that the listed examples are the only class features that are affected. That means you use Int to determine spells known as well, since spells are a class feature and spells per day and spells known are normally determined by Cha.

Andoran

Sage and Empyreal also lose out on any Blodline Arcana other than swapping their casting stat, and many of those are actually pretty good.

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