Need help on making a decent, heavy hitting Barbarian / Fighter, please!


Advice

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Okay, so I had a Barbarian classed character in 3.5, but the Overhand Chop is now only a Fighter Archetype ability, not a Barbarian feat or special abilily.

I've been wanting to bring my guy back for a while now, but still wanted to stay as true to him, possible. This means mixing Barbarian and Fighter.

Would it be a good idea to take 7 levels Fighter and 13 levels Barb? Would it be better to go 15 levels Fighter and 5 levels Barb? If so, which combination and how can I make him have a much higher survival rate?

I'm thinking of mixing Titan Mauler with Two-Handed Fighter, so I can use large weapons.

If I could have the Two-Handed Fighter as a Barbarian Archetype, it would have been great, but I'm not going to even bother asking my DM about it, as I want to stick to the rules.

At the same time, I wouldn't mind having a broken character at least once in my life, so I'd like this guy to be either broken or heavily optimised.

I'd really like him to have Overhand Chop and Backswing, but don't know if the extra 8 levels of Fighter is worth it, just for Greater Power Attack, when I might be able to optimise better with less levels.

Have you guys got any suggestions? :/

Thanks very much!


Bandavaar the Brave wrote:

Okay, so I had a Barbarian classed character in 3.5, but the Overhand Chop is now only a Fighter Archetype ability, not a Barbarian feat or special abilily.

I've been wanting to bring my guy back for a while now, but still wanted to stay as true to him, possible. This means mixing Barbarian and Fighter.

Would it be a good idea to take 7 levels Fighter and 13 levels Barb? Would it be better to go 15 levels Fighter and 5 levels Barb? If so, which combination and how can I make him have a much higher survival rate?

If I could have the Two-Handed Fighter as a Barbarian Archetype, it would have been great, but I'm not going to even bother asking my DM about it, as I want to stick to the rules.

At the same time, I wouldn't mind having a broken character at least once in my life, so I'd like this guy to be either broken or heavily optimised.

I'd really like him to have Overhand Chop and Backswing, but don't know if the extra 8 levels of Fighter is worth it, just for Greater Power Attack, when I might be able to optimise better with less levels.

Have you guys got any suggestions? :/

Thanks very much!

First off, if all you want is Overhand Chop and Backswing, you can accomplish that by only taking 3 levels of Fighter and having the Sash of the War Champion Equipped.

The real question is, how many Rage Powers do you want vs. How much of the Fighter Advantage do you want? 10 levels of Barbarian can unlock Pounce if you take the Beast Totem Rage Powers, allowing you to full attack at the end of a charge while Raging, and give Greater Rage. 11 Levels of Fighter will give you Weapon Focus/Greater,Weapon Specialization, Weapon Training +2(instead of +1 at 5th) and Greater Power Attack(via the Sash). Also, what kind of 2H Weapon do you like to use?


I only read the topic of the thread and had to post. I wrote this one up the other day. 4 Fighter(brawler) 4 Barbarian(brutal pugalist). Try and get your hands on some vicious spiked armor and grappling feats. Enemies will beg for mercy trust me.

Scarab Sages

I currently have a fighter in a campaign I'm GMing that has the Two Handed Fighter archtype. He plans on using the Vital Strike tree and the numbers he has crunched for high level are staggering, despite getting only one attack per round. As it is, he uses Power Attack constantly and does the most damage in the party -- and takes it almost as well as the tank. Perhaps you should think about sticking to one class or the other. Barbarian has a different flavor but can dish it out with rages, as you surely know.

How many levels you go into fighter depends on how long the campaign will last. If you are sure you'll get to 20, then going Ftr3 lets you get Tireless Rage. If you take Ftr4 and Weapon Specialization, that Barbarian feature is lost. If the campaign is shorter than 20 levels, you'll have to decide how many class features you're willing to sacrifice for the Overhand Chop or specialization. The Backswing ability would be terrifying in conjunction with rage, but requires Ftr7 and limits your barbarian class features considerably. In the end, it's up to you as to what to sacrifice and what to keep. I think I might just ignore the optimization and go straight fighter or barbarian. Of course, many people would say that going straight classed IS optimization...


It'll be a Greatsword. Would have been nice to go the Hammer route, but as I'm trying to stay true to my character concept, it'll be a Greatsword.

The concept is a Barbaric Knight who may get on with people, but goes absolutely crazy with Rage in any fight.

The Sash sounds awesome, but I fear that's a rare item which most traders won't have. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm trying to work things out from a level 1 character, so I'm limited to the character creation process to realise this build.

I'd quite like Pounce, but the Weapon Specialisation feats are also really decent, so it's a hard choice to make. I think I'd like a healthy balance of the two so I can have a high attack bonus and a high damage output, maybe having Barbarian as my base class for the HP over AC, but I'd still like some kind of metal armour for my guy. Maybe a chain shirt would do.

I'd prioritise Strength and Constitution over everything else.

The campaign will go up to level 16 or 18 as we normally do Adventure Path's.


Quote:
First off, if all you want is Overhand Chop and Backswing, you can accomplish that by only taking 3 levels of Fighter and having the Sash of the War Champion Equipped.

I believe the Sash only scales the Armor Training and Bravery Class Features. If you have an Archetype that doesn't have those abilities, in lieu of others, it doesn't do much for you, the Sash doesn't scale Armor Training and Bravery OR any ability gained in place of those, just Armor Training/Bravery. If you had an Archtypes that MODIFIED how Armor Training or Bravery worked, the Sash would apply, but if you are losing those abilities the Sash wouldn't do anything. RAW, yada, yada.

I would say that given what you are going for, just taking enough Fighter levels for Overhand Chop will work... Which basically increases your single attack damage. You also get Heavy Armor Proficiency, a Feat, and some other side benefits.

Check out the Alias 'Hyundai Headsmasher' that is linked to my profile, that pursued exactly such a build (combined with stuff to make a Sorc/DragonDisciple) to an extemely effective outcome... Check that Alias' post history to see how he ended up winning a 4 vs 4 arena battle vs. equivalent power PCs (=APL+4 or +5) AFTER everybody else on my team was affected by Stinking Cloud + Black Tentacles combo before they could act (his Fort Save and CMD were sky high, so those didn't affect him). The Single Attack Crit against their Witch seemed like the crux of turning the battle, and Overhand Chop kicked in for that (not sure if it was needed).

EDIT: Note that build was made with only Core + APG, no Ultimate Combat stuff.

If you went in for one more level of Fighter, you would get Weapon Training, and be able to use the Gloves of Dueling to increase that... But personally, I say if you are so in need of big numbers then you have already lost the game :-) Boosting your single attacks (Overhand Chop) is boosting where you are relatively more weak, you can get bigger numbers for Full Attacks, but you really shouldn't need any extra help there, certainly not with APG/UltCombat Rage Powers and Feats.

My personal fave Barbarian Archetype: Scarred Rager, the Rage Cycling from Level 2 thing is oh so nice, and even NOT using that (which I didn't notice right away) I just love it anyways cuz it oozes flavor. The (not-Scarred-Rager-compatable) Brutal Pugilist Archetype's 'take AoOs vs Grappling even if they don't normally provoke' is very nice versus certain types of opponents. But the Titan Mauler is itself pretty nice, not even just for the bigger weapons, but the evading Reach part is great...


Quandary - Would it not be better to go with 7 levels Fighter, so I can use Backswing on all of my attacks?

I was thinking of doing that with the Invulnerable Rager or Titan Mauler Barbarian, so I could have a character that can wield either a large weapon to deal more damage with every attack, or have much higher Damage Reduction.

I'm going to read over your character now. :)

Edit: Also, would evade reach prevent someone from being able to attack me, assuming they're a medium sized creature with a standard 5 foot reach?

Assuming I reach level 17 eventually, I was thinking 7 levels Fighter and 10 levels Barbarian could be good.

10 Barb levels would allow me to gain 5 rage powers (plus, I think there was a feat that gave you more rage powers) and 7 of Fighter would give me Backswing.

The idea for this guy is that he may begin as a Greatsword wielding Fighter, but he has a really short temper and as he levels up, his primal instincts will come out more, which is where the higher amount of Barbarian levels come in. He'll become obsessed with dealing damage, so when he reaches Barb level 3, he'd be able to wield a large weapon, though I don't know what the penalty would be for this.

I'm allowed content from every Paizo book, so Core, APG, UM and UC. :)

Liberty's Edge

Martiln wrote:
First off, if all you want is Overhand Chop and Backswing, you can accomplish that by only taking 3 levels of Fighter and having the Sash of the War Champion Equipped.

This is incorrect by RAW (and likely RAI). Sash of the war champion only modifies the abilities it says it does. If you replace those abilities, it does nothing for you.

As to what is best: Currently straight Barbarian to 20 is a beast. It gets great saves (superstitious and human favored class bonus), pounce, and Come And Get Me (CAGM). (All of which can be gained up through 12.) Optimally, you wouldn't slow down access to any of those abilities.

After that, a single level dip into oracle for the lame curse gets you rage cyclling. That then leaves you 7 levels for fighter if you so choose.

Edit: Evade reach only lasts through your turn, it won't help you when you need it (ie. on their turn.) Its designed to be used against creatures with reach so you can approach without suffering attacks of opportunity.

Also, scarred rager does not allow you to rage cycle, 1 round of fatigue is enough to kill rage cycling.

Also, Jotungrip doesn't let you use a bigger greatsword, it only allows you to use a great sword one handed. Massive weapons doesn't allow you to use a larger two handed weapon either, it just reduces the penalty. (Sadly. Yet another archetype that doesn't work as intended. You'd have to gain the ability to use it elsewhere then use massive weapons to reduce the penalty for using it.)


ShadowcatX wrote:
Also, Jotungrip doesn't let you use a bigger greatsword, it only allows you to use a great sword one handed. Massive weapons doesn't allow you to use a larger two handed weapon either, it just reduces the penalty. (Sadly. Yet another archetype that doesn't work as intended. You'd have to gain the ability to use it elsewhere then use massive weapons to reduce the penalty for using it.)

That's pretty weird. I'd have thought the way it's worded would allow you to use them and then lower the penalty by 1. There isn't currently anything in the game that says you can use larger weapons, so if it doesn't work in that way, it's fairly useless. :/

High Strength would surely allow you to wield a larger weapon alone, by logic at least.

Anyway, I was thinking about going with these stats:

Str: 18 (16, +2 Race)
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Wis: 10
Int: 10
Cha: 14

Feats at level 1 as a Human Fighter:

Intimidating Prowess (for Intimidate), Improved Initiative, Power Attack or Weapon Focus


Take your first 2 levels as Barbarian, then you can use your odd level feats for rage powers (that aren't limited by Barbarian level) and your fighter levels for regular feats. Definitely stick to Invulnerable rager archetype as you can't properly be a raging god of battle without ignoring some blows.


I'M INCREDIBLE! wrote:
Take your first 2 levels as Barbarian, then you can use your odd level feats for rage powers (that aren't limited by Barbarian level) and your fighter levels for regular feats. Definitely stick to Invulnerable rager archetype as you can't properly be a raging god of battle without ignoring some blows.

How would that work? :/

Even if I did that, I'd be 3 levels Barb and 1 Ftr, so still wouldn't have access to the Rage Powers at every odd level, because a Barb level 3 gets Trap Sense, not a new Rage Power. That's 4th level.

I also thought if I were a Fighter for the first two levels and every even level there after, then a Barb every odd level until I stop with the Fighter levels, would I not still get a feat every level up to level 13? Because a Fighter gets a Feat at every level, but as far as I know, characters get an additional feat every odd level anyway, so would being a Barb at every odd level not give me a feat? Or is it strictly down to every odd Class level, meaning I'd still only get 14 feats?

Liberty's Edge

Bandavaar the Brave wrote:
That's pretty weird. I'd have thought the way it's worded would allow you to use them and then lower the penalty by 1. There isn't currently anything in the game that says you can use larger weapons, so if it doesn't work in that way, it's fairly useless. :/

The ability isn't entirely worthless, you can wield a large long sword in two hands, and reduce the penalty from that. But pretty much everyone wants to wield a bigger great sword and the ability does not allow that.

Someone has redone the archetype here on the forums, you might look into that.

What incredible is saying is burn your non-fighter feats all on extra rage power (which you unlock at Barbarian 2). And fighters only get a class feat every even level (and at first level). They don't get a class feat every level.


Ah, got it!

These are the Rage Powers I think I'm settled on:

Powerful Blow, Renewed Vigor, Strength Surge, Roused Anger, Come and Get me, Beast Totem lesser, beast totem, beast totem greater, increased damage reduction, increased damage reduction, Unexpected Strike, Renewed Vitality, Crippling Blow.

I'll take a Rage Power with every Barbarian Feat I get. :)

My Focus will be on Sundering, so I'll get Improved Sunder and Greater Sunder with my Fighter Levels. :)

The Exchange

First off, if all you want is Overhand Chop and Backswing, you can accomplish that by only taking 3 levels of Fighter and having the Sash of the War Champion Equipped.
The real question is, how many Rage Powers do you want vs. How much of the Fighter Advantage do you want? 10 levels of Barbarian can unlock Pounce if you take the Beast Totem Rage Powers, allowing you to full attack at the end of a charge while Raging, and give Greater Rage. 11 Levels of Fighter will give you Weapon Focus/Greater,Weapon Specialization, Weapon Training +2(instead of +1 at 5th) and Greater Power Attack(via the Sash). Also, what kind of 2H Weapon do you like to use?

ok first off please read

This bright red strip of cloth, stitched with images of a cheering crowd throwing garlands toward a chariot, fits across the wearer's shoulders and then diagonally down his chest to reach his opposite hip. The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features.

this does not increase anything except saves vs fear and armor training. since there is no comma between the words "bravery" and the words "class features" this item will not allow you to gain access to any other higher level fighter abilities.

the rest are all good points. i would also consider which is the highest level rage power you want. you can always take the feat "extra rage power" to gain extra lower level rage powers. and with the multitude of bonus feats from fighter you can just user your normal feats to take extra rage power and use your fighter bonus feats for the combat goodies.

The Exchange

a great post from another user i came across some tiem on a board about learning to optimize. if i may resubmit it for your enjoyment and practical application.
Step one: get a pony.
Step two: pick a trick any trick
Step three: teach it to pony.
step four through 1 million:make your pony do its one trick over and over again.

this is useful for people trying to min/max as much sarcastically as it is practically. if you want your fighter/barb to destory people in one hit then go 3 levels to get double strength to 1 attack.. why worry about the subsequent attacks they will be dead right. then stack feats that make sure your one attack hits and does tons of damage. i like rage powers that up my damage. there will be a healer your life is his problem after all. vital strikes all the way. power attack all you can. bigger weapon MUCH BIGGER WEAPONS. get a reach weapon like a glaive at 1d10 and make it REALLY BIG huge size is like 3d6. walk up to someone and kersplash there face into nothing. or if you want to optimize dpr use a nice 2 handed weapon avoid vital strikes like the plage and just pounce forever as a 10th level barbarian. u could use 2 weapons do the 2 weapon line with the rending and all its nastiness. choose style feats like dragon style so that you can charge through difficult terrain. become a whirling dervish of death with a 1st level monk of many styles and use the first dragon style feat and all teh panther style feats. and charge everywhere and hit anyone who tries to hit you. u leave a line of destruction in your wake and prove that you are a force of nature. personally i would love to see this

monk (master of many styles) 1 (panther full progression, dragon 1)
barbarian (pick one) beast totem rage powers 10

this will allow you to pick one person charge that one person hit them tons of times and anyone who tries to hit you on the way there provokes a retaliatory strike you resolve before they get to take there swing at you. this does require you to this has a very feral focus and i am aware it is no where near optimized. i am just pointing out that if you pick a focus just keep plugging away until you are there.


That sounds incredibly awesome, but I've gone with this (for the minute at least):
Focus on Sundering

Feats and Rage Powers:

Level 1/Fighter: Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Weapon Focus
Level 2/Fighter: Intimidating Prowess
Level 3/Barbarian: Cleave
Level 4/Fighter: Improved Sunder
Level 5/Barbarian: Extra Rage Power - Roused Anger, Strength Surge
Level 6/Fighter: Greater Sunder
Level 7/Barbarian: Extra Rage Power - Renewed Vigor, Powerful Blow
Level 8/Fighter: Raging Vitality
Level 9/Barbarian: Extra Rage Power - Renewed Vitality, Reckless Abandon
Level 10/Fighter: Great Cleave
Level 11/Barbarian: Hammer The Gap, Beast Totem (Lesser)
Level 12/Fighter: Raging Brutality
Level 13/Barbarian: Improved Critical, Beast Totem
Level 14/Barbarian:
Level 15/Barbarian: Extra Rage Power - Increased Damage Reduction, Unexpected Strike
Level 16/Barbarian:
Level 17/Barbarian: Extra Rage Power - Beast Totem (Greater), Crippling Blow
Level 18/Barbarian:
Level 19/Barbarian: Extra Rage Power - Come and Get Me, Increased Damage Reduction
Level 20/Barbarian:

Favoured Class: Barbarian - To show his more primal, stronger side

Armour: Chainmail - To show his Fighter side. Hopefully turn into Adamantine
Weapon: Great Sword

Not sure of the damage output, but adding Con to my Strength with Overhand Chop, Backswing and Rage seemed like a great idea!

The plan's also to up my Con and Str another +1 each with my level up points. :)

Oh and due to Fast Movement (I still get to keep it with Invulnerable Rager!), when wearing Medium Armour, would my Speed be at 30feet? I'm assuming it would and not 40feet.

Also, how can I use a Large Weapon, because that'd be awesome, even though it's only one size category up.

Edit: It appears that I can use a large Bastard Sword instead of a Great Sword, dealing 2d8 damage, instead of the 1d10 (or 2d6 of a Great Sword) and there appear to be no rules preventing you from wielding a large weapon.....

Is this worth getting rid of Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialisation? The mathematics would suggest so.

It also seems as though Come and Get Me works without needing Combat Reflexes, suggesting that as soon as you leave yourself open, you can attack any number of opponents with an AoO that strike you. Hopefully this is correct as I have no Dex bonus and leaving yourself open with a +4 to hit against you is pretty harsh!


It still consumes AoOs. If you have no dex or combat reflexes, Come and Get Me is worthless to you.

I would strongly advise you to either pick a single class or merely dip one class or the other for 1-3 levels MAX, rest in your "main class." True near-evenly split multiclassing is very, very, very subpar in Pathfinder.

If you want Come and Get Me, go Barb. Otherwise, go Fighter, maybe dip barb a little. Maybe take Wild Rager archetype to expand your few rage rounds per day. DC scales with barb level, so as long as you only dip, you can mostly keep it under control.

Main differences between Fighter and Barb: Fighter has better AC, attack, and damage; Barbarian has better DR (Invulnerable Rager) and Come and Get Me, and yes the CaGM rage power is worth its own "pro." If you don't plan to build around CaGM, there's not really much point in playing a Barbarian over a Fighter for you.


Well, how's this then?

Str: 18 (16, +2 Race)
Dex: 13
Con: 14
Wis: 10
Int: 10
Cha: 12

I'd put my first level up point into Dex, swap out my level 1 Weapon Focus for Combat Reflexes and then put everything else entirely into Strength.

I haven't ever played a multi-classed character before and I like the theme/concept of this guy, so I still plan to keep the Class levels the same, but am open to suggestions for improving it.

With a 14 Dex at level 4, I could leave myself open to 3 targets and I feel that's a relatively decent amount of enemies to gain attacks from. :)

It means my Charisma is lower for Intimidating foe, but with Intimidating Prowess at level 2, I'd have two ranks in it, 1 Charisma mod on it, 3 points for it being a Class skill and 4 points on it from my Strength, meaning I'd have a +10 on Intimidate.


I guess it's fine. I'd drop cha to 10 to put dex to 14, but whatever. A small cha bonus won't matter much in the long run compared to str / ranks / etc...

What race are you? Half-Orc gets racial +2 intimidate, but Half-Elf can get free Skill Focus for a +3 and later becomes +6, so they're actually better for someone focused on intimidating.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:

I guess it's fine. I'd drop cha to 10 to put dex to 14, but whatever. A small cha bonus won't matter much in the long run compared to str / ranks / etc...

What race are you? Half-Orc gets racial +2 intimidate, but Half-Elf can get free Skill Focus for a +3 and later becomes +6, so they're actually better for someone focused on intimidating.

Human, because I need every feat I can get. :)

Hmm, you know what...I'll get rid of Charisma and ramp up my Dex to a 14 because Intimidating Prowess still allows me to use my Strength as Intimidate and even without that one Charisma, my guy will still have an Intimidate of 27 at level 20.

+1 to my AC and CMD it is then. After that, I'll focus entirely on Strength. :)

Edit - These are my Skill and Sunder Scores at level 20:

Spoiler:

Skills:

Level 1: Swim +8, Intimidate +4
Level 2: Swim +9, Intimidate +9
Level 3: Swim +10, Intimidate +10, Climb +8, Perception +4
Level 4: Swim +11, Intimidate +11
Level 5: Swim +12, Intimidate +12, Climb +9, Perception +5
Level 6: Swim +13, Intimidate +13
Level 7: Swim +14, Intimidate +14, Climb +10, Perception +6
Level 8: Swim +15, Intimidate +15
Level 9: Swim +16, Intimidate +16, Climb +11, Perception +7
Level 10: Swim +17, Intimidate +17
Level 11: Swim +18, Intimidate +18, Climb +12, Perception +8
Level 12: Swim +19, Intimidate +19
Level 13: Swim +20, Intimidate +20, Climb +13, Perception +9
Level 14: Swim +21, Intimidate +21, Climb +14, Perception +10
Level 15: Swim +22, Intimidate +22, Climb +15, Perception +11
Level 16: Swim +23, Intimidate +23, Climb +16, Perception +12
Level 17: Swim +24, Intimidate +24, Climb +17, Perception +13
Level 18: Swim +25, Intimidate +25, Climb +18, Perception +14
Level 19: Swim +26, Intimidate +26, Climb +19, Perception +15
Level 20: Swim +27, Intimidate +27, Climb +20, Perception +16

Sunder at level 1: Sunder +5
Sunder at level 5: Sunder +16
Without Strength Surge: Sunder +11

Sunder at level 20: +6 Str, +20 BAB, +4 Feats, 13 Level = 43
Without Strength Surge: 30

Damage Output at level 20:
Level 20 Damage:

20/15/10/5
26/21/16/11

Damage: 2d6 + 6Str, 6hammer the gap, 1weapon training, 18 Power Attack, 6 overhand chop on a single attack (on all

attacks but the first for backswing) = 12, 18, 24, 25, 43, 49

= 49 damage on a single attack
= 43, 49, 49, 49 = 190 damage on a full round attack

While Raging: 2d6 +9str, 6 hammer, 1weapon training, 18 Power Attack, 9 overhand chop on a single attack (on all

attacks but the first for backswing) = 12, 21, 27, 28, 46, 55

= 55 damage on a single attack
= 46, 55, 55, 55 = 211 damage on a full round attack

Hopefully that's pretty good. The numbers seem fairly high to me. :)

With such a high Sunder bonus, anything I can't hit, I'll attempt to Sunder. A boss can't do much without a weapon or armour and that's when I won't have to worry about whether I can hit it or not! :D


Is the logic to use Vital Strike to do more damage when moving? Would Pounce not be better for that?


Nope. I'm not actually going to get Vital Strike. I'll be getting Pounce at level 17....which is a bit late, I know, but would make the final fight of the campaign pretty epic if I got that far!


I totally agree with Stream on this one and just dipping into another class for a level or two instead of 30%/70% or 50/50, you'll be a better optimized character that way.

I made a character using the wild rager archetype for 2 levels (to get a rage power - wild rager) then went into fighter using the 2h fighter archetype to get the big damage dealers like overhand chop and backswing. I personally went the other direction with the concept of my character he went from being a wild rager to a fighter, but still rages in combat for 10 rounds/day (unless going into his wild rage which doesn't take up any rage rounds, but can attack allies if they are close to him). My character isn't fully optimized for damage as I'm going to be doing some teamwork things with the monk in the group, but he can dish it out like crazy when he's power attacking and raging with a 2h weapon.

The other thing you have to think about with a fighter is all of the bonus feats you get. To really shine with a barbarian you should be going all in for it up to level 17 so that you can rage hop, or if you want to rage hop earlier you'd have to go the cheesy route to and take a 1 level dip in lame oracle.

Don't pay attention to the other guys who are talking about the Sash of the War Champion as they are taking too many liberties with it and it doesn't work the way they think it does adding to your other fighter abilities. It only scales the Armor Training and Bravery Class Features period. Check it out here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/sash- of-the-war-champion

Anyhow, let us know what you decide and above all else, have fun!


I think I'm actually pretty much set with my stats above. :D

I swapped out Raging Brutality for Bolstered Resilience, will be wearing medium armour as my Fast Movement ensures I can still move 30 feet per round and will be able to get a DR of 12 once per rage at my 12th Barbarian level.

It's a shame I don't get Tireless Rage this way, but you have to sacrifice things with multi-classing and I think my damage output is pretty good!

Without Overhand Chop and Backswing, I feel my damage would be a lot lower, although I'm tempted to go with weapon specialisation instead of hammer the gap because it deals more damage and is actually better, due to the fact I'll only have four attacks per round at the higher levels.

Still, with a +43 or 45 on Sunder attempts by level 20, I'd be an absolute sundering beast. I mean I haven't once ever used a sundering character, so I don't know how easy it is to sunder something, but the bonus to sunder alone is incredibly high!

I think all I want to do now is swap out Hammer the Gap for Weapon Specialisation and then I'm done.

In the long run, I don't think it's worth getting a large longsword, is it? It'd be nice and it doesn't look as though you get any penalties for wielding a large weapon, but a Greatsword is still not bad.

Liberty's Edge

4 levels of weaponmaster fighter and gloves of dueling gets you weapon focus, weapon spec, and a spare bonus feat (extra rage, maybe?) along with weapon training for +4 to hit and +5 to damage. Not too shabby.


I realised if I'd have gone with my previous build, I'd have had hardly any rounds of Rage at all, so I've gotten rid of Intimidating Prowess, Roused Anger and Hammer the Gap and now have my build as shown below:

Feats and Rage Powers:
Feats and Rage Powers:

Level 1/Fighter: Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes
Level 2/Fighter: Improved Sunder
Level 3/Barbarian: Cleave
Level 4/Fighter: Great Cleave
Level 5/Barbarian: Extra Rage, Strength Surge
Level 6/Fighter: Greater Sunder
Level 7/Barbarian: Extra Rage Power - Renewed Vigor, Powerful Blow
Level 8/Fighter: Raging Vitality, Weapon Training
Level 9/Barbarian: Extra Rage Power - Renewed Vitality, Reckless Abandon
Level 10/Fighter: Improved Critical
Level 11/Barbarian: Extra Rage, Beast Totem (Lesser)
Level 12/Fighter: Bolstered Resilience
Level 13/Barbarian: Extra Rage, Beast Totem
Level 14/Barbarian:
Level 15/Barbarian: Extra Rage Power - Increased Damage Reduction, Unexpected Strike
Level 16/Barbarian:
Level 17/Barbarian: Extra Rage Power - Beast Totem (Greater), Crippling Blow
Level 18/Barbarian: Greater Rage
Level 19/Barbarian: Extra Rage Power - Come and Get Me, Increased Damage Reduction
Level 20/Barbarian:

Without any stat boosting items, I'll have 24 rounds of Rage by level 20. :)


I suggest at some point tossing Furious Focus in and then at level 11 grabbing Dreadful Carnage. It really is a very good feat. I would drop Bolstered Resilience, without Exhaustion or Fatigue immunity, it's really not worth it. Cleave sucks, IMO, especially once you start getting iterative attacks. I would also reconsider the sunder line...destroying treasure is bad, and leaving it with the broken condition is a pretty minor debuff for the time it might take to smash something.

Just trying to save you feats. :)

How are you taking Raging Vitality at 8? You have 5 Fighter levels at that point - no bonus feat. And level 8 is not a feat level.

Side note: If you can get potions of Invigorate (level 1 bard spell) or better yet, a bard to cast it on you, you can hop in and out of rage as much as you want w/o getting fatigued and get more use out of those 1/rage powers like Strength Surge.

The Exchange

if all you want is a barbarian feeling character that can dish out tons of damage with no spell access and thats it. why are you multiclassing at all. just play a barbarian yeah feats are great and fun but really with a rage power every other level you can make up for having less feats. just play straight through. if you are wanting to optimize then play a level 1 oracle level x barbarian with the water sight revelation and the lame cures. have your party caster drop solid fog on you while you fight stuff you can see they cannot and you are immediately a bad ass. no more fog stopping you from kicking ass either. you lose 10 foot movement speed but can rage cycle from the begining. just pick a path and stick with it. if you want to sunder take it all the way up to sundering magic. if you want to do massive damage do the beast totem and pounce. if you want to make a hard to kill barbarian use the acf and take the appropriate rage powers. the only 3 level dip i would even consider would be a 3 level dip in two handed fighter for overhand chop. but still thats a rage power or 2 you lose and u put off getting greater rage.
one more thing pick a race with the favored class feature 1 extra round of rage per level. thats HUGE. and take the berserker of the society trait for 3 extra rounds. there is a feat that lets you burn 3 rounds of rage as a swift action to add your con mod to your attack. and when 2 handed attacking add 1.5 to your attack. while raging with items or spells a 24 con is pretty easy to get later in game so thats 7 or 10 damage to every attack that round. sorry i forgot the feat name. but in the end losing levels of barbarian for anything else costs you rage powers, roudns of rage, weakens the rage powers you have, and makes you take longer to accesss the rage powers you want. so a straight barbarian is your best bet. and if there is no caster to help you avoid the fatigue then take 1 level dip of oracle.


I was going to say because I have a feat at every level as a Fighter, but just realised you don't. So, at level 4, 8 and 12, I shouldn't have a feat at all.

Eurgh, it gets confusing.

I got Bolstered Resilience because it allows for me to double my Damage Reduction in certain situations, from 6 to 12, so it's a precaution against bosses.

Sundering I'm not worried about because the way I see my guy is if he can't attack the enemy due to armour, he'll attack the armour, breaking it, then that'll grant himself an easier time at killing the enemy. Items can be fixed if we really want the loot, but my character cares little for things that won't benefit him and would much rather kill an enemy fast and efficiently, than worrying about damaging his opponents armour and weapon.

I'm stuck on where to put Raging Vitality and Bolstered Resilience now though. Dreadful Carnage would be nice, but I don't know if it's really worth it, considering my Intimidate score starts off as 4, then reaches 23 at level 20. I don't really know if I'll be effective at it, so it might be too situational.

Any suggestions where I could put those three/replace them with? Do I need 24 round of Rage a day or is 18 enough?

Nephril - That feat was called Raging Brutality (Ultimate Combat) and I took it out because of how low my Con is at the minute. As far as I could see, it only let you attack once as you were coming out of rage, not a full attack. I could be wrong though.

Does a human not let you get 1 extra round of rage per level?

Edit: I just read it and it does effect all of your attacks, so I think that'll be better for me instead of Dreadful Carnage, because when I'm in rage, my Con goes pretty high!

Edit 2: It's Half Orc that has the extra Rage trait skill. Would it be worth swapping out Improved Initiative for a feat that allows me to have heritage of the adoptive trait? We're only allowed one trait and one campaign trait, so if I got this, I couldn't have the Barbarian of the Society one, although this benefits me more in the long run, so maybe it doesn't matter.


the OP specifically described his character concept, and full-on barbarian wasn't it.

re: fastmovement + 30ft in medium armor, yes that's how it works,
(unless it's mithril medium armor, which is full speed/40' and also lets you tumble)
Mithril Breastplate is the way I went with Hyundai both to retain Tumbling AND Casting without a signifigant ASF%, but if you are OK not Tumbling (which you need to max out/ be good at to bother with at all), then you can wear Mithril Heavy Armor via Fighter Proficiency and still use Barb Fast movement with it, which makes the most of multi-classing Fighter/Barbarian. (a Fighter Archetype that retains Armor Training 1 would let you Tumble in that armor as well)

re: jotungrip, yes large longswords aren't really something aamazing to aim for using, medium greatswords are basically the same thing (and don't require class features to use without penalty). paizo's iconic uses a large bastardsword and that is basically the main use case for jotungrip (or large dwarven waraxes). Actually, I'm not sure how Large Reach Weapons would work, you perhaps would gain more reach from them than Medium Reach Weapons, and they could be useful for that reason...???

re: Evade Reach vs. normal 5 reach, I'm not looking up the rule, but the idea of the ability is that you can close with an opponent without provoking by running thru their threat range. Normal 5' reach doesn't do that since you only need to run INTO it, so I wouldn't think Evade Reach would kick in here... Sometimes you might still run thru (leave) their threatened squares to reach a Flanking position, but that is not really an issue of 'evading their reach' but an optional tactic that you chose to take (running thru their non-reach threat area).

re: Full attack/Backswing vs. single attacks/ Vital Strike/ Cleave,
the main issue here is that Full Attacks, ESPECIALLY melee ones are way easier for the enemy to 'maneuver' to avoid... Any competent enemey should be evoiding letting you Full Attack them unless there's a specific reason why not. Many conditions can reduce you to Standard Actions, etc, and having competitive options in such conditions can be important (that's what happened in Hyundai's arena game). Even if you have Pounce, that requires Charging which has it's own restrictions which may not always be met.

For Vital Strike, I would only ever take it's 1st Feat (IF I used a high damage dice weapon like Bastard Sword or Greatsword), beyond that it's just too specialized, since you WOULD like to Full Attack if possible (plus other options). Cleave firstly is awesome at low levels when you don't even have Iteratives as an option. Even when you do, choosing Cleave's 2nd attack at Full BAB could be better than an Iterative, not to mention it's usability when you only have a Standard Action. Like Vital Strike though, I wouldn't take Greater Cleave just because it's too specialized.

re: come and get me & AoOs, Yes, it does use up your actual AoO's, so to make multiple AoO's from it you need to have more than 1 AoO somehow (which is another reason not to ditch DEX, so that if you get Combat Reflexes you gain multiple AoOs). I don't think it's really important to have a HUGE number of AoO's, but 3 or 4 is definitely nice. There is a Rage Power giving +1 AoO with no DEX requirement, but if you have other options they are probably better.

you should address why you need many AoOs in the first place... theorycrafting about how much DPS you can have when you get X free hits at full BAB for every hit against you is just that, theorycrafting. You don't need to win a DPS contest, you just need to survive and kill your opponents. So if you don't have alot/more than 1 AoO, you might want to figure out someway to make that AoO COUNT:

Disarming your opponent can be done as an AoO (negating their attack with that weapon), and my personal favorite is Knockback Rage Power: it lets you do a Bullrush as an AoO, which moves them from position, potentially negating their attack (if they no longer threaten you). If you opponent's turn/action is wasted and your turn is coming up next, you are much closer to kick their ass with no skin off of yours.

re: Unexpected Strike, congrats on noticing this Rage Power from Core, which was what 'saved' the Core Barbarian IMHO. It overlaps somewhat with CaGM in how it's used (enemies often enter your threat range to attack you), although having them both IS still useful (UES has utility for when they AREN'T trying to attack you, but move past you to attack your ally, or CRUCIALLY when they try the sneaky-caster-5'-step thing on you: SMACK!!! (although that doesn't interrupt the CASTING action, so if they are still breathing they can now cast without interruption)

re: Greater Sunder, thumbs down unless you get it for free somehow, if you are Sundering you are doing so because Sundering Items is a better option than just straight damage attacks... So getting SOME damage on the enemy (the excess over the item's HPs) just isn't the 'gamechanger' that you want from a Feat. I recommend Knockback instead, as per above.

re: issue of Rage Rounds... Yup, you stumbled upon the achilles heal of Barbarian/Rage-lite multi-class builds. Extra Rage Round Feats exist, but then you're paying out your nose for it. If you have not that many Barbarian/ Rage levels (Rage Clerics and Inquisitors also get Rage Rounds), I would say that you need to come to grips with that fact, and plan on not Raging every round of every battle.yl, you can 'cheat' :-) and use magic that gives you a 'full day's rest' for non-spell-casting purposes, and gain back your (limited) Rage Rounds that way... But I would say that you should still plan on fightinng without Rage if you arne't that heavy into Barbarian, any GM /SHOULD/ push you sometimes with back to back fights that don't allow 'recharging' your sleep/Rage Rounds. Also be aware of what Barbarian (/Archetype) Abilities are on 'all the time' vs. ones that only work (/can be used) while Raging... The former will be more broadly useful to a heavy Fighter/lesser Barbarian multiclass build that is Rage Round limited.

EDIT: I'm not 100% sure of the Half-Orc trait thing you're talking about, but Favored Class Bonuses of Races are NOT something that the Adopted Trait would let you gain... Paizo has made that explicitly clear AFAIK (sorry, look it up your self :-) ). Adopted is for gaining Traits (half-feats) normally only open to X Race, it doesn't give you the Race's actual abilities, which Favored Class Bonuses are effectively counting as.


Wow! That's an incredibly informative post, Quandary. Thanks very much!

Taking into account what you've said, I've edited my build below. Though, I'm still trying to work out if I should find somewhere to throw in Cleave.

Spoiler:

Feats and Rage Powers:

Level 1/Fighter: Furious Focus, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes
Level 2/Fighter: Improved Sunder
Level 3/Barbarian: Bolstered Resilience
Level 4/Fighter:
Level 5/Barbarian: Extra Rage, Strength Surge
Level 6/Fighter: Raging Vitality
Level 7/Barbarian: Extra Rage Power - Renewed Vigor, Powerful Blow
Level 8/Fighter: Weapon Training
Level 9/Barbarian: Extra Rage Power - Renewed Vitality, Reckless Abandon
Level 10/Fighter: Improved Critical
Level 11/Barbarian: Extra Rage Power - Knockback, Beast Totem (Lesser)
Level 12/Fighter:
Level 13/Barbarian: Raging Brutality, Beast Totem
Level 14/Barbarian:
Level 15/Barbarian: Extra Rage Power - Increased Damage Reduction, Unexpected Strike
Level 16/Barbarian:
Level 17/Barbarian: Extra Rage Power - Beast Totem (Greater), Crippling Blow
Level 18/Barbarian: Greater Rage
Level 19/Barbarian: Extra Rage Power - Come and Get Me, Increased Damage Reduction
Level 20/Barbarian:

Rages per day by level 5 onwards (with Berserker of the Society): 15


you're welcome, i like to feel like i was helpful :-)

i won't get into the specifics of your build as a whole,
but furious focus at 1st level doesn't seem like the best choice:
it's only +1 to hit at that level, right? So you could just get weapon focus which applies to ALL attacks, i.e. AoOs, Cleaves, Iteratives when you get them, and not just the 1st attack of your turn (which has a higher chance of hitting without a +1 bonus than your Iteratives, i.e. that could use a bonus more).
I would say look at the low levels for where you can fit in Cleave, because that's where it's relatively strongest.
Combat Reflexes is another Feat which I would advise against at low levels, certainly 1st level... I mean, until you have Come and Get Me, you are just not very often even going to have the opportunity to take multiple AoOs unless you are using a Reach weapon (or are Enlarged), especially when you consider that 1 enemy provides Soft Cover to it's allies (potentially blocking AoOs) and even with Reach Weapons it isn't SUPER COMMON to take more than 1 AoO vs multiple enemies.
Another Feat to consider at some point (low levels especially when you aren't facing ultra-huge monsters) is Lunge, since it lets YOU avoid creatures' Reach, enemies position themselves based on your assumed Reach given your weapon and Size, meaning they may well leave themselves in attack range (or Full Attack range) for you.

Maybe Improved Crit is the right Feat for you, but I'm more dubious, at least until you have Pounce (and can fULL Attack more often), just because anybody can get Fortification not to mention the creatures that are 100% immune.
I think Feats like Iron Will, Blind-Fight/Imp. Blind-Fight (don't bother with Greater, Improved gives you less than a 1/20 chance that Full Concealment will negate your hit) can be really great. Also, check out the Sargava Companion (or Player's Guide to the Serpent AP?) for a Rhino Charge Feat, letting you Ready a Partial Charge with no other caveats (i.e. you can still use your Move Action and everything). That is just great by itself, once you get Pounce it's dead awesome.

EDIT: if you go with the Jotungrip/Large Bastard Sword thing, consider keeping a 2ndary MediuM Bastard Sword - Sometimes you can't use 2 hands (like when you're Grappled). Same goes for if you use a Greatsword, a back up 1-hander is very nice. (armor spikes and/or spiked gauntlets are always nice too)


That's all true, though the problem I have is a lot of the feats I've chosen have level based prerequisites, so I can't really switch many items around.

It possibly seems silly to have Combat Reflexes at level 1 when I don't have Come and Get Me until one of the final levels, but without Combat Reflexes, there's no point having Come and Get Me.

I think I'll swap out Furious Focus for Weapon Focus though, because Power Attack goes to a minus of 6, so unless I only used it on my first attack, it'd make all consecutive attacks almost useless.

With Weapon Focus and Weapon Training, I'd get a +2 to hit, then with Gloves of Duelling, I'd gain another +2 to hit (if I can get it), then with a potential +9 to Strength (through my current stats, a stat point every four levels and a belt of +6), I'd potentially have a +13 to hit, so my attacks at level 20 could be 33/28/23/18.

Someone once told me that for every 5 attack bonus scores, you get another attack, so that would essentially mean I could have 7 attacks, but I'm pretty sure if you go by rules as written, you only get what your class states. Otherwise, my stats would be as follows:

33/28/23/18/13/8/3

Iron Will and Blind Fight could be nice, but I fear if I change my current build too much, I'll nerf myself loads and be pretty pathetic as an up front fighter.

Cleave would be great at the lower levels though. :(

Edit: Thanks for mentioning the gauntlet's to me, as you just reminded me; When I had this guy in 3.5, he had an attack bonus of 9 at level 1 or 3 (can't recall, but he never hit his targets. He had terrible luck!), but I had him wearing a Locked Gauntlet at all times, so he could never drop his weapon.

I may just have to do that again, as he's exactly the same guy, so I want to stick as close to the concept, possible.

As for one handed weapons, I could get a Warhammer for brutality, or a Scimitar for high Crit rate!

I think I'm sold on Invulnerable Rager though, because Bolstered Resilience mixed with the eventual 6 DR seems like a pretty good defense mechanism for dire situations.

How would Rhino Charge work by the way? I'm thinking it allows you to move your full distance, then go for a charge and an attack at the end of it (with pounce), meaning you could move what...30 feet, then as you have a readied charge with pounce, you could move an additional 60 feet and attack? I'm not too sure on how that would work.

Edit again: Just checked and you need Improved Bull Rush for that, which unfortunately I won't have.

Seems fun though, as you can circle around the enemy from a distance (30 feet) and then run in a straight line at them, another 30 feet and make a full round attack. Seems better than the normal charge rules of only being able to run in a straight line!

If you've ever read the Spawn Comics, I based my guy originally on the Spawn from the Godslayer series. This guy:

Here and here.

Though in Pathfinder, in my mind he's just a complete nutter who spends his time running around the battlefield in a violent rage (even without using rage), but is perfectly friendly. He just has a very short temper. :p

I'd love my guy to have a high AC as well.

I'm thinking of hoping for +5 Armour, +5 Ring of Protection, +5 Amulet of Natural Armour and a +2 Ring of Force Shield...if I can use that when two handed my Greatsword.

That would give me an AC of 35, but I don't think there's anything else that could raise it.


Okay, so I've changed my build in such a way that I only have one extra Damage Reduction Rage Power, but at level 12 Barb, I'll have DR6 from class Archetype, 1 from rage power and if I can afford it, 3 from Adamantine Armour, so 10's fine I think.

I think I'm finally there with my build now:

Spoiler:
Level 1/Fighter: Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Cleave
Level 2/Fighter: Improved Sunder
Level 3/Barbarian: Extra Rage
Level 4/Fighter:
Level 5/Barbarian: Extra Rage, Strength Surge
Level 6/Fighter: Raging Vitality
Level 7/Barbarian: Extra Rage Power - Renewed Vigor, Powerful Blow
Level 8/Fighter: Weapon Training
Level 9/Barbarian: Improved Critical, Reckless Abandon
Level 10/Fighter: Extra Rage Power - Renewed Vitality
Level 11/Barbarian: Extra Rage Power - Knockback, Beast Totem (Lesser)
Level 12/Fighter:
Level 13/Barbarian: Raging Brutality, Beast Totem
Level 14/Barbarian:
Level 15/Barbarian: Extra Rage Power - Increased Damage Reduction, Unexpected Strike
Level 16/Barbarian:
Level 17/Barbarian: Extra Rage Power - Beast Totem (Greater), Crippling Blow
Level 18/Barbarian: Greater Rage
Level 19/Barbarian: Combat Reflexes, Come and Get Me
Level 20/Barbarian:

Rage: 21 rounds per day.


Dumb question, what does Rage Cycling mean?


CaspianM wrote:
Dumb question, what does Rage Cycling mean?

Rage Cycling is the tactic of dropping into and out of Rage in order to reuse abilities that are only available once per rage.


I'm currently playing a fighter with the two-handed fighter archetype in a Pathfinder Society campaign. As a fifth-level dwarven fighter with a greatsword, I do 2d6+18 damage per hit, which is enough to one-shot many enemies and two-shot anything that isn't a boss monster. I'll go through seventh level of fighter for sure (for Backswing) and maybe eighth (for Greater Weapon Focus), and then likely switch to barbarian. PFS campaigns usually top out at level 12.

Key feats: Power Attack and Furious Focus. I always, *always* power attack, and with FF there's no penalty to do so except on AoOs, of which I think I've had one in the last 14 sessions. At level 6 I'll take Felling Smash, which pretty much duplicates the Piledriver class ability that I wouldn't get otherwise until 11th level.

The one thing I might have done differently at the start is not spend 17 build points for an 18 strength off the bat. Yes, being tougher than almost everyone was nice, but I wish I'd gone with a 17 strength and used the extra four building points to make my dex 12 instead of 8. As it is, my AC is low (20 with full plate and a buckler +1), my archery is lousy, and I don't have access to Dodge and subsequent feats.


Your last build really seems to be solid for what you want...

If I say one more thing on the Blind-Fight thing, it's to consider the value of negating Miss Chance compared to increasing your to-hit number (vs. AC/CMD), which you ARE currently doing plenty of things to accomplish. Why is increasing to-hit a valid goal, but doing anything about Miss-Chance (which applies vs. all attacks) NOT? At a certain point, increasing your to-hit by X is just NOT going to have as much statistical effect as Blind-Fight does (vs. Partial Concealment, you reduce 20% to 4% miss chance, 50% to 25%). Sure, not EVERY target has a Miss-Chance, but plenty of situations DO feature it, and you certainly don't need to load up mega-attack bonuses vs. every enemy either, so why not have effective attacks vs. ALL TYPES of defense? That's how I see it, and it usually proves useful to me.

Also, re: Improved Sunder, that may be just what you want, if solely because of the +2 bonus it grants, but also consider what Lunge allows: if your target doesn't threaten you back, they can't take an AoO, meaning ALL Maneuvers EFFECTIVELY no longer provoke an AoO... Besides it's usefulness for normal attacks.

re: Rage Cycling, that term can be applied to what a normal level 1 Barbarian can do, Raging one Round, then not continuing it, so they are Fatigued the next 2 rounds of the Fight, and then re-starting Rage again. If you don't have very many Rage Rounds that very well may be your normal tactic. But when posters here are discussing Rage Cycling as a tactic, they are USUALLY discussing it in the context of doing it in such a way that you can be Raging every Round (or possibly entering Rage TWICE per Round, so that you are Raging ON your turn AND off your turn, i.e. during enemy actions when you would take AoOs and make Saving Throws). The 17th level Tireless Rage ability lets you do that, as well as anything that negates the Fatigued condition (Oracle Curse, Human Alt-Racial Ability 1x/day, Scarred Rager reduces Fatigued duration by 1/2 so 1 Round of Rage now results in 1 Round of Fatigue instead of 2).


The concept of lunging has always been odd to me, as in real life it's incredibly hard to hit something that far away from you, so I kind of see it as cheating in game, when trying to perform a Combat Manoeuvre that way.

Blind-Fight would definitely help against invisible enemies and in dark areas, but I just don't see what I can replace for it, whilst still keeping my guy effective at everything in combat.

My attack bonus at level 20, with how it is now (no mods from items etc) would be as follows:

20 BaB, 6 Str, 1 weapon focus, 1 weapon training = 28 (22 while Power Attacking)

While Raging = 34

Is that fairly high or fairly low? If possible, I'd grab the gloves of duelling for an extra +2 atk and dmg from weapon training, then I'd turn my weapon into a +5, taking an atk of +28, up to +35 (29 while Power Attacking).

While Raging = 41

Hopefully that'll be good enough.

Then, my CMB for Sundering at level 20 should be as follows:

20 BaB, Str 6, 2 Shattering Strike, 13 Strength Surge, 2 imp sunder = 43
While Raging (+3 Str) = 46

I don't think you add your weapon focus or weapon training abilities on top of your sunder attempt. Damage wise though, I think you do your normal damage, but Shattering Strike gives me a +2 and weapon training with gloves would be a +3, so whatever my damage is +5 would be the damage dealt to the item, as I don't think you can power attack or overhand chop against an item....or can you? It'd be great if you could!

Can you combine Overhand Chop and Backswing, as Overhand Chop would come into effect on your first attack, then Backswing on every consecutive hit, or does Overhand Chop not apply when attacking, then following up with Backswing?

I'll also be swapping out the human racial ability of Skilled for Heart of the Fields, so if I had to use all of my Rage rounds at once, I wouldn't be fatigued. :D

I've also changed my Base stats as chances are my GM said we'd only be playing up to level 17/18 and I needed a 15 in Con by level 6 to get Raging Vitality, so I've gone with the following:

Str: 18 (16, +2 Race)
Dex: 14
Con: 15
Wis: 9
Int: 10
Cha: 8

It means my Perception, Will and Intimidate scores go down by 1, but I can focus entirely on my strength, instead of only being able to put 3 points in strength and 1 in con by end game. :)


re: Lunge, My only advice is don't think of it as 5', think of it as just 1' more: Just 1' more reach the next square, which is all that's needed. Even normal 5' Reach can have believability issues, but I personally don't have a problem with a 'Feat' (Feat of Extraordinary Talent) letting you do this.

Your attack bonus looks fine... You should be getting from +6 to +10 on top of that from Weapon Enhancement, Ioun Stones, Spell Buffs and/or Bardic Performance, and that's not counting Flanking, so you should be fine. If you're curious, just look up high CR monsters and what AC/CMD they have, understanding that Your Level (or Average Party Level) +4 is considered a tough encounter (i.e. boss, or sub-boss at least).

Weapon Atack bonuses (magic weapons, weapon training, etc) apply to every attack made with those weapons... Sunder is delivered with a Weapon. General Attack bonuses, like from Haste, apply to all attacks/maneuvers PERIOD.

enjoy :-)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Where is your Superstitious?

Are you seriously thinking of running a human barbarian without it? THat's like asking a paladin to give up his Charisma to saves. You know you can get like +13 to all saves against magic with Superstitious?

Secondly, getting Come and Get Me at level 19? When your campaign is almost over?!?

Come and Get Me generates ATTACKS for you. More attacks = more damage. Yeah, you'll get in a big hit with your sword, but then the monster is in front of you whipping out a full attack of its own.

At which point, you kill it on ITS TURN.

Fact: At higher levels you will almost NEVER kill anything in one hit, except possibly with a crit.

That leaves you in front of the enemy eating a full attack.

Come and Get Me then kills them using their OWN ATTACKS as fuel for your rage. You need to get Come and Get Me as soon as possible, and then watch the enemy throw themselves into the Cusinart you've become.

This ability is the clone of 3.5's Robilar's Gambit, which was noteworthy for turning Fighters into AoO blenders.

If you have Pounce on top of it, you are a freaking MACHINE. You don't need a big single hit if you get a full attack on a charge!

At higher levels, there are rage powers that boost your CMB to the moon...you'll just win any opposed sunder check. Your strength score is going to be astronomical...you don't really need the extra dmg of the TH fighter, you'll be doing plenty on your own.

Seriously, man, leave out the Fighter levels. With Superstitious, your save defenses are going to be better then the paladin. With Pounce and COme and Get Me, you'll be getting more attacks then any other melee in the group, guaranteed.

I would suggest looking around the board for the basic build of AM BARBARIAN to realize just how brutally effective a pure Barbarian can be. Faster, better defenses, better offense, defense against magic, DR...it was just nuts. A Fighter just did not compare.

NO need for fighter levels. You'll do awesomely fine without them.

==Aelryinth


I'm not too experienced with making characters, but try 1 level in alchemist. The downside is you sacrifice 1 BaB, the upside is that you can mutagen + enlarge person + rage for a total of +10str +4con -2 dex -2ac (-to dex included) 10 foot reach.

It's not so much optimized as it is trolling. A level 2 that can give itself +10 to strength is a daunting thing.


Goregutz wrote:

I'm not too experienced with making characters, but try 1 level in alchemist. The downside is you sacrifice 1 BaB, the upside is that you can mutagen + enlarge person + rage for a total of +10str +4con -2 dex -2 int -2ac (-to dex included) 10 foot reach.

It's not so much optimized as it is trolling. A level 2 that can give itself +10 to strength is a daunting thing.


@Goregutz - A very cool idea, but sadly not for my character. He doesn't enlarge himself or really care to. He goes by his own strengths and is pretty set in his way with things. He's pretty placid, can get on with most people but will fly off the handle at any given opportunity if annoyed enough or attacked.

@Aelryinth - I know. It's possibly a silly move, but my character has traits from both a Fighter and Barbarian. I mean in 3.5 he was sheerly a Barbarian, but now that Overhand Chop etc (his trademarked move) is now exclusive to a Fighter only, I had to rebuild the character from scratch, whilst maintaining his personality, keeping it true to who he is.

If I was going for your normal, run of the mill Barb, I'd do what you're suggesting, but I have a clear concept in my mind and Superstitious isn't even an option for my guy because he really has no problem with people using magic. He hasn't ever and I'd rather have a Cleric heal me, than make a save against them, preventing them from doing so.

He's a friendly guy, trusting of others.

@Quandary - Can you Power Attack a Sunder then? :p

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Sure you can Power attack on a sunder. take the penalty on your CMB, add the damage if you succeed.

==Aelryinth


Ah, that's great then!

Without armour or a weapon, any boss we come across will be useless unless they have improved unarmed strike and/or breath weapons.

Dark Archive

Joyd wrote:
CaspianM wrote:
Dumb question, what does Rage Cycling mean?
Rage Cycling is the tactic of dropping into and out of Rage in order to reuse abilities that are only available once per rage.

Rage Cycling is a rules loophole that allows for the tactic of dropping into and out of Rage in order to reuse abilities that are only available once per rage.

Fixed!


Bandavaar the Brave wrote:

Ah, that's great then!

Without armour or a weapon, any boss we come across will be useless unless they have improved unarmed strike and/or breath weapons.

Here's hoping the rest of your party is so gung ho about destroying thousands of gp in loot every boss battle! Fingers crossed!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Stream, that's a totally moot point. If it gets destroyed, then the DM should make up for the lost loot in other ways. Otherwise, you're metagaming Sunder and making it useless as a feat because it penalizes those who use it.

==Aelryinth


Yes. Worrying about Sundering destroying loot in an abstract sense (as opposed to Sundering SPECIFIC ITEMS that you care about, e.g. the McGuffin) makes about as much sense as worrying about not chopping down and selling for lumber EVERY SINGLE tree that you walk past, or not mining every inch of rock that you travel thru. Wealth by Level is a guideline for GM's, and isn't subject to looting specific items or not. You can make an aesthetic decision to throw the BBEG's loot off a cliff... If your GM does not allow you reach WBL by some other means, then that ONLY reflects on the GM as not interested in following WBL. In fact, there really is no reason to follow WBL per se, but if you don't, it's just a message to the GM that they will need to compensate in other ways... Since figuring out the details of those other ways is WORK, following WBL is usually the simplest path.

...And yeah, Power Attack (or Powerful Blow, etc) DEFINITELY applies to Sunder.
So does Vital Strike if you doing it as an Attack Action (which is how Sunder normally works).

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