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What do you think of this fighter?


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Theos Imarion wrote:
thanks, but double slice so late?

I just went back and looked at the Sawtooth Sabre. That's a solid option if you want to go with an exotic weapon (Kukri isn't an exotic weapon)- and it counts as a light weapon for the purpose of TWF, so no "extra" penalty to your TWF attacks.

Double slice is only going to be +2 damage to your off-hand attacks at early levels (maybe +3 later?), so it isn't a high priority.

If you want higher average damage per attack, go with Sawtooth Sabres. If you want more frequent crits, go with Kukris and consider moving Double Slice up to first or second level.

Ok I'm going with Kukri so thats good.

Is their some feat which increases your crit modifier, I seem to remember one?

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

I haven't looked it over in detail but at first glance, you can't have magical enhancements on weapons unless the weapon already has a +1 bonus. Being masterwork isn't enough.

You also don't need the hand of glory. I would drop the rings of wishes honestly. That's just me though. I also don't see the Endurance feat, which is a prerequisite for Diehard. I don't think you need Diehard anyway. You've got a lot of hit points already. I would look for something that gives you a miss chance so that you simply don't get hit as often. Even raising AC is only going to help so much.

Look at it this way: let's say that you are fighting a an ancient red dragon (CR 19). It's going to hit you 95% of the time already. A cloak of minor displacement changes that to 76% of the time. A cloak of major displacement changes that to 47.5% of the time. Even if you are defensive and have that 37 AC, the dragon will normally hit 90% of the time, 72%, and 45% respectively. Miss chances can be a way to go.

Also, remember that you want to do more than hit things. Take some feats that help you either with defense (Iron Will for example) or help you out of combat (skill affinity feats and cosmopolitan for example).

I still think you would be better with a mobile fighter instead of a two-weapon fighter. You can still use two-weapon fighting but you will get more attacks and still be able to move.

This is a preliminary build that I would start with. It still needs work but it can get the job done.

** spoiler omitted **...

I like it, you think the extra minuses for not being a TW fighter is not worth worrying over?

Theos Imarion wrote:
none as of know although when I do use him probably first level

If you're going to start at level 1, planning for level 20 is, literally, worse than useless.

ah thanks Rasmus, mostly I was doing this to understand why my characters were bad, but I decided later I might use him in a game.

Theos Imarion wrote:
I like it, you think the extra minuses for not being a TW fighter is not worth worrying over?

I would go for ability to move and make as many attacks as possible instead of getting a few bonuses to hit. It's actually pretty easy to get bonuses to hit. Whatever archetype you go for should be one that will be useful in the campaign. Not all archetypes are the best choice for the game you are in.

I haven't put much time into this fighter because I have been extra busy with work and my health. Bear with me.

Its okay, I know this thread is not your life.

I think I might forgo TWF archetype in exchange for the Mobile fighter.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Theos Imarion wrote:
Is their some feat which increases your crit modifier, I seem to remember one?

That would be improved crit


I was called to this thread as a favor to a friend who PMed me asking to participate. I only just now got his PM, so sorry if this is a bit late. ^-^"

In addition to what others have said, I would like to note that as written (not sure about FAQ but I'm wishy/washy on what I think about the FAQ anyway, since it has contradicted itself in the past) multiple speed weapons do indeed stack. Here's the relevant stuff in a clean little spoiler for you, so as not to derail the thread.

Speed, Haste, or Speed&Haste?:
Oh yeah, RAW (from 3.0 through PF) speed weapons stack, in the sense you get an extra attack with that weapon. Having multiple speed weapons still gives an extra attack with that weapon. You cannot, however, make an extra attack with the weapon via haste or similar.

[] = my commentary on the grammar/structure.
Bold = my placing emphasis to illustrate certain things already noted in the text.

SRD-Speed Weapons wrote:
When making a full-attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it [it being the speed weapon]. The attack uses the wielder's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit [that is, making an extra attack with the weapon] is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)

The text for the haste spell is as follows.

SRD-Haste wrote:
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon.

It is not simply an additional attack, but an additional attack with a specific weapon. Thus a character wielding one speed weapon gains no benefit of the haste spell because he cannot use his speed weapon to make the additional attack with. However, as written, he could use a different weapon to make the extra attack with (such as a spiked gauntlet), because it is a different weapon that is gaining the extra attack.

Ergo, if an 5th level Fighter is wielding a +1 speed greatsword (ignoring WBL for a moment) he would get a +6/+6 attack routine from the speed. If he was hasted, he would be able to make an additional attack with a weapon, but not the speed weapon because the speed weapon specifically forbids it. He could however attack with his gauntlet however, making a +7 (greatsword)/+7 (greatsword, speed)/+6 (gauntlet, haste). If he were dual-wielding a +1 speed short sword and a +1 short sword (non-speed) while hasted, he would be able to make 4 attacks (1 normal, 1 off-hand, 1 speed, 1 haste) but could not use the haste attack with either of his speed weapons.

Likewise, possessing a pair of +1 speed short swords would have the same effect, granting +1 attack with each short sword, but in this case being hasted would have little benefit unless he had another natural or manufactured weapon to make the attack with.

Incidentally, this means speed weapons are arguably useful, as opposed to colossal wastes of money; since you will actually get something in exchange to your 15% loss in accuracy, DR penetration, and damage, which isn't completely overshadowed by any of the following:

  • Haste/quickened haste
  • Boots of Speed which are a far less costly investment (you could buy 2.6 pairs of boots of speed for the minimum enhancement cost of a +1 speed weapon).
  • Any intelligent item that casts haste on you at will or even 3/day or similar, which is less expensive than the minimum cost for a +1 speed weapon.
  • The big thing with general optimization has been covered by Bob Loblaw nicely. That is, the question of "what do you want it to do?". That's the big thing. Generally, 2 handed or dual-wielding builds are Fighters who are forgoing exceptionally high armor classes and instead intending to end fights quicker by doing significant sustained or burst damage on their enemies (a tactic that gets harder and harder to maintain as your levels rise, as enemy HP grows faster than weapon damage, and getting your full-attack on becomes harder and harder as you gain levels).

    Incidentally, the best dual-wielding weapons are actually double-weapons that require 2 hands, such as staffs, double swords, double axes, and so forth (I'm fond of Staffs to avoid dropping an EWP feat, since you'll already want your feats for dual-wielding things, as TWFing is a very feat intensive specialization). In essence, 2 handed weapons get better returns on Power Attack, and get the 1.5 strength damage multiplier by virtue of being a 2 handed weapon, which helps counteract the 0.5 damage multiplier when making an off-hand attack, and excels with Double Slice which removes the 0.5 multiplier on your off-hand attacks.

    This makes strength focused dual-wielders the melee version of focused archery builds. Feat intensive, but devastating in terms of raw damage potential on a successful full attack. Dual wielding 1 handed weapons is less effective, but may be more appealing for characters who aren't dedicated Fighters, or whom will not be able to pump Strength significantly over the course of their career (perhaps a Fighter/Ninja who emphasizes precision damage like Sneak Attacks and Dexterity as opposed to the more direct Strength-based combat).

    Double weapons are also beneficial because you can deal fair burst damage (at low levels) with them when you're not making a full-attack. For example, if you have an 18 strength, but can only get 1 hit off, then 1d6+6 with a quarterstaff is better than 1d6+4 with a short sword, or 1d4+4 with a kukri, no matter how you slice it. Kukri are nice if you want to specialize on landing critical hits, but if your GM allows anything from the, then requesting the option for a double-scimitar (as double sword except 1d6/18-20 instead of 1d8/19-20) would be a very mild request (incidentally this item is actually published in the 3.5 Eberron campaign setting).

    Remember that a dual-wielding build suffers from several major drawbacks. They are traditionally worse against damage reductions (lessened in 3.5 and Pathfinder by watering down DR, and allowing +X weapons to ignore DRs entirely), and is generally an expensive habit in both feats and material wealth (as you'll generally have to keep at least one extra weapon in current condition). You'll generally need to split your money for weapons thinner, and you will simply not be able to remain "current" with your primary weapons throughout most of the game.

    For example: A pair of +2 weapons is the same cost as a single +3 weapon. The guy with the +3 weapon is now 5% more accurate per strike than you, 15% more accurate when you're dual wielding, deals comparable to greater damage when neither of you full attack, and bypasses some material-based DRs by virtue of having a +3 weapon (allowing the weapon to hit as silver/cold iron regardless of composition).

    Because of this, any caster in your party who can cast greater magic weapon should be your Best Friend Forever(TM), because you will generally rely on them to cast it on your weapons during the day, to allow you to get similar +hit/dmg as Nameless2HanderGuy for 5-20 hours per day, which can allow you to get a few special qualities on your weapons (instead of 2 +2 weapons, you might get a +1 merciful and +1 vicious weapon, or a pair of +1 bane weapons, for example), and let the spell make up the difference.

    As with any character, I recommend planning for multiple occasions. Do not worry so much about getting to biggest best shiny weapons you can. Start small and work your way up. Consider working out which party members will be able to craft magic items (because it's needed if you want access to better than +3 or higher weapons, +4 or higher armor, +4 or higher resistance items, +5 or higher ability boosters, and +3 or higher deflection or natural armor modifiers) and try to get a variety of lesser magic items that can be upgraded later.

    For example, fairly early in your adventuring career, as variety of small +1 buffs is more noticeable than singular +2 buffs. For example, a +1 armor (mwk armor + 1,000 gp), +1 ring of protection (2,000 gp), and +1 amulet of natural armor (2,000 gp) does more for your AC than a single +2 ring of protection (8,000 gp) and costs less. Later you can get them upgraded to their +2 versions for the difference in cost (so your 2,000 gp ring of protection +1 can be upgraded to a +2 ring for 6,000 gp (instead of buying it outright at 8,000 gp).

    Some general adventuring tips related to this cost efficiency include...

  • Upgrade when upgrades become feasible. There is no shame in having only a +2 weapon at 11th level. In fact, it's all you can buy in a city in core with reliability. It's better to have multiple +2 weapons than a single +3 or even +4 weapon.
  • Don't neglect circumstantial bonuses. Consumable items, especially alchemical, potion, or wondrous items are often cheap (relatively) and can have powerful influences on your survival. A potion of enlarge person is 50 gp and can be drank as a standard action, and lasts 10 rounds (great for warriors). An antitoxin costs 50 gp and gives a +5 alchemical bonus on saves vs poison for 1 hour (easily saving your life from bad things like wyverns or drow). A smokestick (10-20 gp IIRC) can be dropped to completely destroy many tactics against you (it completely shuts down sneak attacks, can be used to Stealth like a ninja, and provides a nice evasion % against incoming ranged attacks, and cannot be penetrated by spells like true seeing). Some bigger consumables like elemental gems are reasonably priced for mid-levels, and you'd be surprised how much of a difference one huge elemental can make when you need the help.
  • Invest in minor equipment. You can buy a masterwork tool, flavored as desired, for any skill in the game for 50 gp. For example, you can purchase a mwk tool for Stealth (perhaps padded boots or a fine cloak). You might have a series of books that you read during your downtime that provide a +2 bonus to certain Knowledge checks or Linguistics checks, and so forth. Doesn't matter what it is, but it's 50 gp if it grants a +2 circumstance bonus to a skill. Such investments are mild early on and help a lot, and can be quite flavorful.
  • Know your role. What purpose do you serve in your team? As a dual-wielder, it's likely the goal of taking down strong single-target enemies. It might also be making it too risky to approach your squishier members, for fear of incurring your electric-blender of doom. This will likely mean working with your party members to set up the ball, so to speak. If you're goal is to close in on enemies and unload your guns on them, see if your party's caster can use spells that prevent enemies from getting away from you, or to help you get to them, or prevent them from slowing you down, etc. Work together, find success.

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