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Distant Worlds: Everydaylife on Verces


Pathfinder Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Lantern Lodge

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Tacticslion wrote:
... so I've gotten way off the topic of current Vercite theory and into theoretical past (probably-now-defunct) religious ideas. Sorry

Yes, apologize - and grovel - in your attempts to make up for your serious indiscretions. :P

Anything which creates the mentality, social customs, traditions, or historical heritage of Verces is applicable. You did not go off-topic. Much of these things go hand-in-hand when dealing with creating a believable fantasy culture. Weather (which happened before people got there) affects druids and life in general - technology is often a byproduct of social customs and practical needs - and most every challenge is met during times of hardship or obstacles.

So, druids and clerics of certain deities are most certainly an integral part in protecting the planet from continuing havoc from devastation. We have several deities with workable histories which fit into this structure, and we have the potential for pockets of darkness in an otherwise well-balanced society, still finding its way out of its own history, which is inlaid with many faults, failures, and missteps, leading to an otherwise relatively mature society which finds the meeting place between technology (scientific and engineering innovation) and magic (arcana of the practical/impractical sort). They may even have been the harbingers of one of their own previous near-demises, and are still learning from their actions to this day.

I love the bit about the monks=>ships, and how all of these factors are being easily tied into a very sound and reasonable philosophy of self-perfection. Very cool ideas here - and indeed, even your writings on the subject are very profound! And here, I was wondering if there was anyone else out there who could say/write things that sound as if they came straight out of a real religious/philosophical doctrine...! ;)


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Quick message while traveling home for holiday, thanks Xidoraven and Tacticslion. Glad I'm not the only one geeking out about the weather. I can definitely see it as being a foundation for the God-vessal caste's power.

Not sure about how the moisture would precipitate out, but the wall of fog/snow idea sounds really cool. It get darker, colder, and more difficult to see, and then, you reach to frozen clarity of full darkside. Where stars are the only light. Definitely reinforces the monks being there.

Ohhh man! Idea! This would be set during the iron age period. "My king! I would tell you the story of Lion and Raven and their journey to the other worlds. Of how they passed through the clouds into the lands of darkness, where the ice dragons rule and flame means death! Of how they passed beyond the clouds into the lands of light, where a man has no shadow and all things are revealed. Harken to my tale! For in tales lessons are learned and the wisdom of the ancients made known.


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I bring word from the mighty Sutter, Master of the Universe!

"In answer to your questions: there are definitely still continents, and in fact Darkside likely has frozen oceans under there."

From this I assume he means that there is still tectonic activity, so hot spring are viable. Also, the oceans thing.


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That... makes me happy!

Lantern Lodge

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Lloyd Jackson wrote:

I bring word from the mighty Sutter, Master of the Universe!

"In answer to your questions: there are definitely still continents, and in fact Darkside likely has frozen oceans under there."

From this I assume he means that there is still tectonic activity, so hot spring are viable. Also, the oceans thing.

That may also mean that the "river" which winds down the line is a man-made feature. I would assume the jaggedness of its course means that they would have attempted to follow natural topographical valleys, and it probably means that this project would have been one of the largest in recorded history.

They might have technological or magical means to allow these features to be maintained despite tectonic activity, giving them a longer lifespan than might normally be possible. I say this because natural tectonic activity would make it increasingly difficult over time to keep the "river" from being degraded or completely altered. Obviously, this would also be a big deal, since water must be one of the resources on which they must solidly monitor, given our earlier conversations on the difficulty of maintaining precipitation/weather phenomena for a viable biosphere.

I am about to find/make a thread like this for Castrovel. Does anyone know of any already formed on here? I'm also going to be expanding the social stuff beyond the books for Castrovel, for another adventure arc I am working on (Return of the Annunaki).

Lantern Lodge

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There is now a thread like this one for Castrovel: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pb9l?Distant-Worlds-Everyday-Life-on-Castrovel

Grand Lodge

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Lloyd Jackson wrote:

I bring word from the mighty Sutter, Master of the Universe!

"In answer to your questions: there are definitely still continents, and in fact Darkside likely has frozen oceans under there."

From this I assume he means that there is still tectonic activity, so hot spring are viable. Also, the oceans thing.

You can have continents without tectonic activity. Or even oceans. Venus has continents, they're just raised and thicker areas of the crust.

Silver Crusade

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Lloyd Jackson wrote:
"In answer to your questions: there are definitely still continents, and in fact Darkside likely has frozen oceans under there."

Now to imagine all the possibilities of life in those.... :D

Add geothermal activity and there could be some hidden and very alien aquatic paradises and/or hellholes down there, stuff that's alien even by the standards of Verces' surface life!

------------

Y'know, one of the things that made the people of Verces so endearing from the start, personally, was that they seemed to have a healthy lack of xenophobia. I don't mean a suicidal or naive lack of wariness, but rather an open minded attitude towards the unknown. I'm not sure if I'd say they were total xenophiles, but given their ease with the concept of trans"vercitism" and their apparent welcoming of outsiders(especially how they try to relate to them via caste-figuring rather than recoiling in fear/disgust)...they seem to have a much healthier attitude about the unknown.

That's refreshing. Given how entrenched xenophobia is in many forms of fantasy(and this is exacerbated greatly by the Lovecraftian elements), this actually comes across as being one of the big things that may make vercites special in Golarion's solar system, coupled with their can-do explorer's attitude.

I really hope this doesn't get twisted around hard on them, as often happens to idealistic themes when cynicism is all the rage. I'd hate to see the vercites turned into naive, wide-eyed victims for the sake of cosmic horror story aesthetics. That's not to say I hope they never get involved with cosmic horror(heck, I want to run a campaign that's all about them and other races taking on the Dominion of the Black), but I hope that their "hat" doesn't become "wide-eyed idealists unprepared for the harsh realities of the universe".

(these worries are mainly due to frequent suggestions or hints that outer space should be treated like Dark Tapestry Horror stomping grounds rather than a setting with new worlds, cultures, and possibilities to esplore without Lovecraft breathing down your neck 24/7)


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LazarX wrote:
You can have continents without tectonic activity. Or even oceans. Venus has continents, they're just raised and thicker areas of the crust.

True, but continents without tectonic activity are less fun. ^_^

Mikaze wrote:
(these worries are mainly due to frequent suggestions or hints that outer space should be treated like Dark Tapestry Horror stomping grounds rather than a setting with new worlds, cultures, and possibilities to esplore without Lovecraft breathing down your neck 24/7)

I see it more like the sea prior to/during the era of exploration. We're comfortable with the coastal waters/solar system, but beyond that... There be monsters. There are things that travel between solar systems, but they are pretty alien. Getting swallowed by an plasma mouthed ray the size of a ship, no thank you. So, they may know that there are things beyond this system and travel is possible, but no one has really done it. I see the Vercites as just beginning to seriously look beyond the horizon of the system. It will require daring and what is a quest of exploration without monsters of the deep? Who will dare the abyss and risk waking the kraken?


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Popping in after reading the comments about the weather-patterns on a tidally locked world. The flow of hot and cold air not being affected by a shifting jet-stream also means that weather systems become remarkably more predictable. There is no unexpected blizzard sweeping in, likely little tornado activity outside of the tempestuous "line" territory where hot meets cold.

What does this mean? It means take everything that is commonly attributed to a weather deity and turn it on its ear.

Weather becomes something less capricious and unpredictable, and becomes something structured and lawful. Dualistic Gozreh goes from being perceived as tempestuous and fickle to logically divided so as their world is.

In fact the rhythm and predictability of the natural world itself may interact with how they perceive time, seasons, and their world itself:

Nature is not out to kill you, it is a strict set of laws and boundaries. Break those laws, and you have only yourself to blame.

Food for thought!


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The Dark Tapestry is all about the vast empty darkness between solar systems. I don't really see the Vercites necessarily being victims to such powers, at least until they expand beyond the solar system.

If anything, they are likely less likely to be affected, as their technology should give them an edge over many Dark Tapestry powers.

They are probably one of the few races in the solar system with the ability to successfully fight back against the Dominion of the Black.

Grand Lodge

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Lucent wrote:


Nature is not out to kill you, it is a strict set of laws and boundaries. Break those laws, and you have only yourself to blame.

Food for thought!

Actually Nature is totally indifferent to your survival, or lack of it.

Grand Lodge

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MMCJawa wrote:

The Dark Tapestry is all about the vast empty darkness between solar systems. I don't really see the Vercites necessarily being victims to such powers, at least until they expand beyond the solar system.

If anything, they are likely less likely to be affected, as their technology should give them an edge over many Dark Tapestry powers.

They are probably one of the few races in the solar system with the ability to successfully fight back against the Dominion of the Black.

Or one of those more likely to willingly give into it without fuss.

Silver Crusade

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MMCJawa wrote:


They are probably one of the few races in the solar system with the ability to successfully fight back against the Dominion of the Black.

That's why they're one of the critical catalysts in that "Hey solar system! Let's punch the Dominion in the throat!" campaign I want to run. :)

Silver Crusade

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Lloyd Jackson wrote:

I see it more like the sea prior to/during the era of exploration. We're comfortable with the coastal waters/solar system, but beyond that... There be monsters. There are things that travel between solar systems, but they are pretty alien. Getting swallowed by an plasma mouthed ray the size of a ship, no thank you. So, they may know that there are things beyond this system and travel is possible, but no one has really done it. I see the Vercites as just beginning to seriously look beyond the horizon of the system. It will require daring and what is a quest of exploration without monsters of the deep? Who will dare the abyss and risk waking the kraken?

That take is a lot more fun, I think. Looking at potential horrors hiding in the unknown("here there be dragons" style) as something to be dared and overcome rather than a reason to huddle in fear and run screaming back into ignorance.

When faced with a paradigm shift, they don't lose their sanity and wallow in despair. They get their engineers to work. :)


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Mikaze: you might want to actually go out of your way to watch the most recent Droid commercials. They might have something for you on Vercite bio-augment-tech conceit (even if the tagline is kind of goofy).

Silver Crusade

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:D

Looking for the newest set of those commercials also pointed me to some older ones that had a bit of Verces-appropriate visuals going on. Thanks for the heads-up! Been finding inspirations for imagery and aesthetics in the most unlikely of places!

(and yeah, they only get to use that tagline when they start offering optical augments, not before!)

Good Lord, that eardrum implant was just painful to look at though. Replace the whole thing if you have to! Just make it look cool and not...all...winces

Vercite prehistory:
vercite caveman use club. vercite caveman am Pure One

vercite caveman call on spirits. vercite caveman am God-Vessel

vercite caveman accidentally set self on fire. vercite caveman am Augmented


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Hahah! Nice!


I'm wondering what the sky looks like on the line. I imagined it looking something like 'Twilight Town' in Kingdom Hearts II(that is, hazy orange with some violet).

I'm also wondering what would happen to Verces if it suddenly started to rotate in a 24-hour period like Earth.

Silver Crusade

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Had to look Twilight Town up, but yeah, I figured the sky over the Ring is typically in that beautiful range of colors too. There's some stock photo that shows up for "twilight desert" searches that's really resonating with me now, but linking the bloody thing is hard at work.

On Verces suddenly starting to rotate...man. Wouldn't that be a death sentence for most forms of life on the planet? Before you even get into all of the havoc that would wreak on the atmosphere and the planet's magnetic fields, there's the matter of just how specialized all of Verce's natural life might have become in each of the three major portions of the planet. Maybe throwing enough magic at the problem could help Verces adapt, but there are so many consequences that would spin out of that I wouldn't know where to start.

Don't give Eox ideas! :O

edit-Hey wait a second.

What if there was a tilt at some point? Not enough to wreck all life on Verces but enough to put some heavily settled and developed areas of the Ring far enough into either Fullbright or Darkside to make them impractical to keep living in.

That could be another way to get some more ruins/lost cities/adventure sites going on the planet. Then again, I don't think there's ever been anything hinting at such an event written thus far.

On the other hand, maybe some ancient civilizations did settle deep enough in Fullbright/Darkside for them to be lost and forgotten over time. Maybe Qidel is one of the few known living remnants of those civilizations?

Silver Crusade

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Also, does anyone know which artist did the Augmented Aethership Captain piece in Distant Worlds?(a.k.a. Zagnabbit's avatar)

gettan ready to make those commissions


Sorry, should have linked about Twilight Town. Planets like this just make my mind go to wondering 'How could I mess this up?' :).

I don't know which artist, sorry.

I'm wondering how to get PCs to Verces. I don't know of any portals to Verces on Golarion. The Vercites are known to use their aetherships to go to Akiton, and there's a portal to Akiton called 'The gateway to the Red Star' in the Mwangi Expanse, but from what I've read it's closed. If the PCs could get to Akiton could they book passage on an aethership?

Speaking about Eox, maybe I should start a thread on Eox called 'Everyday life(death?) on Eox'. Looking at the planet makes me wonder if it's possible to rejuvenate it.

Lantern Lodge

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Barong wrote:

I'm wondering how to get PCs to Verces. I don't know of any portals to Verces on Golarion. The Vercites are known to use their aetherships to go to Akiton, and there's a portal to Akiton called 'The gateway to the Red Star' in the Mwangi Expanse, but from what I've read it's closed. If the PCs could get to Akiton could they book passage on an aethership?

Speaking about Eox, maybe I should start a thread on Eox called 'Everyday life(death?) on Eox'. Looking at the planet makes me wonder if it's possible to rejuvenate it.

I am almost positive that one of the PFS modules (perhaps a very high level adventure) takes the PCs to Akiton through the red door, or something to do with it. It might be worthwhile to read that adventure.... whatever its title was..... >.>

Eox is definitely chock-full of questions unanswered, but tackling that one requires tackling the notions behind the Diaspora, and its previous planets - more than I have time/energy for at the moment. It could be quite the discussion - but I suspect that it would bring more questions (and possible quests) than actual determinations about the culture any more than what is already written. That said, it's a very interesting world, indeed.

Grand Lodge

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Barong wrote:

Sorry, should have linked about Twilight Town. Planets like this just make my mind go to wondering 'How could I mess this up?' :).

I don't know which artist, sorry.

I'm wondering how to get PCs to Verces. I don't know of any portals to Verces on Golarion. The Vercites are known to use their aetherships to go to Akiton, and there's a portal to Akiton called 'The gateway to the Red Star' in the Mwangi Expanse, but from what I've read it's closed. If the PCs could get to Akiton could they book passage on an aethership?

Speaking about Eox, maybe I should start a thread on Eox called 'Everyday life(death?) on Eox'. Looking at the planet makes me wonder if it's possible to rejuvenate it.

Pick a spot.

Plant a portal inside some hidden dungeon.
Lure your PC's there. Only to find that the portal that brought them there is one way. And if they ever want to see home again, they'll have to convince someone to bring them back via aethership. Or some other tangled way back you'd have them use.

Osirion

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Barong wrote:
Speaking about Eox, maybe I should start a thread on Eox called 'Everyday life (death?) on Eox'. Looking at the planet makes me wonder if it's possible to rejuvenate it.

[Eox tangent]

Since negative energy based creatures often have a sort of 'ecosystem' (perhaps better termed 'necrosystem') with ghouls, for one example, feeding off of the bodies of the dead, I could see an entire 'necrology' of spiritual remnants of creatures being siphoned up for whatever lingering scraps of negative energy they possess, to empower the hungrier and more powerful undead. Near negative energy 'pools,' various creatures would serve the necrology's niche of producers, filtering negative energy directly to fuel fleeting existences, and supply energy up the 'food chain' to non-sentient predator undead, who in turn are preyed upon by the semi-sentient and fully-sentient humanoid undead.

The world might seem a bit like the world of the Final Fantasy movie, with tons of surreal incorporeal life-forms feeding upon each other, sustained by some undead 'necroplankton' that can directly metabolize negative energy, and thus serve as the bottom link in a necrological 'food chain.'

On the other, other hand, positive energy still comes streaming down in the form of sunlight. Perhaps some sort of microscopic organism still exists on Eox, converting sunlight into life, and being preyed upon by smaller non-sentient undead, which are in turn preyed upon by larger sentient undead, who go 'fishing' for the smaller undead who harvest the scraps of positive energy absorbed by the micro-life they can't themselves hunt.

I think I prefer the pure necrosystem/necrology, 'though. With a name like 'Eox the Dead,' having positive energy as any part of the 'ecosystem' seems thematically off.
[/Eox tangent]

Grand Lodge

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Sunlight is not positive energy...it's just light.


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[Eox/Diaspora tangent]
The Starstone originally lay on one of the two worlds that would become the Diaspora, but it was undiscovered until Eoxian emissaries found it and secretly used it to ascend to godhood. The Eoxian deities, like their mortal relatives already descending into envy and paranoia, saw the waxing power of the starfarers of Damiar and Iovo and feared what might happen if they too became gods... so they urged their mortal worshipers to create a doomsday weapon and use it against the twin worlds. The devastation of Eox was unexpected, but in the mad gods' view, a small price to pay for their own safety.

The gods of Eox may not yet be aware that the Starstone has been found and used. If they ever find out, Earthfall may look like a harmless summer storm...


Mikaze wrote:

Also, does anyone know which artist did the Augmented Aethership Captain piece in Distant Worlds?(a.k.a. Zagnabbit's avatar)

gettan ready to make those commissions

I would guess on Ilker Serdar Yildiz.

Edit: Or, after a second look, Jean-Baptiste Reynaud. (He swings, and he misses.)


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Check out these great Verces creature illustrations by Nickolas Russell on his blog. He also has some nice backstory for them:

Quote:

The Wandering Horror of Verces.

Over a thousand years ago when the nations of planet Verces were still prone to warfare and their resources were devoted more heavily to military might there was one individual who's existence still leaves an aftertaste in the lives of all Vercites today. Chief Augmentor and Warlord, Grellig Senaeth developed a new class of military weapons based on the grafting techniques that the Augmented get their name from. Grellig was augmenting military weapons with flesh, adding biological capabilities like self repair and healing or production of biotoxins. However Grellig's time as a prolific weapons developer was cut short, he lived to see the establishment of the Grand Assembly of the Ring of Nations and a return to world wide peace as well as a ban on what the Grand Assembly deemed 'grotesque weaponry'. A category that including everything that Grellig held any interest in. He became increasingly frustrated with the beuracracy and slow political dealings that undermined his research and continued to sell weapons to various rebel groups in an effort to instigate more war. But it wasn't long until the Stewards caught wind of this and came after him. When the Stewards went to confront Grellig at his Biotech Compound they were attacked by hideous elephant sized monstrosity composed of equal amounts of organic matter and mechanic. After crippling the intruders the creature disappeared into the Ice Fields of Verces. The Stewards demolished the Compund and Grellig was never found. Rumors began to spread of Grellig augmenting himself into the creature that took on the Stewards so easily. To this day it still roams the Ice Fields and tales tell that it's most recent victims can be seen as grafts on its ever changing body.

Silver Crusade

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Thanael wrote:

Check out these great Verces creature illustrations by Nickolas Russell on his blog. He also has some nice backstory for them:

Keen. I like the idea of old weapons from some loosely defined "Bad Old Days" still lurking out in either of the extreme hemispheres.

This begs to be made into a modular monster entry. :)


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I found an article that may be extra helpful and simply written for any Verces brainstorming:

http://io9.com/5980667/dark-side-of-the-earth-what-would-happen-if-our-plan et-became-tidally-locked


Hey thanks Thanael. I was looking through this thread for inspiration, and the images Tactislion posted! These forums are chock full of ideas.

Lucent wrote:

I found an article that may be extra helpful and simply written for any Verces brainstorming:

http://io9.com/5980667/dark-side-of-the-earth-what-would-happen-if-our-plan et-became-tidally-locked

That's sick. Storms would probably play a large part in the culture of Vercites, probably being the most significant force of nature. And there's more good info from the reference links at the bottom.

Grand Lodge

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The Earth will eventually become tidally locked with the Moon, but the same timescale gives us plenty of other things to worry about long before that happens.

5 billion years from now, the Sun goes Red Giant and swallows up Mercury, Venus, and possibly the Earth, or just makes it into a molten ball.... That won't be an issue because....

3 billion years from now, Earth's inner core will have cooled enough to have ceased plate tectonics. This will lead to crustal thickening, a loss of volcanism, and essentially turn us into a Hot Mars... save that before that happens.....

1 billion years from now... the Sun's expanding luminosity will have heated the Earth more than biology can compensate, leading to a copy of Venus' Runaway Greenhouse effect. Unless the planet has somehow been moved to a higher orbit to forestall this fate.

Grand Lodge

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Lucent wrote:
Nature is not out to kill you, it is a strict set of laws and boundaries. Break those laws, and you have only yourself to blame.

Nature may not be out to kill you, but she wont' care when, not if she does.

" Well, then, maybe you should worry less about the tides, who've already made up their mind about killing you, and worry more about me, who's still mulling it over... "

Azula to her ship's Captain. "Avatar the Last Airbender."

Silver Crusade

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Re: Mythic Realms, pages 46-47:

wtf, Balance?

In keeping with Verces' generally idealistic tone, I'm hoping this wouldn't get past their current ethics commitee. Still, imagine if that thing had made it to Eox...

Starting to wonder just how much of a hankering Verces' "hawk"-ish types are for pre-emptive strikes against Eox. At first I though the current conflict would be more subtle with lots of infiltration attempts, but man....lobbing Eva units at other planets is a whole 'nother ballgame(even if that planet is Eox). ;)


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I'm wondering what their current models are like. x.x;


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I just took a look at Mythic Realms. Wow.

How does Agmazar fit into the social castes? It seems like a pretty solidly augmented thing to me. With you Mikaze that the Star Titan seems less idealistic explorers of the solar system and more WWIII Allies and Soviets tossing nukes at each other.

Not that is isn't cool. I love it! It's just very interesting to have come from Verces. Numerous questions come to mind about this.

1) How do you make/build/grow something like that?
2) That was an brilliant and sneaky backup system built into it.
3) What has changed between Verces and Eox since the time of its creation, and what changes have occurred on Verces itself? From the sounds of it, Eox had successfully invaded Verces' surface and Agmazar, among other things, kicked them off. Is it currently a cold war? A cease-fire? Something more?
4) Verces had the ability to build and launch these things thousands of years ago! Why are they just now starting to explore the system? Just how destruction was the Eox-Verces war?
5) What is/was Balance? Does it still exist?
6) The Bonesages have, or had, interplanetary portal technology/magic. Why then the use of boneships?

Lantern Lodge RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4

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Just saw this article, somewhat relevant:

Full atmosphere/ocean model of a tidally locked exoplanet


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I'm not sure that the Agmazar thing is necessarily that bad.

The text says "the Balance, its makers upon the planet Verces, who created it as an ultimate weapon against undead invaders from Eox"

and

"After Agmazar had great victories, its overambitious creators launched
it into space to take the fight to Eox itself."

So it was a defensive weapon originally, and only launched in an offensive strike after Eox struck first. This isn't a preemptive strike or anything.

I don't really see anything wrong here... especially since if Eox is all liches then it's pretty much solidly and universally evil.


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KtA wrote:
I don't really see anything wrong here... especially since if Eox is all liches then it's pretty much solidly and universally evil.

What if they're Cuddliches?


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Cthulhudrew wrote:
KtA wrote:
I don't really see anything wrong here... especially since if Eox is all liches then it's pretty much solidly and universally evil.
What if they're Cuddliches?

Cuddliches are the worst liches!

(Have you seen what happens when liches touch things?)

Grand Lodge

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Barong wrote:

Sorry, should have linked about Twilight Town. Planets like this just make my mind go to wondering 'How could I mess this up?' :).

I don't know which artist, sorry.

I'm wondering how to get PCs to Verces. I don't know of any portals to Verces on Golarion. The Vercites are known to use their aetherships to go to Akiton, and there's a portal to Akiton called 'The gateway to the Red Star' in the Mwangi Expanse, but from what I've read it's closed. If the PCs could get to Akiton could they book passage on an aethership?

You're the GM. The Paizo setting books are not meant to close off your creativity. You want the PC's to go by aethership, send one down. You want them to go by portal, put one where you want it to be, and make it as functional (or disfunctional) as you desire.

Or if you really want to go pulp, your PC's can go there by random magical cockup John Carter style. Finding a way back home can become their motivation.


Yeah, portals can be anywhere obscure. Random magic malfunction is also good.

---

And while this thread is back up... some thoughts...

I have a feeling there is a lot of subtle use of minor magic in Vercite technology, and probably always has been. The Vercite development of tech might have run into all kinds of problems we didn't really have on Earth since their habitable area is so limited. By the time the Industrial Revolution hit, Europe had access to materials from most of the world. The farming and weapons industry in the 19th and early 20th century were heavily dependent on very specific/localized sources of nitrates. There was a South American "Saltpeter War" over sources of nitrates in I think the Atacama desert. Guano-rich islands in the Pacific were a big deal.

War of the Pacific (aka the "Saltpeter War")
US Guano Islands Act - claiming guano-rich islands

Rubber came from one specific part of the world. There isn't oil everywhere. I think some metals are very region specific, etc. etc. Vercites might use magical help in their chemical industry, magical gaskets, magically treated metals, etc.

So some Vercite tech might malfunction in an antimagic field, even with no visible/overt magic...

---

For similar reasons, I think that the Vercites might have skipped fossil fuels entirely and gone straight from waterwheels and wood-burning steam engines to solar power.

Which implies a lot of power limitations till late in the game... and thus suggests an interesting setup where real, large scale industrialization is a fairly new thing on Verces -- it hit at maybe a 1980-2010 level of technology. That actually makes a lot of sense to me with the Pure Ones still being a viable force in politics -- if Vercite civilization didn't have the industrial base/resources to give tractors and such to every farmer until well into their space age, that could have led to the Pure Ones and Augmented becoming genuinely two different cultures.

Which means Kashak may be the wave of the future, and only unique so far because of Verces' respect for tradition.

In fact:
"the Pure Ones, as those responsible for the business of food production, are by necessity the most populous class,"

i.e. most people are farmers. This seems really unstable -- on Earth people tended to move off the farms pretty fast with industrialization, even when conditions in the cities were much, much worse than anything likely to be prevalent on Verces.


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One thing you are overlooking is the deeply ingrained caste system. This sort of social structure is a self-reinforcing design. Both the God-Vessel & the Augmented are smaller & by cultural/caste mandate unable to wed within their own castes. The may only marry a Pure Ones caste member. This places the Pure Ones in the control seat. Neither caste can continue without the Pure Ones co-operation.

I realize that a caste social system is a bit alien to most American & Western European mentalities. Look at the Indian sub-continent for an ingrained caste system. To marry outside ones caste is to become a social, cultural, & familial exile. Now compound that pressure by an entire planetary society utilizing that caste/value system. Worse yet, due to your actions all your offspring are also exiled. In some caste systems this also means almost certain death at your own family's hands (honor killing is some cultures is a real-world example).

Societal pressure & cultural dogma can & do enforce what no army could.

Look at Feudal Japan or even Dynastic China. Their caste/social systems lasted for most of their existence. The honor (or social perception) of ones place was more important then individual freedoms or even the life of an individual. It is only due to external intervention/interaction that these systems finally fell out of use. Verces has never had radically different cultural development. The are interconnected in their cultural beliefs & the necessities of continued racial survival.


thorneldrich wrote:
One thing you are overlooking is the deeply ingrained caste system. This sort of social structure is a self-reinforcing design. Both the God-Vessel & the Augmented are smaller & by cultural/caste mandate unable to wed within their own castes. The may only marry a Pure Ones caste member. This places the Pure Ones in the control seat. Neither caste can continue without the Pure Ones co-operation.

Yeah, but I kind of think that setup would end up diluting the whole idea of the castes really fast.

Also, one would think Augmented would have more in common with other Augmented, etc.

I can sort of see it lasting once established, in a really tradition bound society, but why would it be set up that way in the first place?
Presumably there were no Augmented at one time, so the current caste system must have developed from something else...

Quote:
I realize that a caste social system is a bit alien to most American & Western European mentalities. Look at the Indian sub-continent for an ingrained caste system. To marry outside ones caste is to become a social, cultural, & familial exile. Now compound that pressure by an entire planetary society utilizing that caste/value system.

And that might well have worked ... up till now. But now that one nation (Kashak) has broken the mold, I'd expect it to spread fast.

Quote:
The are interconnected in their cultural beliefs & the necessities of continued racial survival.

But I don't see how a system based on enshrining really inefficient labor-intensive low-tech means of food production helps them survive.

I mean, a system like that would certainly help some grassland/hedge species that can live in disturbed areas (ones that are declining on Earth now with huge monocultures) but...

And Verces has very limited arable land area so there should be a huge push for efficient farming. The whole 'ring' area would likely be totally managed, even the 'natural' areas, at their tech level.


It would be nice to see a planetary invasion between worlds in Golarion's solar system...a magic vs. technology war or something.


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KtA wrote:
thorneldrich wrote:
One thing you are overlooking is the deeply ingrained caste system. This sort of social structure is a self-reinforcing design. Both the God-Vessel & the Augmented are smaller & by cultural/caste mandate unable to wed within their own castes. The may only marry a Pure Ones caste member. This places the Pure Ones in the control seat. Neither caste can continue without the Pure Ones co-operation.

Yeah, but I kind of think that setup would end up diluting the whole idea of the castes really fast.

Also, one would think Augmented would have more in common with other Augmented, etc.

I can sort of see it lasting once established, in a really tradition bound society, but why would it be set up that way in the first place?
Presumably there were no Augmented at one time, so the current caste system must have developed from something else...

Quote:
I realize that a caste social system is a bit alien to most American & Western European mentalities. Look at the Indian sub-continent for an ingrained caste system. To marry outside ones caste is to become a social, cultural, & familial exile. Now compound that pressure by an entire planetary society utilizing that caste/value system.

And that might well have worked ... up till now. But now that one nation (Kashak) has broken the mold, I'd expect it to spread fast.

Quote:
The are interconnected in their cultural beliefs & the necessities of continued racial survival.

But I don't see how a system based on enshrining really inefficient labor-intensive low-tech means of food production helps them survive.

I mean, a system like that would certainly help some grassland/hedge species that can live in disturbed areas (ones that are declining on Earth now with huge monocultures) but...

And Verces has very limited arable land area so there should be a huge push for efficient farming. The whole 'ring' area would likely be totally managed, even the 'natural' areas, at their tech level.

Not all cultures believe technology = better. Many could feel that technology introduces more problems then it solves.

For example: Where do you build the facilities to manufacture the technological equipment to improve the farm-production? You have extremely limited space that is usable, you have no space for any waste byproducts. Dumping it on either the hot or the cold zones will just result in polluting the limited atmosphere (which the more "primitive" means of farming actually helps maintain & even increase.

Also as to the caste system evolving to meet the introduction of the Augmented is actually very likely. Reading the currently available history of the planet shows that the people seem to be less inclined to violence then humanity in general.

The caste system also could act as a means of birth control on a planetary scale, since pairing are not randomly occurring, & thus birth numbers are fairly constant & helps keep the population from exceeding the limited natural resources. The Augmented actually help control the population problem since then are more likely to meet early deaths (since the take more risks then say the Pure or the God-Vessel). Also the most rebellious would also find the Augmented caste more (more self-expressive, greater options for personal choice, etc...) appealing & thus are more likely to either;
a: Realize a good thing when they see it (i.e. their own culture), having been exposed to other "alien" cultures that are no where near as peaceful or advanced, or
b: Remove themselves from the population via early death or by emigration to other worlds, or
c: Lose their rebellious traits as they aged & gained a greater understanding & acceptance of their own culture.


I still don't see it.

There's no reason dumping waste in the cold or hot zones should necessarily lead to worse air pollution than we have now on Earth -- and if they skip the messy things like coal (does Verces even HAVE coal?)

Verces' ecosystem might in some way be more vulnerable due to the limited area, but it's not THAT limited. The area of the "Ring" is probably at least that of a small continent. And the air should not be especially more vulnerable. The air mass will be comparable to Earth, so pollutants shouldn't build up any faster.

(There is the possibility that Verces' less plant life could mean faster CO2 buildup. But I don't think Verces uses fossil fuels, and quite possibly never did. Their tractors and such would be electric -- solar or nuclear sources of power -- or biofuel based. So no net CO2 buildup.)

And more primitive farming means certainly doesn't increase the atmosphere (are you thinking in terms of oxygen concentration?) compared to more advanced methods. If Verces really had oxygen issues, modern farming technologies could mean more photosynthesis per acre per year and thus more oxygen. (But if it had oxygen issues, native intelligence would be adapted to lower oxygen.)

Eh. I just don't see it working. Maybe it could be ingrained strongly enough to persist (though I doubt it, given the marrying across castes thing - IMO that just doesn't fit the nature of a class or caste system). But however strongly ingrained it is now... how did it get that way?

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