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DR x / Evil ... this means ... say what?!?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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Ok, I realise I'm boneheaded for not noticing this before.

When I look at the celestial bloodline sorcerer I see summons have DR / Evil equal to half your level.
What has always gone through my mind reading that is that you have extra protection against evil.
Which is exactly what this is NOT.

You have extra protection so are better at fighting the good and neutral creatures, that you should not be fighting.
And you are completely vulnerable to Evil, the things you should be fighting.

So if I want to be a summoner that fights evil I should have the Abyssal bloodline because they are much better at fighting evil than the Celestial bloodline.

Angelic creatures are lousey at combating evil they are great at fighting other good creatures.

How does that make sense?!?
Ow! Ow!! My head hurts!!!

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion Subscriber

The same sense as evil outsiders having DR x/good. You need to be *this tall* to enter, read: it takes *THAT* kind of threat to seriously hurt you. Evil cultist lackey you fear not, it takes a genuine demon to kick your butt proper.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

True evil, their actual foes, are dangerous to them.

Those things that they are not meant to fight, other celestials, forces of good, etc, they are given a measure of protection against, which can aid them in employing non-lethal and other less than optimal but more appropriate offenses against.


I agree, it is silly.


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Look at it as Green Lantern has DR x/Yellow. He's resistant to stuff EXCEPT his nemesis. Your celestial powers protect you against "3rd party" sources of damage, but evil still "gets to you" since you're "made of" good.


Kain Darkwind wrote:

True evil, their actual foes, are dangerous to them.

Those things that they are not meant to fight, other celestials, forces of good, etc, they are given a measure of protection against, which can aid them in employing non-lethal and other less than optimal but more appropriate offenses against.

This makes sense.


Chobemaster wrote:
... He's resistant to stuff EXCEPT his nemesis...

This is closer to he's only resistant to the good guys. He's vulnerable to ALL the bad guys. So actually he'd make a much better bad guy.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion Subscriber

Nope. Having Evil alignment does not make your attacks overcome DR x/evil. The rules must specifically call out that your attacks count as such (as is case with many evil outsiders).

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Stubs McKenzie wrote:
I agree, it is silly.

No it isn't really. It's not that the powers of good designed their minions to be vulnerable to evil. It's just that evil and good subtypes are mutually destructive to each other.

A demon that's dr/good is vulnerable to a blessed weapon or a holy avenger.

An angel is simmilarly vulnerable to it's opposite.


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Think of it this way- you have resistance to ALL damage. However, your nemesis is going to do whatever he can to find a specific way to get through your defenses, because, after all, he's your nemesis. Everyone else, who isn't your nemesis, can't get through it because they haven't dedicated their entire being to getting through your exact defenses.

Does that make better sense?

Taldor

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Lavode de'Morcaine wrote:
DR #/evil stuff...

Those of angelic bloodlines are immune to mundane nicks by human knives and goblin horse-choppers, but their skin can be pierced by the most wicked and befouled armaments of the legions of darkness. It takes real evil to actually harm them.


It's a bad system, simply put. You can logic it away all you want but at the end of the day, it doesn't make sense.

Why does a Paladin receive DR 5/Evil at level 17, when said DR will be overcome by pretty much everything he/she fights? You'd be better off not getting the DR and getting something else instead!
You would think that the forces of good that you were fighting for would give you some measure of protection against your assumed foes. But nope! Instead, you get the opposite.

It would really make more sense for the Paladin to get DR/Good, because then the only things that would hurt him are the things that he's not supposed to be fighting. Good isn't expecting good to attack a paladin, so it makes sense that it wasn't prepared for that sort of defense.
But then it gets wonky when the Paladin has to wield a weapon full of evil energy to bypass that DR/Evil that his Undead/Outsider enemies possess.

There's really no good solution.


It's one of those wonky things that just stayed through the game. It's supposed to represent good being strong against evil and vice versa, so someone with someone backwards thinking decided that they should represent that with defense against everything except their enemies (They are strong against everything except their opposite alignment)... What would have made much more sense is if they just had damage bonuses against evil. Coincidentally, the awkward DR is also the reason for a big dissonance between aligned planar beings' DC and CR.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion Subscriber
Neo2151 wrote:


Why does a Paladin receive DR 5/Evil at level 17, when said DR will be overcome by pretty much everything he/she fights? You'd be better off not getting the DR and getting something else instead!

Nope. For example, taking your level 17 Paladin, out of CR 17 monsters in bestiaries so far:

Ancient Copper Dragon
Ancient Green Dragon
Marilith
Ice Linnorm
Ancient Magma Dragon
Bridjine Azata
Keketar
Rune Giant
Tharsfyr
Wendigo
Winterwight
Ancient Sea Dragon
Bandersnatch
Shinigami

Only the Marilith goes thru DR/evil.


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People who have a problem with it are asking the wrong question.

They're saying, "Why would you choose to have a DR that is only weak against the one thing you will want to fight the most?"

But DR isn't something you choose; it's a part of the nature of the world around you.

Just like a fire creature has vulnerability to cold, so a celestial creature is vulnerable to evil-aligned attacks, and vice versa. Those are the attacks that are most designed to hurt them, that they are in strongest opposition to. This makes perfect sense.


Gorbacz wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:


Why does a Paladin receive DR 5/Evil at level 17, when said DR will be overcome by pretty much everything he/she fights? You'd be better off not getting the DR and getting something else instead!

Nope. For example, taking your level 17 Paladin, out of CR 17 monsters in bestiaries so far:

[...]

Only the Marilith goes thru DR/evil.

I think the point was, by level 17 ALL of them do way more than 5 damage, so it doesn't matter if those 5 damage get absorbed by the DR or not.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion Subscriber
Quatar wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:


Why does a Paladin receive DR 5/Evil at level 17, when said DR will be overcome by pretty much everything he/she fights? You'd be better off not getting the DR and getting something else instead!

Nope. For example, taking your level 17 Paladin, out of CR 17 monsters in bestiaries so far:

[...]

Only the Marilith goes thru DR/evil.

I think the point was, by level 17 ALL of them do way more than 5 damage, so it doesn't matter if those 5 damage get absorbed by the DR or not.

Nope, we're not discussing "is DR 5/(whatever)" relevant at level 17, we're discussing "is DR x/evil right for a Paladin".

Also, it's relevant :)


And if the DR were DR x/Good, even the Marilith wouldn't get through. Which would make more sense.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Neo2151 wrote:
And if the DR were DR x/Good, even the Marilith wouldn't get through. Which would make more sense.

And thus, all your paladins and crusaders need to brandish Unholy Weapons to bypass the DR of the badguys. Nah. I'm fine with it working the way it is. ;)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

no, the bad guys would have dr/good, AND the good guys would have dr/good.

why?

Because demons and devils fight one another and themselves far, far more then they fight the armies of Weal.

The armies of Weal, on the other hand, never fight one another. They fight Evil almost exclusively.

This means that demons and devils have a hard time hurting one another, so their battles tend to drag on and be especially viscous affairs. Only the truly mighty can pound through their resistance to one another and subjugate their enemies.

Good is only harmed by true treachery...the turning of holy weapons and powers against icons of goodness. Against evil, they stand firm and resist.

That's properly thematic and logical. It would also give your celestial types more of that 1E feel, where servants of the upper planes were/are demonstrably stronger then those of the lower. Of course demons and devils would fear angels wielding holy weapons. Angels would be made to stand against evil, not be vulnerable to it.

And best of all, it's an extremely minor change that only changes their CR against evil opponents, if that.

==Aelryinth


It is more like, beings made of pure Evil (not just evil, but Evil with capital E) is the kryptonite to beings made by pure Good (again, capital G etc.) and visa versa. They are made to fight each other.

It is like some creatures, like skeletons, are resistant to piercing weapons. Why? Well on a skeleton, there is not really anything to pierce, something that breaks bone on the other hand, like a club, works like a charm.
On an angel, it is somewhat the same, in princible. Think of everything that is not being held by/is an evil outsider, a evil weapon or an powerful artefact (maybe a +5 weapon), as something that really does not effect it. It is an Angel. A being made of solid Good. A meta-super-physical being from a dimension where gods walk. Do you really expect some lousy second level orc barbarian with an waraxe to be able to touch it, let alone hurt it?
Now, what if it was something made from the antithesis of said angel, like a demon. The demon is also a meta-super-physical entity from another dimension. They are made from meta-physical opposites. Different ends of a spectrum, that constantly tries to eradicate eachother.
Seems resonable that they can hurt eachother more easily than most other things.


Lavode de'Morcaine wrote:

Ok, I realise I'm boneheaded for not noticing this before.

When I look at the celestial bloodline sorcerer I see summons have DR / Evil equal to half your level.
What has always gone through my mind reading that is that you have extra protection against evil.
Which is exactly what this is NOT.

You have extra protection so are better at fighting the good and neutral creatures, that you should not be fighting.
And you are completely vulnerable to Evil, the things you should be fighting.

So if I want to be a summoner that fights evil I should have the Abyssal bloodline because they are much better at fighting evil than the Celestial bloodline.

Angelic creatures are lousey at combating evil they are great at fighting other good creatures.

How does that make sense?!?
Ow! Ow!! My head hurts!!!

Damage reduction is not meant to make you stronger against "things you should be fighting". It is meant to make you resistant to any kind of damage period. It makes you stronger in general. However, there are creatures that are naturally vulnerable to some types of damage. Demons are vulnerable to good damage and archons are vulnerable to evil damage, for instance. That's why they seek to destroy each other, because they each embody a weakness in the other. If good didn't exist at all demons would be resistant to the damage of everything and much more powerful so they seek to destroy that which can more easily stop them.


No. It means that only something that is truly wicked can truly hurt something/one blessed by the heavens or the reverse only someone/thing using the power of pure righteousness can easily hurt the truly damned. Or the angel should just get barbarian levels for DR. Its not easier for someone good to blow through DR/evil it requires a good weapon; a smite or holy, but you can always just use raw power(+5) to hurt it.

Shadow Lodge

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Superman has DR X/Kryptonite.

THIS MAKES NO SENSE WHY WOULD HE BE VULNERABLE TO THE THING MOST USED AGAINST HIM!


The way the DR system works, the material/quality that overcomes the DR is named. In my games, there's also another kind of DR - where you ONLY get the reduction against a particular kind of damage. Rather than DR 5/(whatever), I note this as DR 5/vs.(whatever).

Both are useful notions - resistance to EVERYTHING, that can be overcome by something specific, AND resistance that applies ONLY to something specific, NOT things in general.

If you only have the kryptonite-style DR, the only thing that makes sense for (say) a Paladin is that evil is their Achilies Heel. But I like the idea of specific resistence too, so I added it. It's not in the standard game as DR, though - only as things like Protection from Evil (etc) spells.


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The argument against the rule here seems to be that if you are good, you should be immune to all evil, thus rendering the entire point of the game moot.

The game you people are describing is basically a walk through a room full of butter creatures while you wield a gigantic hot knife and are wearing a suit of teflon heated to 400 degrees.

That's about ten times as dumb as the rule itself.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

Some opposites are anathema to each other. If you look at it less like a biological function of adaptation and more along the lines of being so spiritually in tune with something that the opposite is harmful to the very fiber of your being, it may click a bit easier.

Osirion

You see, it all started way back at the beginning of time. It was before any creature had a chance to get irritated with another. Everyone lived with the things that were like themselves, and there was little reason to fight. When they did, it was hard to hurt each other, anyway, so nobody cared. Then one day two beings who didn't live together got in an argument and found that it really hurt when the guy from across the planes gives you a noogie. Both went back to their neighborhoods and gathered a few friends to go give that other jerk what for. As it turns out, both groups were on the way to find the other when they met by chance behind a dry cleaner. There was an ultimate smackdown going on when the cops showed and up everybody ran. Two guys were caught and blamed for the whole thing. One guy tried to finger everyone else. He got three years and his friends got six months. He and his boys eventually became known as demons. The other one who was caught hired a good lawyer and got off with a $50 fine, $30 in court costs and $2 to the Victims Fund. That guy and his buddies became known as devils. The group that got away were called angels and everyone loved them forevermore. At least that's what it said in my freshman history book.


In my opinion, it's actually quite simple: Paladins have their Holy Smite that damages the evil which means that by balance vice versa the other side (be it Antipaladins, be it LE Blackguards tough PF doesn't know them) has a similar power.
Aligned attacks are basically something like a weaker version of that.
Powerful creatures build up a resistance against stuff and of course their intention was that it deflects everything. However, when a powerful demon begins to raze monastries and your templars seem to be unable to hurt him, you have to invent something to bypass that and the solution is to use holy energies to harm him in the form of aligned weapons, same goes for the other side.

On the other hand, if you feel like it, just transform the DR/alignment stuff into DR/epic (where every alignment translates becomes epic) with the idea that powerful beings can build up a special defense that only certain weapons (epic ones) can breach which is the same for all kind of powerful beings, if you can hurt a demon with your weapon you can hurt an angel. (the Wacraft 3 campaign did it that way, beings with Divine Armor can only be hurt by Chaos Damage and Divine Armor is used both by demons and demigods)
Always remeber rule #1.

(in my opinion, the whole damage system needs to be overdone but that's not for PF to do since one would need to change some core stuff)

Bruunwald wrote:

The argument against the rule here seems to be that if you are good, you should be immune to all evil, thus rendering the entire point of the game moot.

The game you people are describing is basically a walk through a room full of butter creatures while you wield a gigantic hot knife and are wearing a suit of teflon heated to 400 degrees.

That's about ten times as dumb as the rule itself.

+1


Here's what I'm sayin:
If Evil (with a capital E) were the antithesis of the goodly outsider races (Angels, etc)...
And the goodly outsider races are outnumbered 100:1 by the Fiends (Demons/Devils)... (If you follow the Blood War, you know this is true)
Then how the hell (no pun intended) have the Angels/Archons/Etc. survived this long?

1 Solar > 1 Pit Fiend -or- 1 Balor
1 Solar < 1 Pit Fiend -and- 3 Balors

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion Subscriber
Neo2151 wrote:

Here's what I'm sayin:

If Evil (with a capital E) were the antithesis of the goodly outsider races (Angels, etc)...
And the goodly outsider races are outnumbered 100:1 by the Fiends (Demons/Devils)... (If you follow the Blood War, you know this is true)
Then how the hell (no pun intended) have the Angels/Archons/Etc. survived this long?

1 Solar > 1 Pit Fiend -or- 1 Balor
1 Solar < 1 Pit Fiend -and- 3 Balors

Hold your horses, before we tackle that we have to apply some biology and explain the validity of t-rexes and dragons.


Neo2151 wrote:
Then how the hell (no pun intended) have the Angels/Archons/Etc. survived this long?

Isn't it obvious? You're bringing up the Blood War without seeing the answer to your question? The forces of evil spend so much time fighting each other that they haven't been able to unite against the forces of good for an eternity. Sure there's 1000 fiends for every 10 celestials, but those 10 celestials are teaming up while those 1000 fiends are fighting each other over who's going to rule what plane after it's all over.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TOZ wrote:

Superman has DR X/Kryptonite/Magic.

THIS MAKES NO SENSE WHY WOULD HE BE VULNERABLE TO THE THING MOST USED AGAINST HIM!

Fixed that for accuracy. Remember, Kal cuts himself accidentally while touching the edge of Wonder Woman's sword in Kingdom Come. So go have at him with your +1 mace!


Gorbacz wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:

Here's what I'm sayin:

If Evil (with a capital E) were the antithesis of the goodly outsider races (Angels, etc)...
And the goodly outsider races are outnumbered 100:1 by the Fiends (Demons/Devils)... (If you follow the Blood War, you know this is true)
Then how the hell (no pun intended) have the Angels/Archons/Etc. survived this long?

1 Solar > 1 Pit Fiend -or- 1 Balor
1 Solar < 1 Pit Fiend -and- 3 Balors

Hold your horses, before we tackle that we have to apply some biology and explain the validity of t-rexes and dragons.

...

Touché


Wonder Woman's sword was Epic though... so more like DR X/epic or kryptonite.

.

I think there's some "not seeing the forest for the trees" going on.
We are talking about Damage Reduction. The creature is supernaturally strong, but against his opposite, he's normal (not weak, noooooormal).

It's not about beefing up your defenses against that which you fight. That's done proactively, with spells and training.
Damage Reduction is about your physical makeup. You are tougher than normal in some special way, but something can cut through that toughness.

Okay, Barbarians train for it... but it's DR X/-, so my training comment still stands.

.

Regarding the Blood War...

I'm not sure if it's canon in Golarion-verse. However, I do feel makes the most sense, given the nature of the alignments involved. In fact, given the nature of Chaotic and Neutral Evil (and to an extent, Lawful Evil), I can see infighting within the alignment as well. Backstabbing for power is such a common trope for evil people.. right after backstabbing for self-preservation.

If it's one thing that Good does well, it's work together. While I'm sure there's probably a lot of bad blood between Chaotic and Lawful Good angels, possibly even wars where enemies are dropped unconscious instead of killed, they be far less often and more likely to drop everything to fight true evil in an instant.

Ha.. a "Bloodless" War as counterpart to the Blood War. This has to have been thought up before me.


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The weirdest part about DR/Evil and DR/Good, is when players will summon evil outsiders to fight evil.


The game is designed after myths, legends and fantasy media. In myths, legends, and fantasy media, you need holy power to hurt demons and such.
Ergo, you'd need the power of darkness to hurt a holy being.
Stop trying to rationalize with isolated logic. Get some context in there first.


The most amusing thing about the DR system is that weapon type DR trumps everything (except DR x/-). You can have DR x/magic, metal, alignment, or even DR x/Epic, and all I have to do to get through it is get a weapon with a big enough enchantment bonus. But even if I get a Greatsword +10 I'm still going to be fighting through a skeleton's DR 5/bludgeoning.

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kaisoku wrote:

If it's one thing that Good does well, it's work together. While I'm sure there's probably a lot of bad blood between Chaotic and Lawful Good angels, possibly even wars where enemies are dropped unconscious instead of killed, they be far less often and more likely to drop everything to fight true evil in an instant.

Ha.. a "Bloodless" War as counterpart to the Blood War. This has to have been thought up before me.

It's one reason I always disliked the square alignment diagram.

People have always used it to assume the differences between Law and Chaos are as great as those between Good and Evil, and should bring Good allies inevitably to blows.
I think that's rot.
They may irritate each other, and have to alter their strategies, but to lay into each other? When evil creatures run among them, pointing and laughing?

IMO, the alignment diagram should be more like a trapezoid, with the good side shorter than the evil, to illustrate the ability of good creatures to better collaborate.


Gorbacz wrote:
Nope. Having Evil alignment does not make your attacks overcome DR x/evil. The rules must specifically call out that your attacks count as such (as is case with many evil outsiders).

Ok, thanks Gorbaz. I didn't read that right. I thought it meant any evil thing got passed it.

That's not nearly as bad. Still seems messed up to me. But it is at least decently useful.

To the rest, thanks. I can sorta wrap my head around some of that reasoning. I can see why it was necessary to balance things out.


Luckily nobody have noted the silly DR/magic is.


Snorter wrote:
Kaisoku wrote:
If it's one thing that Good does well, it's work together. While I'm sure there's probably a lot of bad blood between Chaotic and Lawful Good angels, possibly even wars where enemies are dropped unconscious instead of killed, they be far less often and more likely to drop everything to fight true evil in an instant.
They may irritate each other, and have to alter their strategies, but to lay into each other? When evil creatures run among them, pointing and laughing?

Huh. I'm trying to understand how that paragraph elicited those sentences...

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Because I was agreeing with you?

Sometimes I'll quote someone, so I can follow on from what they said, not slam it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kaisoku wrote:
Wonder Woman's sword was Epic though... so more like DR X/epic or kryptonite.

Not really, no. It has been reasonably well established that Superman is no more vulnerable to magic than the average Joe. I recall it coming up quite a bit in Legion of Superheroes and Justice League.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Nicos wrote:
Luckily nobody have noted the silly DR/magic is.

It's weak against PCs, sure. But it sure isn't silly when facing normals. It's very useful then.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Superman is no more INVULNERABLE against magic then any other person, i.e. he has no invulnerability/DR/energy resistance to magical effects. So, yeah, use a magic sword against him, he'll get cut. He's even been killed by magic before.

Kryptonite is used against Superman because he's vulnerable to it...his DR demands use of the weakness, not the other way around.

Giving celestials DR/Good makes good thematic sense and justifies the 'outnumbered servants of the heavens' shtick, and makes them the go-to guys for fighting evil. It also underscores how lethal the idea of 'war among angels' is, as they have no defenses against being assaulted by other angels!

It makes no sense from a gaming standpoint that it's better to summon a devil to defend against a demon then an angel.

Now, from a balance standpoint, sure, it makes sense, from one point of view.

==Aelryinth


Bill Dunn wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Luckily nobody have noted the silly DR/magic is.
It's weak against PCs, sure. But it sure isn't silly when facing normals. It's very useful then.

I still like more the old DR/+1, DR/+2...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Aelryinth wrote:

Superman is no more INVULNERABLE against magic then any other person, i.e. he has no invulnerability/DR/energy resistance to magical effects.

D'oh! Stupid mistype on my part.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Aelryinth wrote:

It makes no sense from a gaming standpoint that it's better to summon a devil to defend against a demon then an angel.

==Aelryinth

Actually, several arguments made in this thread give 'sense' to that very thought.


Imho good vs. evil is generally a larger gap than law vs. chaos, that said context is a MAJOR factor. As far as CG squabbling with LG I would note that good people/creatures are inheirently more likely to work towards the greater "good", anyone who has played good and evil campaigns can tell you which group was most often more likely to work together towards a common goal

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