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Stacking MW Clothes with Extremely Fashionable


Rules Questions

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Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Tales Subscriber

Here is a question I like to get feedback on

MW clothes are used by some players to gain a +2 bonus to diplomacy

Extremly fashionable is a trait that more or less offers the same.

Should both stack or do you get bonus twice for the same source - expensive clothes?

So you might get up to +6 on diplomacy with this combination - +3 class, +1trait, +2 MW tools

Feedback to RAW and RAI welcome - but please keep it civil and accept opinions of others even if you disagree.

Extremly fashionable
You really know how to make a good impression when you’re dressed well.
Benefit: Whenever you are wearing clothing and/or jewelry worth at least 150 gp (and not otherwise covered in gore, sewage, or other things that mar your overall look), you gain a +1 trait bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks. One of these skills (Diplomacy) is a class skill for you.


I'm not sure where masterwork clothes are from, but if they exist, I would say they would stack with the trait.

From a RAW standpoint, they're two different bonuses, so they stack.

From a logic standpoint, it works as well. Say both Schlub the Fighter and Spiffy the Bard get dressed in their best (masterwork) clothes for the Duke's ball. The clothes generate a favorable (+2) impression for both of them. However, Spiffy's sense of style and bearing (Extremely Fashionable) allows him to make an even better (+1)impression. He just wears the clothes better.


The logical masterwork 'tool' one would use for diplomacy in a situation like that would be fancy, impressive clothes, so I think that's what is intended.


I can find no entry for masterwork clothing or outfits or anything of the sort, so you are in the realm of house-rules. If you are the GM, and you feel they should stack, then they stack. If you are a player, discuss it with your GM, and please accept his or her ruling without argument.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mabven the OP healer wrote:
I can find no entry for masterwork clothing or outfits or anything of the sort, so you are in the realm of house-rules. If you are the GM, and you feel they should stack, then they stack. If you are a player, discuss it with your GM, and please accept his or her ruling without argument.

Look up masterwork tool. Apply that rule to masterwork clothes. Done.

One of my characters is wearing shady sunglasses for a +2 circumstance bonus to bluff. :D


Mergy wrote:
Mabven the OP healer wrote:
I can find no entry for masterwork clothing or outfits or anything of the sort, so you are in the realm of house-rules. If you are the GM, and you feel they should stack, then they stack. If you are a player, discuss it with your GM, and please accept his or her ruling without argument.

Look up masterwork tool. Apply that rule to masterwork clothes. Done.

One of my characters is wearing shady sunglasses for a +2 circumstance bonus to bluff. :D

Does he/she do CSI:Miami jokes?

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

No, I suppose he should.

He's actually a dhampir (I got the boon ages ago), so I reasoned he would want some shades anyway to keep out the bright light. That doesn't actually reduced the dazzled penalty for bright light, but it makes him feel better, and his eyes are hidden so it's easier for him to lie and play poker.


Mergy wrote:
Mabven the OP healer wrote:
I can find no entry for masterwork clothing or outfits or anything of the sort, so you are in the realm of house-rules. If you are the GM, and you feel they should stack, then they stack. If you are a player, discuss it with your GM, and please accept his or her ruling without argument.

Look up masterwork tool. Apply that rule to masterwork clothes. Done.

One of my characters is wearing shady sunglasses for a +2 circumstance bonus to bluff. :D

And as I said, it is a house-rule, because it is not explicit in the rules. There is nothing wrong with house-rules, but in the Rules Questions section of the messageboards it is appropriate to distinguish between house rules and Rules As Written.


Tool, Masterwork

This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items do not stack.

from the PFSRD...

would clothes for impressing people not constitute "tools" of the trade then?

Or sunglasses as a "tool" to increase one's ability to bluff?

No condemnation, just curious as what then, as per RAW would constitute a "tool" for bluff or diplomacy?

Does it have to be an object that is held?

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's NOT a houserule. It's covered in the equipment section. They just didn't add a comprehensive list of every single possible masterwork tool for every skill.

I would think that a rule that is written in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook is certainly a 'Rule as Written'.


Actually, a tool is listed in the "tools and skill sets" section of the equipment chapter. Clothing is listed in its own section, and is thus not a tool. They did not list every possible masterwork tool, but they did define what a tool is.

House rules are anything which is not explicit in the rules, and it is not explicit in the rules that clothing is considered a tool. This does not mean that it is not a cool house rule, but it is a house rule.


Good good...

I have a character who's picked up a few different "tools" and I'd hate to think I was cheating the DM.

ex: faceblack for stealth, jewellery for diplomacy, etc..

edit: disregard the above then. >.<

So where is the "tool" definition?

edit2: and would a masterwork surgeon's tool give you a +3 or a +5? (since standard is +3 circumstance bonus)?


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

A masterwork tool is an "insert fluff here" item. Unless it is one of the clearly defined tools, like thieves tools, it is up to the DM to decide what it is. Saying a masterwork tool(diplomacy) is a set of clothes, is not a houserule. It is just a way to explain the unexplained.


dkonen wrote:

Good good...

I have a character who's picked up a few different "tools" and I'd hate to think I was cheating the DM.

ex: faceblack for stealth, jewellery for diplomacy, etc..

edit: disregard the above then. >.<

So where is the "tool" definition?

edit2: and would a masterwork surgeon's tool give you a +3 or a +5? (since standard is +3 circumstance bonus)?

You are not "cheating" your GM by using an item which he has ruled can be used in the way you are using it. Rule 0 is that whatever the GM says are the rules are the rules.

The definition is that items which are tools are found in the tools section. Items which are not tools are found in other sections.

I find no entry in any rulebook for "surgeon's tools". Such a tool would also be a house rule. Most tools do not give a bonus if they are not masterwork, they just allow one to use their related skill without a penalty (such as the -2 penalty to disable device for using improvised tools), the two exceptions I see are Alchemist's lab and magnifying glass, both of which don't list a masterwork version. If your GM rules that surgeon's tools exist, and they give you a +3 bonus (I assume on heal checks), and he rules that masterwork would give an additional +2, then that is how it works for his game. All of this is house-rules, as they are not explicit in the rulebook.


Sorry I have the equipment section of the PFSRD up in another window and I came across it, so I wondered if masterwork versions of tool that already apply... waitaminute....

Nevermind. It's 3am. Circumstance bonuses stack. Competence doesn't. Was getting my C bonuses mixed up >.<

Brain offline=bed.

Thanks for the heads up though, I'll get a DM clarification on it. Don't see it being an issue, but if it's a murky issue, best check first to avoid headaches later.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ta-dah!

It is indeed RAW to pay 50gp to increase your skill by +2. Calling it masterwork clothing is fluff.

This. Is. Not. A. House. Rule.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

1)"Damn fly boy, that suit is pimp!"
2)"It's just a tool of the game baby."


They are different bonus types so they stack.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Keep in mind that the Extremely Fashionable trait specifies that the clothing must cost 150 gp or more. The generic masterwork tool costs only 50 gp. I suppose you could buy three separate tools (masterwork slacks, masterwork shirt, masterwork cravat?) to get up to the 150 gp mark, but the tool bonuses wouldn't stack. The only clothing worth that much in the rules is the "Royal Outfit" worth 200 gp.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So you could wear a noble's outfit and 75gp worth of jewels, as well as a masterwork bow-tie which would give you your +2 circumstance bonus. Or masterwork cuff-links, or masterwork diamond broach.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Tales Subscriber
dkonen wrote:


edit2: and would a masterwork surgeon's tool give you a +3 or a +5? (since standard is +3 circumstance bonus)?

+3

Bonuses provided by multiple Masterwork tools don't stack and the surgeons tools only work in conjunction with a Healers Kit which is a MW tool (healing).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Tales Subscriber

RAW actually no clothes at all classify as MW tools as MW tools have a weight of 1 lb and none of the clothes has the same weight.

You could argue that they are made out of finer cloth - say half weight - that would give you MW Monk's Outfit or MW Peasant Outfit.

I just wanted to throw this in for all who love to argue RAW. If you argue RAW please go all the way. And no - as GM I wouldn't rule out the bonus due to impossible weight but I thought I throw this in here as arguing RAW can be a dangerous beast.

Yes - the bowtie and jewelry probably could be crafted in a way to fulfill RAW.

But more sirious again

That leaves the 'if any' clause. You already get a bonus thanks to your clothes - would you get it a second time under these circumstances or would it fall under 'none in these circumstances' as 'if any' is unfortunately none.

Related to this is - circumstance bonuses are what they are - dependent on circumstances. In which cases do clothes work and when is a GM justified to rule they don't.

Talking to a naked nymph in the woods - I doubt she is impressed by your shiny clothes. Having the latest style Taldoren noble outfit - don't try using this outfit in Cheliax.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

A hat can be any weight. Jewellery is another option.

The masterwork tool gives a circumstance bonus, while the fashionable trait gives a trait bonus. They stack.


Thod wrote:
dkonen wrote:


edit2: and would a masterwork surgeon's tool give you a +3 or a +5? (since standard is +3 circumstance bonus)?

+3

Bonuses provided by multiple Masterwork tools don't stack and the surgeons tools only work in conjunction with a Healers Kit which is a MW tool (healing).

It's not multiple, that's why the question. Surgeon's tools (normally without masterwork) give a +3 circumstance bonus on heal checks.

If they were made as a masterwork set, the +2 for being *masterwork* and then the +3 for being *surgeon's tools* would then stack as +5 (3 for the type of tools, 2 for being exceptionally well crafted.)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Tales Subscriber

Surgeon Tools

When in conjunction with a healers kit, surgeons tools raise the kits bonus to a +3 circumstance bonus.

So MW Surgeon Tools are multiple MW tools as they only work together with a Healers Kit. The Healers Kit is already a MW tool (healing) and MW bonus doesn't stack for the same skill.

So no luck for the +5 here.

Edit: Just to make it plain - a Surgeons Tool Without a Healer Kit would give you nothing at all for healing. It's in the description when you read the whole description.


Hm...needs more coffee then.

Pardon.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Speaking of masterwork tools, would some masterwork boots allow for a +2 Acrobatics check to tumble? :D

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Mergy wrote:

It's NOT a houserule. It's covered in the equipment section. They just didn't add a comprehensive list of every single possible masterwork tool for every skill.

I would think that a rule that is written in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook is certainly a 'Rule as Written'.

Clothes are not in the category of skill tools.

Clothes don't add to diplomacy rolls.

They can however SUBTRACT from them, such as the Noble who makes the mistake of going to two consecutive parties in the same. Or the PC who tries to pass himself off as a courtier by wearing the clothes without the expensive jewelry to complement it.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm sorry, where does it say clothes can't be masterwork tools?

Grand Lodge

Kalshane wrote:

I'm not sure where masterwork clothes are from, but if they exist, I would say they would stack with the trait.

From a RAW standpoint, they're two different bonuses, so they stack.

From a logic standpoint, it works as well. Say both Schlub the Fighter and Spiffy the Bard get dressed in their best (masterwork) clothes for the Duke's ball. The clothes generate a favorable (+2) impression for both of them. However, Spiffy's sense of style and bearing (Extremely Fashionable) allows him to make an even better (+1)impression. He just wears the clothes better.

I'd say from a RAW standpoint the added expense to the clothing is a prerequisite to use of the trait.

"Extremly fashionable
You really know how to make a good impression when you’re dressed well.
Benefit: Whenever you are wearing clothing and/or jewelry worth at least 150 gp (and not otherwise covered in gore, sewage, or other things that mar your overall look), you gain a +1 trait bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks. One of these skills (Diplomacy) is a class skill for you."

Adding MW Quality to clothing does seem like a way to artificially inflate the cost of clothing, but it is technically equipment and since the optional trait does make clothing a "tool" for use with a skill the MW Tool should apply. So while there is nothing in RAW that specifically says "You can add MW to clothes" I think it fits very well with the spirit of the RAW.

However, I would argue that they should not stack because the cost of the clothes is DIRECTLY the reason how the Trait works. For that reason I would think that since it is the trait that makes use of clothes as a tool, simply MW clothes would have no effect.

(Last edit I swear)
And according to the "Pathfinder Society Feats & Traits List" the Adventurer's Armory Trait "Extremely Fashionable" is an Equipment related trait, so clothes ARE equipment... so sayeth the Decemvirate


LazarX wrote:


Clothes are not in the category of skill tools.

Clothes don't add to diplomacy rolls.

They can however SUBTRACT from them, such as the Noble who makes the mistake of going to two consecutive parties in the same. Or the PC who tries to pass himself off as a courtier by wearing the clothes without the expensive jewelry to complement it.

So you can penalize your PCs for not wearing proper attire, but you can't give them an equipment bonus for spending some extra money on the clothes?

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The masterwork tool entry:

Quote:
This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items do not stack.

Now you're telling me that even if I can't relate an item to a skill check, I can't use it because it's made of cloth?

In the PFS adventure Assault on the Kingdom of the Impossible, there is a masterwork intimidate tool in the form of a mask: precedent.


Thod wrote:

Talking to a naked nymph in the woods - I doubt she is impressed by your shiny clothes.

Just because she doesn't care to wear any doesn't necessarily mean she doesn't appreciate the appearance of a sharply dressed human.


The definition of a Masterwork Tool is intentionally extremely broad.

It doesn't state what the item isn't, only that it must be "well made," "perfect for the job," and cost 50gp. It could be a hunk of cheese, a potted plant, or a pair of shoes. As long as it fits those three requirements.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

It does also say that a masterwork tool weighs 1 pound, so a whole set of clothes is probably out. Unless your character is a woman; then it could be something very small and thin...

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So just the hat is masterwork. Or just the broach.


RainyDayNinja wrote:

It does also say that a masterwork tool weighs 1 pound, so a whole set of clothes is probably out. Unless your character is a woman; then it could be something very small and thin...

Masterwork musical instruments has a fixed cost and weight, we know that it really isn't the case, I think this is more a guideline than anything.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Cards, Maps Subscriber

There are MW weapons. Table 6-4.
There are MW armors. Table 6-6.
There are MW adventuring gear that weigh more than 1 pound. Table 6-9.
There are MW tools that weigh more than 1 pound. Table 6-9

The Courtier's Outfit: This outfit includes fancy, tailored clothes in whatever fashion happens to be the current style in the courts of the nobles. Anyone trying to influence nobles or courtiers while wearing street dress will have a hard time of it (-2 penalty on Charisma-based skill checks to influence such individuals). If you wear this outfit without jewelry (costing an additional 50 gp), you look like an out-of-place commoner. Cost 30 gp, weighs 6 pounds.

All characters begin play with one outfit, valued at 10 gp or less.

So to avoid a -2 penalty to Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device. You need to get cleaned up, and spend 80 gp on clothes and jewelry, just to make a normal skill check vs anyone in the Upper Class.

Just like normal thieves' tools.

So MW thieves' tools would equal...(they weigh 2 pounds)

A Noble's Outfit, which cost 75 gp plus 100 gp worth of jewelry, that should give you a +2 circumstance bonus on Charisma-based skill checks to influence such individuals.(IMO) Weighs 10 pounds.

These outfits should also be only good for 10 uses. (Must be kept clean & fresh, no stains or tears.)

This would only work on the Upper Class, don't know about Middle Class or Lower Class or other races.

Also Artisan's outfit, Entertainer's outfit, Monk's outfit, and Peasant's outfit all weigh less that 1 pound (for a small character).

I would say not quite RAW, but definately RAI.

For a constant +2 circumstance buff you'd need a complete wardrobe to cover every Circumstance.


So you think a Bower should have multiple MW tools depending on what part or type of bow/arrow he is working on? How about a weaponsmith? shouldn't he have different sized hammers, tongs, etc for different types of weapons? Should your resident arcane knowledge expert be forced to carry an entire library for every different situation/challenge that could possibly come up or be penalized?

If your DM OKs an item for the MW +2 bonus to a skill, it should be generally considered that it will work for that skill. Yes, there are exceptions, but in general, your MW tool gives you a +2 to a skill, period.

Quantum Steve wrote:

The definition of a Masterwork Tool is intentionally extremely broad.

It doesn't state what the item isn't, only that it must be "well made," "perfect for the job," and cost 50gp. It could be a hunk of cheese, a potted plant, or a pair of shoes. As long as it fits those three requirements.

I think my next couple masterwork tools will be; 1) potted plant of intimidate (cactus), and 2) a potted plant of stealth (fern) :P

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
jonathan harvey 988 wrote:
LazarX wrote:


Clothes are not in the category of skill tools.

Clothes don't add to diplomacy rolls.

They can however SUBTRACT from them, such as the Noble who makes the mistake of going to two consecutive parties in the same. Or the PC who tries to pass himself off as a courtier by wearing the clothes without the expensive jewelry to complement it.

So you can penalize your PCs for not wearing proper attire, but you can't give them an equipment bonus for spending some extra money on the clothes?

That's not extra money, that's required and basic equipment for the political field. There's also no need for the bonus considering that PC's who get into the social field can get more than the Diplomacy bonus than they need anyway.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Queen Moragan wrote:

There are MW weapons. Table 6-4.

There are MW armors. Table 6-6.
There are MW adventuring gear that weigh more than 1 pound. Table 6-9.
There are MW tools that weigh more than 1 pound. Table 6-9

The Courtier's Outfit: This outfit includes fancy, tailored clothes in whatever fashion happens to be the current style in the courts of the nobles. Anyone trying to influence nobles or courtiers while wearing street dress will have a hard time of it (-2 penalty on Charisma-based skill checks to influence such individuals). If you wear this outfit without jewelry (costing an additional 50 gp), you look like an out-of-place commoner. Cost 30 gp, weighs 6 pounds.

All characters begin play with one outfit, valued at 10 gp or less.

So to avoid a -2 penalty to Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device. You need to get cleaned up, and spend 80 gp on clothes and jewelry, just to make a normal skill check vs anyone in the Upper Class.

Just like normal thieves' tools.

So MW thieves' tools would equal...(they weigh 2 pounds)

A Noble's Outfit, which cost 75 gp plus 100 gp worth of jewelry, that should give you a +2 circumstance bonus on Charisma-based skill checks to influence such individuals.(IMO) Weighs 10 pounds.

These outfits should also be only good for 10 uses. (Must be kept clean & fresh, no stains or tears.)

This would only work on the Upper Class, don't know about Middle Class or Lower Class or other races.

Also Artisan's outfit, Entertainer's outfit, Monk's outfit, and Peasant's outfit all weigh less that 1 pound (for a small character).

I would say not quite RAW, but definately RAI.

For a constant +2 circumstance buff you'd need a complete wardrobe to cover every Circumstance.

Actually, you just need to write "mwk tool (Diplomacy): 50gp" on your character sheet.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, the fluff is the problem, as there is not enough to satisfy everyone. The item is fine, and if you don't like someone else using fluff that you are uncomfortable with, don't use it. There are no rules broken here, it is not houserules, it is just fluff you are uncomfortable with.
OP: Different bonuses, so they stack.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

And if it is just the fluff that's bothering people, all you have to do is ignore the fluff and say "Welp, this is indeed the perfect Diplomacy tool. It is indeed the perfect tool for the job of Diplomacy. I can't imagine how I ever successfully Diplomatized without this perfectly made Diplomacy tool."


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Cards, Maps Subscriber

Just spend 50 gp to buy
"The PathFinder Guide to Proper Etiquette for Every Circumstance",
hard bound of course;P

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

As long as you study it every night before bed and put up with the taunts from your fellow party members. ;)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Cards, Maps Subscriber

Whoops on that last post.

Should have to study each morning for one hour.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Kalshane wrote:

I'm not sure where masterwork clothes are from, but if they exist, I would say they would stack with the trait.

They don't exist because clothes are not tools, weapons, or armor.

There are such things as Expensive clothes but they give no bonuses in high class social settings because they are minimal requirements to operate on par in those environments and provide no bonus otherwise.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

If you pry yourself away from the fluff, you will notice that the combo works.


Use something like this for diplomacy :

PF SRD wrote:

Perfume/Cologne

Source Adventurer's Armory

Perfume and cologne are common accessories for those who hope to avoid offending through scent. More expensive scents are available in finer quarters of any city. Exotic scents are sold in vials containing 10 applications, with a single dose lasting for 24 hours during which its wearer gains a +2 circumstance bonus on all Diplomacy checks (save for those against creatures who, at the GM’s discretion, would not be swayed by scent).

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
Kalshane wrote:

I'm not sure where masterwork clothes are from, but if they exist, I would say they would stack with the trait.

They don't exist because clothes are not tools, weapons, or armor.

There are such things as Expensive clothes but they give no bonuses in high class social settings because they are minimal requirements to operate on par in those environments and provide no bonus otherwise.

You're wrong.

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