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Human Knife Master Scout - the ultimate Pathfinder rogue!


Advice

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HUMAN KNIFE MASTER SCOUT
Rogue favored class alternative

NAME: Aedan (ay-den) Aelirin

ABILITIES: 20 points  
STR: 10, DEX: 19 +4, CON: 12 +1, INT: 14 +2, WIS: 12 +1, CHA: 8

ALIGNMENT: Lawful neutral
ROLE: Striker and scout. Local guide. Using wands.
INITIATIVE: +6
SKILL POINTS: 10 per level

TRAIT OPTIONS: Select 1 or 2 depending on your DM.
1. Reactionary (+2 initiative)
2. Deft dodger (+1 reflex save)
3. River rat (+1 dagger damage)
4. Dirty fighter (+1 flank damage)

FEATS, TALENTS AND CLASS FEATURES:
1 feat: two weapon fighting
1 human-bonus feat: dodge
2 rogue talent: finesse rogue
3 feat: weapon focus dagger
4 rogue talent: slow reactions
4 scout: scout’s charge
5 feat: disorienting maneuver 
6 rogue talent: offensive defense
6 favored class bonus talent: befuddling strike
7 feat: point blank shot
8 rogue talent: combat trick precise shot
8 scout: skirmisher
9 feat: skill focus(use magic device)
10 rogue talent: entanglement of blades
11 feat: charging hurler
12 rogue talent: crippling strike
12 favored class bonus talent: skill mastery
13 feat: far shot
14 rogue talent: magical aptitude

SKILLS: level 14
acrobatics = 17
acrobatics = 42 [with Boots of Elvenkind (+5), acrobatics exlir (+10), and skill mastery (take 10)] Skippy the Kangaroo.
appraise = 17
disable device = 17
escape artist = 17
knowledge (dungeoneering)= 17
knowledge (local) = 17
linguistics = 17
perception = 17
stealth = 17
use magical device = 27

WEAPONS OF CHOICE:
Two daggers
Throwing & Returning daggers
Short bow

SNEAK ATTACK OPTIONS:
1d8 with knives
1. Flank for SA (+2 hit)
2. Charge for SA (+2 hit). Charge again for SA with no OA.
3. Move through enemies square and SA (+2 hit)
4. Move 10ft and throw a knife for SA (+1 hit)
5. Move 10ft and melee attack for SA
6. Win initiative and throw two knifes for SA (+1 hit)
7. Charge 10ft throw for SA (+2 hit)

This build allows you to get ranged or melee SA every round using 1d8s, and max out your defenses, plus add debilitating effects.
Make sure you have max acrobatics to make use of disorientating maneuvers and use Acrobatic exlirs for +10 acrobatics, as well as Boots of Elvenkind for +5.
Charge spam for SA, with no AoO against you.
Throw daggers for SA that instantly return to your hand.
Somersault over enemies while stabbing them in the back for SA.
Use spring loaded wrist braces to hold wands or daggers of spell holding.
The thematics are awesome.

SUGGESTED EQUIPMENT:
Boots of Elvenkind +5 Acrobatics
Exlirs of acrobatics +10 Acrobatics
Belt of incredible dexterity
Efficient Quiver
Glove of storing
Wrist braces, spring loaded
A +1 alchemical silver light mace
cold-iron daggers
wooden stake
adamantine daggers 
Holy water, alchemist's fire, thunderstones, smokesticks, sunrods 
Mithral Chain Shirt 

SUGGESTED WANDS:
align weapon
protect from evil
shield
obscuring mist
silent image
reduce person
resist energy
mirror image
blindness
cats grace
alter self
knock
darkvision
invisibility

USEFUL DAGGERS:
Cold Iron
Spell storing
Menacing
Ghost touch
Throwing
Returning
Disruption
Speed
Transformative
Vorpal
Merciful (for non lethal)

Sneak freak...stab first, ask questions later!!


Interesting. I need to think about it for a while but it's certainly interesting.

Nice catch on blades of entaglement, I missed it up until now, thanks, it's very good.

You should consider, if allowed, the agile weapon property to add dex to damage instead of str.

Still, every time I try to come up with an effective rogue I'm put down by the low to hit. Also, while you have plenty of way to get in at least one sneak attack per round, that's hardly enough: I'm not sure that I would specialize so much in it.
Lot of options though: maybe not the best damage dealer in the game (but no rogue is) but seems interesting to play.


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You can only have more than two traits if you take the feat that gives you extra traits.

How are you getting two rogue talents instead of one at the same time?

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yes waht´s bonus rogue talent?

Cheliax

Human Rogues can take 1/6 rogue talent per level as favorite class bonus.


That means that for every 6 favored class points they get one extra talent. This build has an extra talent at levels 4, 6, 8, and 12.
I check the knifemaster, and the scout archetypes, and unless I missed something neither one gives out bonus talents.

Grand Lodge

And I dont think you can take weapon focus at level 1 either

Shadow Lodge

From the traits chapter: "When selecting traits, you may not select more than one from the same list of traits (the four basic traits each count as a separate list for this purpose)."

Reactionary, Deft Dodger, and Dirty Fighter are all "Combat Traits" so you can only take one of them.


wraithstrike wrote:

That means that for every 6 favored class points they get one extra talent. This build has an extra talent at levels 4, 6, 8, and 12.

I check the knifemaster, and the scout archetypes, and unless I missed something neither one gives out bonus talents.

At level 4 and 8 he marked the replacements for Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge as Scout talents. Those are not actually talents.

The bonus talents at 6 and 12 are from the favored class, that's fine.

Ogre, the Traits listed are only options. He can only take two of them anyway, and the ones you listed are mutually exclusive. So it's River Rat and one of the three you listed.


Weapon Focus needs to be moved to later, but I like the idea. It's certainly a better looking Rogue for combat utility than I'm used to seeing. I'd definitely use a Spellstoring dagger and a wand with CL 5 Shocking Grasp (not that expensive) to nova a little more on the first round.


all fixed!!


Wow I thought you couldn't take two archetypes but it isn't perfect. It is very close to perfect. But without trap finding you can't disable magic traps.


I doubt he wants to do trapfinding with this rogue. This looks to be a pure SA dmg dealer, for him to get as many options to apply his crazy SA to.

Also, the Swyped of subtlety ads +4 to atk/dmg for SA. Perhaps have a custom set of daggers to have that ability on them...btw, it's blur that is the spell used to craft the sword of subtlety. Sniper goggles allow you to make your ranged AS from any distance now, instead of the normal 30'. When doing ranged SA within 30' with those goggles, you know get a +2 competence bonus to EACH SA die. Not bad at all.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
SolidHalo wrote:
Wow I thought you couldn't take two archetypes but it isn't perfect. It is very close to perfect. But without trap finding you can't disable magic traps.

There are spells for that.


One level of trapper ranger could take care of that too.


You can take two archetypes as long as they don't alter/replace the same class features, I believe.

Andoran

Sylvanite wrote:
You can take two archetypes as long as they don't alter/replace the same class features, I believe.

This is correct.

Lantern Lodge

Interesting concept however it won't add up mechanically.

What's the point of taking disorienting maneuver when you plan on tossing daggers everywhere?

What's the point of two-weapon fighting when you plan on being mobile?

Why not dual wield kukris?

Three feats and Two magical enhancements are spent on throwing two daggers. What happens when you have three attacks or more a round?

Instead, you should make a STR based falchion wielding scout. Say a sand raider or the old indian in last of the mohicans. The point buy would be something like this:
Str: 18 (+2 race)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Cha 8

Eventually pick up heavier armors when you can afford mithril.

Comparing the numbers, your scout at 10th level moving will have an attack like this:

Number Crunch:

+1 throwing returning dagger: +17 (+7 base, +1 magic, +1WF, +6 stat, +2 disorienting maneuver or skirmish)
Avg. Damage: 27 (2.5 dice + 22.5 SA + 1 River Rat + 1 magic)
Crit Range: 19-20x2

While a falchion scout looks like this:
+2 keen falchion: +16 (+7 base, + 2 magic, +1WF, +6 stat, +2 disorienting maneuver or skirmish, -2 Power Attack)
Avg. Damage: 37.5 (5 dice, + 17.5 SA + 2 magic + 9 stat + 6 Power Attack)
Crit. Range: 15-20x2

Plus this scout has more room for feats because he's not burning them on two-weapon fighting and throwing techniques. These feats could be used for proficiencies, utility feats, and acrobatics buffs.


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Hi Kaisc006.
I agree that a falchion does more damage.

The reason I like this build is that:

1. I plan to play this to 20th level so I need many attack options to keep the character interesting, rather than just being a flanker.
2. I can stand and fight full attacks while locking enemies down.
3. If injured I can retreat and throw daggers.
4. I can fight on my own without flanking.
5. I can collect cool daggers and wands.
6. The DM always alters the monsters depending on the strength of the party so focusing on maximizing damage output is a waste of time.
7. The thematic of stabbing and throwing daggers is fun. Nothing beats throwing a dagger across a room to kill someone and have the dagger fly back into your hands, or back flipping over an enemy and stabbing them in the back while doing so. It's cool.

Imagine your two daggers spring load from your wrists into your hands. You throw them across the room killing an enemy and they return to your hands. You charge another plunging your dagger into his back. Flip over them and stab them again killing them. Charge 10ft and throw another dagger to kill another enemy across the room. Then flank another enemy with the fighter and repeatedly stab him to death...Fun.

Lantern Lodge

Haha ok I figured with all this information on a build and a title like the ultimate pathfinder rogue you might have been looking for optimization puposes :)

Sczarni

I like it. I've been trying to work out the exact same concept without much success. I'll have to take a closer look later but so far so good. Great job!


Better option: Get those spring loaded wrist sheaths enchanted as a scabbard of vigor occupying the wrist slot (that would be a custom job as it is a belt slot usually). This turns non-magical daggers into +4 weapons for 1 round, so you don't have to buy returning daggers.


Also consider the Deft Palm + Underhanded combo, as this allows you max damage on the first attack with those d8s.


Aren't spring loaded wrist sheaths used as a swift action? How do you do two in a round? Might as well make them regular wrist sheaths and take the quickdraw feat.


One dagger per wrist gets you 2 in a round. I think the spring loading is a way of buying quickdraw.


For a build like this I would use
merciful daggers
adept Sapper
Master Sapper
and Sniper Goggles


One dagger is a swift action. You only get one swift action in a round. Two daggers is two swift actions. Can't purchase the feat for multiple weapons.

Sap Master doesn't work with piercing weapons like daggers, only with blunt weapons.

I really feel like a wet blanket today.


Actually Quickdraw feat allows it to be a free action not a swift to draw a weapon. So if spring loaded supplements Quickdraw then it is still fine. Sorry your blanket appears dry warm and fuzzy hehe.

Qadira

ill dampen that blanket right back up
a spring loaded wrist sheath
This item works like a standard wrist sheath, but releasing an item from it is an swift action. Preparing the sheath for this use requires cranking the sheath’s tiny gears and springs into place (a fullround action that provokes an attack of opportunity).

has nothing to do with quick draw
You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.

when oterisk mentioned buying the feat he meant it is a way to not take the feat and still be able to draw a weapon and full attack. in this case where the sheaths are mechanized even quick draw wouldn't help. you would actually want to go back to normal wrist sheaths to use quick draw effectively.

sincerely yours,
guy with bucket o water.

Shadow Lodge

And if you combine the spring loaded wrist sheath description with this line from the CRB?

CRB wrote:

If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can

draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would
normally take you to draw one.

Two-weapon fighting used to be two feats (two-weapon fighting and ambidextrous). If you can draw one dagger as a swift with a single SLWS, then 2wf should let you get two for the same action. I'd prefer to get an official ruling, but that's how I'd interpret it.


2 Words: Agile Enchantment...


This character looks awesome. I would make him a halfling. And keep spare daggers hidden in an Afro. Like.... Carrot Top afro!


New Bravo's Guide to the Knife Master Scout

View here.

Silver Crusade

It's an interesting build, but you really should be using kukri for your melee attacks. Also, I think by trying to keep it interesting, you're trying to do too much and you won't be good at anything. Unless you are tied to all of the rogue talents you selected, you can get Weapon Focus via rogue talent and open up a feat slot, FYI.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Cool build. I am always on the look out for knife thrower character build ideas. Not much for min/max my characters but I think knife throwing does not git much love in pathfinder.


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I will say that I do not understand why you need to put throwing on your daggers as they have a 10ft throw range by default. I have a knife throwing character 15pt buy and I took the feats to let him use starknives. And instead of a belt of DEX I gave him a blinkback belt and quickdraw and used ioun stones for STR and DEX bonuses. As for traits I chose "Strong Arm, Supple Wrist" to make it so his starknives have a 30 foot range pretty much. And as he levels up more(only level 10) I am probably going to go down the route of Vital Strike feat progression. Also I gave him Improved Feint and Greater Feint to compensate in case he ever runs into an enemy with uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge.


You will need Quick draw to throw more than 1 dagger thought the Wrist Sheaths take the Move action out of the hidden weapons. He gets the Draw action normally as part of the Move action or Free Action with Quick Draw so that he could use A full Attack at Range if he wanted too...

But other Wise Quick Draw is really a waste unless he is providing Flanking at range if he is Providing Flanking at range he will need it throw a dagger for every attack but that is the only thing I saw missing.


You should name this guy Danny Trejo.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
badryukun wrote:
I will say that I do not understand why you need to put throwing on your daggers as they have a 10ft throw range by default. I have a knife throwing character 15pt buy and I took the feats to let him use starknives. And instead of a belt of DEX I gave him a blinkback belt and quickdraw and used ioun stones for STR and DEX bonuses. As for traits I chose "Strong Arm, Supple Wrist" to make it so his starknives have a 30 foot range pretty much. And as he levels up more(only level 10) I am probably going to go down the route of Vital Strike feat progression. Also I gave him Improved Feint and Greater Feint to compensate in case he ever runs into an enemy with uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge.

Yeah, throwing is a waste of money on a dagger, they already have a 10 range increment for throwing.


Being human means he gets 11 skills per level.

Cheliax

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Vamptastic wrote:
You should name this guy Danny Trejo.

Navajas

Qadira

So no trapfinding...no trap sense....no uncanny dodge or improved uncanny dodge.....
Not much of a "rogue" in my opinion. Decent knife fighter, but not really an "Ultimate Pathfinder Rogue".


Mata Vaha wrote:

HUMAN KNIFE MASTER SCOUT

Rogue favored class alternative
...

One of my PCs has been doing this for our most recent campaign. Except he's using two +1 Keen Kukris. He doesn't actually dual wield much, if ever, and his talent/feat selection is a tad different, but the build is disgusting. We're doing Rise of the Runelords and he damn near 1-shotted a boss once. >.<

I had an idea for a Cleaving Knifemaster Kukri Rogue that might interest folk too. Orc Fighter 1 / Rogue 19. The basic idea is to get Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Surprise Follow Through, and Improved Surprise Follow Through.

Improved Surprise Follow Through:
-Benefit: When using Great Cleave, each opponent you attack on your turn (other than the first) is denied his Dexterity bonus against you.

So yeah...cleaving d8 sneak attack doom? Might be an idea :P

That said, Knifemaster Scout = A rogue that's outdoing my Mobile Fighter with an Elven Curveblade.


Fake Healer wrote:

So no trapfinding...no trap sense....no uncanny dodge or improved uncanny dodge.....

Not much of a "rogue" in my opinion. Decent knife fighter, but not really an "Ultimate Pathfinder Rogue".

in that case awesome! my barbarian/archaeologist bard is the ultimate pathfinder rogue, because those class features are the only things that make rogues rogues!

Qadira

AndIMustMask wrote:
Fake Healer wrote:

So no trapfinding...no trap sense....no uncanny dodge or improved uncanny dodge.....

Not much of a "rogue" in my opinion. Decent knife fighter, but not really an "Ultimate Pathfinder Rogue".
in that case awesome! my barbarian/archaeologist bard is the ultimate pathfinder rogue, because those class features are the only things that make rogues rogues!

You are correct, I stated clearly that ONLY those things make a rogue into a rogue. Wearing your ass as a hat must be fun!

When someone uses the rogue class and strips away most of the stuff that defines it as a rogue then they may as well not say they are a rogue. I mean great he kept sneak attack and the skillset...mostly. That isn't all a rogue is. Some archetypes can be very roguish and even do most of the job better than a rogue, but when you take the rogue class and purposely strip away most of the important features that set the rogue apart I don't think it is cool to say "hey, look! I made the ultimate rogue". No you didn't. You made a dude that does good DPR when flanking by giving up most of the rogue's special things.


Fake Healer wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
Fake Healer wrote:

So no trapfinding...no trap sense....no uncanny dodge or improved uncanny dodge.....

Not much of a "rogue" in my opinion. Decent knife fighter, but not really an "Ultimate Pathfinder Rogue".
in that case awesome! my barbarian/archaeologist bard is the ultimate pathfinder rogue, because those class features are the only things that make rogues rogues!

You are correct, I stated clearly that ONLY those things make a rogue into a rogue. Wearing your ass as a hat must be fun!

When someone uses the rogue class and strips away most of the stuff that defines it as a rogue then they may as well not say they are a rogue. I mean great he kept sneak attack and the skillset...mostly. That isn't all a rogue is. Some archetypes can be very roguish and even do most of the job better than a rogue, but when you take the rogue class and purposely strip away most of the important features that set the rogue apart I don't think it is cool to say "hey, look! I made the ultimate rogue". No you didn't. You made a dude that does good DPR when flanking by giving up most of the rogue's special things.

I disagree, but to each his own I suppose.

Cheliax

I'd suggest picking up point blank shot earlier. maybe swap it with weapon focus. yo don't need that many skills. swap str and int, or split the difference. str adds to damage.

don't forget you can rapid shot and twf.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

It depends on how you define a rogue. If you want to define a rogue as a someone to kill people fast via charging, this is your guy. If you want define it as someone who is able to save the entire party from a lethal trap, Not at all. Archaeologist Bard is more of a rogue than this guy going by the trap/skill standard. Barbarian is more of a rogue than this guy going by the kill people fast by charging standard.


How are you getting to get sneak attack by moving through an enemy's space?

Sczarni

There are a lot of people saying "you should be using Kukri's instead of daggers". Maybe on a STR based build. Maybe. I did the math and Daggers with River Rat trait out damages Kukri's until the static damage bonuses that are multiplied on critical hits get into the double digits.

Not surprisingly the +1 damage from River Rat is better than the +5% crit chance (+10% when keen) offered by the kukri. Plus the kukri is a martial weapon, which will cost a Rogue a feat or talent to earn proficiency. Plus daggers have a listed range increment.

So for the purposes of THIS build, Daggers are far, far better. If you're building a STR based full BAB class that gets static hit & damage bonuses the Kukri is better. The Full BAB reduces the amount of static damage modifiers that are needed for the kukri to catch and surpass the Dagger + River Rat combo.

But yeah, for Rogues, even STR based rogues, the Kukri won't outperform the Dagger + RR when the levels are capped at 12.

Also, for those interested, feats that trade attack bonus for damage bonus (power attack/Pirhana strike/deadly aim) actually reduced DPR in almost all instances when I ran these numbers with the 3/4 BAB class.

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