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Homebrew and House Rules

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I am not the best person to ask for that; finding specific things on these boards is something I am still slowly learning. But, I believe, there is a link somewhere in this thread.

MA


Ssalarn wrote:
Not to be combative, but can you show me a post, anywhere more recent than SKR's two year old comment from 7 months before the APG released with a version of the Brass Knuckles that specifically states a monk can use his Unarmed Strike damage with them, indicating this? All current Eratta, FAQs, and published materials reflect Brass Knuckles allowing a monk to use his UAS damage in conjunction with them.

This isn't SKR's post, but they did change the Brass Knuckles for Ultimate Equipment.

Ravennus wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Ravennus wrote:


Nor did we get any fixes, errata, or re-balancing.... which truthfully really shocks me.

I'd be very careful with blanket statements like that. Staff prices were fixed, from what I see in previews.

Ok, you're right again. Thanks for living on these forums 24/7 and nitpicking every word I say.

I'll amend my previous blanket statement, because I also noticed they included the errata to Brass Knuckles. Too bad there are still so many other issues left untouched.


OMG!! Quoted from another thread for Awesomeness!

Quoted Post

Brambleman wrote:

Glad this thread is still alive.

Hmmm......

This was a triumph.
I'm making a note here: HUGE SUCCESS.
It's hard to overstate my satisfaction.
Homebrewing Science!
We do what we must
because we can.
For the good of all of us.
Well, just the ones on this thread.

But there's no sense crying over those you can't please.
You just keep on trying till you run out of cheese.
And the Science gets done.
And you make a neat monk.
For the people who are still alive.

Now these points of data make a beautiful line.
And we used psionics.
And I guess they work fine.
Even though the thread burned.
Think of all the things we learned
for the people who are still alive.

Go ahead and leave me.
I think I prefer to stay inside.
Maybe you'll find something else to help you.
Maybe Eratta.
THAT WAS A JOKE.
HAHA. FAT CHANCE.
Anyway, this monk is great.
It's so adaptive and fun.

Look at me still talking
when there's Science to do.
When I look at Core, it makes me GLaD I Home-Brew.
I've experiments to run.
There is stat-blocks to be done.
For the people who are still alive.
And believe me I am still alive.
I'm doing Science and I'm still alive.
I'm leaving comments and I'm still alive.
I feel FANTASTIC this thread's still alive.
STILL ALIVE!!
STILL ALIVE!!...

Paizo Employee Design Manager

master arminas wrote:

I am not the best person to ask for that; finding specific things on these boards is something I am still slowly learning. But, I believe, there is a link somewhere in this thread.

MA

The only one I was able to find sifting through this thread was the one from SKR, which (as I mentioned previously) is outdated by the material in the APG. Since the APG has been out for almost 2 years now and there's no FAQ or Errata reflecting any change to the Brass Knuckles presented there-in, I'm inclined to think that they are intended to work as listed.

The issue Sean was addressing arose because around 3 years ago, the weapons tables listed spiked gauntlets, brass knuckles, and one or two other weapons as Unarmed Attacks rather than light weapons, which created this big hulla-baloo about whether Stunning Fist, monk unarmed damage and various other abilities could be used through a spiked gauntlet, to which SKR responded "Those should be categorized as light weapons, not Unarmed Attacks..." etc. etc.

7 months later, The Advanced Player's Guide released with a new version of the Brass Knuckles that was both listed as a light weapon, and had the caveate in ints description that it could use the monks UAS damage in place of its own. This might be a situation where a perfectly good item has been getting neglected because of outdated information.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

@ Tels

Super weak sauce.....
They just refuse to allow you to pair your UAS damage with anything other than that craptastic AoMF don't they? Unless you're a Zen Archer who can UAS through your arrows, of course.

There's a thought, maybe monks should have a 1 point ki power that allows them to sub in their UAS damage for their weapon damage for a round.


The sadness, Ssalarn, is that just about every combat class can now out-do the monk at unarmed combat with Brawling armour and brass knuckles and other fun and games.

I always thought that ki-focus should allow unarmed damage through weapons, but then that would trump the AoMF which apparently is not to happen. I can totally get that they don't want any unarmed enhancement options for certain things like animal companions, but to be effective in combat the monk needs something.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Dabbler wrote:

The sadness, Ssalarn, is that just about every combat class can now out-do the monk at unarmed combat with Brawling armour and brass knuckles and other fun and games.

I always thought that ki-focus should allow unarmed damage through weapons, but then that would trump the AoMF which apparently is not to happen.

That golden cow infuriates me to no end. I personally think the AoMF is retarded as the monk "weapon" of choice. I honestly never even thought of it as "the" monk item until a developer in a thread here said that it was the intended way for monks to gain enchantments to their UAS. We'd only ever used it on animal companions or as a cool damage buff item on enemies that used natural attacks and slams.

Of course, I was operating under the assumption that Brass Knuckles were the "go to" weapons for monks, but that's just silly since it makes sense.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Dabbler wrote:


I always thought that ki-focus should allow unarmed damage through weapons, but then that would trump the AoMF which apparently is not to happen. I can totally get that they don't want any unarmed enhancement options for certain things like animal companions, but to be effective in combat the monk needs something.

I thought that their body wrap item would have been fine if they'd removed the retarded limited number of attacks restrictions and just required a minimum ki pool to gain its bonuses, personally. I'd be willing to sacrifice the Monk's Robes for a solid offensive item that wasn't near worthless. "Here's a bodyslot item that replaces the only other good monk item for this slot. And oh, it''ll only ever work for half your attacks. Aren't you grateful?"

I started on the side of this argument thinking that monks were pretty solid as is, and this attitude that devs have something against the monk was just a bunch of fan-boy exaggeration, but I honestly wonder if they really do have something against the class, between stripping away gear that actually made sense and was useful and replacing it with crap that'll rarely see its way to a table, unless it's a random loot drop destined for the "sell" bin.


Hold up, Ssalarn, it's that exact attitude that many of us, myself included, have expressed that pissed off the Developers already. We really need to lay off on comments like that as all it does is build resentment on either side of the debate.


Let's wait and see what they come up with. We've backed up our arguments with a hell of a lot of very solid maths, character designs and the like, so hopefully the issues have been clearly illuminated.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Tels wrote:
Hold up, Ssalarn, it's that exact attitude that many of us, myself included, have expressed that pissed off the Developers already. We really need to lay off on comments like that as all it does is build resentment on either side of the debate.

Sorry, I posted that and immediately felt it was a bit harsh (in addition to rehashing old arguments). I almost kind of feel like the monk should have just been noted as an "advanced" class and left at that. I don't know...

It seems that there is this feeling that the monk is fine just as it is, and if enough cookies are thrown out, the issues will just disappear. Closing off one of the only items that allowed for worthwhile monk non-STR combat builds led to a bit of a reaction from me I guess.
Apologies again.


Besides Tels posted a monk who could make great use of the robes. And you DM would find great use of his core rule book as a club for you trying to play it.


As a note would anyone have an issue with a monk getting to add vital strike as a bonus feat at 6/10/15? One of my players is asking for a skirmish build and i figured I would ask you guys.

Liberty's Edge

Gorbacz wrote:
master arminas wrote:
Do that with a monk of the same level. Fighting with weapons or unarmed. Come close to that with a monk of the same level.
This thread is full of Monks that come close or better.

Correct me if I am wrong, but those are using the pre-correction FoB rules.

I just searched by monk


Talonhawke wrote:
As a note would anyone have an issue with a monk getting to add vital strike as a bonus feat at 6/10/15? One of my players is asking for a skirmish build and i figured I would ask you guys.

I would actually add Vital Strike at 1st, Improved at 6th, and Greater at 10th. Since you get your normal (medium BAB) while moving and you cannot use vital strike on a charge or in combination with the Spring Attack Feat. Hitting might still be a problem (this is one situation where the bodywraps of mighty striking would be good, though) but you could definately deliver some damage.

MA


Vital Strike as fine... as long as you limit the weapon damage scaling to avoid Captain Falcon-esque damage.

Remember, there's a belief that Enlarge Person and Lead Blades don't stack because Enlarge Person increase your size, and Lead Blades causes melee weapons to deal damage as if one size category larger. We know size bonuses don't stack, so there's some argument that those two spells don't stack. However, Animal Aspect simply says it increases your damage die by one step.

But at the same time, part of what made Captain Falcon hit so hard was 5 levels of fighter, since he got Weapon Focus/Specilization and Weapon Training. A straight 20 Monk isn't going to have those bonuses, even if he has Vital Strike, so he'll have less bonuses to hit.

If you want him to be a good striker classes, I don't see anything wrong with allowing Vital Strike as bonus feats, but you might also allow Vital Strike on Spring Attack and Charges too.


Ssalarn wrote:
I started on the side of this argument thinking that monks were pretty solid as is, and this attitude that devs have something against the monk was just a bunch of fan-boy exaggeration, but I honestly wonder if they really do have something against the class, between stripping away gear that actually made sense and was useful and replacing it with crap that'll rarely see its way to a table, unless it's a random loot drop destined for the "sell" bin.

This is pretty much how I feel too.

"Paizo hates monks" may be an exaggeration, but it sounds more and more true as the time passes. Maybe martial can't have nice things, but monks apparently can't even have mediocre stuff.

Ultimate Equipment and its bodywraps and brawling armor just add insult to the injury.


master arminas wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
As a note would anyone have an issue with a monk getting to add vital strike as a bonus feat at 6/10/15? One of my players is asking for a skirmish build and i figured I would ask you guys.

I would actually add Vital Strike at 1st, Improved at 6th, and Greater at 10th. Since you get your normal (medium BAB) while moving and you cannot use vital strike on a charge or in combination with the Spring Attack Feat. Hitting might still be a problem (this is one situation where the bodywraps of mighty striking would be good, though) but you could definately deliver some damage.

MA

I dunno, Vital Strike has a BAB pre-req of +6 so giving it at first level might be seen as unfair to some. Maybe give it BAB +6 or Monk level 6 would do fine?


Lemmy wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
I started on the side of this argument thinking that monks were pretty solid as is, and this attitude that devs have something against the monk was just a bunch of fan-boy exaggeration, but I honestly wonder if they really do have something against the class, between stripping away gear that actually made sense and was useful and replacing it with crap that'll rarely see its way to a table, unless it's a random loot drop destined for the "sell" bin.

This is pretty much how I feel too.

"Paizo hates monks" may be an exaggeration, but it sounds more and more true as the time passes. Maybe martial can't have nice things, but monks apparently can't even have mediocre stuff.

Ultimate Equipment and its bodywraps and brawling armor just add insult to the injury.

I know everyone wants to add in their 2 cents, but please, we need to stop making these comments.


Tels wrote:
master arminas wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
As a note would anyone have an issue with a monk getting to add vital strike as a bonus feat at 6/10/15? One of my players is asking for a skirmish build and i figured I would ask you guys.

I would actually add Vital Strike at 1st, Improved at 6th, and Greater at 10th. Since you get your normal (medium BAB) while moving and you cannot use vital strike on a charge or in combination with the Spring Attack Feat. Hitting might still be a problem (this is one situation where the bodywraps of mighty striking would be good, though) but you could definately deliver some damage.

MA

I dunno, Vital Strike has a BAB pre-req of +6 so giving it at first level might be seen as unfair to some. Maybe give it BAB +6 or Monk level 6 would do fine?

Maybe Vital at 4th, Improved at 10th, and Greater (as a bonus feat selection) at 14th or 16th? I'm easy.

MA


Tels wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
I started on the side of this argument thinking that monks were pretty solid as is, and this attitude that devs have something against the monk was just a bunch of fan-boy exaggeration, but I honestly wonder if they really do have something against the class, between stripping away gear that actually made sense and was useful and replacing it with crap that'll rarely see its way to a table, unless it's a random loot drop destined for the "sell" bin.

This is pretty much how I feel too.

"Paizo hates monks" may be an exaggeration, but it sounds more and more true as the time passes. Maybe martial can't have nice things, but monks apparently can't even have mediocre stuff.

Ultimate Equipment and its bodywraps and brawling armor just add insult to the injury.

I know everyone wants to add in their 2 cents, but please, we need to stop making these comments.

K, sorry about that... It's just easy to get carried away...


You know, over in another thread asking about guided weapons, I finally read the description.

Guided Weapon Property

This is what caught my attention:

Quote:
This modifier to damage is not adjusted for two-handed weapons or off-hand weapons—it always remains equal to the wielder’s Wisdom modifier. A guided weapon may be wielded as a normal weapon, using Strength to modify attack and damage rolls, but this goes against the weapon’s nature and imparts a –2 penalty on all attack rolls made in this manner.

Sound familiar to anything? Flurry of blows maybe? Perhaps we should revisit giving the idea of giving the monk this ability at 1st or 2nd level. Should it be limited to unarmed strikes or unarmed strikes and monk weapons though? It would definately reduce MAD (although I still would not recommend dumping Strength, it would make it easier to focus the character).

Ideas?

MA

Liberty's Edge

Tels wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
I started on the side of this argument thinking that monks were pretty solid as is, and this attitude that devs have something against the monk was just a bunch of fan-boy exaggeration, but I honestly wonder if they really do have something against the class, between stripping away gear that actually made sense and was useful and replacing it with crap that'll rarely see its way to a table, unless it's a random loot drop destined for the "sell" bin.

This is pretty much how I feel too.

"Paizo hates monks" may be an exaggeration, but it sounds more and more true as the time passes. Maybe martial can't have nice things, but monks apparently can't even have mediocre stuff.

Ultimate Equipment and its bodywraps and brawling armor just add insult to the injury.

I know everyone wants to add in their 2 cents, but please, we need to stop making these comments.

I think if the Devs were surprised that people were upset with the bodywrap, they don't agree with the community about the nature of the issue.

That is fair game for discussion.

Ultimate Equipment is a strong book. My copy arrived yesterday, I've been pouring through it and I think it is great. I have no regrets buying it, I would recommend it as a must have for serious players.

But the wraps were completely out of touch, and if the Devs didn't realize that they would cause an uproar, they should have.

Getting mad at the community for not liking the product is backwards.


I think, if criticism over a product came from another corner of the community (i.e. not the Monk fan part) it would be better received. As it stands, I think there may be some resentment towards the Monk fans and that any criticism, ideas, suggestions etc, may, at this point, be taken in the worst possible like. Such as bashing the books/idea, telling the developer how to do their job, giving the impression we don't respect them and so on and so on.

I don't know for sure if there is any resentment, but it is something I'm afraid may have developed. I'd just like to see the Monk community be less negative and more encouraging.

I'm not innocent of the behavior myself. I made a kicked puppy comment in reference to the Monk when UE came out, and I regret that now. It was a knee jerk reaction, and one I should have just kept shut about.

However, the Monk community has a habit of doing this. When errata, books, supplements or other such products come out, you usually see an increase in Monk threads complaining about the Monk and how 'such and such' book makes the Monk more weak, or insults the Monk or further weakens the Monk.

Why should the Developers keep trying to do nice things for the Monk, if everything they do is harshly criticized by the Monk fans that are willing to speak?

Fighter fans don't get angry when Fighter stuff is released. Neither do Barbarian or Paladin or Ranger or Bard or Wizard fans. I can't help but wonder if all the 'non-Monk love' sentiment we perceive, is directly influenced by the Monk community?

What if there is someone who has really great ideas for the Monk working at Paizo right now, but is afraid to voice them because of how vocal the Monk community is? What if he's afraid his idea of a possible patch/fix will receive nothing but scorn from the Monk community? We have a habit of doing so, so such a fear isn't without precedent.

My point being, we need to actively reign in our negative feelings about anything that has happened in the past, and try and focus on the future.

For instance, the Body Wraps of Mighty Strike weren't specifically for the Monk. Sure, it's an item that enhances unarmed strikes, but it was mentioned that they try not to release items for a single class, and a single class only. True, there are many exemptions to this, like the Amulet of Mage Craft, but most of said items don't so drastically change the outcome of combat like a purely Monk enhancement item could for the Monk.

Sean and Jason promised something would be done in the future about the Monk. I know Sean is angry (and probably hurt) with us (how much so, I don't know), but I have full confidence that the design team will come through on the promise to release something for the Monk.

When that time comes, I, personally, would like to see less diatribe and more positive reinforcement.


Tels wrote:
Fighter fans don't get angry when Fighter stuff is released. Neither do Barbarian or Paladin or Ranger or Bard or Wizard fans. I can't help but wonder if all the 'non-Monk love' sentiment we perceive, is directly influenced by the Monk community?

Those fans don't complain like Monk fans do because their core class isn't broken.

You don't put a bandaid on a tumor and expect it to work. (ie: Additional options don't fix core problems.)

The classes that seem to complain the most on the boards are Monks and Rogues.
Rogues aren't broken, but other classes' options have made them obsolete and nothing has come out for the Rogue to fix that.
Monks have technical problems, and until those technical problems are fixed, nothing new and flavorful that comes out matters, because the broken part hasn't been replaced yet.


That's not the point. The point I was trying to make was comparing the fan bases. A Fighter fan isn't going to go reading through a new book, and throw a hissy fit because one option was 'weaker' than another option. A Monk fan is likely to do so.

Example, no one really likes the clarification/Errata that says Vital Strike is a Standard Action and can't be combined with a Charge or Spring Attack. Sure, there was an uproar, but once all is said and done, people accepted it. We moan about it every once in awhile, but no one really gets angry.

People are still furious and complain about the Brass Knuckles Errata preventing Monks from using their unarmed damage with Brass Knuckles.

Certainly, part of that is because Figheres have so many options on being an effective combat class, and the Monk is very limited, but the reaction from the Fighter fan base is less hostile than the Monk fan base.

No one is scared of submitting a Fighter idea for fear of huge negative reactions on the forums. But it's entirely possible people are afraid of doing the same for the Monk.

The Monk fan base is, dare I say it, the most vocal 'group' in regards to their group of the Paizo posters. When a Monk thread pops up, I can be assured that myself, Master Arminas, Dabbler, Lord Wraithstrike, Ciretose and several others are likely to show up in that thread to offer their advice, comments or ideas.

We know what we think the Monk needs, and we voice that at nearly every opportunity to make sure people don't forget. But there's also people that jump in and start complaining about the Monk and discussions can turn very negative.

That's not to say everyone named is a negative poster, but when the overall 'mood' of a thread starts turning negative against Paizo and the Developers, any positive posts or comments can be skipped over and lost in the unfriendly posts.

I'm guilty of making such comments myself. I've said on more than one occasion that Paizo hates Monks, sometimes in jest, sometimes that's how I feel at the moment. But if Paizo really hated Monks, they wouldn't have included anything for Monks at all in the APG, UM or UC. Instead, we get some good archetypes, style feats, and other things that make the Monk more viable, more better.

When you stop and look at all the things released for the Monk, compared to many of the other classes, it's really quite a lot. Take the Magus for example. The Magus has 9 archetypes available to all races. The Monk has 19. The Monk has a whole series of feats released with them specifically in mind. Does the Magus have such feats? The Witch? The Oracle? Sure, many of those classes have feats specific to them, and many of the 'Monk feats' benefit anyone who takes them. But the Style Feats were released with the Monk in mind, its why so many have requirements like BAB +6 or Monk Level 6.

The Monk crowd has a tendency to focus on the negative, and stop looking at the positive. Paizo has done wonders for the Monk compared to previous incarnations, and as time has gone on, they've done even more. But we forget this. We focus on the Monk being MAD, or the Amulet of Mighty Fist being an awful choice, or the clashing class features.

Maybe we should stop saying what we dislike, and start talking about what we do like instead?


Tels wrote:

Why should the Developers keep trying to do nice things for the Monk, if everything they do is harshly criticized by the Monk fans that are willing to speak?

Because they're paid professionals who should want as much of their consumer base as possible to be happy with their product?


Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Tels wrote:

Why should the Developers keep trying to do nice things for the Monk, if everything they do is harshly criticized by the Monk fans that are willing to speak?

Because they're paid professionals who should want as much of their consumer base as possible to be happy with their product?

Yes, that's true. But how much do they have to change to make the majority happy? How much is too much? How much before the Monk is considered brokenly powerful?

The Unarmed Monk is the one most people see as bad. The top complaints being lack have enhancement and dependency on so many ability scores. Paizo has been very adamant that they won't release anything that makes the AoMF redundant. And it's a little late to alter the ability score issue.

So the two biggest problems, are the ones that are the hardest to fix. Weapon Monks are viable choices, no ones really said that they aren't. The ones people decry are the unarmed and the two biggest factors to the unarmed Monk will be the most difficult to change.

I know they want to make increment changes instead of large ones to avoid creep. Now that I've actually sat back and thought about it, I agree. I'd much rather see them make a minor change here, and a minor change there, to get the result they want.


Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Tels wrote:

Why should the Developers keep trying to do nice things for the Monk, if everything they do is harshly criticized by the Monk fans that are willing to speak?

Because they're paid professionals who should want as much of their consumer base as possible to be happy with their product?

Yes but when they show up to say something they are attacked and/or labeled as incompetent or told they don't know how the rules work or are doing it wrong. I personally wouldn't be to quick to say any possible changes. I mean for a while no devs posted after the original monk attack if memory serves me correctly. Also "most" of their consumer base is happy, its the vocal few who are not.

I semi agree the monk needs a boost, but I until just now have never once said anything about it.

So maybe the best thing is to just chill and wait rather than getting upset. Hell didn't another monk thread getting started last week or this one?


havoc xiii wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Tels wrote:

Why should the Developers keep trying to do nice things for the Monk, if everything they do is harshly criticized by the Monk fans that are willing to speak?

Because they're paid professionals who should want as much of their consumer base as possible to be happy with their product?

Yes but when they show up to say something they are attacked and/or labeled as incompetent or told they don't know how the rules work or are doing it wrong. I personally wouldn't be to quick to say any possible changes. I mean for a while no devs posted after the original monk attack if memory serves me correctly. Also "most" of their consumer base is happy, its the vocal few who are not.

I semi agree the monk needs a boost, but I until just now have never once said anything about it.

So maybe the best thing is to just chill and wait rather than getting upset. Hell didn't another monk thread getting started last week or this one?

On average, about 7 Monk threads are started each week by my estimate.


Yea...far to many in my opinion, but that's not to say you shouldn't say how you feel. If you feel the monk needs to be able to reliably hit its opponent then say it. That however does not mean you should directly attack paizo because the monk doesn't do what you want it to.

I mean I always played the monk as needing to use two different weapons meaning differing body parts or manufactured weapons. Until a few days ago when me and my wife rewatched the martial arts movie Seven Swords where the would be classified as monks yet they only fought with swords and in all but one case it was one weapon. In fact one was a greatsword...more or less.


Tels wrote:

A Fighter fan isn't going to go reading through a new book, and throw a hissy fit because one option was 'weaker' than another option. A Monk fan is likely to do so.

I don't remember seeing anyone throw a hissy fit.


When Ultimate Equipment was released to the pre-orders, one of the first things posted was about the Body Wrap of Might Strikes and many a Monk fan was pissed. Myself, I was very angry and made some comments that were out of line.

A lot of people were unhappy about the Brawler Armor Property and the Body Wraps, and we voiced it. A lot of people were talking about how they wouldn't buy the book, about how disappointed they were, and they hadn't even read the damned thing. Hell, I made a stupid comment about torrenting the book instead of buying it.

Monk fans have a habit of over-reacting. It's almost expected of us at this point. I see jokes and comments about it all the time in the threads I lurk in. Things like, "...wonder what the Monk fans will say when UE comes out...who will be angry more, rogues or monks with ARG?...I expect certain people won't like that feat..."

Sometimes I can't help but wonder, have the Monk threads done more harm than help for the Monk?


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master arminas wrote:

You know, over in another thread asking about guided weapons, I finally read the description.

Guided Weapon Property

This is what caught my attention:

Quote:
This modifier to damage is not adjusted for two-handed weapons or off-hand weapons—it always remains equal to the wielder’s Wisdom modifier. A guided weapon may be wielded as a normal weapon, using Strength to modify attack and damage rolls, but this goes against the weapon’s nature and imparts a –2 penalty on all attack rolls made in this manner.
Sound familiar to anything? Flurry of blows maybe? Perhaps we should revisit giving the idea of giving the monk this ability at 1st or 2nd level. Should it be limited to unarmed strikes or unarmed strikes and monk weapons though? It would definately reduce MAD (although I still would not recommend dumping Strength, it would make it easier to focus the character).

Absolutely. However Jason has stated that upping the monk's damage is not in the offing, so I would suggest that we give the monk their wisdom bonus to hit with monk weapons and unarmed strike only, and give it at first level where it'll make a difference.

If this is combined with some means of bypassing DR then the lower damage output doesn't matter so much.

Tels wrote:
My point being, we need to actively reign in our negative feelings about anything that has happened in the past, and try and focus on the future.

Well said, Tels.

Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Tels wrote:

Why should the Developers keep trying to do nice things for the Monk, if everything they do is harshly criticized by the Monk fans that are willing to speak?

Because they're paid professionals who should want as much of their consumer base as possible to be happy with their product?

Paid professionals are still only human, and humans don't like taking abuse.

Tels wrote:
The Unarmed Monk is the one most people see as bad. The top complaints being lack have enhancement and dependency on so many ability scores. Paizo has been very adamant that they won't release anything that makes the AoMF redundant. And it's a little late to alter the ability score issue.

Actually a lot can be done about both without making major changes. Grant ki-strike a natural enhancement to hit bonus (from +5 at low level to +5 at high) and you have not made the AoMF redundant, but you have granted the monk up to the equivelant of close to +10 enhancement and he isn't behind the hitting curve.

The Wis-bonus to hit (see above) makes strength less necessary for the monk without imposing a feat tax, reducing MAD. Making wholeness of body cheaper and usable as a swift action makes Con less necessary.

There, three small changes, and you have pretty much fixed MAD and corrected for lack of enhancement without making the AoMF redundant.

Tels wrote:
Sometimes I can't help but wonder, have the Monk threads done more harm than help for the Monk?

I do wonder, but then the nerdrage I see here I have seen elsewhere when things are broken or do not work as the devs intended. I think the bottom line is the monk really is broken and needs a fix, and people are irate that this was not mentioned before. They kept hoping for a fix in feats or equipment and to a certain extent, they got one with the style feats. Sure, they do not address the fundamental issues, but they sure give the monk some nice toys to play with.

So it is NOT true that monks do not get nice things. They do. It just seems to be there is a disconnect between what the devs think the monk's need and what the customer base playing the class think it needs. There is also a good point that when a class is as strong as the monk is defensively, adjusting it's offensive capacity needs to be done very carefully or you can be gone the other way.


Tels wrote:

When Ultimate Equipment was released to the pre-orders, one of the first things posted was about the Body Wrap of Might Strikes and many a Monk fan was pissed. Myself, I was very angry and made some comments that were out of line.

A lot of people were unhappy about the Brawler Armor Property and the Body Wraps, and we voiced it. A lot of people were talking about how they wouldn't buy the book, about how disappointed they were, and they hadn't even read the damned thing. Hell, I made a stupid comment about torrenting the book instead of buying it.

Monk fans have a habit of over-reacting. It's almost expected of us at this point. I see jokes and comments about it all the time in the threads I lurk in. Things like, "...wonder what the Monk fans will say when UE comes out...who will be angry more, rogues or monks with ARG?...I expect certain people won't like that feat..."

Sometimes I can't help but wonder, have the Monk threads done more harm than help for the Monk?

I reckon the paizo design team are able to separate emotion from rational critique. So even if some of the comments have gone too far (and I certainly think they have from time to time) I doubt it's going to have done much lasting damage as to whether the class's problems will be addressed.

The main detrimental effect I think the tone of criticism has had is that the designer who was most engaged in responding to this issue (ie Sean) has backed off somewhat. I dont think the more irate amongst those of you angling for a monk fix have done yourselves any favors there.

I personally think the tone is the only objectionable thing in the various monk threads, not the fact that there is criticism. For the most part, the carefully set out arguments for where you see the weaknesses of the class seem to me to be extremely useful for the developers.


Tels wrote:

The Unarmed Monk is the one most people see as bad. The top complaints being lack have enhancement and dependency on so many ability scores. Paizo has been very adamant that they won't release anything that makes the AoMF redundant. And it's a little late to alter the ability score issue.

So the two biggest problems, are the ones that are the hardest to fix.

I think this is something of a false dilemma on their part. IMO they're too committed to the AoMF, and there's already precedence for feats that overcome MAD (Wep finesse/Dervish Dance/Piranha Strike).

My take:
MAD
Feat 1: WIS to attack instead of STR with Unarmed Strike/Monk weapons when unarmored/unencumbered.

Feat 2: (Prerequisites: Feat 1, Sense Motive 2 ranks) WIS to damage instead of STR with Unarmed Strike/Monk weapons when unarmored/unencumbered.

Enhancement
Take the Body Wrap item from UE: Cap the bonus at +5, remove the limit on number of attacks per round, only allow straight enhancement bonus aka no special weapon abilities, and limit it to unarmed strikes only.

Enhancement bonus is now relatively reasonably priced and AoMF is still the only game in town for a monk looking to add special abilities to their unarmed strike.

(I'd actually alter the "Body Wrap" item a bit further and make in an unslotted item at the same cost, call it Ki Line Tattoo or the like and limit it to working with the Ki Strike ability) so as to leave the Monk Robe in the game).

Personally I don't see anything "broken" about either of these things, and think they're pretty simple/intuitive to the primary issues the monk has.

I personally think that these two things would be much easier to add in to existing games/published adventures AP than actually making changes to the Core Monk class would be.

Dabbler wrote:
Paid professionals are still only human, and humans don't like taking abuse.

Criticism is not abuse. If people are making personal attacks or the like that is out of line, if they're pointing out perceived flaws and inconsistencies that's par for the course.


I like the added proviso that the Wis bonus to attack is dependent on being unarmoured, but I would make it a natural ability of the monk, otherwise it's a feat tax on not going for strength and doesn't really fix MAD. If a feat fixes MAD, then Weapon Finesse already does so. Oh, and I'd make it replace strength on maneuvers as well.

The feat for Wis to damage...not sure I'd want to go that far, but it's a nice idea, certainly as a feat.

Enhancement:

Whatever else the devs have made clear that the AoMF is here to stay. The body-wraps were a cheaper option, it's painfully clear, but the devs really didn't get what the customer base were after.

A possibility I suggested was an item that would give an enhancement bonus to hit only, capped at +5, at 3K x bonus squared, to all weapons carried. Becomes nice for TWFers and the like as well as monks.

I still prefer giving the monk's ki-strike a natural enhancement bonus to hit (not to damage), and a ki abiulity that can bypass DR as well. It's elegant, simple, and doesn't shove their damage up. It means that they can bypass enemy defences (something they are meant to do but cannot) while not making their damage output challenge that of the heavy-hitters.

I take what you mean about criticism, but there's negative criticism and positive criticism ("This sucks!" vs "It's OK but could have been better if..."). Positive criticism is always more productive.


While Weapon Finesse does reduce mad to an extent, the Monk lacks the bonus dice of the Rogue/Ninja, boosting of the Bard and alchemist, and the buffs, boosts, and spell strike (not to mention that they're the ones who most often use Dervish Dance to get Dex to damage) of the Magus. So the idea of a WIS based version (aside from allowing for a different flavor) is to allow it to chain to the second feat for WIS to damage, since that's a big part of what a Monk needs to reduce MAD.

On the enhancement tip, I think your proposed item simply ends up being a much bigger boon for all the other classes, who can now stack their regularly priced weapons loaded down with Special abilities with a Bonus to hit.

Limit it to unarmed strikes and I guess it's a solid compromise with the Dev's dedication to the AoMF.

I still think the AoMF remains a yoke (literally) around the Monk's neck.


I agree with you, as I say, the preferred option for me is the enhancement to hit being inherrent to Ki-strike.

Once the enhancement to hit is there, the AoMF then becomes gravy rather than meat and drink - nice to have, and advantageous, but not absolutely essential.

It certainly isn't a broken concept, it works for the bladebound magus and the soulknife both.

Liberty's Edge

Perhaps as a compromise unarmed and monk weapon attack bonus is off of wisdom, but damage remains tied to strength.

You can now pump wisdom and hit things, but it doesn't bump damage in a way that would concern the Devs.

Doesn't fix the DR problem, but it does address a good chunk of the MAD and fits flavor.


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ciretose wrote:

Perhaps as a compromise unarmed and monk weapon attack bonus is off of wisdom, but damage remains tied to strength.

You can now pump wisdom and hit things, but it doesn't bump damage in a way that would concern the Devs.

Doesn't fix the DR problem, but it does address a good chunk of the MAD and fits flavor.

This is my preferred option: Have the monk hit a lot of times, get through DR, but not inflict massive damage. That way they cannot be ignored, their Stunning Fist has an effect, but the arena of massive damage stays in the realm of the full BAB warriors.

It enables monks to do what they should do.


Good ideas one and all.

MA


What if monks could add Wis to damage, but their unarmed strike damage die were reduced?

Instead of going all the way up to 2d10, why not cap it at, say, 1d8 or 1d10, and then increase its threat range to 19~20?

Would that make them to damaging? It's still probably less damage than a two-handed fighter, maybe even a dedicated TWFer and his two-weapon rend.

This way the Monk can get Weapon Finesse pump Dex/Wis and have just a moderate Con.

Maybe allow monks to use Wis instead of Int to qualify for Combat Expertise and Combat Maneuvers feats?

Liberty's Edge

Lemmy wrote:

What if monks could add Wis to damage, but their unarmed strike damage die were reduced?

Instead of going all the way up to 2d10, why not cap it at, say, 1d8 or 1d10, and then increase its threat range to 19~20?

Would that make them to damaging? It's still probably less damage than a two-handed fighter, maybe even a dedicated TWFer and his two-weapon rend.

This way the Monk can get Weapon Finesse pump Dex/Wis and have just a moderate Con.

Maybe allow monks to use Wis instead of Int to qualify for Combat Expertise and Combat Maneuvers feats?

Problem comes with the possible dip exploitation.


I agree, plus we are looking for small changes, and this would entail changing the entire structure of the unarmed strike damage. It's those rising damage dice that make me shy away from flat enhancement to hit AND damage from ki-strike - it's not needed, especially as the devs want only minor changes, and do not want the monk to be best at damage dealing.


I think capping the Monks unarmed damage progression at level 4 or 8 would, ultimately be better for the class, for the very reason that this fear of the "mighty" 2d8 - 2d10 at high levels is one of the things that prevents the class from getting the help it needs.


Ninja in the Rye wrote:
I think capping the Monks unarmed damage progression at level 4 or 8 would, ultimately be better for the class, for the very reason that this fear of the "mighty" 2d8 - 2d10 at high levels is one of the things that prevents the class from getting the help it needs.

It's how I made my version of the monk, but the devs have said minor changes, so minor changes it is.


Keep in mind Wisdom to attack and Damage is already a class feature of the Sensei Archetype.

Insightful Strike (Ex) wrote:

At 2nd level, a sensei may use his Wisdom bonus in lieu of his Strength or Dexterity on attack rolls and combat maneuver checks with unarmed strikes or monk weapons.

This ability replaces evasion and the bonus feat gained at 2nd level.

So the fears about level dipping for Wisdom shouldn't really apply. If a Cleric wanted to dip a Monk for Wisdom, he could, as the Sensei has no restrictions on when he can use Insightful Strike other than Unarmed Strike and Monk Weapons.

So if Wisdom to hit (and combat maneuvers) were an actual Monk class feature, but with the provision that it only works with unarmed strikes and monk weapons, and if he his unarmored or carrying a medium or heavy load, I think that it would work just fine.

Even though we'd like to see a built in Ki Enhancement feature, changing the Ki Strike feature so that it's treated as a scaling +1 Weapon every 4 levels for the purposes of overcoming DR would be the two simplest solutions I can think of.

You now have a higher to-hit bonus by reducing MAD, though not a high damage bonus, and without obsoleting the AoMF. By allowing Monks to bypass DR automatically, you've slightly increased their over all DPR, but not by anything drastic. A Monk simply won't be getting the same static bonuses to damage that other classes can get.

I've got a 450 mile road trip to make today, so I won't be back for awhile. Good news though, when I do get back, my Minis will be funded :P


Have fun, Tels, and drive safely. One note: Sensei doesn't replace Strength with Wisdom for damage. It is only for attack rolls and combat maneuver checks. And only with unarmed strikes and monk weapons.

MA


Tels wrote:

Keep in mind Wisdom to attack and Damage is already a class feature of the Sensei Archetype.

The sensei uses Wisdom for attack rolls and combat manoeuvres, not for damage.

To limit abuse by CoDzillas level dipping, I suggested a model based on the duelist, which Master Arminas modified further.

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