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Flurry of Changes to Flurry of Blows


Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew

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Andoran

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Quick question here, I don't have my PCR in front of me, but can monk unarmed strikes still be enchanted (permanently or temporarily) like a manufactured weapon? Because I know you used to be able to do that in 3.5 and I've just kind of been assuming it was still true.


Ssalarn, this is the best I could find, but it is pretty vague:
"A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

If you count magic weapon enhancements as effects, then yes, you can. At least, that's how I read it. But I'm not sure it qualifies as an effect. (Edit: I'd allow it if I were running a regular game).

At the very least (or most), a monk could Permanency a Magic Fang (normal or Greater).


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ssalarn wrote:
Sweet mother of God, "the monk is a WEAK class"?!?!?! What monk have you been playing? Monks are consistently amongst the most solid characters in any given campaign, with solid damage output, above average durability between AC boosts and great saves, and a remarkable versatility between baseline abilities and the various archetypes available....

Yep. I don't disagree that a monk can be universally effective with the right stats and the right feats, especially if you use one of the archetypes. The problem here is that you need the archetype, and if you blow the right feat selection you end up with a substandard character.

The monk is fundamentally a combat class, it has good AC, but only moderate hit points. It is MAD as all hell, with no less than four important stats (five if you really want to go for maneuvers) to cover.

Wisdom is your special ability stat, and it's a mental stat which, if not for the monk AC bonus, doesn't help you in combat at all.
Strength is needed to score hits and do damage. You can get the hits if you ignore strength and pay a hefty feat tax, but then your damage really suffers.
Dexterity is needed for AC, as you have no armour.
Constitution is needed for hit points, as you have only d8 hit dice.
Intelligence is needed if you want to make the most of your skills and go for maneuvers beyond the basic.

The next problem is that you will have real problems hitting anything at mid to higher levels. Even with flurry-of-blows you are limited to full BAB-2, without it you are at 3/4 BAB. On top of that, you suffer because you are either using some awful weapons or your unarmed strike which you can't enhance properly. An amulet of mighty fists +2 costs 20,000gp, while a +3 weapon is slightly less, so you are another -1 to hit behind the full BAB combat classes. The lack of enhancement also reduces your ability to get past damage resistance, and this is important at high level. MAD just adds to this as you cannot always afford the higher stats a SAD class can manage with their associated higher modifier on hitting.

If you throw everything into the AoMF, you are still behind the full BAB classes to hit, and if you cannot hit, you cannot deal damage. The unarmed damage progression looks good, but it's a red herring: without the hits and the ability to bypass DR it just doesn't deliver on DPR.

Maneuvers are decent, but not every foe is susceptible to maneuvers and again you lack enhancement which a fighter can get from a weapon.

In short, the monk is defensively good, but offensively less use than a fallen paladin as you get to high mid levels. With good tactics and good feat selection they can do OK, but it takes a lot of skill to bring it out.


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Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

*sigh*

Every time I see this thread grow a hundred posts, I hope it means the FAQ has finally been done.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Stazamos wrote:

Ssalarn, this is the best I could find, but it is pretty vague:

"A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

If you count magic weapon enhancements as effects, then yes, you can. At least, that's how I read it. But I'm not sure it qualifies as an effect. (Edit: I'd allow it if I were running a regular game).

At the very least (or most), a monk could Permanency a Magic Fang (normal or Greater).

Greater Magic Fang would only provide the monk with +1 to his unarmed strike, unless cast on each body-part separately (and paid for with a permanency each). You get no special effects, and one dispel magic, and it's gone.

Shadow Lodge

Dabbler wrote:
Stazamos wrote:

Ssalarn, this is the best I could find, but it is pretty vague:

"A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

If you count magic weapon enhancements as effects, then yes, you can. At least, that's how I read it. But I'm not sure it qualifies as an effect. (Edit: I'd allow it if I were running a regular game).

At the very least (or most), a monk could Permanency a Magic Fang (normal or Greater).

Greater Magic Fang would only provide the monk with +1 to his unarmed strike, unless cast on each body-part separately (and paid for with a permanency each). You get no special effects, and one dispel magic, and it's gone.

I believe your thinking MF (the level 1 version) GMF hits all unarmed strikes IIRC


I didn't say it was perfect. It just happens to be the only weapon or attack enhancement on the Permanency list (I was thinking of options for a monk to have "built in" enhancement). A better option is probably to enhance some knuckledusters if a GM doesn't allow direct enhancement of a monk's fists (or feet, or what have you). There's also the Amulet of Mighty Fists, but that is prohibitively expensive at a certain power level.

Edit: Wraith235, GMF allows +1 per 4 caster levels to one natural weapon or unarmed strike, or +1 to all natural weapons and unarmed strikes (CL ignored for the latter).

Shadow Lodge

yup ... that's what I recalled

Andoran

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Stazamos wrote:

Ssalarn, this is the best I could find, but it is pretty vague:

"A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

If you count magic weapon enhancements as effects, then yes, you can. At least, that's how I read it. But I'm not sure it qualifies as an effect. (Edit: I'd allow it if I were running a regular game).

At the very least (or most), a monk could Permanency a Magic Fang (normal or Greater).

I'd really like to see if there's a FAQ or dev ruling on this, as it makes a fairly substantial difference in the ultimate capability of the monk's UA attacks. I had assumed that the reference to being able to treat it as a manufactured weapon opened the door for enchanting just like any other weapon... Thematically I'd always kind of viewed it like magical tattooing around the affected body part.

Anyways, potentially a pretty big distinction here.

Andoran

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Dabbler wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
Sweet mother of God, "the monk is a WEAK class"?!?!?! What monk have you been playing? Monks are consistently amongst the most solid characters in any given campaign, with solid damage output, above average durability between AC boosts and great saves, and a remarkable versatility between baseline abilities and the various archetypes available....

Yep. I don't disagree that a monk can be universally effective with the right stats and the right feats, especially if you use one of the archetypes. The problem here is that you need the archetype, and if you blow the right feat selection you end up with a substandard character.

The monk is fundamentally a combat class, it has good AC, but only moderate hit points. It is MAD as all hell, with no less than four important stats (five if you really want to go for maneuvers) to cover.

Wisdom is your special ability stat, and it's a mental stat which, if not for the monk AC bonus, doesn't help you in combat at all.
Strength is needed to score hits and do damage. You can get the hits if you ignore strength and pay a hefty feat tax, but then your damage really suffers.
Dexterity is needed for AC, as you have no armour.
Constitution is needed for hit points, as you have only d8 hit dice.
Intelligence is needed if you want to make the most of your skills and go for maneuvers beyond the basic.

The next problem is that you will have real problems hitting anything at mid to higher levels. Even with flurry-of-blows you are limited to full BAB-2, without it you are at 3/4 BAB. On top of that, you suffer because you are either using some awful weapons or your unarmed strike which you can't enhance properly. An amulet of mighty fists +2 costs 20,000gp, while a +3 weapon is slightly less, so you are another -1 to hit behind the full BAB combat classes. The lack of enhancement also reduces your ability to get past damage resistance, and this is important at high level. MAD just adds to this as you cannot always afford the higher...

Dabbler, as discussed in some of the surrounding thread, I had been operating under the understanding that the monks UA attacks could be modified and enchanted just like any other weapon per the text quoted by Stazamos. If this is not the case, I agree that it does make a difference in the effectiveness of the monks UA attacks.


Ssalarn, was that the same text that allowed it in D&D 3.5?

It feels (this is just a gut feel observation) that 3.5 players tended to read the rules more in favor of allowing gray areas, but PF players tend to be stricter about it, perhaps due to the heavy influence of PFS, particularly on these boards.


An unarmed strike is not a masterwork weapon, therefore, it can't be made magical except through temporary spells like Greater Magic Fang. Remember though, Greater Magic Fang does not allow for the bypass of Damage Reduction that 'true' enhancement does.

As Dabbler said, a Monk is, at best, OK unless the GM you're playing isn't very familiar with the game and doesn't put challenging encounters against the party.

A Monk is best through 10th level. After that, most things start having serious DR, and the Monk only shines against normal mooks.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Wraith235 wrote:
I believe your thinking MF (the level 1 version) GMF hits all unarmed strikes IIRC

Nope, GMF only gives multiple natural weapons +1, or one natural weapon +1/4 levels. Unarmed strike is multiple weapons, according to the devs, so it's multiple castings or an all-round +1.

Ssalarn wrote:
Dabbler, as discussed in some of the surrounding thread, I had been operating under the understanding that the monks UA attacks could be modified and enchanted just like any other weapon per the text quoted by Stazamos. If this is not the case, I agree that it does make a difference in the effectiveness of the monks UA attacks.

Sadly, by RAW, unarmed strikes cannot be enchanted as Tels has said.

I agree a lot of the problems the monk has lie in the lack of enhancement. There have been a lot of suggestions and quick-fixes for this that I won't repeat here.

There are other issues, like MADness, abilities that do not work well together if at all, etc.

Shadow Lodge

Dabbler wrote:
Wraith235 wrote:
I believe your thinking MF (the level 1 version) GMF hits all unarmed strikes IIRC
Nope, GMF only gives multiple natural weapons +1, or one natural weapon +1/4 levels. Unarmed strike is multiple weapons, according to the devs, so it's multiple castings or an all-round +1

Yup that's what I was trying to impart ....my wording sucked


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I got what you were trying to say.

There have been many suggestions for fixes for unarmed strike - from making it enchantable, to giving ki-strike an inherent enhancement bonus, to an item that provides a bonus to hit...


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

On that subject, how would the devs feel about a ki-focus weapon allowing the monk to inflict their base unarmed damage through the weapon? It would not invalidate the AoMF at low levels, but would be a viable option at high levels that allows access to higher weapon bonuses.


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Having Ki focus enable UA damage would make me much less cranky about paying for a weak enhancement on a weak weapon.

Also, I'd actually like to make the argument that a monk's unarmed attacks ARE. A masterwork weapon. If any creature could claim a masterwork version of a bodily strike it would be the guy who trains his body into a lethal weapon that counts as magic and bypasses hardness. That would actually make sense.

By RAW you could melt down a sword and reforge it into a masterwork weapon so why not retrain your mundane body into a masterwork specimen?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Possibly it would open up that other can of worms whenever you try and give monks nice things: monsters, druids & animal companions. If a monk can have a masterwork unarmed strike, creatures can have masterwork natural weapons that can also be enchanted up to +10 equivalence.

Can you imagine a dragon with +5 keen unholy human-bane claws, teeth, wings and tail, along with a +5 ghost touch hide? As well as magic items from their hoard? Hell they are spell-casters, they just need the feat Craft Magic Arms and Armour and then do the magic on themselves...


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How would you guys feels about a mechanic for ki strike similar to a paladin's bonded weapon, or a magi's arcane strike? Where you spend a point of ki to get an actual enhancement bonus to your unarmed strikes for a short period of time (and, ala both abilities, can choose to add special weapon properties instead of enhancement bonuses).

Master Arminas


I'd like that with the exception of most special weapon properties: Flaming, frost, shock etc. don't fit the concept of ki very much (ki being more of an internal power). Speed would overlap with ki bonus to movement and extra attack. Vorpal would be ok for monk weapons with a blade.

Instead of (most of) the classic weapon properties I'd suggest some new properties unique to the monk, more in line with stunning fist. Dabbler's ki feats might be a good starting point (IIRC something like overcoming DR or making touch attacks instead of normal attacks).
Increasing stunning fist DC by, say +2, for the duration of the ki strike would be another nice property.

Another problem I see is the duration of 1 min. While it is fair when comparing with the paladin or the magus, it is much longer than the other uses of ki which would be a little bit strange.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's a good mechanic but ki is already at a premium as it is; one point for one minute would work, one ki point for one round would be impossible.

I would agree with Liam in that properties are not things I'd want to add to unarmed strike. In a way it would be the opposite of the paladin ability - the paladin adds mainly properties to his weapon, the monk should be adding just enhancements.

All that said, I'd just go the whole hog and say ki-strike enhances your strikes automatically.


The problem is the Sohei already has something similar, and to give the Base Monk an ability that is better, would negate that class ability, rendering it worthless.

It's fine for homebrew games, and I have every intention of either using Stragen's Monk for homegames, or adding in the Paladin bonded weapon mechanic for Monks while increasing their Ki Pool. Or something to that effect.


Dabbler wrote:

Possibly it would open up that other can of worms whenever you try and give monks nice things: monsters, druids & animal companions. If a monk can have a masterwork unarmed strike, creatures can have masterwork natural weapons that can also be enchanted up to +10 equivalence.

Can you imagine a dragon with +5 keen unholy human-bane claws, teeth, wings and tail, along with a +5 ghost touch hide? As well as magic items from their hoard? Hell they are spell-casters, they just need the feat Craft Magic Arms and Armour and then do the magic on themselves...

Make it a class feature of the Monk, tie it to Ki strike or something similar. That solves several problems, for it to work with natural attacks requires a feat tax+several levels of monk. It'd still make dragons into nightmare encounters, but that would pump the CR quite a bit. Druids would have to multiclass, not dip, losing several levels of spellcasting. Conventional wisdom would make that a questionable tradeoff. this would take cheese like animal companions and eidolons off the table as well.


master arminas wrote:

How would you guys feels about a mechanic for ki strike similar to a paladin's bonded weapon, or a magi's arcane strike? Where you spend a point of ki to get an actual enhancement bonus to your unarmed strikes for a short period of time (and, ala both abilities, can choose to add special weapon properties instead of enhancement bonuses).

Master Arminas

I'd say no to flaming fists. I thought that was cheesy in 3.5 (though mechanically those feats were quite good).

As a straight enhancement boost or an overcomes all DR thing I could see it.
I also agree that it would have to be a one minute duration, anything less would devour Ki far to fast to be of much use.

Maybe something that prolonged a stun for another round would work, but stuns are powerful when they start to rob multiple actions.


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Came back after a month or so to see if anything official has been posted. Apparently not.

The word "disappointed" no longer adequately describes my feelings in this regard. Has there been no word at all on what the devs plan to do about this?


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

Yes, there has.

Not going to search for it right now, but as I recall they said that due to the scale of the work necessary, nothing would be done until after con season (i.e. after PaizoCon and GenCon).


gbonehead wrote:

Yes, there has.

Not going to search for it right now, but as I recall they said that due to the scale of the work necessary, nothing would be done until after con season (i.e. after PaizoCon and GenCon).

So PaizoCon is early July, but GenCon is in mid August. Is that right? So nothing will be done for at least another two months?


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

That's my understanding, yeah. Makes sense to me; I can see con season being busy at a gaming company :)


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
zagnabbit wrote:
Dabbler wrote:

Possibly it would open up that other can of worms whenever you try and give monks nice things: monsters, druids & animal companions. If a monk can have a masterwork unarmed strike, creatures can have masterwork natural weapons that can also be enchanted up to +10 equivalence.

Can you imagine a dragon with +5 keen unholy human-bane claws, teeth, wings and tail, along with a +5 ghost touch hide? As well as magic items from their hoard? Hell they are spell-casters, they just need the feat Craft Magic Arms and Armour and then do the magic on themselves...

Make it a class feature of the Monk, tie it to Ki strike or something similar. That solves several problems, for it to work with natural attacks requires a feat tax+several levels of monk. It'd still make dragons into nightmare encounters, but that would pump the CR quite a bit. Druids would have to multiclass, not dip, losing several levels of spellcasting. Conventional wisdom would make that a questionable tradeoff. this would take cheese like animal companions and eidolons off the table as well.

You missunderstand me, what I meant was that the druid could have his natural weapons enchanted without having to take ANY dips as monk. He could have his animal companion's natural weapons enchanted without having to take any monk dips too. So could the ranger.

And they would get more out of it than the monk, too, because they do not have iterative attacks.


Dabbler wrote:
zagnabbit wrote:


Make it a class feature of the Monk, tie it to Ki strike or something similar. That solves several problems, for it to work with natural attacks requires a feat tax+several levels of monk. It'd still make dragons into nightmare encounters, but that would pump the CR quite a bit. Druids would have to multiclass, not dip, losing several levels of spellcasting. Conventional wisdom would make that a questionable tradeoff. this would take cheese like animal companions and eidolons off the table as well.

You missunderstand me, what I meant was that the druid could have his natural weapons enchanted without having to take ANY dips as monk. He could have his animal companion's natural weapons enchanted without having to take any monk dips too. So could the ranger.

And they would get more out of it than the monk, too, because they do not have iterative attacks.

Dabbler, I think you have misunderstood zagnabbit, because exactly these problems would be fixed if the feature is a class feature of the monk, tied to Ki strike or something similar, as suggested by zagnabbit - wouldn't they?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Liam ap Thalwig wrote:
Dabbler, I think you have misunderstood zagnabbit, because exactly these problems would be fixed if the feature is a class feature of the monk, tied to Ki strike or something similar, as suggested by zagnabbit - wouldn't they?

I understand that is his intent, but then why not just grant them an enhancement bonus via ki-strike, like +1/four levels? That way the worm-can of enchanting other natural attacks stays firmly closed.


Either would work really.

Masterwork UA Strike allows for imbueable weapons, with all that that entails. This allows for a permanent enhancement, no Dispel silliness. It's also UNIQUE to the monk, distinctiveness is to be desirable when far too many classes are just slight variations on a theme.

Ki boosts are already built in, so the adaptation is easier (a single feat would do it with no reprinting or redesign). Sadly this is just a weaker version of the fighters weapon skill. Now this could also extend to monk weapons, which allows for versatility. That's all nice. But Ki is an already limited resource, extremely limited. A Ki feat also applies to Ninjas.

I don't have a preference.


Dabbler,
I see what you're saying about a can of worms. Even if it's a monk only ability, someone somewhere will give other characters something similar, like weapon training and it's clones that are in some ways better than Weapon Training.


OK my turn.

WHEW! A lot of GRRRRREAT ideas here and on the other related threads folks!

@ Ashiel: I read your version of the monk...Yah! Psionics + the monk does make sense. Considering the other's "monk fix" it's really makes it a hard to decide which one to root for! ;p

Presently the "continuity" of the Core Rulebook doesn't mention much about "psionic" powers. [looks through CRB Table of Contents and index just to be sure]. Also the devs mention about word count which needs to be considered part of the criteria to "fix things".

Flurry of Blows: <SIGH> Having a monk able to hit with some sort of magical item/enhancement every other hit instead of "any combination"...I'll just cross muh fingers and wait on that one. I've already mentioned on another thread that IRL I can do a version of FoB because I practice/teach a Filipino Martial Art (FMA). ;p

Ki Pool: For now the RaW is that the ki pool helps the monk fight tougher monsters/NPCs/etc. I actually think that a bare-handed monk and his ki pool is the iconic character we should be looking at. No need to add new powers, but just needs tweaking so that there is no ambiguity and that they are not magic item/enhancement dependent and possibly re-arrange things so as not to be a Multiple Ability Dependent (MAD) character...(maybe this is for OR mentioned in another thread).

As a possible fix/revision/whatevah and since word count must be considered do you folks think:

that the Devs could/should expand/re-write/clarify the "supernatural abilities" of ki pool?

Currently: As long as there is 1 point in ki pool (and at certain levels)
- allows a monk's "unarmed attacks(UAs) to be treated as magic weapons" overcoming DR,
- UAs are treated as lawful weapons,
- UAs are treated as adamantine to overcome DR & bypass hardness.
Should this expand to:
- monk’s unarmed attacks gain +1/5 levels (as suggested by others)?

Could/should the increase in ki mean that they can expend ki:
- to increase their AC,
- to increase their chances "to hit",
- to be able to make a 5 foot movement and still attack,
- so that their UAs is the equivalent of silver/cold iron weapons???

Again: the above is an attempt to not drastically change the continuity of the CRB.

[threadjack]
Incidentally: on pg 562 in the CRB regarding enhancement bonus for "some common types of damage reduction":

cold/iron = +3 weapons
adamantine = +4 weapons
alignment based = +5 weapons

Which brings up something I think worth mentioning: according to the CRB re: ki pool
- @10th the monk is treated as lawful (+5),
- @16th the monk is treated as admantine (+4)...

For continuity sake should these be re-arranged? IE. the +4 enhancement comes first OR adamantine come first OR was this errated and I didn't see it????

Did i just open another can of worms here???? o_0
[/threadjack]

(Thinking of a closing phrase),

Rom


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
zagnabbit wrote:

Dabbler,

I see what you're saying about a can of worms. Even if it's a monk only ability, someone somewhere will give other characters something similar, like weapon training and it's clones that are in some ways better than Weapon Training.

Yes, it's a case of somebody, somewhere, will try and argue claws or teeth can be filed or some such to make them masterwork.

Rom001 wrote:

[threadjack]

Incidentally: on pg 562 in the CRB regarding enhancement bonus for "some common types of damage reduction":

cold/iron = +3 weapons
adamantine = +4 weapons
alignment based = +5 weapons

Which brings up something I think worth mentioning: according to the CRB re: ki pool
- @10th the monk is treated as lawful (+5),
- @16th the monk is treated as admantine (+4)...

For continuity sake should these be re-arranged? IE. the +4 enhancement comes first OR adamantine come first OR was this errated and I didn't see it????

Did i just open another can of worms here???? o_0
[/threadjack]

...and that's another reason for the automatic enhancement. Gets past all the DR issues in one fell swoop.


Rom001 wrote:

OK my turn.

WHEW! A lot of GRRRRREAT ideas here and on the other related threads folks!

@ Ashiel: I read your version of the monk...Yah! Psionics + the monk does make sense. Considering the other's "monk fix" it's really makes it a hard to decide which one to root for! ;p

Yep, Ashiel's monk/psychic warrior is pretty rad.

Quote:

Presently the "continuity" of the Core Rulebook doesn't mention much about "psionic" powers. [looks through CRB Table of Contents and index just to be sure]. Also the devs mention about word count which needs to be considered part of the criteria to "fix things".

Flurry of Blows: <SIGH> Having a monk able to hit with some sort of magical item/enhancement every other hit instead of "any combination"...I'll just cross muh fingers and wait on that one. I've already mentioned on another thread that IRL I can do a version of FoB because I practice/teach a Filipino Martial Art (FMA). ;p

Ki Pool: For now the RaW is that the ki pool helps the monk fight tougher monsters/NPCs/etc. I actually think that a bare-handed monk and his ki pool is the iconic character we should be looking at. No need to add new powers, but just needs tweaking so that there is no ambiguity and that they are not magic item/enhancement dependent and possibly re-arrange things so as not to be a Multiple Ability Dependent (MAD) character...(maybe this is for OR mentioned in another thread).

As a possible fix/revision/whatevah and since word count must be considered do you folks think:

that the Devs could/should expand/re-write/clarify the "supernatural abilities" of ki pool?

Currently: As long as there is 1 point in ki pool (and at certain levels)
- allows a monk's "unarmed attacks(UAs) to be treated as magic weapons" overcoming DR,
- UAs are treated as lawful weapons,
- UAs are treated as adamantine to overcome DR & bypass hardness.
Should this expand to:
- monk’s unarmed attacks gain +1/5 levels (as suggested by others)?

Could/should the increase in ki mean that they can expend ki:
- to increase their AC,
- to increase their chances "to hit",
- to be able to make a 5 foot movement and still attack,
- so that their UAs is the equivalent of silver/cold iron weapons???

Again: the above is an attempt to not drastically change the continuity of the CRB.

1. Increase ki pool to class level + Wis modifier.

2. Add the following to ki pool: "In addition to the above powers, a monk can also spend 1 point of ki when he (a) charges, (b) uses the Spring Attack feat, or (c) spends a move action to move; doing so gives the monk one additional attack at the same attack bonus as his flurry of blows ability. Spending ki in this fashion to gain an additional attack otherwise follows all rules for a flurry of blows."

3. "So long as a monk retains at least 1 point of ki in his ki pool, his unarmed attack receive a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls, and are treated as magic weapons for purpose of affecting creatures and for damage reduction. As a monk increases in level, ki strike also increases: at 8th level, a monk gains a +2 enhancement bonus to his unarmed strikes (and bypasses damage reduction lawful), at 12th level this increases to +3 (and bypasses damage reduction based on cold iron and silver); at 16th level this increases to +4 (bypassing damage reduction based on adamantine) and at 20th level increases to +5 (bypassing all alignment based damage reduction.

Quote:

[threadjack]

Incidentally: on pg 562 in the CRB regarding enhancement bonus for "some common types of damage reduction":

cold/iron = +3 weapons
adamantine = +4 weapons
alignment based = +5 weapons

Which brings up something I think worth mentioning: according to the CRB re: ki pool
- @10th the monk is treated as lawful (+5),
- @16th the monk is treated as admantine (+4)...

For continuity sake should these be re-arranged? IE. the +4 enhancement comes first OR adamantine come first OR was this errated and I didn't see it????

Did i just open another can of worms here???? o_0
[/threadjack]

(Thinking of a closing phrase),

Rom

See above.

MA


master arminas wrote:
2. Add the following to ki pool: "In addition to the above powers, a monk can also spend 1 point of ki when he (a) charges, (b) uses the Spring Attack feat, or (c) spends a move action to move; doing so gives the monk one additional attack at the same attack bonus as his flurry of blows ability. Spending ki in this fashion to gain an additional attack otherwise follows all rules for a flurry of blows."

It occurs to me, that option (c) could allow a Monk to make 2 Vital Strikes a round (I know, not a big deal). I like that idea. I've already got a concept in my head, that I haven't put to paper, to make a Captain Falcon like character using the Monk of the Four Winds and Vital Strike. Toss on two custom items (based off Animal Aspect-Gorilla and Lead Blades) to make it really work. At roughly 8th level, he could use a Standard Action Vital Stirke and use his Elemental Fist-Fire, for one hell of a Falcon Punch!


master arminas wrote:
1. Increase ki pool to class level + Wis modifier.

Don't forget to change the feat Extra Ki to add 4 ki points instead of 2 and the favored class bonus option of adding 1/4 ki point to add 1/2 ki point.

master arminas wrote:
2. Add the following to ki pool: "In addition to the above powers, a monk can also spend 1 point of ki when he (a) charges, (b) uses the Spring Attack feat, or (c) spends a move action to move; doing so gives the monk one additional attack at the same attack bonus as his flurry of blows ability. Spending ki in this fashion to gain an additional attack otherwise follows all rules for a flurry of blows."

In addition I'd like the monk to be more maneuverable during a full round action: what about being able to spend a ki point as a swift action to take three 5 feet steps during a full round action instead of one? (Two steps might be ok, but I think three fits better).

master arminas wrote:
3. "So long as a monk retains at least 1 point of ki in his ki pool, his unarmed attack receive a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls, and are treated as magic weapons for purpose of affecting creatures and for damage reduction. As a monk increases in level, ki strike also increases: at 8th level, a monk gains a +2 enhancement bonus to his unarmed strikes (and bypasses damage reduction lawful), at 12th level this increases to +3 (and bypasses damage reduction based on cold iron and silver); at 16th level this increases to +4 (bypassing damage reduction based on adamantine) and at 20th level increases to +5 (bypassing all alignment based damage reduction.

Just had the following idea: in addition to that the monk can spend 1 point of ki as a swift action to increase the enhancement bonus by +1 for 1 round (including the ability to bypass DR). Just happens that I like all those options to use ki points for small benefits for one round :-) I think that's what gives ki a distinct feeling to magic.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Liam ap Thalwig wrote:
Just had the following idea: in addition to that the monk can spend 1 point of ki as a swift action to increase the enhancement bonus by +1 for 1 round (including the ability to bypass DR). Just happens that I like all those options to use ki points for small benefits for one round :-) I think that's what gives ki a distinct feeling to magic.

Costs you being able to do all your other ki abilities while in use, and burns through ki too fast. Easier to make it as intrinsic as ki-strike itself because it is essential, not optional.


Dabbler wrote:
Liam ap Thalwig wrote:
Just had the following idea: in addition to that the monk can spend 1 point of ki as a swift action to increase the enhancement bonus by +1 for 1 round (including the ability to bypass DR). Just happens that I like all those options to use ki points for small benefits for one round :-) I think that's what gives ki a distinct feeling to magic.
Costs you being able to do all your other ki abilities while in use, and burns through ki too fast. Easier to make it as intrinsic as ki-strike itself because it is essential, not optional.

Dabbler, I think you misunderstood me there. My suggestion was in addition to the intrinsic enhancement described by Master Arminas.

So, at 8th level the monk would have a +2 enhancement bonus (bypassing lawful) and might spend 1 point of ki as a swift action to increase this to a +3 enhancement bonus (bypassing cold iron and silver) for one round. (Just to be clear: he may spend only 1 point in this manner.)


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Sorry! Serve me right for speed-reading! In that case, cool idea.


Liam ap Thalwig wrote:
master arminas wrote:
1. Increase ki pool to class level + Wis modifier.
Don't forget to change the feat Extra Ki to add 4 ki points instead of 2 and the favored class bonus option of adding 1/4 ki point to add 1/2 ki point.

I would actually keep Extra Ki at 2 points; the favored class the same. Why? Bumping it up to four, in addition to having more base ki points, would pretty much turn ki from a finite resource into one the monk will not run out of. Especially since you are spending either 1, 2 (wholeness of body or abundant step), or 3 per round (empty body) at most. A 10th level monk with a 20 Wisdom will have 15 ki in his pool: that is 15 rounds of augmentation, which is plenty in most cases.

Quote:
master arminas wrote:
2. Add the following to ki pool: "In addition to the above powers, a monk can also spend 1 point of ki when he (a) charges, (b) uses the Spring Attack feat, or (c) spends a move action to move; doing so gives the monk one additional attack at the same attack bonus as his flurry of blows ability. Spending ki in this fashion to gain an additional attack otherwise follows all rules for a flurry of blows."
In addition I'd like the monk to be more maneuverable during a full round action: what about being able to spend a ki point as a swift action to take three 5 feet steps during a full round action instead of one? (Two steps might be ok, but I think three fits better).

Could work. But remember the old sparring dummy of the master or whatever it was called back in the early days of 3rd edition? I think it was in the first arms and equipment guide, the soft-cover one. Yes, I just checked and it is. It was a magic item that required a character with at least one level of monk to train with for 8 hours a day across 4 weeks. At the end of that time, the monk gained the ability to take a 10-foot step anytime they could normally take a 5-foot step, for 30,000 gp. It was quickly (as with a lot of things in that version of the A&EG) declared overpowered and not for use in most games by the writers and dropped from 3.5 completely.

But how about a feat that does something similar? Say with prerequisites of still mind class feature, movement rate of 50' or greater, and the feats dodge and mobility? That could work.

Quote:
master arminas wrote:
3. "So long as a monk retains at least 1 point of ki in his ki pool, his unarmed attack receive a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls, and are treated as magic weapons for purpose of affecting creatures and for damage reduction. As a monk increases in level, ki strike also increases: at 8th level, a monk gains a +2 enhancement bonus to his unarmed strikes (and bypasses damage reduction lawful), at 12th level this increases to +3 (and bypasses damage reduction based on cold iron and silver); at 16th level this increases to +4 (bypassing damage reduction based on adamantine) and at 20th level increases to +5 (bypassing all alignment based damage reduction.

Just had the following idea: in addition to that the monk can spend 1 point of ki as a swift action to increase the enhancement bonus by +1 for 1 round (including the ability to bypass DR). Just happens that I like all those options to use ki points for small benefits for one round :-) I think that's what gives ki a distinct feeling to magic.

One extra ki for an additional +1 enhancement bonus, for one round? Sure. One thing I added in my game was to spend a point of ki to gain a +2 insight bonus on attack rolls OR a +2 insight bonus on damage rolls for one round, in addition to the normal ki expenditures. Gave plenty of choices to the player: does he spend a point of ki for an extra attack? For a +2 bonus to all attacks? For a +20 of movement? For a +4 dodge bonus to AC? For a +2 bonus to his damage on all attacks? Plenty of options, all for that finite pool of ki points--and he can't drop to 0 ki or he loses the enhancement bonus on his ki strike.

MA


I'm liking these ideas.

OK so let me re-posit the question to the forum community pundits:

Considering word count, not adding new powers/feats/etc aka "continuity", and leaving out the Flurry of Blows "dilemma" for just a bit (I know that this thread was regarding it)...

Could expanding/re-writing the monk's ki pool ability solve the class's current inefficiencies?

Followed by: Could increasing the amount ki make this class more viable (opposed to being "better")?

Ashiel has made an interesting suggestion/experiment using psionics. However, for continuity (also meaning not adding too much more to the CRB), could looking in more depth regarding the ki pool solve the problem of monks having to rely on magical items/enchantments?

Master Arminas has also made a good observation that ki should be finite VS infinite.

Sooooo, if ki was readily more available then Vow of Poverty wouldn't hinder the class and would make a better role-playing device. A more self-reliant monk if you will. Amulet of Mighty Fist could maybe keep it's current price and then maybe there would be no need to create weapons/items specifically for monks.

Although I'd like to see ideas for monk items/weapons to still be bounced around for role-playing/item creation purposes more so that folks won't make unbalancing/overpowered items.

Hmmm. I think that's it for now,

Rom


Dabbler wrote:
Sorry! Serve me right for speed-reading!

No problem :-)

Dabbler wrote:
In that case, cool idea.

Thanks!


Liam ap Thalwig wrote:


Don't forget to change the feat Extra Ki to add 4 ki points instead of 2 and the favored class bonus option of adding 1/4 ki point to add 1/2 ki point.
master arminas wrote:
I would actually keep Extra Ki at 2 points; the favored class the same. Why? Bumping it up to four, in addition to having more base ki points, would pretty much turn ki from a finite resource into one the monk will not run out of. Especially since you are spending either 1, 2 (wholeness of body or abundant step), or 3 per round (empty body) at most. A 10th level monk with a 20 Wisdom will have 15 ki in his pool: that is 15 rounds of augmentation, which is plenty in most cases.

I see your point but would still think the feat to be lame if it only gave 2 points of ki. All Extra XY feats have similar ratios of bonus/level gained by the feat. Extra ki should keep that ratio.

Maybe the monk needs some additional ways to spend more than 1 ki per round? Wholeness of body might heal more hp if more ki points are spent, for example. Abundant step might allow to take someone with you for extra ki points or increase range.

master arminas wrote:
One thing I added in my game was to spend a point of ki to gain a +2 insight bonus on attack rolls OR a +2 insight bonus on damage rolls for one round, in addition to the normal ki expenditures. Gave plenty of choices to the player: does he spend a point of ki for an extra attack? For a +2 bonus to all attacks? For a +20 of movement? For a +4 dodge bonus to AC? For a +2 bonus to his damage on all attacks? Plenty of options, all for that finite pool of ki points--and he can't drop to 0 ki or he loses the enhancement bonus on his ki strike.

I like that!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rom001 wrote:

Could expanding/re-writing the monk's ki pool ability solve the class's current inefficiencies?

Followed by: Could increasing the amount ki make this class more viable (opposed to being "better")?

No, to both. Ki pool is a useful gimmick, but ultimately a gimmick. It's gravy, not the meal. You can use it to solve a lot of issues, but not the main ones (at least as I see it). A ki-point to move 20 feet as a swift action? Mobility solved! But it's not going address the monk's fundamental issue with weapon enhancement that way.

Rom001 wrote:
Ashiel has made an interesting suggestion/experiment using psionics. However, for continuity (also meaning not adding too much more to the CRB), could looking in more depth regarding the ki pool solve the problem of monks having to rely on magical items/enchantments?

Could yes, in terms of buffs and the like. But I don't think it's the answer to all, or even the main problems. Certainly some of them, though.

Rom001 wrote:
Master Arminas has also made a good observation that ki should be finite VS infinite.

Agreed. This is really where the enhancement issue falls down, for other classes added enhancement, where it happens at all, happens as a boost to an existing magic weapon. It's never intended to be the magic weapon from the RAW.

Rom001 wrote:
Sooooo, if ki was readily more available then Vow of Poverty wouldn't hinder the class and would make a better role-playing device. A more self-reliant monk if you will. Amulet of Mighty Fist could maybe keep it's current price and then maybe there would be no need to create weapons/items specifically for monks.

See my comment above. What the monk needs for this is permanent enhancement, not ki tricks that will run out. I agree absolutely that they should be capped and work with the AoMF, in this way it remains important without becoming as essential or making it's limitations so keenly felt.

Among the first suggestions I made were that we need either an ability, feat or item to give the existing monk a boost to hit. It does not need to be a full enhancement to hit and damage unless we are re-writing the monk from scratch, just a bonus to hit that can bypass DR as an enhanced weapon can. This can work in conjunction with the AoMF providing special properties, making it less important but still very useful.

Rom001 wrote:
Although I'd like to see ideas for monk items/weapons to still be bounced around for role-playing/item creation purposes more so that folks won't make unbalancing/overpowered items.

An automatic enhancement to unarmed strike up to +5 with the AoMF stacking on top for properties is (I think) the way to handle the issue of enhancement.

I confess I still think that abandoning the semi-full BAB is a good idea, and adopting fighter-style weapon training with monk weapons (only) is a good way to go to make the monk a 3/4 BAB class with near-full BAB with certain weapons.

For an item, failing the automatic enhancement something that gave a bonus to hit (only) to attacks would be handed - I suggested a ring priced at {enhancement squared} x 3000gp capped at +5 to hit, with the bonus applying to any weapon and allowing them to bypass DR as that weapon enhancement.


I created a new thread for collecting ideas for improving the ki pool ability of the monk in one place.

Andoran

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
zagnabbit wrote:
master arminas wrote:

How would you guys feels about a mechanic for ki strike similar to a paladin's bonded weapon, or a magi's arcane strike? Where you spend a point of ki to get an actual enhancement bonus to your unarmed strikes for a short period of time (and, ala both abilities, can choose to add special weapon properties instead of enhancement bonuses).

Master Arminas

I'd say no to flaming fists. I thought that was cheesy in 3.5 (though mechanically those feats were quite good).

As a straight enhancement boost or an overcomes all DR thing I could see it.
I also agree that it would have to be a one minute duration, anything less would devour Ki far to fast to be of much use.

Maybe something that prolonged a stun for another round would work, but stuns are powerful when they start to rob multiple actions.

I remember that! Wasn't it like Complete Combat or something like that, the supplement that essentially allowed you to create Ryu from Street Fighter? You could take Flaming Fists and then a feat that let you throw balls of flaming ki as a ranged attack?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Mods, this thread should probably be in Homebrew at this point, as that's what the thread is now about.


@Cheapy
I agree or we should just let it go at this point, it's a multi tangent opus now.

@Ssalarn
Yep, Ken and Ryu's best moves. I played with a guy who had the whole tree, he was even called Goku. 8 ). Fun character but a little over the top for my tastes.
It did show a trend toward the end of 3.5 to treat the Monk as a pseudocaster, the fulfillment was the Swordsage from the Book of 9 Swords. The Monk/Blaster.

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