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I believe in this case, Paizo should just write out exactly what they wish for FoB to be, and then release it in a beta to get feed back and to make sure the optimizers can pick over the wording, and then release it fully, and errata Core with this entry.
This is a very constructive suggestion, BYC. Problem is, with the monk it's more a case of 'is this powerful enough?' than it is 'is this too powerful?'
I can see the dev's logic behind making it like TWF. If you streamline things, it makes it easier later on. I liken it to mass producing vs. custom making. When you mass produce something, and everything is built from the same mold, all you have to do is change the mold, and it all changes. When you custome make things, you have a lot of changes to make if something needs to be altered.
The way the majority of us read FoB, it was a custom job. Nothing else works like it. The Dev's wanted it to fit in a mold for easier alteration. The problem being, too many other parts will built off that custom job.
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I believe in this case, Paizo should just write out exactly what they wish for FoB to be, and then release it in a beta to get feed back and to make sure the optimizers can pick over the wording, and then release it fully, and errata Core with this entry.This is a very constructive suggestion, BYC. Problem is, with the monk it's more a case of 'is this powerful enough?' than it is 'is this too powerful?'
That's a design question that Paizo will not let us see, and it's highly subjective as well.
From a DPR standpoint, it never seemed to be broken on either end (as in too good or totally useless).
I've felt for a while now that monk didn't have a good niche. Monks, similar to rogues, are generally 2nd best at everything, and I think that's a terrible position to be in, especially for a class that has a lot of selfish buffs and abilities. I still don't really know what role a monk has that another class can't do better. Fast movement isn't until later, and it doesn't stack with various boots or Haste (since it's enhancement, unless some bonus names have changed). FoB is solid in the previous version, but monks generally ended up getting magic weapons since AoMF is really expensive. Abundant Step doesn't stop casters unless you take feats, and can leave you vulnerable in general since you can't take actions afterwards. Have to really really work at getting good AC. MAD, and pretty hard to play using 15 points. Doesn't do combat moves as well as other classes without an archetype. Good saves, but so what if you are not a threat? Style feats are just more feats the monk needs to take just to catch up.
Monk just need more help in general. UM and UC made them better, but FoB nerf/clarification just moved them all the way back, if not worse than before.
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I can see the dev's logic behind making it like TWF. If you streamline things, it makes it easier later on. I liken it to mass producing vs. custom making. When you mass produce something, and everything is built from the same mold, all you have to do is change the mold, and it all changes. When you custome make things, you have a lot of changes to make if something needs to be altered.
The way the majority of us read FoB, it was a custom job. Nothing else works like it. The Dev's wanted it to fit in a mold for easier alteration. The problem being, too many other parts will built off that custom job.
Problem is, it's STILL a custom job, because FoB is not like TWF, even with the new ruling. So the new ruling doesn't standardise it, makes things more complex and reduces the monk's effectiveness.
If Paizo had made the monk a full BAB class with TWF feat tree feats thrown in free, THEN they would have standardised it.
That's a design question that Paizo will not let us see, and it's highly subjective as well.
From a DPR standpoint, it never seemed to be broken on either end (as in too good or totally useless).
No, if anything even with the old system the monk needed a power-up. I have to say, though, that the Agile weapon property - which I was unaware of - does even up the power scale a little, both for monks and dex-based fighters. Problem is that the thing you need to apply it to unarmed attacks is so darned expensive, you can't realistically get it until relatively high level.
I've felt for a while now that monk didn't have a good niche. Monks, similar to rogues, are generally 2nd best at everything, and I think that's a terrible position to be in, especially for a class that has a lot of selfish buffs and abilities. I still don't really know what role a monk has that another class can't do better. Fast movement isn't until later, and it doesn't stack with various boots or Haste (since it's enhancement, unless some bonus names have changed). FoB is solid in the previous version, but monks generally ended up getting magic weapons since AoMF is really expensive. Abundant Step doesn't stop casters unless you take feats, and can leave you vulnerable in general since you can't take actions afterwards. Have to really really work at getting good AC. MAD, and pretty hard to play using 15 points. Doesn't do combat moves as well as other classes without an archetype. Good saves, but so what if you are not a threat? Style feats are just more feats the monk needs to take just to catch up.
Monks have a niche, that of being the fall-back guy, the mobile reserve, the extra help you can count on. Problem is that while defensively good against anything but direct melee attacks, there's not much the monk can do to somebody that another class cannot do a lot better.
Monk just need more help in general. UM and UC made them better, but FoB nerf/clarification just moved them all the way back, if not worse than before.
Thing is it wouldn't take much to even the score. Brass Knuckles were fantastic, until somebody decided that they made the AoMF redundant (they didn't).
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This clarification is astounding;
Time is fleeting;
MADness takes its toll.
But listen closely...
Not for very much longer.
I've got to keep control.
I remember doing the flurry
Drinking those moments when
The Blackness would hit me
And the void would be calling...
Let's do the monk nerf again.
Let's do the monk nerf again.
It's just a small boost to the left.
And then a big nerf to the right.
DISCLAIMER: Just kidding.
As somebody who is partly against this clarification. I am disappointed that the monk is less awesome than it should be. And yes the AoMF is heavily over priced thanks to druids and anything else with a natural attack. But what people are forgetting is that not every class should be doing the most damage on the battlefield. Monks have their strong points, fighters have theirs.
Monks are a priest class.
I know that this will simply end with a rewording and Flurry of Blows will become Two Weapon Flurry. This saddens me because of the cool flavour. At least monks can "dual wield" unarmed strike. :P
This all came to light thanks to a discussion on the AoMF (I think) and this is an item that might need rethinking. After keeping an eye on the forums, I can see where the problem lies. The AoMF needs to be divided into two separate items (imo). One which boosts all natural attacks, an Amulet of the Wilds (if you will). And an Amulet of Mighty Fists, which boosts unarmed strike(s). Then drop the cost of possibly both to at most 2x that of a normal weapon enhancement (what any other TWF class pays). Sure you can argue its one item in one slot boosting two weapons, but its an important slot. (I really hate giving up on that Amulet of Natural armour)
That would be my suggestion.
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Monks have a niche, that of being the fall-back guy, the mobile reserve, the extra help you can count on. Problem is that while defensively good against anything but direct melee attacks, there's not much the monk can do to somebody that another class cannot do a lot better.
I really wish monks were a better melee support class or support class in general. As an example...
I've been thinking of playing a halfling bard lately. He would take the Helpful halfling racial trait for +4 on aid another. He would have bardic performance. His starting spells were going to be Saving Finale and maybe Sleep or something else. He was going take Weapon Finesse and then use a whip and sap. The whip can trip, plus I can aid another from 15' out with the +4 bonus. That's a lot of options for a character that is not going to be dealing much damage, but still contributing to the party. I was even thinking of taking Enforcer feat to do auto-intimidate checks when I do non-lethal damage so I can give out the shaken condition. Sure it's a -4 because I'm a halfling, but being a bard with good CHA (at least 16, if not 18 starting), I was thinking of just eating the penalty for the extra -2 penalty to assist with my melee allies. And most of these things are easily doable.
A monk has really work at what he wants to do, and that just annoys me that this class has to work that hard to be effective at something.
My use of monks is as the go-get guy, for example: Enemy hides behind mooks? Monk go-gets him and ties him down until the rest of the party finish with the mooks. Otherwise, the monk's mobility is all he has over the other classes.
Battlefield control? arcane casters and fighters can both do it better.
Damage dealing? Fighter/paladin/barbarian/ranger does it better.
Resisting in melee? FPBR does it better (better AC, better hit points)
Saves & resistances? Paladin does it better.
Special Powers? Casters do it better.
Skills? Rogue does it better.
All the monk has is a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none set of abilities. These can work well, but it isn't easy to get them to do so.
@Skull
I suggested something similar. The objection to items which a monk can use with unarmed damage is that is makes the AoMF redundant. My suggestion was have an item that fills two slots (hands and feet) at a much lower price.
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This all came to light thanks to a discussion on the AoMF (I think) and this is an item that might need rethinking. After keeping an eye on the forums, I can see where the problem lies. The AoMF needs to be divided into two separate items (imo). One which boosts all natural attacks, an Amulet of the Wilds (if you will). And an Amulet of Mighty Fists, which boosts unarmed strike(s). Then drop the cost of possibly both to at most 2x that of a normal weapon enhancement (what any other TWF class pays). Sure you can argue its one item in one slot boosting two weapons, but its an important slot. (I really hate giving up on that Amulet of Natural armour)That would be my suggestion.
This is moving away from the flurry discussion, but I think the real problem isn't the Amulet of Mighty Fists, but that the Amulet of Mighty Fists itself was an attempt to fix a class via an item rather than, say... just fixing the class (and we weren't helping by suggesting more monk items, but I know it made sense to me at the time...). And this goes back to 3.x obviously.
The problems with the monk stem from the fact that its concept does not mesh well with a few fundamental concepts/mechanics that the game is flooded with.
The monk concept is ostensibly that of an unarmed, unarmored warrior--someone who does not need gear to kick ass. Yes, there's skillmonkey and defensive aspects to the class too, and the use of some special weapons. But usually, if someone says, "I wanna play someone who pummels things like a kung fu action star," they are first and most obviously drawn to the monk class. Particularly if you are looking at core only, the monk stands out as the only way to build an unarmed striking specialist (unarmed specialists are possible to build with other core classes, but not in the same, standout way the monk does).
The PROBLEM is that certain mechanics "demand" that all characters be gear reliant, even the ostensibly non-gear reliant monk. There are two
1. "Big Six" reliance
The game assumes the average PC will eventually be equipped with a magic weapon that grants enhancements to attack and damage, a cloak of resistance to boost saves, magic armor, a source of deflection bonus to AC (usually an ROP), a source of natural armor (usually an amulet of natural armor), and at least 1 stat boosting item.
If you look at most monsters in the Bestiary, their to-hit bonus, their AC, their saving throws, and the saves required to resist these abilities will assume that a PC of a level equal to their CR will have these six items, more or less. (A long time ago Kolokotroni made a thorough post showing how this generally was true.) To the degree that, say, if you DON'T have a weapon with a magic enhancement bonus, your chances to hit a monster of an appropriate CR to you are much lower than average.
If you play a monk focusing on unarmed, unarmored combat, you will not have two of these items (magic weapon, magic armor). Your chances to hit and to defense drop, more than your class abilities can make up for (monk's armor bonus does not come close to being able to wear magic armor). You need a lot of stat boosters to make up for it, which may not all be available at the same time.
PCs are assumed to have enhancement bonuses to attacks--and yet if you are a monk trying to attack unarmed, you won't have those enhancement bonuses and further will be at a penalty to hit if you're trying to flurry.
And further, if you try to make up for the lack of magic weapons with an amulet of mighty fists, you must give up your natural armor slot (which again screws you out of something else you need, a good AC).
If you want to play a monk and be able to hit things at your CR, you have two choices--one is the expensive amulet of mighty fists and one is using a monk weapon. If you were hoping to play that non-gear reliant punching machine, you're SOL. More to the point, nothing within the monk class helps you deal with this. You MUST rely on gear--and a generous GM--and possibly at the expense of your character concept.
2. Damage Reduction
Bear in mind here that I generally have a bug up my nose when it comes to DR, I have come to hate it with a burning passion. As a GM, I just see it as a clumsy mechanic that slows down combat and a way to make PCs obsessed with getting special weapons rather than other cool, fun stuff they ought to be more interested in instead. Yes, you can say no, but the whole conversation just gets boring.
A LOT of creatures have DR. A LOT of them do. If it were the case that only a handful of creatures were immune or resistant to a few attacks, I'd be fine. But DR can come up a lot, especially if you play a campaign with certain themes (don't play a monk in a Planescape game where everyone's an Outsider...).
Unarmed monks can only bypass 3 types of DR -- magic at 4th level (and only if they've got a ki point left), adamantine at 16th, and lawful at 20th.
The magic is fine--4th level is also the time other PCs start getting magic items. Adamantine at 16th? Given you can start meeting creatures at as low as CR 5 that have DR/adamantine (the ice golem), that's not very helpful (especially since most campaigns, including published Adventure Paths, end at 15th level). And do correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there were creatures with DR/lawful until the Bestiary 2. I'm sure the core monks played at the beginning of Pathfinder pre B2 were thrilled. Apart from the magic, it is much, much too little, much much too late.
Again, rather than fix this in the monk class writeup, the only way out is pretty much weapon or AOMF. If you just want to be awesome at being truly unarmed.... your choice is pretty much to play a different game.
(Now, it should go without saying that if your monk concept relies on swinging sai or a kama around, then you don't have to worry about this as much. Just remember you need two now.... but you should have to have a weapon-based concept to make the monk work--IMHO, of course)
We've ALL obviously looked at the issue from the viewpoint of "fix the AOMF" or "make a newer, better monk magic item."
Really, I have realized, it should be "fix the monk class writeup so common game mechanics no longer make the class flavor difficult to play."
Probably both issues--getting enhancement bonuses to attack and bypassing DR--could probably dealt with new ki abilities, as has been touched upon in a few of these threads. At level 4, spend a ki point, treat unarmed strikes as +1 for a round. It's not powerful because it relies on the ki resource, and it's limited, but it helps it be more viable. At level 8, you can get a +2 bonus, at 12, a +3 bonus, etc.
A similar ki power could help you bypass DR temporarily. Or make a "steel fist" class skill that allows you to be able to bypass more forms of DR as you level.
Flurry's least of the issues here--but I bet if abilities to enhance unarmed attacks were added to the monk class, flurry could be re-written as something much simpler (extra attack under x circumstances) and the class would feel as effective if not more. Just a thought.
Deathquaker, that is a very accurate diagnosis of the problem.
I have suggested feats as a way out of the problem or adjusting the class with a bonus to hit unarmed, or allowing a weapon feature that allows the monk to use unarmed damage through a weapon.
Problem is, as you point out, that AoMF is not a real fix. If it bypasses DR, you are sacrificing bonuses to hit. Agile feature could help a lot, but again your to-hit chance is reduced - remember the AoMF is limited to +5 of total enhancements.
So it isn't a fix, and we have to be careful because by supplying a fix, we have to bear in mind that the monk is still going to have WBL to spend on items. This isn't too bad in one respect, if the monk goes all out for defensive items he still cannot beat the fighter's AC by anything significant.
How do we then address the matter of the monk's chances to hit?
Either we break from the program and create a new class feature, one that gives up to a +5 to hit bonus to the unarmed monk, or we create a feat that does this beyond Weapon Focus, or we work with the system as is and use an item.
The reason I would go with an item is simply because re-writing the entire class is not really a viable option. Adding in a new feat or item is.
@ DeathQuaker,
You raise a good point. (just a correction, ki strike lawful is @lvl10)
Adamantine at level 16 is really bad. And as I was reading the DR issues I remembered that there are fighting styles (mostly in fantasy) where you use chi and softer palm attacks to damage your foes internally. This would bypass DR imo as no matter how tough your skin/shell/whatever is or how much training you have against pain. Nobody can train their internal organs. The easiest exsample that most people might have seen this in would be in the anime Naruto. Maybe we just need to change ki strike to become a ki ability rather than a sille "can bypass 3 DRs" ability.
Something like spend 1 ki to bypass all DR for 1 round. This might sound too strong, but ki pools are very small and the monk can still only attack what is next to him. Or maybe half damage goes through DR.
The other thing I can think of, also to change ki strike is, the monk's AoMF is limited to a +5 enhancement. Why not rather make ki strike give an enhancement bonus as well. to a maximum of +5, starting at level 4 and working its way up. Then drop the bypass DR thing, but let is have the same one that magic items have. (+3 cold iron/silver, +4 adamantine, +5 alignment based). Wait, why was the monk getting adamantine @ lvl16 and lawful @ lvl0. From this it looks like those 2 needed to be swapped around..
Ah well. Just playing around with a few ideas. Let me know what people think.
Edit: Just noticed that the slow fall progression could have worked well for my monk enhancement bonus idea. Starts @ +2 @ level 4, then goes up with 1 every 3 levels. to +9 @ lvl18. This does bring the monk back to needing less items, but lets face it. the monk is a class that will need 2 stat boost items, one of which will boost at least two stats (3 if you can afford it).
@DQ - Very well-put post. The only issue that really rises that you didn't address is that a monk who uses weapons doesn't really solve his "to-hit" problem, but instead trades it with a "damage" problem.
Monks have zero damage buffs from class. Everything would have to come from the weapon itself, and monk weapons have horrid damage values (a d8 is the cream-of-the-crop and the only monk weapon to have it has it's usefulness suddenly up in the air because of the FoB clarity issues [temple sword]).
So at the end of the day, you wouldn't have a working class. You'd have a Monk who could suddenly hit everything, but is STILL looking with jealousy at his Bar/Ftr/Pal/Rng friend who is absolutely destroying him for damage dealt, because of a lack of non-unarmed offensive class options on a class that hasn't had it's MAD issues addressed and/or a required reliance on a very specific weapon enchantment that other characters wouldn't be required to purchase just to "keep up" (Agile Weapon).
If waiting until level 16 to bypass adamantine is bad, the suggested change to offer a +1 bonus every 4 levels wouldn't change anything, because the monk would still be level 16 before bypassing adamantine. (Admittedly, you'd already be bypassing Magic, Cold-Iron, and Silver, so you wouldn't notice the delay anywhere nearly as much.)
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The monk concept is ostensibly that of an unarmed, unarmored warrior--someone who does not need gear to kick ass. Yes, there's skillmonkey and defensive aspects to the class too, and the use of some special weapons. But usually, if someone says, "I wanna play someone who pummels things like a kung fu action star," they are first and most obviously drawn to the monk class. Particularly if you are looking at core only, the monk stands out as the only way to build an unarmed striking specialist (unarmed specialists are possible to build with other core classes, but not in the same, standout way the monk does).
The PROBLEM is that certain mechanics "demand" that all characters be gear reliant, even the ostensibly non-gear reliant monk. There are two
Honestly, this whole post. I'd much rather the monk had a way to live up to their flavor via their own mechanics rather than having to use a new piece of equipment to do it.
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** spoiler omitted **+1
When I first saw Blood Crow Strike this was my first idea. Build a LG monk that learns this technique. But the more you use it, the more it eats at your soul. To remain good, you will need to try to use it only when you have no other choice. Also do more acts of good to restore the balance in your soul.
The GM I discussed this with didn't like it too much though.
In short think Ryu with the Dark Hadou growing inside of him :P
And that's certainly a cool approach for a good monk, but it just shouldn't be the only way to do it. (especially since it's something you get way down the line at 14th level, when most Adventure Paths are wrapping up)
I'd love to have a Hadoken option that drew upon the monk's strength and purity of spirit and possibly celestial blessings, something that was alight with good or at least not dripping with evil.(even arbitrarily assigned evil)
Re-doing unarmed attacks as a special form of TWF can certainly work.
Just label the monks unarmed strikes as light weapons and say that with Light Weapons (and Monk weapons) the monk has a BAB of Level and the TWF feats for free.
Done.
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Something like spend 1 ki to bypass all DR for 1 round. This might sound too strong, but ki pools are very small and the monk can still only attack what is next to him. Or maybe half damage goes through DR.
The other thing I can think of, also to change ki strike is, the monk's AoMF is limited to a +5 enhancement. Why not rather make ki strike give an enhancement bonus as well. to a maximum of +5, starting at level 4 and working its way up. Then drop the bypass DR thing, but let is have the same one that magic items have. (+3 cold iron/silver, +4 adamantine, +5 alignment based). Wait, why was the monk getting adamantine @ lvl16 and lawful @ lvl0. From this it looks like those 2 needed to be swapped around..
Ah well. Just playing around with a few ideas. Let me know what people think.
Edit: Just noticed that the slow fall progression could have worked well for my monk enhancement bonus idea. Starts @ +2 @ level 4, then goes up with 1 every 3 levels. to +9 @ lvl18. This does bring the monk back to needing less items, but lets face it. the monk is a class that will need 2 stat boost items, one of which will boost at least two stats (3 if you can afford it).
OK, taking this further to something practical that can be inserted in the existing Monk framework, I would suggest the following options:
Feats:
Ki Focussed Strike
You can deliver damage that bypasses your foe's normal defences.
Pre-requisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Ki-pool.
Benefit: When you expend a point of ki, you unarmed blows (or blows with a ki focus weapon) may for that round ignore any damage resistance or hardness your target may have.
Improved Ki Focussed Strike
You can deliver an attack that bypasses most of your target's defences.
Pre-requisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Ki-pool, Ki Focussed Strike.
Benefit: When you expend a point of ki, your next unarmed blow (or blow with a ki focus weapon) is resolved as a touch attack, also ignoring any hardness or damage resistance. For the rest of your turn your blows (or blows with a ki focus weapon) may ignore any damage resistance or hardness your target may have.
Ki Enhanced Strike
You can amplify the benefits of your ki strike.
Pre-requisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, ki strike.
Benefit: Your unarmed strikes (or strikes with a ki focus weapon)gain an Enhancement bonus to hit. For every four monk levels that you have, your unarmed strikes gain a +1 enhancement bonus to hit, to a maximum of +5.
Alternate Wording:
Benefit: Your unarmed strikes (or strikes with a ki focus weapon)gain an Enhancement bonus to hit. For every ki feat that you possess, your unarmed strikes gain a +1 enhancement bonus to hit, to a maximum of +5. Ki feats are any feats that mention ki in their title (Extra ki, Ki Throw, etc).
Items:
Gloves & Tabi of Striking
Aura feint evocation CL 5th
Slot Hands & Feet Price Enhancement bonus squared x 2,500gp.
DESCRIPTION
These gloves and tabi can only work if the set is worn in both hand and foot slots. The provide an enhancement bonus as a weapon to unarmed strikes, and may possess weapon qualities. The maximum enhancement equivelant is +10.
CONSTRUCTION
Craft Magic Arms & Armour, greater magic weapon, creator’s caster level must be at least three times the amulet’s bonus, plus any requirements of the melee weapon special abilities; Cost bonus squared x 1,250gp.
Item Property:
Greater Ki Focus: As ki focus, a monk with these weapons can apply their ki abilities that they would normally focus through an unarmed strike through a weapon with this quality. Furthermore, the monk may substitute their unarmed strike damage for the damage dice of the weapon if they wish.
Dabbler, I REALLY like those feats (the wondrous items too, but particularly the feats). And yep, that way no one has to worry about editing core.
** spoiler omitted **+1
When I first saw Blood Crow Strike this was my first idea. Build a LG monk that learns this technique. But the more you use it, the more it eats at your soul. To remain good, you will need to try to use it only when you have no other choice. Also do more acts of good to restore the balance in your soul.
The GM I discussed this with didn't like it too much though.
In short think Ryu with the Dark Hadou growing inside of him :P
And that's certainly a cool approach for a good monk, but it just shouldn't be the only way to do it. (especially since it's something you get way down the line at 14th level, when most Adventure Paths are wrapping up)
I'd love to have a Hadoken option that drew upon the monk's strength and purity of spirit and possibly celestial blessings, something that was alight with good or at least not dripping with evil.(even arbitrarily assigned evil)
While it would be a houserule:
Just rename the ability, change the alignment descriptor, swap negative energy for positive energy and write some fluff where the monks who have learned the dark secret of the Blood Crow Strike are opposed by the those orders of monks who practice the White Falcon Technique.
Dabbler, I REALLY like those feats (the wondrous items too, but particularly the feats). And yep, that way no one has to worry about editing core.
From you, DeathQuaker, that is a compliment.
I don't think these rock the boat too much either. The Ki Focussed Strike only bypasses DR for a round, at the cost of ki. It's nice, but depletes a limited resource. Improved Ki Focussed Strike is much better, but it's a second feat in a chain, and it's functionally very similar to Greater Psionic Fist. Your monk can 'get in a good one' with this feat, but he's not going to be able to do this every round.
Ki Enhanced Strike is not unbalanced and does not make magic weapons redundant; it's an enhancement bonus to hit only, not to damage, and it so won't stack with a magic item which you would need to get the bonus damage as well - although it will help with a weapon with the ki focused property and a low enhancement. Even so, compared to a fighter (paladin, ranger or barbarian for that matter) it's +5 to hit, where the fighter could have +5 to hit and +8 to damage from abilities alone over and above what the monk would have. The monk remains behind the curve, just not as far behind the curve. It can work well with an AoMF supplying the other enhancement effects - damage will be left sub-par, but the monk's unarmed strike scales sufficiently in damage to offset this.
The Gloves & Tabi of Striking don't make the AoMF redundant - they are half the price, and go up to +10, but takes up two slots. Appropriate, as they effectively make the whole body a viable weapon, but if you want slots rather than economy, Ki Enhanced Strike and an AoMF are much better.
Greater Ki Focus is ideal for the weapon-wielding monk. Yes, it means a kama can be doing 2d10 damage at 20th level, which is wicked with flurry-of-blows. However, I missed out above that Greater Ki Focus should be worth a +2 bonus. Taking that off a weapon can make a big difference - a +2 bonus equivelant off a weapon can take off 2d6 damage from the total. Subtract that from your 2d10, and it's not so bad at all.
Dabbler, those are solid.
More importantly, they are easy to implement.
They would significantly push up the value of Extra Ki.
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First, I don't think monks are inferior. They are a style choice. Play a max-DPS build if your main concern is monk's inability to compete with other classes' damage output. Nobody is faster, can jump higher or can lockdown a caster better (except a char specialized in steal). They have their rightful niche in the game.
I'd like to see some posters offer a clarified wording of the flurry of blows power that accurately describes all the developer dialogue so far.
We're still waiting on the Devs for a final decision on FoB.
Thanks, Zagnabit, I can't take all the credit, though, Skull put the idea in my head, I just refined it and formatted it.
Okay, I am back. There have been some good ideas and commentary in my absence, for which I would like to thank everyone. Deathquaker especially gave me the idea for creating a monk class that doesn't rely as heavily on magic items, which I have already posted. Dabbler has done some good work on feats as well, to which I say well done.
Master Arminas
First, I don't think monks are inferior. They are a style choice. Play a max-DPS build if your main concern is monk's inability to compete with other classes' damage output. Nobody is faster, can jump higher or can lockdown a caster better (except a char specialized in steal). They have their rightful niche in the game.
I'd like to see some posters offer a clarified wording of the flurry of blows power that accurately describes all the developer dialogue so far.
Problem with Monks? Speed is an enhancement bonus meaning Haste gives them nothing. 90 ft max means only 10 ft more than Hasted Barbarians (assuming have Boots of Striding).
So they aren't really that much faster, so they do'nt jump that much farther, and they don't really lock down anyone.
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While it would be a houserule:
Just rename the ability, change the alignment descriptor, swap negative energy for positive energy and write some fluff where the monks who have learned the dark secret of the Blood Crow Strike are opposed by the those orders of monks who practice the White Falcon Technique.
I went ahead and houseruled a good version for my games some time back, Soul Raven Strike. Replaces the negative energy aspect with a something similar to a Celestial Sorcerer's heavenly fire attack. That way it cancels out and does nothing against good targets, does half damage on neutral targets, and full damage on evil targets.
Of course that doesn't help me as a player.
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Items:
Gloves & Tabi of Striking
Aura feint evocation CL 5th
Slot Hands & Feet Price Enhancement bonus squared x 2,500gp.
DESCRIPTION
These gloves and tabi can only work if the set is worn in both hand and foot slots. The provide an enhancement bonus as a weapon to unarmed strikes, and may possess weapon qualities. The maximum enhancement equivelant is +10.
CONSTRUCTION
Craft Magic Arms & Armour, greater magic weapon, creator’s caster level must be at least three times the amulet’s bonus, plus any requirements of the melee weapon special abilities; Cost bonus squared x 1,250gp.
There's precedent for this, too. In Legacy of Fire, there's a magic weapon.
Simply put, giving monks a magic set of handwraps does not break the game. Bonus Squared * 2500 or 3000 isn't too much to ask, but personally, the monk has paid enough dues. Just make it a regular weapon cost and have it only apply to unarmed strike so it doesn't completely displace AoMF for the other uses.
The other option is get rid of Ki strike, and let monks spend Ki to give an enhancement bonus to their unarmed strikes for minutes per level akin to Divine Bond. Scale it the same way, and boom, problem solved. It even has the elegance of templating off of an existing ability.
I didn't know about that item, Unmitigated. I prefer the feats and items method of 'fixing' simply because they allow the existing monk to continue as is, but better. If we want a complete re-write of the monk, we'll have to wait until Pathfinder 2.0, and that isn't even in consideration yet. New feats and items can be included in the next adventure path or supplement.
You posted the feats/items in Homebrew, Dabbler? Might get the attention of other folks.
Likewise the stuff y'all are suggesting for Bloodcrow Strike.
Sliska, this is the best I can do with the Flurry interpretation as brought up by SKR a week or two ago. This is TOTALLY my interpretation only, my best effort to understand what was said:
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. This works like two-weapon fighting, as if the monk had the Two-Weapon Fighting Feat, but the monk may only attack with unarmed strikes or a special monk weapon. Since this works as two-weapon fighting, any extra attacks made are made with the off-hand or an unarmed strike. The monk does not need to meet the prerequisites for the Two-Weapon Fighting feat to use flurry of blows. The monk is not considered to have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for any other purpose, such as qualifying for other feats on the Two-Weapon Fighting tree.
At 8th level, this ability works as if the monk had Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. At 15th, it works as if the monk had Greater Two-Weapon Fighting.
For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, even if the attacks are made with a weapon in his off hand. ((Removed text about "or with a weapon in both his hands" as if this is supposed to be TWF, you can't hold a weapon in both your hands.))
A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. ((DQ note: not sure if these maneuvers must be considered primary or off hand attacks)). A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
This of course may CHANGE (if it's right at all) when the developers review the situation.
The more things change, the more they remain the same. Hahah.
Master Arminas
You posted the feats/items in Homebrew, Dabbler? Might get the attention of other folks.
Yes, they are here.
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So, if flurry is two-weapon fighting, does that mean a multi-armed monk can take multi-weapon fighting? And gain an additional attack for each arm? Seems the Marilith monk just became top dog if true.
Master Arminas
LOL, I think if FoB was deliberately designed to stop a monk using TWF, then they won't let them use MWF either.
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i think the class that should be a punch your face off badass needs a total retooling. if FoB is TWF, then give him access to TWF feats.
fix the 3/4 BAB class and grant him the ability to be effective, along with a non-migraine inducing way of getting his UAS to be useful. Don't give the character a strong suit and set the rules in such opposition that he doesn't have access to it.
may just roll a wizard in my game and be done with it. gah.
So, if flurry is two-weapon fighting, does that mean a multi-armed monk can take multi-weapon fighting? And gain an additional attack for each arm? Seems the Marilith monk just became top dog if true.
Master Arminas
As far as I can tell from checking the Bestiary and the rules for Eidolons, having extra arms automatically gives extra weapon attacks. The Multiweapon Fighting feat, like the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, merely reduces the penalties for doing so.
I cannot be certain because I cannot find the rule. I suspect it is an unwritten rule, which annoys me. Some builds assume it. It appears that each extra arm gives an extra weapon attack during a full-attack action with standard two-weapon fighting penalties where one arm is the primary hand and the rest are off hand. The Marilith demon has one arm doing 2d6+8 damage and the other five arms doing 2d6+4 damage. Thus, a creature with a hundred arms still favors one.
This contrasts sharply with Improved Unarmed Strike, which allows striking with at least different nine body parts but does not give any extra attacks. Correction: not Improved Unarmed Strike, but proficiency with unarmed strike, an ability that every player character has from the beginning.
And a Marilith does not need Multiweapon Fighting because it already has Multiweapon Mastery, which removes all penalties to attack rolls for multiweapon fighting.
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This really, really irritates me. It is reaching dealbreaker status for Pathfinder for me along with the other problems I've been having lately.
I can name so many martial arts movies where the monk-type character attacks with the same weapon multiple times at speeds unequaled to a regular fighter it isn't even funny. You can look at endless stream of Honk Kong martial arts movies to see how we all assumed Flurry of Blows worked. Was the monk designed to emulate a fantasy martial artist or not?
How many sources can we come up with where a martial arts type attacks multiple times with the same weapon.
1. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon: Single sword, definitely reaching an insane number of attacks.
2. Polearm and spear fighting in various movies from The Shaw Brothers. They are spear and polearm specialists who attack with supernatural speed.
3. Superkick fighting styles where a guy uses his strong leg to attack someone over and over again with the same leg.
4. Sword styles period: How many martial arts movies have you seen a monk use more than one sword? Usually a sword style involves attacking with one sword over and over again.
I'm not sure what SKR and Buhlman are talking about. Maybe neither of them want the monk in the game because they don't seem to have watched many martial arts movies. I was assuming the person that designed the monk had, which is why they made sure to simulate several different fighting styles when they expanded monk weapons and the like.
I play Pathfinder because it simulates the fantasy classes better than 4E did. If they are going to start focusing too much on rules balance rather than on proper simulation like worrying about the two-weapon fighter having to use two weapons while the monk only has to buy one, then the game is shifting more to balance and away from proper simulation.
The martial arts types definitely can attack at supernatural speeds with a single weapon over and over and over again. And usually it is their best weapon be it a sword, superkick, venom fist, or any other special attack they utilize to simulate their style. It's a part of the martial arts fantasy genre to be able to do this. Even Samurai did this in the Japanese Samurai movies. Zatoichi or Yojimbo were definitely monk/fighers using one sword over and over again at supernatural speeds.
And the reason it is a dealbreaker is because they are making a change that no one asked for, no one was complaining about, hasn't been a game balance issue, and is being applied to a class already known for offensive weakness. When you start to make changes your customers don't ask for and aren't necessary to make the game more balanced or playable, you start to make mistakes in game design that damage your game.
I ask for Buhlman, SKR, and any other Paizo officials to ask yourself the following questions:
1. Does this make your game better?
2. Does this make your customers happy?
3. Was anyone complaining about this issue from a game balance perspective?
4. Is the monk a class on these forums that you have ever seen brought up as overpowered, unbalanced, or in anyway in need of a change to make them offensively weaker?
The monk already suffers from Multiple Ability Disorder which inherently limits their offensive capabilities. I think that balances the fact the fighter might have to spend a little more on an off-hand weapon. They get to focus on a couple of stats, max BAB, and have tons of feats to make up for the slight advantage the monk has in two-weapon fighting by getting feats like Penetrating Strike, Double Specialization, Crit Feats so their attacks have effects, and the like. There is no way anyone at Paizo can paint the two-weapon fighter as offensively weaker than the two-weapon-based monk.
I played a two-weapon fighter in the same group as a monk. I far outdamaged the monk. My crit damage was higher and I had more crit effects which completely neutralized my enemy. My damage output due to Weapon Spec, Weapon Training Equivalent, Power Attack, and my limited focus on Str once my dex was high enough made me a much more lethal fighter than a monk. I also hit more often.
I once again advise Paizo not to make an issue where there was none. Not good for your game and not good for your business.
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Relax, Maddigan. It's still under review, it seems.
I'm down with the clarification.
How many sources can we come up with where a martial arts type attacks multiple times with the same weapon.
1. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon: Single sword, definitely reaching an insane number of attacks.
2. Polearm and spear fighting in various movies from The Shaw Brothers. They are spear and polearm specialists who attack with supernatural speed.
3. Superkick fighting styles where a guy uses his strong leg to attack someone over and over again with the same leg.
4. Sword styles period: How many martial arts movies have you seen a monk use more than one sword? Usually a sword style involves attacking with one sword over and over again.
5. Fist of the North Star, where Kenshiro's ATATATATA! is performed with a single fist.
5. Fist of the North Star, where Kenshiro's ATATATATA! is performed with a single fist.How many sources can we come up with where a martial arts type attacks multiple times with the same weapon.
1. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon: Single sword, definitely reaching an insane number of attacks.
2. Polearm and spear fighting in various movies from The Shaw Brothers. They are spear and polearm specialists who attack with supernatural speed.
3. Superkick fighting styles where a guy uses his strong leg to attack someone over and over again with the same leg.
4. Sword styles period: How many martial arts movies have you seen a monk use more than one sword? Usually a sword style involves attacking with one sword over and over again.
I BEG TO DIFFER!5. Fist of the North Star, where Kenshiro's ATATATATA! is performed with a single fist.How many sources can we come up with where a martial arts type attacks multiple times with the same weapon.
1. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon: Single sword, definitely reaching an insane number of attacks.
2. Polearm and spear fighting in various movies from The Shaw Brothers. They are spear and polearm specialists who attack with supernatural speed.
3. Superkick fighting styles where a guy uses his strong leg to attack someone over and over again with the same leg.
4. Sword styles period: How many martial arts movies have you seen a monk use more than one sword? Usually a sword style involves attacking with one sword over and over again.
As previously linked. Clearly, he does it both ways.
Actually, I prefer the argument that the changes are unnecessary and do not account for how much they weaken further a class that already has problems being combat-effective.
To those of you saying "But in movie X, character Y attacks like a dozen times with a sword in six seconds! Monks should be able to do that too!"
An "attack" in Pathfinder, or any previous version of D&D, has never been about a single strike with a weapon. Or are you arguing that when two 1st level fighters face off, they alternate strikes every three seconds? So the number of attempted strikes a character performs in "reality" has nothing to do with the number of mechanical attacks he gets in the game.
Looking at the book, I realize that this particular language has vanished from Pathfinder (probably a casualty of the D&D-to-SRD conversion process), but the 3.5e PHB says "An attack roll represents your attempts to strike your opponent. It does not represent a single swing of the sword, for example. Rather, it indicates whether, over several attempts in the round, you managed to connect solidly."
That said, I still think Sean's statement on Flurry of Blows is bunk, but that particular argument won't fly.
That argument always falls on deaf ears. No one even considers that in movies there is on such thing as balance and making sure everything is fair. There isn't a dev alive that can (or should) be convinced to change an ability because you can point to a movie or cartoon character.
As far as the "clarification" it is obvious from the published material that exactly 2 people realized it worked this way SKR and Mr. Buhlman. My money is on it going back the way we all thought it should be.