Negative Levels and casting spells.

[MendedWall12]

I've heard two different interpretations of this from varying people, so I'd like to see how others are doing this.

Pertinent rules language--Energy Drain and Negative Levels

d20pfsrd.com-emphasis mine wrote:

Some spells and a number of undead creatures have the ability to drain away life and energy; this dreadful attack results in “negative levels.” These cause a character to take a number of penalties.

For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense, saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels. If a creature's negative levels equal or exceed its total Hit Dice, it dies.

So here are the two interpretations.

1. A caster that suffers a negative level that drops them below the required level to cast a spell, does not get to cast any spells from those higher level slots. This would be backed up by the language that says "level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting)." This is true IF the level-dependent variables include their "effective caster level." This interpretation would say that the spellcaster doesn't lose their prepared spells or slots so that if/when they benefit from something like restoration, they immediately have those spells available to cast again.

This is contrasted by:

2. A caster can still cast all of their spells because the language says they "do not lose any prepared spells or slots." So while I might only be level 3 "effectively" my ability to cast those spells that I've already prepared does not disappear. If this is the case, it creates some weirdness where I might cast a fireball but only be doing 3d6 damage because that is the "level dependent variable."

I'd be inclined, just on my own interpretation of the language, to go with the latter, but as I previously stated, I've seen it argued both ways. Which of the two do you find to be the RAI for this particular effect?

[TriOmegaZero]

Magic wrote:

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

If the negative levels would drop your caster level to less than the required CL for the spell you are casting, you cannot cast that spell. The spells are not lost, but cannot be cast.

This could make some spells uncastable while other spells of the same level remain castable due to abilities that treat CL as higher than normal for specific spells.

[Sangalor]

This is from the other thread, I'll just copy and paste it as asked :-)

I would say, after reading up on it a bit, that you have 2 scenarios if your caster level drops beneath the minimum caster level of your class:
- prepared casters: cast the *prepared* spell at the memorized caster level, 5d6 in the example of a 5th level wizard casting a fireball
- spontaneous casters: if you were a 6th level sorcerer and dropped to a caster level of 4, you cannot cast a fireball (or other 3rd+ level spells anymore). The reason is that the spell is created spontaneously and thus not already stored as with the prepared casters.

You can read the source for my findings here:

Spoiler:

A spell's power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she's using to cast the spell.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

In the event that a class feature or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt), but also to your caster level check to overcome your target's spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the Dc of the check).

Combine this with the rules in magic item creation where you also cannot go beneath the minimum level possible, and it's pretty clear. Finally, I would also ask the question: If it was possible to reduce the effect of a spell (which can be useful in some situations, e.g. to soften but not kill someone with a merciful fireball), then why can a fully healthy and unhampered character not do it, but a hurt and weakened one can? That would not make much sense then, thus my answer is as stated above :-)

[MendedWall12]

As I thought about this, I realized there might be another thing to consider. That is the rules for scrolls.

Specifically the part of the rule that says: "If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell's caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check."

At level three a wizard could cast a fireball spell off of a scroll if she met the prerequisite requirements. This is true because their caster is level three and so is the spell. This same wizard would not be able to prepare that spell because they do not yet have access to preparing that particular level of spell until level five.

To me this would definitely shore up the idea that a caster could still cast those spells as long as their level >= to the level of the spell. Which is, I believe, what TriOmegaZero is saying. If my caster is 5th level and had a fireball prepared, but was then dropped two levels from any negative level effect, he could still cast that fireball, because his level is = the spell level. If he got dropped one more level, that fireball would now be off limits. I would still have it prepared, and the slot remains, but my power to cast it has been taken away due to the negative effect.

[TriOmegaZero]

According to the scroll rules, the caster could make a caster level check to still cast the spell.

[MendedWall12]

Addendum and possible continuance of a debate, if there ever was one to begin with...

Also under scrolls it says: "If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell's caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll's caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a scroll mishap."

Which means that even though the caster's level is below the minimum requirement they are still able to attempt to successfully complete the spell with a d20+(Caster Level + Ability Modifier) to overcome the DC of the scroll (which seems pretty darn doable since the DC is the caster level of the scroll + 1).

To my mind this would mean that a caster suffering negative levels might just need to make the same kind of a check to successfully cast the spells they already have prepared/available. Especially since the spells didn't disappear, and neither did the spell slots.

I realize scrolls and spells are two different things, but for the purposes of this debate I find the rules very significant, because for all intents and purposes the scroll is just an already prepared spell (that somebody else prepared).

Edit: Ninja'd by TriO

[Sangalor]

Note that it says that the spell has to be equal to the spell's caster level. The spell's caster level for a fireball is 5 for a wizard, not three. You should not overlook that important word in there.

So no, you still cannot prepare or spontaneously cast fireball with too low caster levels. As I said before, a spell that was prepared while you were at full caster level still works at full caster level. In fact, you could keep it up by buying and using pearls of power of the appropriate level :-)

[MendedWall12]

Sangalor wrote:

Note that it says that the spell has to be equal to the spell's caster level. The spell's caster level for a fireball is 5 for a wizard, not three. You should not overlook that important word in there.

So no, you still cannot prepare or spontaneously cast fireball with too low caster levels. As I said before, a spell that was prepared while you were at full caster level still works at full caster level. In fact, you could keep it up by buying and using pearls of power of the appropriate level :-)

That is in fact a very important note, because it implicates that a caster must be of the appropriate level to have had access to the spell under normal circumstances.

Now I'd like, even more, for some others to weigh in on how they do this. Let's use the level 5 wizard example. If you're the GM and a level 5 wizard just acquired 1 negative level, dropping them to level 4, would you let them still cast that fireball they'd prepared? If so, would you make them make a caster level check? Would you just let them do it normally? Would you let them do it but make the DC one less, and the damage dice 4d6? Or would you not let them cast it at all?

What about a sorcerer?

[TriOmegaZero]

I would allow normal casting after a successful caster level check for both characters.

[Sangalor]

I would not require a caster level check for a prepared spell. When I look at the magic chapter I find:

Quote:

Spell Selection and Preparation

Until he prepares spells from his spellbook, the only spells a wizard has available to cast are the ones that he already had prepared from the previous day and has not yet used. During the study period, he chooses which spells to prepare. If a wizard already has spells prepared (from the previous day) that he has not cast, she can abandon some or all of them to make room for new spells.

When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, he can repeat the preparation process as often as he likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. He cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because he has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares more than one-quarter of his spells.

...
Prepared Spell Retention

Once a wizard prepares a spell, it remains in his mind as a nearly cast spell until he uses the prescribed components to complete and trigger it or until he abandons it. Certain other events, such as the effects of magic items or special attacks from monsters, can wipe a prepared spell from a character's mind.

So in the case of a prepared caster, the spells you have prepared previously but not yet used can be cast as you have prepared them. Actually the language here is a bit vague as to what exactly is determined when a spell is prepared. Obviously metamagic is in there. But what about your ability score: If you borrow a headband of intelligence from someone when preparing and then take it off, is the DC higher (because it was set when you prepared them) or is it something that is in the "nearly cast spell" area?

Anyway, back on topic, when you gain negative levels you keep your prepared spells. That implies for me that you keep them at that caster level that *you* prepared them with, so no check required.

A spontaneous caster is screwed here, however.

[MendedWall12]

I'm going to bump this and ask for some more discussion. I appreciate TriOmegaZero and Sangalor's interpretations and positions on this, but I'd like to get some more people's opinions. I'm more than likely going to have this coming up in a game this weekend, and I'm still going back and forth about how I'm going to handle it.

I'd also like to point out what seems like a possible discrepancy. As Sangalor noted under Prepared Spell Retention it says: "Certain other events such as ... special attacks from monsters can wipe a prepared spell from a character's mind." I wonder if that's a hold-over from the 3.5 negative levels, or are there other monster attacks that can remove prepared spells?

Please weigh in your two coppers.

[wraithstrike]

Here is my take on it.
If you get level drained any spells that are prepared but not cast or any slot you have not used as a spontaneous caster do not go away, but due to your decreased caster level you may not have access to them.

It was written that way so that if you can get the negative level removed before it is permanent of it the level or temporary such as from enervation that you don't lose spells you never used.

[MendedWall12]

wraithstrike wrote:

Here is my take on it.

If you get level drained any spells that are prepared but not cast or any slot you have not used as a spontaneous caster do not go away, but due to your decreased caster level you may not have access to them.

It was written that way so that if you can get the negative level removed before it is permanent of it the level or temporary such as from enervation that you don't lose spells you never used.

Thanks for weighing in Wraithstrike. This is the interpretation I've seen the most, but it really seems to me that if this is the truth of it that negative levels really nerf casters more than anyone else. A barbarian or fighter can suffer the -1 penalty and the loss of hitpoints and still be relatively sufficient. When you take away a caster's top level spells, you've really taken away their ability to be effective. This is even more true in a situation where the enemies have these types of powers; those high level spells are even more important. Obviously a caster will have to be much more careful about dealing with energy draining opponents if this is the case.

[wraithstrike]

They do nerf casters more, but not all things effect everyone equally. I also think my interpretation makes sense due to the lines about not losing the spell which I supported above.

I also explain the line "The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting).. "

I always keep restoration prepared. Due to the long casting time it may not be viable to cast in combat, but after combat getting your caster back to normal should be done.

Boosting your fort saves so the level does not become permanent is also a good countermeasure.

[cibet44]

wraithstrike wrote:

Here is my take on it.

If you get level drained any spells that are prepared but not cast or any slot you have not used as a spontaneous caster do not go away, but due to your decreased caster level you may not have access to them.

It was written that way so that if you can get the negative level removed before it is permanent of it the level or temporary such as from enervation that you don't lose spells you never used.

For me:

- Spell casters lose the ability to cast a prepared spell but not the slot (as above).
- Spell casters must make caster level checks for scrolls if their new CL is too low after applying the negative level
- I do not reduce the spell casters DCs since these are not caster level dependent
- I do not adjust the variables of any spells the wizard can cast (so Burning Hands would still do 5d4 for a 5th level wizard with 1 negative level). This may not be RAW but it's just easier for everyone at the table.
- Negative levels do not remove any class abilities or feats that require a certain level. Maybe not RAW but anything else is way too complicated for the table.
- I do not adjust the level dependent variables of any class abilities (like Rogue Sneak Attack). Again, maybe not RAW, but much easier to do at the table.

This may hurt spell casters more than the other classes but I figure the other classes are getting hit with negative levels way more often so I think it evens out.

[stringburka]

I use interpretation 1, but i think 2 might be RAI, due to how ability drain works (similar situation, if a wizards int is drained to 8 it can still cast spells due to a dev ruling a while ago)

[MendedWall12]

Thanks for your take Cibet, although, it makes my decision making process that much harder. Thanks for pointing out the DC shouldn't change; DC is 10 + the spell level + the relevant ability mod. I have to say, that I'm leaning towards RAW/RAI definitely being the caster loses those spells until they've been subject to Restoration. More opinions would definitely still be appreciated.

@stringburka: Do you possibly have a link to that Dev. ruling?

[cibet44]

One thing to keep in mind is that the way I apply negative levels seems to hurt clerics the most since they lose access to spells and take the melee and hit point reductions. Since clerics are often in melee combat it's a double whammy for them.

This to me is appropriate though considering most negative levels come from undead!

[MendedWall12]

Anyone else want to weigh in their two coppers on this?

[wabi-sabi]

The last post was last year, but this has been something that came up recently and I had to break it down for the player in my campaign. Since the thread was useful to me in my research and because MendedWall12 still requested anyone else's opinion on the matter I have decided to share what I figured out.

In the scenario the player in the campaign was a sorcerer who died due to receiving too many negative levels from an undead ghost. Through the complicated actions of party members and a bit of DM hand waving he was allowed to be reincarnated (which applies 2 permanent negative levels)... Basically he was given a grace removal of 2 negative levels so that he could roll against the negative levels he had gained and the new ones he was given due to reincarnation. He made a majority of these saves, but not all of them, and so he has a few negative levels that are "Permanent".

8th level Sorcerer, reincarnated from human to orc, negative levels drops him to effectively level 5.

He then asked me whether or not this meant that he lost spells known at higher level, and if he lost any feats (implied bloodline feat).
The short answers are Yes to both, which can be regained through restoration.

The long answer is as follows:
As a spontaneous caster if you are unable to cast the spell with your ability modifier then it is a moot point. [This is not the case, 18 (his caster level ability score even after reincarnation) is more than sufficient.]

As a spontaneous caster you have a %50 chance of losing unused spell slots upon being brought back to life after death. This is pointed out in the Reincarnation Spell Description.

This is the equivalent of feeling exhausted after a long battle. (Pew pew pew against death.)

This means that during the first 24 hrs after your completed reincarnation you are vulnerable.

Reincarnation states that:
"It [that which was reincarnated] retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged." However it then goes on to say that physical ability stats are changed, previous racial stats are removed, new ones are applied and if the results make a person unable to do xyz in their previous class then they should consider multi-classing...

So basically, normally you wouldn't lose a feat right? But if you had to have a certain requirement for it... You'd lose it.
Furthermore. In relation to the Negative Levels:

Feats typically are unaffected by death/revival unless something has changed a pre-requisite requirement for the feat. If you are not high enough level, lost a minimum stat/other requirement and so on then I'd say you lose access to the feat and if other feats are associated with it then your feat tree is broken. Or at least it would be fundamentally useless.

In an example, let's say that I needed 12 wisdom for a feat as a prerequisite but after reincarnation my stats were changed to a 10 wisdom. Then I don't get access to that feat in usage and anything associated with that feat is also useless because I don't have the pre-requisite for it.

In the case of a Sorcerer with a Bloodline Feat...
You are treated as lower level for level dependent variables Which means that you lose access to your Bloodline Feat at 7th level since you are treated as if you were lower due to the negative levels that have stuck.

Permanent Negative Levels in Pathfinder [unlike 3.5] is like "Permanent ___[spell]" In that Restoration can remove its effect similar to how dispel magic can remove a permanent effect [dispel magic will NOT remove a negative level].

This means that it isn't considered a 'True' level loss even if permanent even though it has all the hallmarks of a level loss.
penalties on everything except AC in relation to check rolls.
[Note that this does not talk about lost Ability POINTS, this talks about Ability CHECKS. The points LOST during a negative level incident is another thing entirely...]

Loss in Health.

Loss in level-dependent variables due to spell casting.

This does not apply to using something like a scroll for instance. The reasoning is that to use a scroll one must have a minimum ability amount (10 + spell level) followed by the use magic device check (20 + Caster Level Of the Spell On the Scroll). If you aren't using UMD but casting it as a caster that meets correct typing, class list and ability score... then it is a check DC of: Scroll's Caster Level + 1
Not your reduced level dependent casting ability.

So what does that reduced level dependent casting ability mean?

Your Effective Caster Level deals with:

Range
Duration
Damage dealt [in cases like 1d6 per caster level or 1d6 + 1 per caster level etc]
CL Check to overcome Target's Spell Resistance
CL Check in Dispelling Magic

In order to cast a spell you MUST have a CL High Enough for you to cast the spell. So if your Effective Level DROPS then You Can't Cast The Spell.

What it does NOT change Alone is your Spell's DC which is 10 + Spell Level + Ability Modifier = HOWEVER = Negative Levels gives you a penalty on Ability Score style Checks So that means that the penalty DOES stick your Spell DC's (As You Cast It).

As a spontaneous Caster this is a lot worse than for a prep-caster in the sense that a prep-caster can always refer back to their prep-sources or other sources and so always 'retain the knowledge of'.
In a sense the spontaneous caster 'temporarily loses' those spells known simply because they can not cast the spell in the first place. It is like they never had it. Once they regain their effective caster level then they can have access to those spells again.
Think of it like a very long lasting silence effect that shuts out higher level slots. The only cure is restoration.
------

Please note that the above is a unique situation which involved reincarnation; not just negative levels. Reincarnation resulted in ability score changes, racial changes, and %50 spell loss chance.
Furthermore I noticed that Sangalor mentioned reducing caster levels in the case of trying to mercy spell something to not kill it. Technically you can do that, and it says so under the description for Caster Level under Magic.

"You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level."

The above was rather critical for me coming to my conclusions.
I hope that this helps anyone else concerning Negative Levels.
Remember, Restoration is the Cure!

[wabi-sabi]

So what does all that mean for the Caster in the example…
He started with a 22 charisma score right? And he was Level 8.
22
-2 no longer human
20
-2 now Orc
18

In this example the Sorcerer has suffered 5 permanent negative levels (After saves, reincarnation etc etc).

Due To Negative Levels that drop effective character caster level 8 to 3 (5 Permanent Negative Levels) you have an 18 charisma score, and a - 5 Penalty on Ability Check Rolls.

I’m a little confused here myself, but it either means that you apply a flat -5 penalty on any ability check roll (which I do below), or you take the 18 total, subtract 5, which results in a 13 score which has a +1 modifier. Personally, I prefer the Penalty being separate and so did my math with that in mind.

Which means that whenever you make a Charisma based roll or cast a spell your effective ability score doesn't change, but your Ability Checks have a -5 penalty.

Let's say I had a spell with a DC.
18 charisma states that you have a +4 modifier to Charisma.

Casting spell DC is calculated as
10 + Spell Level + Ability Score Modifier

This is an Ability based Check so the -5 penalty is being applied.

If the spell were level 1 then...
10 + 1 + 4 - 5

So a level 1 spell would have a DC of 10 after penalties.

As an Effective 3rd Level Caster due to negative levels you can not cast a spell higher than level 1. If you were 5th level effective caster you could not cast a spell higher than level 2. (Sorcerer spells per day chart.)

If you were trying to do a skill check... such as Bluff.

Bluff as a class skill gives you +3
You have your ranks in bluff
And then your ability score [Which Gets a Penalty].

Ability Score + Class Skill Bonus + Ranks in Skill + Other [feats etc]

18 charisma means +4 ability score
class skill = +3 bonus
ranks in bluff... let's say at level 8 you had 8 ranks in this example.
But no additional feats, racial and so on that gave you bonuses.

Now Apply the Penalty from Negative Levels:
Ability Score - Ability Check Penalty + Class Skill Bonus + Ranks in Skill

4 – 5 + 3 + 8

The result is a 10.

What was a 15 is now a 10.

Hope this helps.

[Midnight_Angel]

Your post on this thread-necro is quite off-topic, but allow me to correct you on a couple of things...

a) Any Save DC for your spells is unaffected by negative levels you might have. After all, it's 10 + Stat Modifier + Spell Level. Your Caster Level, your Character Level or your Hit Dice are nowhere to be found within the equation.

Even if Negative Levels give you a penalty to ability-type checks, the DC of your spells is no check you are making. Setting the DC does not even involve a dice roll on your part.

b) Last time I checked, Reincarnation affected physical stats (Str, Dex and Con) only. Which makes the basics of your example wrong to begin with.

[Weirdo]

Well, since this thread has been revived:

stringburka wrote:

I use interpretation 1, but i think 2 might be RAI, due to how ability drain works (similar situation, if a wizards int is drained to 8 it can still cast spells due to a dev ruling a while ago)

MendedWall12 wrote:

@stringburka: Do you possibly have a link to that Dev. ruling?

Here we go.

Since ability damage can't cause a caster to lose access to high-level spells even if their score drops below the minimum requirement to cast those spells, negative levels shouldn't cause spellcasters to lose access to high-level spells.

Alternative reasoning: Ability to cast spells of a given level is not a level-dependent variable, it is a class feature granted at a specific level. Would a level-drained paladin lose access to mercies? A level-drained barbarian lose access to rage powers? A level-drained rogue lose access rogue tricks? I think it's clear that this is not currently the case. Thus spellcasters should not lose access to their spell slots.

"Level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting)" refers to the range, damage dice, number of targets, etc of the spell - any of the variables described within the spell that depend on level.

[AceSia]

Hello! This is my first post on the forums, and I would like to offer my 2-cents.

Looking from http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?438744-Pathfinder-Which-chapter-has-the -negative-level-rules with special focus on the Designer Notes :

Designer Notes: Lose a Level

Few things are more disruptive to a game session than losing a level, be it from a monster or being raised from the dead. In the 3.5 rules set, this means “un-building” your character, trying to undo all of the choices you made the last time you gained a level. There is no simple way to do this and you often end up permanently behind the curve of the rest of the party. To address this problem, we have taken the mechanics for a negative level, streamlined them a bit, and made them permanent in some cases. So, when you suffer an effect that would have caused you to lose a level, you instead take a permanent negative level. No more “un-building” your character and losing a bunch of abilities that allow you to keep up with the rest of the group. Now you just take some penalties until you get a restoration or similar spell cast on you. While this does take some of the bite out of losing a level, it speeds up play and lets you continue playing your character without a bunch of messy calculations.

I would read it as Negative Levels are meant to make it easier to de-level a character without having to physically go and change everything again. So, based on the above, if you are hit with a Negative Level, wouldn't that mean you are basically one level lower, in which case you would not have had access to that spell anyway (especially for spontaneous casters)

I think the Prepared Spell Slot is pretty clear, that you keep your Prepared Spell, and I would think that you can still Cast said Prepared Spell, however I would like to put forward the idea that you would not be able to Prepare said Spell anymore after that until you get rid of your Negative Level, or you level up normally (and therefore achieve the Caster Level required to prepare said spell).

Sorry for Necro-ing the thread, I was doing research on this for my group this weekend.