Abusing Leadership Feat


Advice

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Parka wrote:
Alienfreak wrote:

If you are so worried about CWI... every wizard can teleport and then build it.

You can even build it on the go with 2 hours per day. For free! Without getting to a save place! It just takes a while. But with done hastly you only need twice as long as you would if you werent out adventuring.

I'm not sure I'm understanding you.

Groups might not want to sit for another 4 hours each day waiting for the caster (who doesn't have to be a wizard, though it helps), on top of their 8 hours of rest they need and 1 hour of spell prep. And 4 hours of work while adventuring nets you 2 hours of progress, and the minimum possible for non-scroll, non-potion items is 4 hours per 1000 GP unless you are citing an ability I'm not familiar with when you say "done hastily." I assume you're referring to accelerating your work speed, which is why it's 4 hours per 1000 instead of 8. Those 4 hours of work also require a level surface and the same level of calm and lack of interruption as spell preparation, which can be pretty restrictive sometimes. A crafter goes from needing 9 hours of calm and peace in an adventuring day to 13 (or from 3 with a Ring of Sustenance back up to 7).

And it definitely isn't "free," which is why so many people are all over this specific example.

Quote:
If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night.

If you read this you know what I mean. 4 hours per day for free that count as 2 hours and with +5 DC we can up those gain to "real" 4 hours.

So if we make us a fancy +2 intelligence headband we have to work for 32 hours on it. With speeding it up we end up with 16 hours. Thats two dedicated days of work or four days out in the field.

And still from level 9 on every Wizard can just teleport somewhere to craft. Or at level 13 he can do it in the magnificent mansion. Its not like you can do alot against it if he wants to do it.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
The design have clarified that the person taking the feat or the level that grants a companion is the one who builds it. That's the intent.
Link or it didn't happen. :P

Yes, please. I'd like to be able to cite the devs in case I need to defend my positions on Leadership [which I like when it's used by intelligent, responsible players].


Alienfreak wrote:


4 hours per day for free that count as 2 hours and with +5 DC we can up those gain to "real" 4 hours.

So if we make us a fancy +2 intelligence headband we have to work for 32 hours on it. With speeding it up we end up with 16 hours. Thats two dedicated days of work or four days out in the field.

Shouldn't that be eight days in the field?


Ravingdork wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
The design have clarified that the person taking the feat or the level that grants a companion is the one who builds it. That's the intent.
Link or it didn't happen. :P

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz32dm?Leadership-Who-chooses#20

The Google is strong in me.


Axl wrote:
Alienfreak wrote:


4 hours per day for free that count as 2 hours and with +5 DC we can up those gain to "real" 4 hours.

So if we make us a fancy +2 intelligence headband we have to work for 32 hours on it. With speeding it up we end up with 16 hours. Thats two dedicated days of work or four days out in the field.

Shouldn't that be eight days in the field?

Yes yes... you are right ^^.

But the point is that since Pathfinder you don't need your quiet little library anymore. If you split up the magic item making in your group, maybe having CWI two times you will (at least in my experience) easily go along with it.
And also your buff b1tch Bard can take CWI, too. And he can also use it while in the field with you, buffing you and steadily building items.


Don't cohorts only have NPC wealth when they show up? Anything above that starting GP value has to come from the person playing the character with the feat, right? And that means it counts towards the player character's wealth-by-level.

A cohort is a signficant investment of time and funds. In exchange, you get a loyal companion (unless and until you abuse him to the point where he walks off--with the gear you gave him). As a DM, I always design the cohort. I do ask the player what he is looking for, but a craftsman wizard who stays in the shop isn't an option. Unless the cohort is meant to be a castellan to watch over the player's keep, they WILL be traveling with the party.

No extra crafting time, no flooding the city with half-price magic items, cohorts are adventurers that accept a subordinate posistion in order to learn from the character. In my game.

And followers? Unless the character in question has a keep or a tower or a manor house, he doesn't get them.

Master Arminas


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I'm not sure why having a crafting cohort is such a big deal and why everyone feels that this is game destructive.

The player has firstly lost a feat, for effectively a jack of all trades crafter, who is left at home.

But crafting feats only really start to get valuable when used in cooperation with other players, so that you can fit the pre-requisites, and remember with cooperation both people have to be there throughout the process, so your crafter is going to be severely restricted whilst the players are out adventuring.

Remember you always control the timing of the adventures, the players can't really expect to say "but I'm on downtime to craft" when the dragon starts attacking the city, or the murderer starts piling the bodies up etc.

The easiest way to restrict the crafter, is to have the party leave on an adventure just before he finishes a cooperatively created item, and quote the rules:

"A character can only work on one item at a time. If a character starts work on a new item, all materials used on the under construction item are wasted"

You are then left with a cohort who is either kicking his heels in the tavern at home, or is out with the party but who is a severely underpowered combat caster cos he used all his feats on crafting.

All in all the crafter cohort sounds good in theory, but is only useful when the players are in downtime as a convenient tool to assist getting the stuff that players would probably buy anyway, at a cheaper price (but you control the flow of treasure so this should easily be balanced) and more conveniently (so they don't have to go hunting down certain magic items! instead they have to spend their downtime crafting them instead....slight convenience, lots of character cooperation and team building, so balances out against the cost of the feat)

When the players are out, he is either stuck mid project, or is severely limited in what he can produce.

This is one of those occasions when you as a GM should loudly continue to moan about how the player and the party have got one up on you, and using this as an excuse to put them against more powerful creatures, whilst secretly laughing at the player who has effectively screwed himself out of a feat.


Alienfreak wrote:

If you read this you know what I mean. 4 hours per day for free that count as 2 hours and with +5 DC we can up those gain to "real" 4 hours.

So if we make us a fancy +2 intelligence headband we have to work for 32 hours on it. With speeding it up we end up with 16 hours. Thats two dedicated days of work or four days out in the field.

And still from level 9 on every Wizard can just teleport somewhere to craft. Or at level 13 he can do it in the magnificent mansion. Its not like you can do alot against it if he wants to do it.

PRD wrote:
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night. If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks. This work is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster).

So if they teleport somewhere to craft in one dedicated block, they're working at double speed. The items they want at level 9 are not the +2 headbands anymore, though, so the time still adds up, and they are doing it in one continuous block instead of broken up over an adventuring day. This also means that they are down 2 Teleports every crafting day, the party can't move far from the teleport location without reliably telling the crafter where they went, and there are 4 hours where the caster simply isn't there. Maginificent Mansion is definitely the better option. Or a Cohort.

If they are working on-the-fly, they work at half speed (x2 for acceleration, 1/2 for adventuring non-continuous work, 1/2 for distracting or dangerous environment) and have a higher check to meet to make the item.

OR you could shunt off the work to a -2 level cohort, who meets a lower DC working twice as fast as you, or the same DC working four times faster than you, and can help you in an absolute pinch (if poorly). They can signal you that the item is done (perhaps via Sending, or you could Scry them occasionally), and you can spend your 2 Teleports only once to pick up the item and drop off new materials and orders instead of every crafting day. You get magic items either way, and can possibly help each other for difficult ones. But in one version, you took Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, and Leadership instead of Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and Forge Ring.


peterrco wrote:

I'm not sure why having a crafting cohort is such a big deal and why everyone feels that this is game destructive.

The player has firstly lost a feat, for effectively a jack of all trades crafter, who is left at home.

But crafting feats only really start to get valuable when used in cooperation with other players, so that you can fit the pre-requisites, and remember with cooperation both people have to be there throughout the process, so your crafter is going to be severely restricted whilst the players are out adventuring.

Remember you always control the timing of the adventures, the players can't really expect to say "but I'm on downtime to craft" when the dragon starts attacking the city, or the murderer starts piling the bodies up etc.

The easiest way to restrict the crafter, is to have the party leave on an adventure just before he finishes a cooperatively created item, and quote the rules:

"A character can only work on one item at a time. If a character starts work on a new item, all materials used on the under construction item are wasted"

You are then left with a cohort who is either kicking his heels in the tavern at home, or is out with the party but who is a severely underpowered combat caster cos he used all his feats on crafting.

All in all the crafter cohort sounds good in theory, but is only useful when the players are in downtime as a convenient tool to assist getting the stuff that players would probably buy anyway, at a cheaper price (but you control the flow of treasure so this should easily be balanced) and more conveniently (so they don't have to go hunting down certain magic items! instead they have to spend their downtime crafting them instead....slight convenience, lots of character cooperation and team building, so balances out against the cost of the feat)

When the players are out, he is either stuck mid project, or is severely limited in what he can produce.

This is one of those occasions when you as a GM should loudly continue to moan about how the player...

No you see it wrong.

Clearly a Barbarian with a Gnome Evangelist Cleric (Restoration Domain) is a lot worse than someone crafting items.
I mean the Barbarian now can only rage cycle, has a free heal each round and gets inspire courage all day.

The Gnome can happily ride on him in his backpack with a fullplate & tower shield which brings him up to 25 alone. And he still has a d8 HPs and +2 racial bonus on Con.
If you give him +1 shield&armor (or he does via magic vestment) and maybe a +1 protection ring and a +1 amulet of natural armor later he can go with dodge. We are allready breaking the 30 AC barrier with a not bad HP having guy that has any cure spell empowered from level 6 on.


Parka wrote:
Alienfreak wrote:

If you read this you know what I mean. 4 hours per day for free that count as 2 hours and with +5 DC we can up those gain to "real" 4 hours.

So if we make us a fancy +2 intelligence headband we have to work for 32 hours on it. With speeding it up we end up with 16 hours. Thats two dedicated days of work or four days out in the field.

And still from level 9 on every Wizard can just teleport somewhere to craft. Or at level 13 he can do it in the magnificent mansion. Its not like you can do alot against it if he wants to do it.

PRD wrote:
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night. If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks. This work is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster).

So if they teleport somewhere to craft in one dedicated block, they're working at double speed. The items they want at level 9 are not the +2 headbands anymore, though, so the time still adds up, and they are doing it in one continuous block instead of broken up over an adventuring day. This also means that they are down 2 Teleports every crafting day, the party can't move far from the teleport location without reliably telling the crafter where they went, and there are 4 hours where the caster simply isn't there. Maginificent Mansion is definitely the better option. Or a Cohort.

If they are working on-the-fly, they work...

Did you even read the part I highlighted?

If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night.

If he is adventuring it is like this. If he is dedicating time for crafting items your part comes into play. Not rocket science.

Also why would a wizard teleport away and back each day? Did I miss something?


http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz32dm?Leadership-Who-chooses#20

Here you go RD. Found via searching SKR's posts for leadership.


As for the original problem -

I can see where you are coming from with this, but remember, like everyone said, they still have minds of their own.

Start by trying to resolve it in game. Have the cohort send him a message or some such by magical means, or simply travel out and find him if not possible. Have him voice concerns about lack of personal training (one-on-one time with his "lord"), and that he wanted to go out and see the world, like he does. Another point to make (Out of Character) is that he will never earn a point of experience sitting on his ass making items all day. If nothing happens, the Cohort leaves him.

If this doesn't work, or if you prefer, sit with the player and talk about his cohort - ambitions, desires, and goals. He has a personality and life too, and he doesn't want to spend it making items all day. Most players will see where you are coming from and compromise with you.


TheRedArmy wrote:

As for the original problem -

I can see where you are coming from with this, but remember, like everyone said, they still have minds of their own.

Start by trying to resolve it in game. Have the cohort send him a message or some such by magical means, or simply travel out and find him if not possible. Have him voice concerns about lack of personal training (one-on-one time with his "lord"), and that he wanted to go out and see the world, like he does. Another point to make (Out of Character) is that he will never earn a point of experience sitting on his ass making items all day. If nothing happens, the Cohort leaves him.

If this doesn't work, or if you prefer, sit with the player and talk about his cohort - ambitions, desires, and goals. He has a personality and life too, and he doesn't want to spend it making items all day. Most players will see where you are coming from and compromise with you.

The worst about that subpar tactic is, as you point out, that he will never earn any XP.

I mean he is a free combatant that doesn't take away any loot or XP from anybody but still levels up.
And nothing is more powerful in D&D than levels. At level 13 a 5th level cohort that struggles to make even the most basic items you need at that level is no match for a lvl 11 cohort that travels with you and makes some items on the go.


Alienfreak wrote:
Also why would a wizard teleport away and back each day? Did I miss something?

I was responding to these.

Alienfreak wrote:
If you are so worried about CWI... every wizard can teleport and then build it.
Alienfreak wrote:
And still from level 9 on every Wizard can just teleport somewhere to craft.

So that would be why I started including the teleporting.

Alienfreak wrote:

Did you even read the part I highlighted?

If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night.

Yes. I was trying to point out that the rest of the paragraph too. You can "accelerate crafting" to bring it back up to 4 hours for item creation time limits. Then the time is halved once more for it being in a "dangerous and distracting" environment, so you are back to 2 hours a day after taking the +5 to DCs.

You avoid this by leaving for a not-so-dangerous environment (i.e. Teleporting or a sheltering spell), but then you have to craft while the spell is active or while you are in the safe place. That means you are one again crafting in a continuous period- taking extra time out of an adventuring day- or you are casting spells during every one of those little breaks.

That was all. I was trying to help you understand why people would be up in arms about magic item crafting being made so much easier by a cohort elsewhere. Evidently Wealth by Level bothers you less than backup, though, so it doesn't matter.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cheapy wrote:

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz32dm?Leadership-Who-chooses#20

Here you go RD. Found via searching SKR's posts for leadership.

Well, in the case, I will be with the player through every step of the NPC's creation. Players tend to make a lot of mistakes that end up being overly favorable to themselves, after all.


Ravingdork wrote:
Cheapy wrote:

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz32dm?Leadership-Who-chooses#20

Here you go RD. Found via searching SKR's posts for leadership.

Well, in the case, I will be with the player through every step of the NPC's creation. Players tend to make a lot of mistakes that end up being overly favorable to themselves, after all.

You know us players. If we just happen to take an "unpricable" artifact as "free", can you really blame us? :-)


Wow, was not expecting the response I got, thanks guys, I have two pages of posts I can bring to said player and show him that he's abusing this feat something fierce.

Where in the rules does it say that the GM gets to make the NPC cohort...because this will come up. I guarantee that it will get argued that its the whole "Its my feat, therefore I get to create the NPC, you have no say over it. Its like you telling me how to make my character." I just need rules to back my argument.

I have another player who took leadership and uses her cohort for intelligence gathering only and is rarely in play, so I don't want to ban leadership outright.

Scarab Sages

Renvale987 wrote:
Where in the rules does it say that the GM gets to make the NPC cohort...because this will come up. I guarantee that it will get argued that its the whole "Its my feat, therefore I get to create the NPC, you have no say over it. Its like you telling me how to make my character." I just need rules to back my argument.

Rule 0. If the player wants to take the feat, he has to agree to whatever rules the GM allows it under. It is a really really good feat if left completely up to the player. On the other hand, if you want any player to want to ever take the feat, you have to work out a compromise where both of you are happy with the results. I would suggest some sort of compromise on the actual crunch, while reserving the personality, backstory, etc of the NPC for yourself as GM.

Don't rely completely on a citation from a book to run your game or the rules lawyers in your group will end up running your world for you :)


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And you shouldn't. It's a wonderful feat, full of excellent roleplaying opportunities. But there should be guidelines, and that's fine. Stipulating what you need to in order to keep things balanced, that's fine.

Cohorts must travel with the party at most, if not all, times.
Cohorts must have a legitimate reason to want to follow their leaders. A wizard need a good reason to follow a sorcerer. Sorcerer can't loan his apprentice a spellbook after all.

Ideas like these that give broad expectations but allow you to limit things that might be overpowered will result in happy times for you and your players. And as always, you have the final call.

Sovereign Court

@Renvale987: I'd be interested to know how this plays out, let us know. Also, like so many have said, avoid making this into a "I was right you were wrong" thing. Try and use this as an opportunity to build a strong group dynamic so that you can work with the player more easily in the future.

For bonus points, read up about "social contract", the best article of which is here:
http://www.treasuretables.org/2006/06/social-contracts-for-rpg-groups


Parka wrote:
Alienfreak wrote:
Also why would a wizard teleport away and back each day? Did I miss something?

I was responding to these.

Alienfreak wrote:
If you are so worried about CWI... every wizard can teleport and then build it.
Alienfreak wrote:
And still from level 9 on every Wizard can just teleport somewhere to craft.

So that would be why I started including the teleporting.

Alienfreak wrote:

Did you even read the part I highlighted?

If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night.

Yes. I was trying to point out that the rest of the paragraph too. You can "accelerate crafting" to bring it back up to 4 hours for item creation time limits. Then the time is halved once more for it being in a "dangerous and distracting" environment, so you are back to 2 hours a day after taking the +5 to DCs.

You avoid this by leaving for a not-so-dangerous environment (i.e. Teleporting or a sheltering spell), but then you have to craft while the spell is active or while you are in the safe place. That means you are one again crafting in a continuous period- taking extra time out of an adventuring day- or you are casting spells during every one of those little breaks.

That was all. I was trying to help you understand why people would be up in arms about magic item crafting being made so much easier by a cohort elsewhere. Evidently Wealth by Level bothers you less than backup, though, so it doesn't matter.

*sigh* You still didn't get the meaning of the rules text. It is seriously no rocket science:

If you are out traveling you can work for 4 hours for free on items. But this only counts as two hours. If you combine it with the +5DC it counts as virtual 4 hours a day.
No more halfing anything out of some rules text that DO NOT APPLY HERE!!!!11111111111!!!!1111

Hopefully you now understood that two case rule text.

1st case traveling)
4 hours that count as 2 hours during spare time

2nd case dedicated crafting)
Up to 8 hours a day that must be taken in 4 hour blocks and if in distracting enviroment the time only counts half

.
.
.

And if the Wizard needs an valuable item he can just teleport somewhere safe (a random location usually is safe if noone knows you went there and noone will know) and craft it there. If you have a cohort you can go with cooperative itemcrafting and with the +5DC you can now create up to 4k market price per day. So if the Wizard has a downtime of a week 28k (unless you count with a 10 day week then its 40k).
So a level 20 wizard would need 220 days to recraft his whole equipment.


Renvale987 wrote:

Wow, was not expecting the response I got, thanks guys, I have two pages of posts I can bring to said player and show him that he's abusing this feat something fierce.

Where in the rules does it say that the GM gets to make the NPC cohort...because this will come up. I guarantee that it will get argued that its the whole "Its my feat, therefore I get to create the NPC, you have no say over it. Its like you telling me how to make my character." I just need rules to back my argument.

I have another player who took leadership and uses her cohort for intelligence gathering only and is rarely in play, so I don't want to ban leadership outright.

Sean K Reynolds says you are wrong.

The PC takes the feat the PC makes the NPC.

Of course this NPC needs your approval and I would highly encourage to talk with the player if you do not like that NPC.
But still a itemcrafter that sits at home all day is the weakest cohort possible. So you should be thankful that he screws up his powerhouse himself.


The level of the cohort is governed by what it started as and how much XP it gained through adventuring, it does not scale to my knowledge to a growing leadership score.

So your NPC wizard who is sitting back making shinys is not growing with the rest of the party.

In addition it needs to make a check to craft magic items, dc of item caster level +5 +5 for every non feat prerequisite it does not qualify for. If the item crafter fails the check then he passes a cursed item on to his boss.


rat_ bastard wrote:

The level of the cohort is governed by what it started as and how much XP it gained through adventuring, it does not scale to my knowledge to a growing leadership score.

So your NPC wizard who is sitting back making shinys is not growing with the rest of the party.

In addition it needs to make a check to craft magic items, dc of item caster level +5 +5 for every non feat prerequisite it does not qualify for. If the item crafter fails the check then he passes a cursed item on to his boss.

If he is with the party and thus assigned XP then the formular is:

His level divided by Your Level.
So if he is 5th level and you are 7th and you get 7k XP for the encounter he would get 5k.

But remember: THIS CAN NEVER BRING HIM HIGHER THAN YOUR LEVEL -2!!! If it would he simply stops 1XP before the next level.
Also your leadership score stops being relevant here. Its only used when attracting cohorts. So if you are level 10 and only have the score to attract a level 2 follower it can very easily end up that he is level 8 after a few good encounters you have. Even if you can't attract a level 8 follower he will still be your follower once he is level 8.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Alienfreak wrote:
Sean K Reynolds says you are wrong.

Sean K never said anything of the sort. He is a kind gentleman who knows better than to make a habit of spuriously telling people they are wrong.

He and the other developers simply give their opinions, thoughts, house rules, and official FAQ and errata.

They do not generally tell people they are "wrong." That's bad form, would limit a supposedly limitless game, and may cost them business.


Ravingdork wrote:
Alienfreak wrote:
Sean K Reynolds says you are wrong.

Sean K never said anything of the sort. He is a kind gentleman who knows better than to make a habit of spuriously telling people they are wrong.

He and the other developers simply give their opinions, thoughts, house rules, and official FAQ and errata.

They do not generally tell people they are "wrong." That's bad form, would limit a supposedly limitless game, and may cost them business.

You mean the really old lazy diplomatic "DM will fix it approach"? Yeah.

But unless you can prove him wrong with that the effects of a class feature or feat are chosen by the player you are wrong.
Or do you seriously argue that a player cannot choose the feats of his AC or the weapon of his Weapon Focus?


Ok Alienfreak, you obviously don't think it is a problem and you feel it is ok for the player to have complete control of the cohort. That is fine for your game.

Several of us (including the OP) feel it can cause problems and is not acceptable for our games.

The OP asked for assistance/advice with an issue that is causing a problem in his game. We offered him our advice. There is no need to get offended or be offensive on either side.


For what it's worth, I disagree with Sean K Reynolds' opinion on this matter.

I believe that a player should collaborate with the GM in the design of a cohort, to ensure that the cohort fits well with the leader and the rest of the group, has meaningful impact on the roleplay, and doesn't imbalance the party.

The best players would design a rough draft and submit it to the GM for comments. The GM should provide constructive criticism and the draft would be modified accordingly. The result will be a cohort who adds to everyone's enjoyment of the game.


Alienfreak wrote:
Renvale987 wrote:

Wow, was not expecting the response I got, thanks guys, I have two pages of posts I can bring to said player and show him that he's abusing this feat something fierce.

Where in the rules does it say that the GM gets to make the NPC cohort...because this will come up. I guarantee that it will get argued that its the whole "Its my feat, therefore I get to create the NPC, you have no say over it. Its like you telling me how to make my character." I just need rules to back my argument.

I have another player who took leadership and uses her cohort for intelligence gathering only and is rarely in play, so I don't want to ban leadership outright.

Sean K Reynolds says you are wrong.

The PC takes the feat the PC makes the NPC.

Of course this NPC needs your approval and I would highly encourage to talk with the player if you do not like that NPC.
But still a itemcrafter that sits at home all day is the weakest cohort possible. So you should be thankful that he screws up his powerhouse himself.

SKR isn't a player or the GM at that table so his opinion really shouldn't carry much weight anyway. SKR knows his stuff but he doesn't know what's happening at our game tables.

There is nothing in the books that states who gets to create the cohort. The way I do it is that I let the player tell me what they are looking for then we sit down together and work it out. However, the NPC is probably going to have a standard array. Also the NPC will have it's own personality. That means that sometimes he may have something else he's working on. If the player wants the cohort to be a magic item factory, it's going to have to be better pay than breaking even. This would fall under the category of not treating your followers well.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Neo2151 wrote:
Most people who ban the Leadership feat seem to forget that it's a heavy roleplay feat. The player can design the cohort however they want, but it's the GM's toy to roleplay with. While the cohort should always be working to help the leader, that doesn't mean they're just a tool; they're a person/creature with their own wants and needs as well.

I ban the leadership because I allow my players to recruit allies through roleplay when the situation is appropriate. The thing is they remain NPC's under my contstruction and control and the players don't get to find out any more of their abilities than their characters can legitimately discover.


Alienfreak wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Alienfreak wrote:
Sean K Reynolds says you are wrong.

Sean K never said anything of the sort. He is a kind gentleman who knows better than to make a habit of spuriously telling people they are wrong.

He and the other developers simply give their opinions, thoughts, house rules, and official FAQ and errata.

They do not generally tell people they are "wrong." That's bad form, would limit a supposedly limitless game, and may cost them business.

You mean the really old lazy diplomatic "DM will fix it approach"? Yeah.

But unless you can prove him wrong with that the effects of a class feature or feat are chosen by the player you are wrong.
Or do you seriously argue that a player cannot choose the feats of his AC or the weapon of his Weapon Focus?

That's not the same thing. One is purely a mechanical benefit the other is a complete creature with a mind of its own who has actually chosen to follow the PC. There isn't anything that suggests that the PC should be able to create and control the NPC. It can easily be read as "you attract an NPC that already exists in the game to be a loyal follower."

This is also why I suggested using the SSG's Bullet Points: Leadership. It addresses the problems the OP is having while still giving the players what they want.

Liberty's Edge

It has already been said but it bears repeating.

The Devs have weighed in on how they envisioned leadership, but left it open so you can do other things with it in your home game if you want to.

It doesn't need to be broken, and it won't be broken, if the GM doesn't let it be broken.

The most important line

"there are brakes in the game to keep some things from getting out of control, and if the GM doesn't use those brakes, it's his fault."


Ravingdork wrote:
Well, in the case, I will be with the player through every step of the NPC's creation. Players tend to make a lot of mistakes that end up being overly favorable to themselves, after all.

And it's still an NPC. The player should get to design the cohort's stats, personality, and objectives, all with the GM's guidance, and after that has been done the GM is the one that runs the NPC.

An NPC that spends all his time slaving away to make cheap magical items for the PC isn't realistic. What are his motivations and goals? His background? Why is he following the PC? All these things will have an impact on how the cohort behaves, and it falls to the GM to determine how.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Alienfreak wrote:

But unless you can prove him wrong with that the effects of a class feature or feat are chosen by the player you are wrong.

Or do you seriously argue that a player cannot choose the feats of his AC or the weapon of his Weapon Focus?

I think you are missing the point of my post.


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I have allowed players to design their cohorts and, if I'm the one designing them, I'll take their requests into account. But the rules do say that cohorts are generally NPCs and NPCs are designed and controlled by the GM. That gives GMs the power to rein in any abuses a player tries to squeeze out of his or her cohort.

I do allow my players to use a cohort with item crafting feats (hell, their main crafting NPC is a mystic theurge to boot). It's really not much skin off my nose at all since they're still limited by time and money in their crafting. Plus, crafting feats mainly serve to turn magic items distributed by me, the GM, into similarly valued magic items of the players' desires. As far as I'm concerned, that's a pretty even trade.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Alienfreak wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Alienfreak wrote:
Sean K Reynolds says you are wrong.

Sean K never said anything of the sort. He is a kind gentleman who knows better than to make a habit of spuriously telling people they are wrong.

He and the other developers simply give their opinions, thoughts, house rules, and official FAQ and errata.

They do not generally tell people they are "wrong." That's bad form, would limit a supposedly limitless game, and may cost them business.

You mean the really old lazy diplomatic "DM will fix it approach"? Yeah.

But unless you can prove him wrong with that the effects of a class feature or feat are chosen by the player you are wrong.
Or do you seriously argue that a player cannot choose the feats of his AC or the weapon of his Weapon Focus?

That's not the same thing. One is purely a mechanical benefit the other is a complete creature with a mind of its own who has actually chosen to follow the PC. There isn't anything that suggests that the PC should be able to create and control the NPC. It can easily be read as "you attract an NPC that already exists in the game to be a loyal follower."

This is also why I suggested using the SSG's Bullet Points: Leadership. It addresses the problems the OP is having while still giving the players what they want.

So a Animal Companion or (Improved) Familiar is not a creature with a mind of its own?

Both an Cohort as an AC or Familiar are pure mechanical benefits.


peterrco wrote:

Your lucky he's only trying to make use of the "cohort" side of the leadership feat.

You can do an awful lot with followers who are created as one shot ponies to be very good at one thing and one thing only, who are then left back at base to get on with the job.

1. Alchemist: Can make potions at first level and supply the party with alchemical items.

2. Bard: Intelligence build bards for all those knowledge checks. A charisma Bard skill focused and traited, for perform string instruments, with a few skill points in knowledge engineering and profession architect, combined with Lyre a building is one man construction crew who would be able to play all day for hundreds of man hours of work once per week.

3. Animal trainer: Do the players really ever have time to do this themselves? A specialised animal trainer can do it for them

There are loads of ways in which the intelligent/optimising/abusive player can maximise the use of support staff followers.

Bard levels=cohort, not follower


As far as cohorts having to travel/adventure, well... while naturally it's up to the GM, one of my main reasons for selecting Leadership is to have a reasonably powerful, reliable guardian for whatever sort of base of operations I have (tower, cave complex, ship-of-the-line, etc.)

Even @ -2 level, having someone several cuts above mere followers (yeah, they'll try, but 1st level Warriors just aren't equipped to deal with fortress-threatening, well, um, threats) is a good thing; one I happily spend a feat on.


A senchal to be you second in command? that is a bit different of a situation. I can easily imagine someone wanting to become a cohort to fill that position.
You need to be careful though. By raw; if he never adventures, he never gains xps, he never gains levels, and he won't be up to stopping (or even slowing down) your eventual enemies.

Liberty's Edge

Renvale987 wrote:

Okay, so here is my situation. I have a player who took the Leadership feat. After doing so, he made a cohort, who was a wizard with every single item creation feat. After doing so, they put her to work making them item after item after item for half price.

I believe this to be a broken use of Leadership.

The way I understand Leadership is that your cohort is an ally, who helps you when/if they can, but they are not mindless robots that are slaves to your will. They can willfully refuse to do something if it conflicts with their interests or they simply don't have the time due to personal commitments.

I have a problem with a player taking a single feat and then having access to 6-7 feats ALL THE TIME afterwards. This is wrong to me. She has no other feats then item creation and all her skill points are put into crafting skills.

What do you guys think? Am I wrong or is this clearly an abuse of a feat?

When players believe they are smart by exploiting what they believe is a weakness in the RAW, I really enjoy showing them how much smarter I am.

In this case, it is quite easy. Give the PC his cohort and let him craft the magic items that the party wants. You will then count these items at full value against their WBL and adjust the loot they receive accordingly.

Thus the only real value of the feat is that they can get the magic items they really want, which is not so bad for a feat but does not really make it broken.

Of course, you can still take advantage of the fact that they now have a dependent NPC who can be kidnapped, killed, ransomed, corrupted and so on. You can also have him be a really obnoxious jerk with outrageous demands for his wages, quarters, laboratories, whatever.

Better than refusing something to a player, it is much more satisfying to make him regret ever wishing for it.


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makes a note to avoid spiteful GMs at all costs. especially when they purposefully ignore RAI to spite their players


Renvale987 wrote:
Okay, so here is my situation. I have a player who took the Leadership feat. After doing so, he made a cohort, who was a wizard with every single item creation feat. After doing so, they put her to work making them item after item after item for half price.

In this example, the cohort is being used as a party tool, not the loyal companion of one party member.

Renvale987 wrote:
I believe this to be a broken use of Leadership.

It is indeed not how Leadership should be used. The Wizard cohort might give preferential pricing to his master, but Master's friends pay full-price. That's just plain having a sense of self-worth, which a cohort (or anyone, really) should have.

Renvale987 wrote:
The way I understand Leadership is that your cohort is an ally, who helps you when/if they can, but they are not mindless robots that are slaves to your will.

Exactly. They're not party "property", they're not the 5th Groover, they're your ally.

Renvale987 wrote:
I have a problem with a player taking a single feat and then having access to 6-7 feats ALL THE TIME afterwards. This is wrong to me. She has no other feats then item creation and all her skill points are put into crafting skills.

Kill the cohort, it's that simple. And don't let the player insist that the party has to pay to raise the guy. Make him do that with his cut of the loot. The cohort is not a full party member, he should never receive a cut of any treasure whatsoever. All cohort loot should come out of the master's cut.


Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:

A senchal to be you second in command? that is a bit different of a situation. I can easily imagine someone wanting to become a cohort to fill that position.

You need to be careful though. By raw; if he never adventures, he never gains xps, he never gains levels, and he won't be up to stopping (or even slowing down) your eventual enemies.

True... though I tend to put off taking Leadership until well after the 7th level threshold, so it isn't too problematic for me. If you take it right away, you would need to run your cohort around a bit now and then to keep him/her competitive. Preferably while leaving a high-end outsider behind to overwatch the keep. (Go-go-gadget-Planar-Ally!)


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loaba wrote:
Renvale987 wrote:
Okay, so here is my situation. I have a player who took the Leadership feat. After doing so, he made a cohort, who was a wizard with every single item creation feat. After doing so, they put her to work making them item after item after item for half price.

In this example, the cohort is being used as a party tool, not the loyal companion of one party member.

Renvale987 wrote:
I believe this to be a broken use of Leadership.

It is indeed not how Leadership should be used. The Wizard cohort might give preferential pricing to his master, but Master's friends pay full-price. That's just plain having a sense of self-worth, which a cohort (or anyone, really) should have.

Renvale987 wrote:
I have a problem with a player taking a single feat and then having access to 6-7 feats ALL THE TIME afterwards. This is wrong to me. She has no other feats then item creation and all her skill points are put into crafting skills.
Kill the cohort, it's that simple. And don't let the player insist that the party has to pay to raise the guy. Make him do that with his cut of the loot. The cohort is not a full party member, he should never receive a cut of any treasure whatsoever. All cohort loot should come out of the master's cut.

So I don't give my party member's Cohort or Animal Companion items at the price I craft them as the party's Wizard. Why? Otherwise I would be a tool and have no self worth.

Best argument ever.

So the DM just meta games and kills the cohort without anybody being to influence it and feels COOL afterwards because he is so mighty?

Srsly. Either don't allow Leadership at all or play it like it was meant to be.
Don't always turn around a thing the Player likes with your Hardwursten into a device to torture the player and steal his fun. Like killing his cohort all the time on purpose and wasting his items. Or like turning the cohort into the tool of the BBEG that sells him out. Seriosuly. ITS HIS FREAKING COHORT.

You guys are really some spiteful DMs loving their might and loving to crush the fun your players could probably have. Well done. Go on Hardwursten.

The black raven wrote:

When players believe they are smart by exploiting what they believe is a weakness in the RAW, I really enjoy showing them how much smarter I am.

In this case, it is quite easy. Give the PC his cohort and let him craft the magic items that the party wants. You will then count these items at full value against their WBL and adjust the loot they receive accordingly.

Thus the only real value of the feat is that they can get the magic items they really want, which is not so bad for a feat but does not really make it broken.

Of course, you can still take advantage of the fact that they now have a dependent NPC who can be kidnapped, killed, ransomed, corrupted and so on. You can also have him be a really obnoxious jerk with outrageous demands for his wages, quarters, laboratories, whatever.

Better than refusing something to a player, it is much more satisfying to make him regret ever wishing for it.

You Sir are really smarter than anybody I ever met and smarter than I could ever be. This solution is that cunning. I am left speechless.

Crafting Magic Items never allows anyone to increase their character wealth noticably above what they should have in our groups.
Also cohorts NEVER want wages.

And invoking rule 0 to screw around with player's is not smartness but you being the DM. Anybody can be the DM and so ANYTHING in his world.


The black raven wrote:
In this case, it is quite easy. Give the PC his cohort and let him craft the magic items that the party wants. You will then count these items at full value against their WBL and adjust the loot they receive accordingly.

This sounds like the best course of action in the given situation. The player isn't really being penalized, nor does it deviate from the design elements that the game is built upon. In fact, there are several sources that advise GMs to adjust loot if the party's WBL is increasing too far beyond the baseline.


Actually-I may be wrong- but I seem to remember there's a section added in the Core Rulebook about the Leadership feat. I'm paraphrasing because I have a lapful of cat and not book, but I seem to recall it stating that Leadership is a very touchy feat and you should talk to your DM first before taking it.

That should be all the justification you need, since technically it could be interpreted as "you can't take this feat without DM approval".

As I said, I don't have the book in front of me, but I seem to remember there being such an addendum in the book itself.

*negotiates with cat to be permitted to go upstairs and look it up*

edit1:Nope, not there. Probably should be though. Still looking to see where I may have seen it.

edit2: it's in the 3.5 PHB. My bad, we use 3.5 as backup source material for PF here, so we carry over a lot.

Though I don't understand why the cautionary wasn't included. It seems (especially in cases like this) to be rather pertinent.


Leadership abused? Leadership is never abused unless someone plays a chain of command. So my character has leadership, his cohort has leadership, his cohort has leadership, his cohort..and so on. Most fun characters I've ever played.


dkonen, I dusted off my 3.5 Dungeonmaster's Guide to see if it was there.

The 3.5 DMG states "Unlike other feats, this one depends heavily on the social setting of the campaign, the actual location of the PC, and the group dynamics. You're free to disallow this feat if it would disrupt the campaign."

The text continues "A character can try to attract a cohort of a particular race, class, and alignment.... The DM determines the details of the cohort."

The 3.5 feat contradicts SKR's opinion.

In my opinion, the 3.5 wording is superior to PF & SKR on this matter.


H.P. Makelovecraft wrote:
Leadership abused? Leadership is never abused unless someone plays a chain of command. So my character has leadership, his cohort has leadership, his cohort has leadership, his cohort..and so on. Most fun characters I've ever played.

Make sure you and your cohorts are all summoners and have your eidolons take leadership.


To H.P.M. and Umbral Reaver: that's what I meant by "pyramid scheme".

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