Argh! Picking up item in threatened square


Rules Questions

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slade867 wrote:
Hey guys here's a question. When someone disarms you, can you use your move action to pick up the weapon again assuming no one else beats you to it?

Yes. If the enemy who disarmed you, or any other enemy still threatens your square on your turn, they each get an attack of opportunity on you.


I'll say it again this may not be cut and dry but it seems fairly simple enough that in my home games its going like this and i find to to be the simplest and cleanest understanding I come to as a GM

1. I would say yes you can pick up items that are in squares within your reach i would also allow some manipulation into those squares.(the manipulation comes from the fact that if you cannot manipulate items from outside your square rogues must always set off traps that trigger off of entering their square to attempt to disarm them.)

2.Provoking an AoO provokes from your square not from the square the action is resolved in. (this prevents weird situations coming up like guy bending over to pick up a sword that is behind him nad not provoking but picking it up in his own square would.)

3.Creatures occupy only the squares dictated by there space and no others unless a specific rule calls out that the creature occupies additonal squares,.(This futher enhances rule two by keeping it from being argued that a creatue occupies additonal squares while attacking disarming or anything else.

Warning the above rules are the DM known as Talonhawke's rulings for his own games and at no point should be used to argue RAW to your own GM.


Mabven the OP healer wrote:
slade867 wrote:
Hey guys here's a question. When someone disarms you, can you use your move action to pick up the weapon again assuming no one else beats you to it?
Yes. If the enemy who disarmed you, or any other enemy still threatens your square on your turn, they each get an attack of opportunity on you.

That's not what I asked. I asked if you can pick up the weapon. At all.

Let's just move thid along and go with "Yes".

There are 2 questions being debated here.

1. Can a character reach into an adjacent square to pick up an item?
2. If so, do they threaten from within that square?

I can answer the first one as a "yes" for sure. I can even prove it just as long as we agree that a disarmed person is capable of picking up their lost weapon.

If I disarm you we know I can pick up the weapon. That is stated explicitly in the rules. Now, your weapon is either in my square or in your square. If the weapon is in your square, there's the answer to question 1. I cannot stand in your square to pick up the item, so I must be able to reach in from my square.

If the weapon is in my square then either you can't get it (which means disarmed people can't retrieve their weapons) or you can which means you have to reach in. Now whether you can swing at someone's hand as they reach in is a more difficult question.

Liberty's Edge

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Link to the FAQ question.


Talonhawke wrote:


1. I would say yes you can pick up items that are in squares within your reach i would also allow some manipulation into those squares.(the manipulation comes from the fact that if you cannot manipulate items from outside your square rogues must always set off traps that trigger off of entering their square to attempt to disarm them.)

I'm going to have to conceed that rogues are going to have a problem disabling traps if they can't reach into other squares. But, if that rogue fails his Disable check to open a chest on a pressure plate and causes a tanglefoot bag to drop from the ceiling, he will always be safe. If a desk is trapped to burst a flask of acid when an item is plucked from its surface, all the unlucky rogue would ever risk is splash damage.

Now these may just be examples of poor trap design, but I think at the heart of this matter is the separation of the action from the actor, which is the result of reaching into an other square. I'm honestly wondering if it is tractable, and if perhaps the designers want to leave the question open.

This may be where the GM, the referee, will have to make a judgement concerning what happens when you separate the action from the actor by reaching into another square. I always felt the GM's job was to smooth over the rough edges of the rules.


I answered your question. There was nothing in your question about reaching into an adjacent square. You asked if disarmed, may you use your move action to pick up the item. The answer is yes, the item is in your square, and you may pick it up.

Now, can you pick up an item in an adjacent square. I give it even odds. At the end of the description of disarm, it says if you are unarmed, and successfully disarm, you can pick up the item automatically. This can either mean that you can use the "pick up an item" action on an item in an adjacent square under all circumstances, or it can mean it is a fringe case, an exception to the rule. I can not say either one is more likely than the other, which is why I have clicked the FAQ link which HangarFlying posted. (you should too)


Mabven the OP healer wrote:

I answered your question. There was nothing in your question about reaching into an adjacent square. You asked if disarmed, may you use your move action to pick up the item. The answer is yes, the item is in your square, and you may pick it up.

Now, can you pick up an item in an adjacent square. I give it even odds. At the end of the description of disarm, it says if you are unarmed, and successfully disarm, you can pick up the item automatically. This can either mean that you can use the "pick up an item" action on an item in an adjacent square under all circumstances, or it can mean it is a fringe case, an exception to the rule. I can not say either one is more likely than the other, which is why I have clicked the FAQ link which HangarFlying posted. (you should too)

I think this is to me.

If it's an exception then that means barring it there's no way for anyone except the disarmed person to retrieve the weapon. That doesn't seem right to me.


slade867 wrote:
Mabven the OP healer wrote:

I answered your question. There was nothing in your question about reaching into an adjacent square. You asked if disarmed, may you use your move action to pick up the item. The answer is yes, the item is in your square, and you may pick it up.

Now, can you pick up an item in an adjacent square. I give it even odds. At the end of the description of disarm, it says if you are unarmed, and successfully disarm, you can pick up the item automatically. This can either mean that you can use the "pick up an item" action on an item in an adjacent square under all circumstances, or it can mean it is a fringe case, an exception to the rule. I can not say either one is more likely than the other, which is why I have clicked the FAQ link which HangarFlying posted. (you should too)

I think this is to me.

If it's an exception then that means barring it there's no way for anyone except the disarmed person to retrieve the weapon. That doesn't seem right to me.

This all happens as part of a combat maneuver, a standard action, which is very different from picking up an item, a move action.

It is true that combat maneuvers allow you to manipulate items in adjacent squares. This has also been established for the Steal combat maneuver as well.

However, as for picking things up, a move action, there is no clear definition.

In the above scenario of the disarmed person, the 'disarmer' gets to pick up the weapon as part of the Disarm combat maneuver. However, could another adjacent enemy of the disarmed person reach in as a move action and pick the weapon up? If they can they will most certainly provoke an attack of opportunity. Now consider an ogre with 10 foot reach; can the ogre reach in and pick up the weapon as a move action from the very square the disarmed person is occupying, and do this without provoking because it is not occupying an adjacent threatened square?!

I would suggest the ogre needs to use the Steal combat maneuver, a standard action, to do so. And with this I think we are closer to a resolution to this matter.

I will suggest that if you want to reach in and pick up an item in an adjacent, threatened square you should use the Steal combat maneuver as a standard action to do so. I think someone may have suggested something like this before.


HangarFlying wrote:

#1 - while in combat, can you pick up (or otherwise handle or manipulate) an unattended object that is not located in your square, but otherwise located within your reach (ie an adjacent square for small or medium creatures)?

#2 - assuming that #1 is "yes",

I'll just add to this oddly empassioned discussion (which I've read more of than I probably should have) that the answer is almost certainly not "yes" or "no", but rather "it depends", "not usually, but sometimes", or some similar ambiguous statement.

In the orginal poster's situation, my ruling would be you have to move into the square to pick it up. Why? Here's my thoughts: during the moment of combat between two individuals, there's obviously LOTS of movement going on at the edge between their two squares, and in both squares as well. If one of 'em "hung back" at the far side of their square, the other can obviously move into that square to attack (make an attack roll). But they still aren't ever considered to actually use movement to get into the square or "be" in the square, when obviously they would have to be to make the attack. Once we understand that the square we're in is sometimes situationally fuzzzy - is that the case with the object? Uh, no, not really (IMO). At some point, you have to actually move REAL close (closer than 5') in order to pick it up.

Unless maybe half the square contained, say, a bathtub/washbasin - then I'd give the item a 50/50 chance of being in or out the water. In the water - you need to move in (and face my so-frightening orcish AoO). Out of the water - go ahead and grab from your square (and fear no AoO this go round).

These rules are all abstractions, and compunding that by imagining an abstract, cover-all-bases interpretation often leads us to compare abstract apples with abstract fruit-of-some-kind (maybe apple, but often not). Which can be maddening. I see no need to look at a Steal manuever as the "same" as an item on the ground in the square (say) between two folks. So many things MIGHT be different - my "fuzzy square" above, or the fact that I can Steal without bending over, e.g., but I do need to take my eye off of the bad guy to pick-up something from the ground.

In short - most sides I've seen here might be right some of the time. Though I do think that allowing an AoO in the original situation WITHOUT requiring a move into the square is not a good idea. At the very least, an implicit 5' step in/grab/step out from the "move action to pick up" seems wise to me. And no, I don't think that opens up any problems with, e.g., the Steal action - apples/not-apples, IMO.


slade867 wrote:

1. Can a character reach into an adjacent square to pick up an item?

I can answer the first one as a "yes" for sure.

I'd rephrase that "yes for sure" as "yes in some situations." Hopefully my other post makes clear why that's important.

Liberty's Edge

Lakesidefantasy wrote:

I will suggest that if you want to reach in and pick up an item in an adjacent, threatened square you should use the Steal combat maneuver as a standard action to do so. I think someone may have suggested something like this before.

I did do just that earlier in the thread in this post, with a foolow up in this post re the DC.

Basically by RAW you could use the Steal combat manouevre to reach into an adjacent unoccupied square to pick up an object, it would require a Standard action and a CMB check against a DC of something like -12 (so only likely to fail if you roll a natural 1). This does have the benefit of not provoking an AoO from anyone whatsoever.

It also means you can probably use the same tactic to pick up an item in your own square without provoking AoOs.


DigitalMage wrote:
Lakesidefantasy wrote:

I will suggest that if you want to reach in and pick up an item in an adjacent, threatened square you should use the Steal combat maneuver as a standard action to do so. I think someone may have suggested something like this before.

I did do just that earlier in the thread in this post, with a foolow up in this post re the DC.

Basically by RAW you could use the Steal combat manouevre to reach into an adjacent unoccupied square to pick up an object, it would require a Standard action and a CMB check against a DC of something like -12 (so only likely to fail if you roll a natural 1). This does have the benefit of not provoking an AoO from anyone whatsoever.

It also means you can probably use the same tactic to pick up an item in your own square without provoking AoOs.

Typically you don't make combat maneuver checks against a set DC, instead you check it against an opponents CMD. So I was thinking, as house rules go, instead of using the Steal maneuver a character could make a "simple" combat maneuver check to avoid an attack of opportunity when reaching into a threatened square to pick something up. (As a house rule of course because, as has been pointed out, by the rules reaching into a square does not provoke, but the rules also don't say you can reach into another sqaure to pick things up.)

This could possibly be extended to all non-attack actions that provoke attacks of opportunity, like picking something up in your own square, or administering a potion to dying comrade. But I don't know; that might be pushing it.

You know, with the current rules a PC could be in the same square as a dying orc, standing over it's unconscious body, and an ogre could reach over from out of range and administer a healing potion to that orc without ever provoking. Now that's a head scratcher.


This may need to be a new thread altogether but...

When picking up an item in a threatened square, your enemy gets an AoO, sure ok. I agree. But they are attacking with their fists. They do not have unarmed fighting, does their attacking me provoke an AoO as well?


Mazdiac wrote:

This may need to be a new thread altogether but...

When picking up an item in a threatened square, your enemy gets an AoO, sure ok. I agree. But they are attacking with their fists. They do not have unarmed fighting, does their attacking me provoke an AoO as well?

If the enemy does not have Improved Unarmed Strike, they are not armed, they do not threaten, and thus cannot get an attack of opportunity.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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It's funny, I had thought about digging up this thread so that its previous participants could be made aware of the new FAQ if they weren't already. Now here it is! :)

Official FAQ

FAQ wrote:

Reach and Objects: Can you pick up or manipulate an object in a square within your reach? Does this provoke an AOO? Does it provoke even if the foe can reach the object, but not your space?

The rules are a little hazy here, but to put it simply, you can affect objects and creatures within your reach. When picking up or manipulating objects, you generally provoke an attack of opportunity, but only against foes that can reach your space. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity from foes that cannot reach you, no matter what action you are taking, even if it includes reaching into a threatened space. Although it might seem realistic to allow an attack in such a case, it would make the game far too complicated.
This answer originally appeared in the 9/25/12 Paizo blog.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 03/01/13


Cool. I love me some FAQs. Way to go design team.


Jiggy wrote:

It's funny, I had thought about digging up this thread so that its previous participants could be made aware of the new FAQ if they weren't already. Now here it is! :)

Official FAQ

FAQ wrote:

Reach and Objects: Can you pick up or manipulate an object in a square within your reach? Does this provoke an AOO? Does it provoke even if the foe can reach the object, but not your space?

The rules are a little hazy here, but to put it simply, you can affect objects and creatures within your reach. When picking up or manipulating objects, you generally provoke an attack of opportunity, but only against foes that can reach your space. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity from foes that cannot reach you, no matter what action you are taking, even if it includes reaching into a threatened space. Although it might seem realistic to allow an attack in such a case, it would make the game far too complicated.
This answer originally appeared in the 9/25/12 Paizo blog.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 03/01/13

After reading the thread, this was the way my thinking on how the rules would go as well. Thanks for posting the FAQ entry.


Thanks for the FAQ reproduction. An interesting discussion, but I kind of wish I had just jumped to the end from the start! :)

I do wonder if anyone's opinion would've been different had the question not been phrased in a player(s) vs. DM manner. I can't help but feel some posters take one side or the other when these RAW discussions turn to RAI. As both a DM and player (~50/50), I try to consider things from both sides, but I have a tendency to favor the player which probably led me to lean in the official response's direction.


Wow my house rules weren't too far off then. Thanks Jiggy


Ansel Krulwich wrote:
Mazdiac wrote:

This may need to be a new thread altogether but...

When picking up an item in a threatened square, your enemy gets an AoO, sure ok. I agree. But they are attacking with their fists. They do not have unarmed fighting, does their attacking me provoke an AoO as well?

If the enemy does not have Improved Unarmed Strike, they are not armed, they do not threaten, and thus cannot get an attack of opportunity.

Thanks. Such a simple answer but that's all I needed. Much appreciated.

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