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Bad Days for Paladins and Wizards


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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I want to say it was Wraith Strike, but it could have been another poster who said, "Pathfinder is most fair when everything happens some of the time." That conversation inparticular I believe was about wizards occasionally losing their spell books.

I kind of wanted to get opinions on paladins, specifically non-lawful good variations. Occasionally LG paladins slip and have to atone, or pack their things and find a new way of life. I think it is probably a lot easier to keep your powers when you have a more convienent morality, like LN or LE. I don't know that there is much for it besides the CE antipaladin, though it's existence opens the idea of paladins of other gods.

If paladins are a stronger class than fighters, it is only because their creeds are more difficult. If a paladin isn't lawful good, but still gets powerups from god, I feel like they shouldn't be as strong. If all your paladin has to do is be tyrannical or pragmatic, rather than pious and kind, I don't see that your smite, fast lay on hands, or spell casting should be as good.

Opinions?


2 people marked this as a favorite.

woah did you say that pallys are stronger then fighters?

i will disagree sir, GOOD DAY!!


truesidekick wrote:

woah did you say that pallys are stronger then fighters?

i will disagree sir, GOOD DAY!!

Smite = all your extra combat feats.

Way more defensive (Cha to saves, immune to charm/disease, etc etc...)

Paladins > Fighters.

Come at me bro. xD


1 person marked this as a favorite.
cranewings wrote:

I want to say it was Wraith Strike, but it could have been another poster who said, "Pathfinder is most fair when everything happens some of the time." That conversation inparticular I believe was about wizards occasionally losing their spell books.

I kind of wanted to get opinions on paladins, specifically non-lawful good variations. Occasionally LG paladins slip and have to atone, or pack their things and find a new way of life. I think it is probably a lot easier to keep your powers when you have a more convienent morality, like LN or LE. I don't know that there is much for it besides the CE antipaladin, though it's existence opens the idea of paladins of other gods.

If paladins are a stronger class than fighters, it is only because their creeds are more difficult. If a paladin isn't lawful good, but still gets powerups from god, I feel like they shouldn't be as strong. If all your paladin has to do is be tyrannical or pragmatic, rather than pious and kind, I don't see that your smite, fast lay on hands, or spell casting should be as good.

Opinions?

You summon me, but have no sacrifice. :)

Serious comment: Those are not my words. I don't even know what that means. I think LE paladins or antipaladins could still require a strict code, even if it is different from a paladin's. LN is something that is not dedicated enough for me to call it a paladin.


I would not say stronger. I will say more versatile since they do decent damage, have mercies, and have spells.


Neo2151 wrote:
truesidekick wrote:

woah did you say that pallys are stronger then fighters?

i will disagree sir, GOOD DAY!!

Smite = all your extra combat feats.

Way more defensive (Cha to saves, immune to charm/disease, etc etc...)

Paladins > Fighters.

Come at me bro. xD

funny smite = all my feats... but what do you do other then suck and self heal against a construct or a non evil character?

my fighter can kill anything in the game np, i dont need to be immune to charms when i can take iron will and improved iron will, and a sweet little spell called globe of invulnerability with my umd warrior.

now let me ask you how well you do in melee and ranged? because i do both very well. not to mention i have a higher ac then you do, have full manuverability in heavy armor, AND could kick your teeth in a 1v1 fight.umd lets me cast any lack luster spells off you list i so choose to.

now i will admit that you have better saves then i do, but a samurai does your smite stick better then you do. not to mention im never in fear of losing my abilities and sucking for the rest of the adventure

L O L

and BTW ... I SAID GOOD DAY!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
cranewings wrote:
I kind of wanted to get opinions on paladins, specifically non-lawful good variations. Occasionally LG paladins slip and have to atone, or pack their things and find a new way of life. I think it is probably a lot easier to keep your powers when you have a more convienent morality, like LN or LE. I don't know that there is much for it besides the CE antipaladin, though it's existence opens the idea of paladins of other gods.

I think the whole reason paladins have so many powers is BECAUSE they have an inconvenient morality. That's the price they pay for being awesome. If you want the awesome without the inconvenience, too bad, you cannot have it.

I think that the Inquisitor fulfils the role of 'holy warrior of {insert faith here}' very well.

cranewings wrote:
If paladins are a stronger class than fighters, it is only because their creeds are more difficult. If a paladin isn't lawful good, but still gets powerups from god, I feel like they shouldn't be as strong. If all your paladin has to do is be tyrannical or pragmatic, rather than pious and kind, I don't see that your smite, fast lay on hands, or spell casting should be as good.

Exactly. So take these out and what have you?

Thinking it through, the paladin concept just does not work for other alignments.

Chaotic: Chaotic characters don't follow codes, so there's no 'code of conduct' beyond the character's own conscience - pretty much as for any other chaotic character. No code = no powers.

Evil: furthering the cause of evil is generally not a goal in and of itself. Evil characters are either furthering their OWN goals (in which case, see chaotic above) or don't actually realise they are evil. There is a classic case in Ravenloft of a paladin who has fallen and become a blackguard, but does not realise she has fallen. She is convinced she is still a paladin, and is still on the path of righteousness. It's everyone else who is evil!

So for evil the blackgard or anti-paladin covers it, and you can't have chaotic paladins, so what is left?

What I would say is that I think that some characters could - and should - gain paladin-like abilities, and there is a great way of doing this through feats. Then you could be any class, and still have a divine link to your deity or cause that grants abilities.

Hence, Cayden Cailean might not have paladins, but a particularly iconic warrior of his following might gain the ability to smite evil.

Silver Crusade

Dabbler wrote:
Hence, Cayden Cailean might not have paladins, but a particularly iconic warrior of his following might gain the ability to smite evil.

You've given me the start of an interesting idea. Yeah, an Inquisitor of Cayden Cailean... he can do the equivalent of 'smite evil' already-- it's called "judgement".... :D


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dabbler wrote:
Hence, Cayden Cailean might not have paladins, but a particularly iconic warrior of his following might gain the ability to smite evil.

Chevalier. Third level. :)


// blood for wraith strike

Back in the old days, we had LN paladins which were basically a long running Judge Dread joke, "Law? I am the law!"

As for the quote, I think they were saying that they thought the encounters and problems should be different as much as possible, plus class based disadvantages like losing your holy symbol or spell book should occasionally happen, but not often.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

How about this:

Divine Conduit
You forge a closer connection with your deity.
Pre-requisites: Cha 13, alignment the same as your patron deity.
Benefit: You gain a detectable alignment type identical to your deity's. This can be felt subconsciously, giving you a sacred or profane (depending on alignment) bonus equal to your charisma score on all social interactions with your deity's other worshippers'.

Divine Smite
You can bring the wrath of your god down on those that oppose them.
Pre-requisites: Cha 13, Divine Conduit.
Benefit: Choose one alignment opposite that of your deity (Evil if your deity is Good, Lawful if they are Chaotic, and so forth). You can now Smite (as the paladin smite evil ability) this alignment once per day, plus once for every five character levels you possess. You use your character level as the base level for bonus damage, but do not inflict double this bonus on extra-planar creatures or dragons.

You could add a whole range of abilities based on paladin powers, accessible via feats.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
cranewings wrote:

I want to say it was Wraith Strike, but it could have been another poster who said, "Pathfinder is most fair when everything happens some of the time." That conversation inparticular I believe was about wizards occasionally losing their spell books.

I kind of wanted to get opinions on paladins, specifically non-lawful good variations. Occasionally LG paladins slip and have to atone, or pack their things and find a new way of life. I think it is probably a lot easier to keep your powers when you have a more convienent morality, like LN or LE. I don't know that there is much for it besides the CE antipaladin, though it's existence opens the idea of paladins of other gods.

If paladins are a stronger class than fighters, it is only because their creeds are more difficult. If a paladin isn't lawful good, but still gets powerups from god, I feel like they shouldn't be as strong. If all your paladin has to do is be tyrannical or pragmatic, rather than pious and kind, I don't see that your smite, fast lay on hands, or spell casting should be as good.

Opinions?

1) Pally's ARE stronger than Fighters. Way stronger.

2) I allow non-lawful good Paladins in my games as I feel that every God should have the ability to have a potant militant devotee regardless of alignment. Its not important to me that a Paladin have a strict lawful good code, but rather than they have a strict code period, one appropriate to their deity. Its never been about alignment for me, its been about devotion.

Chaotic Neutral (for instance) might seem far easier to uphold than Lawful Good, but not so... remember that you have to actively sow Chaos and be opposed to any efforts to ensure or restore order all while making sure that you don't upset the balance between good and evil. That can get VERY difficult if properly RP'd correctly. And of course, you'd probably have Lawful Paladin's hunting you...

Silver Crusade

Neo2151 wrote:
truesidekick wrote:

woah did you say that pallys are stronger then fighters?

i will disagree sir, GOOD DAY!!

Smite = all your extra combat feats.

Way more defensive (Cha to saves, immune to charm/disease, etc etc...)

Paladins > Fighters.

Come at me bro. xD

LOL!!! Not even close. Smite only works on evil creatures, a fighter's works on everyone.

Silver Crusade

Mercurial wrote:
cranewings wrote:

I want to say it was Wraith Strike, but it could have been another poster who said, "Pathfinder is most fair when everything happens some of the time." That conversation inparticular I believe was about wizards occasionally losing their spell books.

I kind of wanted to get opinions on paladins, specifically non-lawful good variations. Occasionally LG paladins slip and have to atone, or pack their things and find a new way of life. I think it is probably a lot easier to keep your powers when you have a more convienent morality, like LN or LE. I don't know that there is much for it besides the CE antipaladin, though it's existence opens the idea of paladins of other gods.

If paladins are a stronger class than fighters, it is only because their creeds are more difficult. If a paladin isn't lawful good, but still gets powerups from god, I feel like they shouldn't be as strong. If all your paladin has to do is be tyrannical or pragmatic, rather than pious and kind, I don't see that your smite, fast lay on hands, or spell casting should be as good.

Opinions?

1) Pally's ARE stronger than Fighters. Way stronger.

LOL!!!! Jesus, Mary and Joseph!

How on earth do you come up with something like that?


shallowsoul wrote:
Mercurial wrote:


1) Pally's ARE stronger than Fighters. Way stronger.

LOL!!!! Jesus, Mary and Joseph!

How on earth do you come up with something like that?

As I mentioned earlier, at 20th level (just to use a standard) a Paladin has about 1200 hit points worth of swift self-healing. That's a good place to start. Add in the fact that they don't have to be over-reliant on magic equipment which is NOT an inherent part of a character class.

Let a Fighter pick his best mundane armor and weapon, let a Paladin do the same and see who gets through an encounter in better shape. No cloaks, no rings, no special boots or belts - just what the character brings to the table.

For the record, I love Fighters. I've worked longer and harder on my Greatsword Fighter than any character I've ever had. I'm just calling a spade a spade.

Also, the Paladin I run takes advantage of the Eldritch Heritage line of feats due to his high charisma, which includes some pretty potent self-buffs.


wraithstrike wrote:
Serious comment: Those are not my words. I don't even know what that means. I think LE paladins or antipaladins could still require a strict code, even if it is different from a paladin's. LN is something that is not dedicated enough for me to call it a paladin.

I can buy into that line of thought - CE, LE, CG and LG paladins only... the restrictions should be along the lines of both order/chaos AND good/evil to be appropriately inhibiting. Although to be fair, it depends on your concept of 'Neutral' as an ideal. Bouncing back and forth between good and evil acts and calling yourself neutral is a cop-out - but walking the fine line between both, trying to deliberately maintain the balance... that can be harder than committing yourself wholely one way or the other.


shallowsoul wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:
truesidekick wrote:

woah did you say that pallys are stronger then fighters?

i will disagree sir, GOOD DAY!!

Smite = all your extra combat feats.

Way more defensive (Cha to saves, immune to charm/disease, etc etc...)

Paladins > Fighters.

Come at me bro. xD

LOL!!! Not even close. Smite only works on evil creatures, a fighter's works on everyone.

Here's how I might phrase is:

Divine Grace, Divine Health, Aura of Courage, Aura of Resolve and Aura of Righteousness > Armor Training 1-4

Bond Weapon, Smite Evil, Aura of Justice, Aura of Faith > Weapon Training 1-4

Detect Evil, Lay on Hands w/Mercies, Spells and Channelling > Bonus Feats

...so, in conclusion, Paladins > Fighters.

That's not saying Fighters aren't great or can't be every bit as much fun to play... just that when it comes down to brass tax, Paladins are more survivable, less reliant on magic equipment to shore up weaknesses, offer more to the party as a whole and deal comparable if not better damage.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mercurial wrote:

1) Pally's ARE stronger than Fighters. Way stronger.

No. A paladin will be able to put some serious whup-down on an EVIL fighter by smiting, self-healing and using spells. A paladin vs a non-evil fighter is going to get his halo rammed some place somewhere painful, because without his smite he is going to have a lower chance to hit, lower AC and will dish out less damage. The fighter still has his extra feats for dishing out hurt of his own and pulling off nifty combat tricks. He even has better stats, because he didn't waste any points on Charisma.

Paladins are great at dishing out hurt to evil foes. It's what they do, and they rock at it. Against non-evil foes, they are an also-ran.


Dabbler wrote:
Mercurial wrote:

1) Pally's ARE stronger than Fighters. Way stronger.

No. A paladin will be able to put some serious whup-down on an EVIL fighter by smiting, self-healing and using spells. A paladin vs a non-evil fighter is going to get his halo rammed some place somewhere painful, because without his smite he is going to have a lower chance to hit, lower AC and will dish out less damage. The fighter still has his extra feats for dishing out hurt of his own and pulling off nifty combat tricks. He even has better stats, because he didn't waste any points on Charisma.

Paladins are great at dishing out hurt to evil foes. It's what they do, and they rock at it. Against non-evil foes, they are an also-ran.

Its not as if those self-heals and spells disappear when he's not fighting evil foes, is it? What about Weapon Bond? Auras? Channelling? Higher saves?

I'm content with my (much) higher saves and ability to swiftly self heal a ton of hit points, cast spells, etc. off-setting a Fighter's slightly higher accuracy and (possibly) slightly higher armor class... but lets also acknowledge two things: 1) Evil foes make up 75%-90% of the foes we face in the game and 2) being able to channel, heal, remove conditions, cast spells and radiate auras let a Paladin bring a lot more to the table party-wise than a Fighter normally would. A Paladin is a force multiplier whereas a Fighter is not.

Like I said, pick a level, outfit your fighter with all the mundane equipment you want - I'll do the same with my Paladin. At the end of three standard encounters I can promise you that I will be in better shape, have dealt more damage and probably have saved your but a time or two in the process.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dabbler wrote:
Mercurial wrote:

1) Pally's ARE stronger than Fighters. Way stronger.

No. A paladin will be able to put some serious whup-down on an EVIL fighter by smiting, self-healing and using spells. A paladin vs a non-evil fighter is going to get his halo rammed some place somewhere painful, because without his smite he is going to have a lower chance to hit, lower AC and will dish out less damage. The fighter still has his extra feats for dishing out hurt of his own and pulling off nifty combat tricks. He even has better stats, because he didn't waste any points on Charisma.

Paladins are great at dishing out hurt to evil foes. It's what they do, and they rock at it. Against non-evil foes, they are an also-ran.

I disagree. For Paladin fighting non evil encounters they just can't use smite evil. Everything else works like Divine Bond weapon, swift healing, immunities, bonus to saves, spells and DR 10/evil.

At high level the Paladin is just as effective as the fighter vs no evil. Sure the fighter is little better offensively but the paladin makes up for the defensively with better saves, immunities, and swift action healing. If the encounter is an evil creature the Paladin is suddenly way more powerful than the fighter but can use aura of justice to make the fighter just as powerful.

Where the fighter is better is in feats, he can take feats that the Paladin can't (going ranged and melee). He also has staying power, after the Paladin has run out of spells, smites, bonded weapon uses the figher is still going assuming he has the hit points to keep going.

Silver Crusade

voska66 wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Mercurial wrote:

1) Pally's ARE stronger than Fighters. Way stronger.

No. A paladin will be able to put some serious whup-down on an EVIL fighter by smiting, self-healing and using spells. A paladin vs a non-evil fighter is going to get his halo rammed some place somewhere painful, because without his smite he is going to have a lower chance to hit, lower AC and will dish out less damage. The fighter still has his extra feats for dishing out hurt of his own and pulling off nifty combat tricks. He even has better stats, because he didn't waste any points on Charisma.

Paladins are great at dishing out hurt to evil foes. It's what they do, and they rock at it. Against non-evil foes, they are an also-ran.

I disagree. For Paladin fighting non evil encounters they just can't use smite evil. Everything else works like Divine Bond weapon, swift healing, immunities, bonus to saves, spells and DR 10/evil.

At high level the Paladin is just as effective as the fighter vs no evil. Sure the fighter is little better offensively but the paladin makes up for the defensively with better saves, immunities, and swift action healing. If the encounter is an evil creature the Paladin is suddenly way more powerful than the fighter but can use aura of justice to make the fighter just as powerful.

Where the fighter is better is in feats, he can take feats that the Paladin can't (going ranged and melee). He also has staying power, after the Paladin has run out of spells, smites, bonded weapon uses the figher is still going assuming he has the hit points to keep going.

But the fighter is sporting tons of feats, better mobility and better AC in the heaviest armor, better to hit while wielding his primary weapon, 5/- DR, Auto confirm crits plus all the crits feats that he can take along with it.


shallowsoul wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:
truesidekick wrote:

woah did you say that pallys are stronger then fighters?

i will disagree sir, GOOD DAY!!

Smite = all your extra combat feats.

Way more defensive (Cha to saves, immune to charm/disease, etc etc...)

Paladins > Fighters.

Come at me bro. xD

LOL!!! Not even close. Smite only works on evil creatures, a fighter's works on everyone.

Here's how I might phrase is:

Divine Grace, Divine Health, Aura of Courage, Aura of Resolve and Aura of Righteousness > Armor Training 1-4

Bond Weapon, Smite Evil, Aura of Justice, Aura of Faith > Weapon Training 1-4

Detect Evil, Lay on Hands w/Mercies, Spells and Channelling > Bonus Feats

...so, in conclusion, Paladins > Fighters.

That's not saying Fighters aren't great or can't be every bit as much fun to play... just that when it comes down to brass tax, Paladins are more survivable, less reliant on magic equipment to shore up weaknesses, offer more to the party as a whole and deal comparable if not better damage.


shallowsoul wrote:
voska66 wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Mercurial wrote:

1) Pally's ARE stronger than Fighters. Way stronger.

No. A paladin will be able to put some serious whup-down on an EVIL fighter by smiting, self-healing and using spells. A paladin vs a non-evil fighter is going to get his halo rammed some place somewhere painful, because without his smite he is going to have a lower chance to hit, lower AC and will dish out less damage. The fighter still has his extra feats for dishing out hurt of his own and pulling off nifty combat tricks. He even has better stats, because he didn't waste any points on Charisma.

Paladins are great at dishing out hurt to evil foes. It's what they do, and they rock at it. Against non-evil foes, they are an also-ran.

I disagree. For Paladin fighting non evil encounters they just can't use smite evil. Everything else works like Divine Bond weapon, swift healing, immunities, bonus to saves, spells and DR 10/evil.

At high level the Paladin is just as effective as the fighter vs no evil. Sure the fighter is little better offensively but the paladin makes up for the defensively with better saves, immunities, and swift action healing. If the encounter is an evil creature the Paladin is suddenly way more powerful than the fighter but can use aura of justice to make the fighter just as powerful.

Where the fighter is better is in feats, he can take feats that the Paladin can't (going ranged and melee). He also has staying power, after the Paladin has run out of spells, smites, bonded weapon uses the figher is still going assuming he has the hit points to keep going.

But the fighter is sporting tons of feats, better mobility and better AC in the heaviest armor, better to hit while wielding his primary weapon, 5/- DR, Auto confirm crits plus all the crits feats that he can take along with it.

We're talking a little better mobility, a little better AC, a little better to-hit... and that's ONLY against non-evil foes which are a bare fraction of the foes most parties face. Meanwhile the trade off or that is effectively five to six times the hit points, spells that offer offensive and defensive buffs, auras that make everyone in the party stronger both offensively and defensively, the ability to channel, the ability to tailor-enhance his weapon at a moment's notice and so on.

Its not as if Paladins can't use tricks too... mine has the Orc bloodline Eldritch Heritage feats which are sick on a Pally, and use both Cornugon Smash and Dreadful Carnage to tremendous effect - particularly against those neutral fighters with their low Will saves ;)


Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This whole discusion has me amused at work.

But even though I am not a huge paladin fan and prefer fighters myself, I have to say in a fight paladin vs fighter both equally equiped and same level range the paladin should win hands down. The swift lay on hands for himself make a HUGE difference, and as the paladin gets up in levels the difference gets even bigger as they start to heal more damage with each use. Meaning they can take more hits before they even need to use it.


The fighter is so far ahead of the paladin when doing damage that he can two-round the paladin even with the paladin's healing ability tacked on.
Well at lower levels the paladin has a chance, but the higher they go in level the worse it gets for the paladin, not that pvp is an accurate way to prove power in terms of party dynamics.


Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
wraithstrike wrote:

The fighter is so far ahead of the paladin when doing damage that he can two-round the paladin even with the paladin's healing ability tacked on.

Well at lower levels the paladin has a chance, but the higher they go in level the worse it gets for the paladin, not that pvp is an accurate way to prove power in terms of party dynamics.

Ok so other than weapon specilization and improved weapon specialization what does a fighter get damage wise that a paladin CANNOT get? Only looking for the extra damage abilities/feats.


Weapon training from the fighter class. He also gets more feats that he can use. Toughness gets more hp. Improved init means he is more likely to go first. Improved Critical also improved DPR. Furious Focus almost guarantees that first power attack hits if he uses a two-handed weapon. The list goes on.
If the fighter goes for an archer based build he is has more feat, and is less MAD.


wraithstrike wrote:

The fighter is so far ahead of the paladin when doing damage that he can two-round the paladin even with the paladin's healing ability tacked on.

Well at lower levels the paladin has a chance, but the higher they go in level the worse it gets for the paladin, not that pvp is an accurate way to prove power in terms of party dynamics.

I agree wholeheartedly that PvP is the absolute worst way to compare two characters when it comes to what they bring to the party, and this case is the perfect example - Paladins can be force multipliers whereas Fighters seem only able to shine in a toe-to-toe situation.

I have to ask though - what is it inherent to Fighters that make them 'so far ahead of the Paladin when doing damage'? I know that they get the Specialization feats (+4 dmg/attack total) and the Weapon Training class feature (+1 to +4 damage/attack total) which i feel the Paladin's Weapon Bond feature mitigates in comparison... where are the other sources of damage available to the Fighter that aren't available to the Paladin?

I get a +6 Strength bonus from Eldritch Heritage feats, as well as the ability to grow large and grab another +6 Strength bonus (among other things)... those feats are technically available to a Fighter as well, though its tremendously unlikely that they will have the Charisma to qualify for them. Even so, I don't count that +6 attack and +9 damage into the equation when comparing the two.


Well I do have to admit I was going against the AC of stock monsters so when dealing with a player that might change, but they are still far enough ahead that the paladin should avoid neutral fighters.


Pathfinder Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
wraithstrike wrote:

Weapon training from the fighter class. He also gets more feats that he can use. Toughness gets more hp. Improved init means he is more likely to go first. Improved Critical also improved DPR. Furious Focus almost guarantees that first power attack hits if he uses a two-handed weapon. The list goes on.

If the fighter goes for an archer based build he is has more feat, and is less MAD.

Most of those are ones I would take as a Paladin also, power attack, weapon focus, improved inititate, toughness, improved critical. That puts the paladin at lv 9 with some solid feats for a melee type paladin. Though to be honest I might switch out the toughness for cleave, but that puts the fighter at 9 extra hp at lv 9.

(not sure what DPR stands for, at work and do not have my book to look it up) The fighter will have extra feats so it can branch out and do archery also if it wants or give itself feats like iron will to help with its saves. Also would need to look up furious focus because I cannot remember what it does off the top of my head.

From what I see the fighter right now would be doing 2 points more damage per hit using the same weapon (weapon specialization (cannot remember if improved weapon spec is lv 8 or 12)) But please break it down for me if you do not mind.


wraithstrike wrote:
Weapon training from the fighter class. He also gets more feats that he can use. Toughness gets more hp. Improved init means he is more likely to go first. Improved Critical also improved DPR. Furious Focus almost guarantees that first power attack hits if he uses a two-handed weapon. The list goes on.

Oh - meh.

Toughness gets a Fighter 20 more hit points. Extra Lay On Hands gets a Paladin 20d6 in additional swift healing... and the first level spell Heroic Defiance allows him to use it as an immediate action even if he loses initiative.

Fighters get Weapon Training for a +1 to +4 benefit. Paladins get Weapon Bond which grants the same benefit up to +5 AND allows them to make a weapon Keen, Speed, Flaming Burst, Defending, etc. negating Greater Weapon Focus and the need for the Improved Critical feat, more than matching the Fighter's benefit.

The Fighter has Furious Focus and Power Attack - but so does my Paladin, those feats aren't inherent to being a Fighter. We're both full BAB classes, both have access to the same weapons and armor. The list goes on. Meanwhile Fighters are using up those bonus feats to shore up weaknesses like Iron Will, something the Paladin doesn't have to bother with.


This is my Paladin's build - I don't see any Fighters out-classing him with regards to damage output against non-evil foes, and against evil foes - by far the most common - it isn't even close.

And that's just damage.

Human Paladin of Sarenrae (Oathsworn - Oath of Vengeance)

Attributes
Str 16 (+2 racial bonus, +1 at 4th, 8th, +2 at 11th, 15th and 17th)
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 16 (+1 at 12th, 16th and 20th)

Feats
1st - Power Attack
1st - Furious Focus
3rd - Extra Lay on Hands
5th - Extra Lay on Hands
7th - Skill Focus: Survival
9th - Eldritch Heritage (Orcish Bloodline: Touch of Rage)
11th - Improved Eldritch Heritage (Orcish Bloodline: Strength of the Beast)
13th - Quicken Spell-Like Ability: Touch of Rage (if GM allowed - if not then Cornugon Smash)
15th - Dreadful Carnage
17th - Greater Eldritch Heritage (Orcish Bloodline: Power of Giants)
19th - Quicken Spell-Like Ability: Power of Giants (if GM allowed - if not then Radiant Charge or Stunning Assault)

Traits:
Bully (+1 Intimidate, Intimidate is a class skill)
Poverty Stricken (+1 Survival, Survival is a class skill)

Skills:
Intimidate 1 rank/level
Survival 1 rank/level
Knowledge: Religion 1 rank/odd level
Diplomacy 1 rank/even level


Banecrow wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

Weapon training from the fighter class. He also gets more feats that he can use. Toughness gets more hp. Improved init means he is more likely to go first. Improved Critical also improved DPR. Furious Focus almost guarantees that first power attack hits if he uses a two-handed weapon. The list goes on.

If the fighter goes for an archer based build he is has more feat, and is less MAD.

Most of those are ones I would take as a Paladin also, power attack, weapon focus, improved inititate, toughness, improved critical. That puts the paladin at lv 9 with some solid feats for a melee type paladin. Though to be honest I might switch out the toughness for cleave, but that puts the fighter at 9 extra hp at lv 9.

(not sure what DPR stands for, at work and do not have my book to look it up) The fighter will have extra feats so it can branch out and do archery also if it wants or give itself feats like iron will to help with its saves. Also would need to look up furious focus because I cannot remember what it does off the top of my head.

From what I see the fighter right now would be doing 2 points more damage per hit using the same weapon (weapon specialization (cannot remember if improved weapon spec is lv 8 or 12)) But please break it down for me if you do not mind.

Damage per round. It is formula that uses the attack bonus, number of attacks, chance to crit, opponent's AC, and maybe something else to determine the average amount of damage that is expected.


Mercurial wrote:

This is my Paladin's build - I don't see any Fighters out-classing him with regards to damage output against non-eveil foes, and against evil foes - by far the most common - it isn't even close.

And that's just damage.

Human Paladin of Sarenrae (Oathsworn - Oath of Vengeance)

Attributes
Str 16 (+2 racial bonus, +1 at 4th, 8th, +2 at 11th, 15th and 17th)
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 16 (+1 at 12th, 16th and 20th)

Feats
1st - Power Attack
1st - Furious Focus
3rd - Extra Lay on Hands
5th - Extra Lay on Hands
7th - Skill Focus: Survival
9th - Eldritch Heritage (Orcish Bloodline: Touch of Rage)
11th - Improved Eldritch Heritage (Orcish Bloodline: Strength of the Beast)
13th - Quicken Spell-Like Ability: Touch of Rage (if GM allowed - if not then Cornugon Smash)
15th - Dreadful Carnage
17th - Greater Eldritch Heritage (Orcish Bloodline: Power of Giants)
19th - Quicken Spell-Like Ability: Power of Giants (if GM allowed - if not then Radiant Charge or Stunning Assault)

Traits:
Bully (+1 Intimidate, Intimidate is a class skill)
Poverty Stricken (+1 Survival, Survival is a class skill)

Skills:
Intimidate 1 rank/level
Survival 1 rank/level
Knowledge: Religion 1 rank/odd level
Diplomacy 1 rank/even level

Even at level 10 the paladin is 10-15 points points behind the fighter.

Using equipment it was 20 so I am guestimating that without equipment the pally suffers less.

weapon focus, great WF, weapon spec, greater WF, , improved crit, power attack, furious focus.
Eldritch Heritage is available to everyone. Taking 13 to charisma is not going to hurt the fighter at all.
Things like intimidating prowess and shatter defenses are also feats a fighter can afford.


wraithstrike wrote:

Even at level 10 the paladin is 10-15 points points behind the fighter.

Using equipment it was 20 so I am guestimating that without equipment the pally suffers less.

weapon focus, great WF, weapon spec, greater WF, , improved crit, power attack, furious focus.
Eldritch Heritage is available to everyone. Taking 13 to charisma is not going to hurt the fighter at all.
Things like intimidating prowess and shatter defenses are also feats a fighter can afford.

Again, respectfully - and I have a lot of respect for you as a poster on these boards - I think you're completely wrong. Looking at level 10 and your list:

Power Attack and Furious Focus:
They both have that.

Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization:
(Greater Weapon Specialization isn't available for the fighter til 12th level)
Equates to +2 attack/+2 damage for the Fighter - at 8th level Weapon Bond grants the same benefit.

Improved Critical:
At 11th - one level later - the Paladin can stack Keen onto his weapon Bond benefit. Or he can take a +1 enhancement hit and do it now.

I do think that taking a 13 Charisma would hurt many Fighters considering its generally considered a dump stat for them - but in this case it requires three non-combat feats and a 15 Charisma to get the Strength bonus, and neither character would get it until 11th level anyway. Those bonus feats would start to run short, especially if he's chasing Iron Will, Improved Iron will, Intimidating Prowess, etc.. later on, the Eldritch feats keep on giving and do so with Charisma pre-req's the Fighter couldn't match.

The math just doesn't add up.

And again, we are JUST talking about DPR here, not the myraid of other advantages a Paladin possesses, AND we're presuming a neutral foe or a head-to-head match-up, neither of which are likely to occur as often in a game as facing off against the forces of evil.

If you would like - as an intellectual exercise - make a Fighter of any level and I'll present this Paladin to match him statistically and we can compare hard numbers. No magic or special equipment, just what each character brings to the table.


I did not know we were focusing on level 10. Sorry about that.
In that case I would not take the eldritch feats. I do however think that weapon training is a big advantage. +4 looks small but when running calculations it provides a big boost. The ranger's +6 pushes DPR by another +30ish for example IIRC.


wraithstrike wrote:

I did not know we were focusing on level 10. Sorry about that.

In that case I would not take the eldritch feats. I do however think that weapon training is a big advantage. +4 looks small but when running calculations it provides a big boost. The ranger's +6 pushes DPR by another +30ish for example IIRC.

I wasn't trying to focus on a particular level - just used 10th because you did.

I DO think Weapon Training is a big advantage for the Fighter... but then we're not counting Paladin spells that enhance armor class or attack bonus, are we? And as I said, the Eldritch Feats eventually provide a total of +6 attack and +9 damage bonus that the Fighter's +4/+4 Weapon Training won't match...

...and we're not even getting into the much-debated possibility that Quicken SLA might allow the Paladin to use Touch of Rage on himself.


I am not saying the fighter is better all around. I am saying when it comes to single damage based combat against any one opponent the fighter is pretty far ahead until the paladin starts smiting.

I do accept your neutral challenge. I will post a build tomorrow since I am about to go to work.

20 point buy ok?

Books:CRB, UM, UC, and APG.

Races:core only.

If you have any other suggestions I will check them when I get back.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Not having evil monsters in this genre is impossible. Smite Evil will work much more often than not. It's almost a weakness of the genre to have Earth shattering threats that isn't evil. Somebody evil is almost always behind it. Therefore, paladins > fighters. And I love fighters. And it's only because Smite Evil goes through DR. I would give up basically every other ability of the Smite as long as I kept the part where paladins bypass the DR.

It's tough to make a good and compelling reason for a wizard to lose his spellbook and have GM and player both not crying foul. If it can be done, it's great, but most of the time it won't be.


wraithstrike wrote:

I am not saying the fighter is better all around. I am saying when it comes to single damage based combat against any one opponent the fighter is pretty far ahead until the paladin starts smiting.

I do accept your neutral challenge. I will post a build tomorrow since I am about to go to work.

20 point buy ok?

Books:CRB, UM, UC, and APG.

Races:core only.

If you have any other suggestions I will check them when I get back.

Sounds great - should be interesting. What level would you like to set it at? 6th? 12th? 20th? I made the character with a 25 point buy so unless you want me re-tinkering around with him to try to reaccomodate certain feats, let's use that as our benchmark.

Let's just agree that for the purposes of this comparison, we don't bother with equipment beyond the mundane sort, since the two characters can pretty much use the same equipment anyway.


10 is good enough for me.

Silver Crusade

I say lets do 12th level with a 25 point buy. I will join in as well. I will go with a sword and board type fighter if wraith wants to go with a two-handed one.

No magic gear.


shallowsoul wrote:

I say lets do 12th level with a 25 point buy. I will join in as well. I will go with a sword and board type fighter if wraith wants to go with a two-handed one.

No magic gear.

If Wraithstrike doesn't object, I'm fine with 12th level, 25 point buy. It'll qualify the Fighter for Greater Specialization and add in the second iterative attack. Since AC has to be a factor in these comparisons, a sword and board comparison might be good to have alongside a two-hander.

I assume that all characters built will be 'playable' characters, not unbalanced solely for the purposes of this comparison. I'll be using my standard character with a single small alteration - I'll be switching out my 3rd level feat Extra Lay On Hands for Weapon Focus. I have good reasons for not selecting it in my campaign, mainly so that I can switch between two-handed or sword and board as the situation calls for it, but that clearly wouldn't be taken into account for our purposes here.

Attributes, Feats, Traits and Class abilities... that's pretty much all we're focusing on. Mundane armor and armaments of choice.

Qadira

If it's all right with you... I would like to enter as well. I think that you all are forgeting ranged. I will aid the Paladin side and create a Ranged Paladin, at 12th, with a 25 point buy, and mundane items.


Tirq wrote:
If it's all right with you... I would like to enter as well. I think that you all are forgeting ranged. I will aid the Paladin side and create a Ranged Paladin, at 12th, with a 25 point buy, and mundane items.

I have no objection - just keep in mind that what we're comparing is a Fighter's ability to deal damage over a Paladin's ability to deal damage to a non-Evil target.

I like the bow Paladin concept, but in my mind its only really feasible if you take into account the ability to Smite which won't apply here.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I just finished playing in a Rise of the Runelords campaign that had a dwarf fighter and an elf paladin from start to finish. The were a terrible tandem at times, but the fighter took a pounding a lot better than the paladin.

Granted much of that is about the difference of elf to dwarf on con, but armor traning turned out to be a big difference as the dwarf got dex bonuses that the elf didn't making him harder to hit except when smite was in play.

While the big bad guys are always evil the minions weren't. Lots of neutral there that didn't let smite be a factor.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

The fighter is weaker than the paladin and if you're arguing otherwise you're a fool. They deal slightly less damage when not smiting however that doesn't matter. They have better saves, access to spells, immunities, have the ability to heal themselves and still make full attacks, are better at social skills, and crush enemies to dust when they have smite up. Since cha is a secondary stat for paladins they can go into the orc bloodline which means they will have a higher strength score then the fighter. A paladin won't cause a tpk because of mind affecting spells however a fighter will. On top of that we can throw away the statements of a fighter having better armor considering what spells the paladin has access to.

Qadira

Mercurial wrote:
Tirq wrote:
If it's all right with you... I would like to enter as well. I think that you all are forgeting ranged. I will aid the Paladin side and create a Ranged Paladin, at 12th, with a 25 point buy, and mundane items.

I have no objection - just keep in mind that what we're comparing is a Fighter's ability to deal damage over a Paladin's ability to deal damage to a non-Evil target.

I like the bow Paladin concept, but in my mind its only really feasible if you take into account the ability to Smite which won't apply here.

Well, I just stated up on PCgen a Paladin, and then a Fighter with same weapons, and the damage was pretty substancial.

Because I just now realized that the ranged Pally works on Smite (huhu, duh Stoopid me), I think that area damage-wise lies to Fighter. Granted, I don't consider the Composite Longbow a mundane item, so I went with the second strongest... the Heavy Crossbow. At that level, you can successfully build a Crossbow character. Complete with PBshot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, and Crossbow Mastery. The difference between 1d10+6 at +30ft. and 1d10 at equal distances is significant. The main part that I find a big Make-or-Break is that the Divine Bond gives +2, only lasts for 12 minutes, and you can activate it 2/day. Fighter is always at +6 damage. Not only that, but the Fighter also had enough Feats to have Improved Critical and more.

I'll just drop out here and say good luck.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mercurial wrote:
We're talking a little better mobility, a little better AC, a little better to-hit... and...

No, YOU are talking a little better, we are talking about a LOT better.

At 20th level, and equipped in identical heavy armour and weapons and the fighter has +5 to hit over the paladin, +8 to damage, +4 to AC. He will score more hits, do more damage on each hit, and receive less hits in return.

If you set them against one another, the fighter will win, because his greater damage output will add up to more than the paladin can heal per turn. The fighter also has the advantage of all his other feats - for example, a paladin disarmed or with his weapon sundered is at a BIG disadvantage.

I do agree, the paladin has better saves, immunities and the like, but these are defensive features that may or may not factor in. Unless the paladin is fighting evil, the advantage is to the fighter.


Dabbler wrote:
Mercurial wrote:
We're talking a little better mobility, a little better AC, a little better to-hit... and...

No, YOU are talking a little better, we are talking about a LOT better.

At 20th level, and equipped in identical heavy armour and weapons and the fighter has +5 to hit over the paladin, +8 to damage, +4 to AC. He will score more hits, do more damage on each hit, and receive less hits in return.

If you set them against one another, the fighter will win, because his greater damage output will add up to more than the paladin can heal per turn. The fighter also has the advantage of all his other feats - for example, a paladin disarmed or with his weapon sundered is at a BIG disadvantage.

I do agree, the paladin has better saves, immunities and the like, but these are defensive features that may or may not factor in. Unless the paladin is fighting evil, the advantage is to the fighter.

All of that works very well if you take into account ALL of the Fighter's class features and ignore MOST of the Paladin's.

Did you include the +6 enhancement bonuses and features Paladins can give their weapons at level 20? What about spells that increase their Armor Class? How about something like Shield of the Dawnflower which would cause the Fighter to 1d6+15 points of damage every single time he hit the Paladin? Not every round - every HIT, no spell resistance, no saving throw. You do realize that at level 20 the Paladin is swift healing 60 points of damage every round, right? And hammering away at the non-healing Fighter with full attack actions the entire time...

Did you take into account the Eldritch Heritage feats I listed, that the Paladin would qualify for due to his high Charisma but the Fighter would not? At level 17, without a piece of magic equipment on him, he would have a 32 Strength, an 18 Constitution, +4 to his Natural Armor, a large weapon and Reach.

See above.

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