Bad Days for Paladins and Wizards


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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cranewings wrote:
I think this thread has proved that if the Fighter is outdoing the Paladin, I would never be able to tell in an actual game.

my position in this thread is that a fighter is not weaker then a pally.

a pally is not weaker then a fighter. how can you guage this, you cant. its my view point vs your view point.

i do not believe that pallys are stronger then fighters or vice versa.


wraithstrike wrote:

Even at level 12 a similar thing takes place. She can use lesser demons, and less of them.

Retreating is a good idea. I wish more players would learn the value of it when it is an option.

This, so much this. Did no one else ever pay attention to the fact the 3.x DMGs noted that a small number of encounters are simply overpowering? You are not meant to win everything all the time. Retreat is a valid tactic when it is needed. Better part of valor and all that. Live to fight another day, and all that. If stuff is going to the crapper, there is no shame of playing group-hug while your mage casts teleport.

I don't expect every class to have an answer for everything. I do wish some would try harder though. I don't think Paladins are some sort of god-warrior (despite the ironic term), nor do I think full-casters are super game breaking death machines. I do know that a lot can go wrong during a campaign (by go-wrong, I mean face a challenge that hinders your overall success) and the sheer arsenal that I have sitting behind my GM screen in my GM's toolbox is staggering.

That's why I appreciate the Paladin and the Ranger. Both of those classes possess problem solving potential. Both of them are solid martials, and both bring something to the table beyond being a supped up warrior-NPC class. The Paladin has options, and options are good. It's harder for me, as a GM, to invalidate the Paladin accidentally. In fact, it's hard for me as a GM to invalidate the Paladin on purpose because worst case scenario, they still have really sick awesome defenses, mobile opportunities, tactical buffs, party defending potential, etc. Heck, even if the party was fighting a neutral being that physical weapons just were useless against, the Paladin can STILL just stand next to another party member, shield other, and then spam healing via LoH, Wands, or magic items.


truesidekick wrote:
cranewings wrote:
I think this thread has proved that if the Fighter is outdoing the Paladin, I would never be able to tell in an actual game.

my position in this thread is that a fighter is not weaker then a pally.

a pally is not weaker then a fighter. how can you guage this, you cant. its my view point vs your view point.

i do not believe that pallys are stronger then fighters or vice versa.

Ok. I can agree with that. I was just unclear as to what the other posts was saying.

Scarab Sages

I tried to avoid taking sides on this one, and for the most part I will.

The cool thing I love about fighters is that it's relatively difficult to build a crappy one. Sure, you COULD make a fighter that has 8 strength, but noone is gonna do that (unless you're a crazy dervish dance fan). With all the flat bonuses, even a 12 Str. fighter would probably work just fine.

Additionally, you can play a fighter however you want. Being totally mutable in a roleplaying situation is a useful trait. Don't get me wrong, you can have complex, interesting Paladins, but being able to dish out the hurt, shore up your defenses, and still be able to essentially do whatever you want is nice.

Paladin, however, is a lot easier to mess up. You have to find that perfect balance of Strength, Charisma, and secondary stats for defenses. If you're playing an AMAZING Paladin, you'll grab at least 13 Int. for Unsanctioned Knowledge (You can haste yourself, your party, turn invisible, get better buff spells... there's no reason NOT to take this feat if you can). Paladins have such a huge number of options available that they're really easy to make ineffective in combat if not built well.

But man, if you build a paladin well, you can just do crazy things the fighter can't even dream of. My favorite build is the Sacred Servant/Oath Against the Wyrm Paladin with Unsanctioned Knowledge (you could argue that Sacred Servant and Oath Against the Wyrm don't stack, but I disagree because it's awesome). Sacred Servant gets you a free domain (which can be used to FAR better effect than my choice), and selecting the Good domain means you get a Holy weapon basically any time you want, and access to all those spells, like... okay, well, the bonus spells suck. BUT, you gain temporary bonuses to caster level (if you pick the right traits, you can actually pump your Paladin caster level above your actually Character Level), extra Lay on Hands, and free help from outsiders.

But that's not even the best part. Oh, the spells you can get...

Oath Against he Wyrm, in addition to having some nifty abilities, gives you personal access to Enlarge Person, Fly, and STONESKIN. That's amazingly powerful. Combine with Unsanctioned Knowledge for invisibility, haste, displacement, blur, mirror image, or any of a number of other amazing spell choices, and suddenly those spells matter a LOT more, for an investment of NOT dumping Int, and loosing what, Channel Positive Energy? /raspberry


i know this is a dead thread, but the question about what my character would do at 20 vrs a deamon horde was bothering me.

after all is said and done my fighter would have a 27 will save, making him able to make any save on a roll of 2+ that would be the same as the pally. using the feat www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/hamatula-strike-combat in conjunction with a spear giving the Marilith the grappled condition making him unable to cast any spells unless hes able to make a CMB 59 opposed grapple (only on a 20) or a dc (10+40 something+ spell level) concentration check, and until he does.... its out of the fight. with him gone and the smaller fodder being picked off by our archer. i would ignore my combat patrol and focus on whirlwind for the shadow demons with my ghost touch weapon.

making sure to burn my channel for the 1d6 and good aligned cold iron weapon. at 2d8+1d6+40 i would essentually one hit... all of them. succubi would be grounded via my thrown spears,giving the grappled condition mid flight, and thats what i would contribute. a high ac, a high touch ac, aoe and spot removal. i finished the character if you have any questions.

oh and a scroll of mass spell immunity enervation. at that point the other players would have to contribute.

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