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Now in all fairness the Fighter is going to get more out of a suit of +4 fullplate and a heavy shield than the paladin will. I know the paladin can use those same shield feats but he will be feat starved for other things.
The main thing is the fighter doesn't need to take time to buff and his stuff is always on. Also the fighter class is very very versatile and can be used to come up with lots of builds. Strict DPR does not always win the battle but it does help. If you can trip, sunder, sicken, fancy foot work and a lot of other things then you can get the job done easily.
If you use tactics as a fighter then you can be a mean machine.
The Fighter will get more out of it those items - but not a LOT more. Likewise, a Paladin can take a +2 Keen Weapon and make it a +4 Keen Weapon of Speed with a standard action. And I stand by my statement that my level 17-20 Paladin will out DPR 95% of Fighters out there against non-evil foes and 100% of Fighters out there against evil ones.
I agree regarding the fighter's versatility and have made that point myself - between archetypes and various feat trees, a nearly infinite number of different Fighters can be made to fit an nearly infinite number of playstyles. That's a large part of its appeal. However the individual fighter is almost always built to specialize at one or two things (like Tripping or Sundering or pure damage output), so comparing 1 to 1, a particular Fighter's specialized abilities versus all that a Paladin can do, the Paladin still comes out way ahead. Some foes can't be Tripped or Sundered or even Stunned and every time you face a foe immune to your unique tricks, you're at a far greater disadvantage than a Paladin is against foes that can't be Smited.
And again - the Paladin offers so much that the fighter doesn't. With his spells, auras and healing he's actually a force multiplier. The Fighter can do what the fighter can do and... well, that's it.
I will take you up on that 20th level challenge. I will create a 20th level fighter with full on gear and not holding back on books.
25 point buy.
Not exactly I am saying if you start the combat off unbuffed. As you buff you get closer, but by the time you are caught up the fight is over, and it is not by a little. The fighter is ahead by 15 to 20 DPR unless someone made some crappy paladins in the DPR threads.Only 15-20 DPR?
At level 10 that is when looking at a CR 10 monster's HP that might be enough to stop the monster from getting to the next round and therefore making another full round attack against you.
20 more is also 50% more. That is a pretty good percentage.
A PvP will actually be won by tactics before numbers. Now if you both try to take on various high level monsters that can come at you in different ways. That is more telling.
Not exactly I am saying if you start the combat off unbuffed. As you buff you get closer, but by the time you are caught up the fight is over, and it is not by a little. The fighter is ahead by 15 to 20 DPR unless someone made some crappy paladins in the DPR threads.
You keep saying that, but I've yet to see it proven true.
I don't think you made a 'crappy Fighter' and below are the numbers comparing the Fighter you made and the Paladin I made.
Fighter
+18/+13/+8 that deals 1d10+26 (27-36) damage with a Crit on 17-20 (x2)
Paladin
+20/+11/+6 that deals 2d6+21+1d6 (24-39) damage with a Crit on 17-20 (x2)
Now, DPR is a stat that is only applicable over time - burst damage (i.e. the damage you can deal in 1 or 2 rounds) is something completely different. Even with me taking a round to 'activate' Divine Bond, I just don't see a sustained advantage of 15-20 DPR there.
A Man In Black: first Pinpoint Patty (paladin) entry 41.70 to 106.5 depending heavily on an evil target.
A Man In Black: first Two-Paw Pete (paladin) entry 31.40 to 99.13
Glade: first paladin archer entry 33.75 to 150.15 depending on evil targets
Jasin: first unnamed (paladin) entry 26.33 to 68.51
Jasin: second unnamed (paladin) entry 28.40 to 133.24
The second number is with smite activated.
A man in black: First Falchion Fred (fighter) entry was 59.25 to 60.11
A man in black: First Tempest Ted (fighter) entry was 53.46-53.60
A man in black: First Farshot Fallon (fighter) entry was 68.25
Dragonchess Player: first Shieldy Stan (fighter) entry 36.25375 to 53.525
A Man In Black: second tempest ted (fighter) entry 61.37
Zerothbase: first Elcurblian (revised falchion fred build) entry 71.66 DPR
Zerothbase: first Unarmerd Strike Ulysses (fighter) entry 47.80
Sarandosil: first Dagger Dan (fighter) entry 35.06
W0nkothesane: first Slinger Sam (fighter) entry 38.64 dpr
It's going to be a while before I am finished with this build so bare with me.
Take your time - work has me so I might not even get around to posting again today.
The sad thing is, we're doing all of this to find ONE THING (DPR vs. non-evil foes) that the Fighter might actually be able to exceed the Paladin at.
What I would do is do it using no buff.
Then do it with a different starting buff. That way you can also see which non-smite buff is the most helpful, assuming the answer is not already apparent.
What I would do is do it using no buff.
Then do it with a different starting buff. That way you can also see which non-smite buff is the most helpful, assuming the answer is not already apparent.
One of the biggest debates surrounding my character - and I think you were part of this discussion - is whether or not I can use Quicken SLA with Touch of Rage. The matter is undecided at the moment, meaning that I won't be using it in the comparison... and that's +10 attack and +10 damage to every attack activated as a swift action 12 rounds a day taken out of the equation. And of course, no Smiting.
I'll post the entire character later, but fully equipped, using the Divine Bond class feature and the Power of Giants Eldritch Heritage feat ability and nothing else - no spells, no other buffs, nothing - the character's standard attack, damage and armor class is listed below:
Attack: +42/+36/+31/+26/+21 (20% miss chance, 10' Reach)
+20/+20/+15/+10/+5 [BAB w/Speed] +14 [Strength] +5 [Weapon] +2 [Ring of Blinking] +1 [Ioun Stone]-0/-6/-6/-6/-6 [Power Attack]
Damage: 3d6+1d6+44, Crit on 17+ (Flaming Burst, Behead on Natural 20)
3d6 [Large Greatsword] +5 [Weapon] +1d6 [Flaming] +21 [Strength] +18 [Power Attack]
Armor Class: 41 (50% miss chance, 75% critical failure chance, DR 10/Evil)
10+9 [Fullplate] + 5 [enhancement] +3 [Dexterity] +5 [Ring] +5 [Amulet] +4 [Power of Giants]
The character was built as an Oath of Vengeance Paladin which lets him exchange Lay on Hands for additional Smites, so he took feats to support that rather than some sort of Neutral Fighter grudge match. Having said that, he has 1200 hit points of swift healing that he can apply in 60 point batches, basically giving him Fast Healing:60 for 20 rounds and four uses of the Hero's Defiance spell which will allow him to also use Lay on Hands as an immediate action should he fall below 0. Lay on Hands will also negate conditions like Shaken, Exhausted, etc. should critical feats somehow slip past my ridiculous saves.
If I take the time to cast Shield of the Dawnflower, the Fighter takes 1d6+15 points of damage every time he hits me. No Spell Resistance, no Saving Throw. That's bad news for someone who can't heal himself, and might have a Two-Weapon Fighter seriously re-thinking his career path. Cornugon Smash will have the Fighter making multiple Will saves every round and even one failure gives him -2 attack and -2 saves, probably for the rest of combat.
That's what I do at my weakest, with no evil to Smite and no teammates to buff.
If I use the Boots of Teleportation to Teleport away for 3 or 4 rounds to fully buff up and then Teleport back, its a whole other ball of wax - but I figure that's a little cheese, as he could do the same thing and try to wait out my buffs.
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What I would do is do it using no buff.
Then do it with a different starting buff. That way you can also see which non-smite buff is the most helpful, assuming the answer is not already apparent.
One of the biggest debates surrounding my character - and I think you were part of this discussion - is whether or not I can use Quicken SLA with Touch of Rage. The matter is undecided at the moment, meaning that I won't be using it in the comparison... and that's +10 attack and +10 damage to every attack activated as a swift action 12 rounds a day taken out of the equation. And of course, no Smiting.
I'll post the entire character later, but fully equipped, using the Divine Bond class feature and the Power of Giants Eldritch Heritage feat ability and nothing else - no spells, no other buffs, nothing - the character's standard attack, damage and armor class is listed below:
Attack: +42/+36/+31/+26/+21 (20% miss chance, 10' Reach)
+20/+20/+15/+10/+5 [BAB w/Speed] +14 [Strength] +5 [Weapon] +2 [Ring of Blinking] +1 [Ioun Stone]-0/-6/-6/-6/-6 [Power Attack]Damage: 3d6+1d6+44, Crit on 17+ (Flaming Burst, Behead on Natural 20)
3d6 [Large Greatsword] +5 [Weapon] +1d6 [Flaming] +21 [Strength] +18 [Power Attack]Armor Class: 41 (50% miss chance, 75% critical failure chance, DR 10/Evil)
10+9 [Fullplate] + 5 [enhancement] +3 [Dexterity] +5 [Ring] +5 [Amulet] +4 [Power of Giants]The character was built as an Oath of Vengeance Paladin which lets him exchange Lay on Hands for additional Smites, so he took feats to support that rather than some sort of Neutral Fighter grudge match. Having said that, he has 1200 hit points of swift healing that he can apply in 60 point batches, basically giving him Fast Healing:60 for 20 rounds and four uses of the Hero's Defiance spell which will allow him to also use Lay on Hands as an immediate action should he fall below 0. Lay on Hands will also negate conditions like Shaken, Exhausted, etc. should...
Where is your 5th attack coming from?
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Cornugon Smash will have the Fighter making multiple Will saves every round and even one failure gives him...
Sorry, Cornugon smash doesn't work like that. The DC is set for Demoralizing a target. The DC is 10+HD+Wis, which means that if you were trying to demoralize a target at level 20, you would have to make a DC 30 on an intimidate. Assuming that it has at least a 10 Wisdom. Not such a problem, seeing as one of your main stats is Charisma.
Where is your 5th attack coming from?
The weapon purchased is a +5 Vorpal Greatsword. Divine Bond further enhances it with the Speed, Keen and Flaming Burst properties - the 5th attack comes from Speed.
Sorry, Cornugon smash doesn't work like that. The DC is set for Demoralizing a target. The DC is 10+HD+Wis, which means that if you were trying to demoralize a target at level 20, you would have to make a DC 30 on an intimidate. Assuming that it has at least a 10 Wisdom. Not such a problem, seeing as one of your main stats is Charisma.
Cornugon Smash will have the Fighter making multiple Will saves every round and even one failure gives him...
Thank you for that clarification - so if my target is 20th level and has a wisdom of 18, then I would be making an Intimidate check against a DC 34 every time I struck him using Power Attack, correct?
Figure 20 ranks + Charisma bonus of +9 and then +4 from my Bully Trait (+3 class skill, +1 Trait bonus) means the lowest I could possibly roll would be a 34, correct?
So under that circumstance he'd pretty much be perma-Shaken?
Where is your 5th attack coming from?The weapon purchased is a +5 Vorpal Greatsword. Divine Bond further enhances it with the Speed, Keen and Flaming Burst properties - the 5th attack comes from Speed.
You cannot take weapon above +10 enhancement, even with temporary abilities. That's a +15 by my math.
They are not permanent, but they still count towards the +10. One of the devs clarified it. Many posters were not happy with the ruling. I will try to find the link.
+16, sorry. Thought you said Flaming.
Regardless, the ability provides no exception to the normal limitations on a magic item. It adds to existing bonuses, and is limited in the same way they are. I've not found the dev ruling on this, but I am looking for you... But I'm 99% certain this has been ruled on and you cannot use Bond to get a weapon above an effective +10.
They are not permanent, but they still count towards the +10. One of the devs clarified it. Many posters were not happy with the ruling. I will try to find the link.
If that is the ruling - and yes, I would not be happy about it because it screws the high-level Paladin hardcore - then I'd simply do away with the vorpal aspect of the weapon. I took that kind of on a lark anyway.
Figure a +3 Brilliant Energy Greatsword of Speed. No Vorpal, no Burst, no Keen and I'd take a -2 to attack and damage... but all of his armor and shield bonuses would be negated. He'd probably be better off with facing the Vorpal weapon to be honest.
AND there went the standard action I needed to activate Divine Bond...
In light of that ruling, here are the adjustments:
Attack: +40/+34/+29/+24/+19 (20% miss chance, 10' Reach, Negates all armor and shield bonuses)
+20/+20/+15/+10/+5 [BAB w/Speed] +14 [Strength] +3 [Weapon] +2 [Ring of Blinking] +1 [Ioun Stone]-0/-6/-6/-6/-6 [Power Attack]
Damage: 3d6+42, Crit on 19+
3d6 [Large Greatsword] +3 [Weapon] +21 [Strength] +18 [Power Attack]
Armor Class: 41 (50% miss chance, 75% critical failure chance, DR 10/Evil)
10+9 [Fullplate] + 5 [enhancement] +3 [Dexterity] +5 [Ring] +5 [Amulet] +4 [Power of Giants]
Not exactly I am saying if you start the combat off unbuffed. As you buff you get closer, but by the time you are caught up the fight is over, and it is not by a little. The fighter is ahead by 15 to 20 DPR unless someone made some crappy paladins in the DPR threads.Only 15-20 DPR?At level 10 that is when looking at a CR 10 monster's HP that might be enough to stop the monster from getting to the next round and therefore making another full round attack against you.
20 more is also 50% more. That is a pretty good percentage.
How effective is the Fighter at removing HP when he is crowd controlled, feared, charmed, dominated, entangled, dazed, confused, stunned, petrified, poisoned, diseased, cursed, or unconscious? What's the DPR when you're stunned? 0. Charmed/Dominated? Oh wait, you're negative damage per round, since you're now DPRing for the bad guys... :P
Last I checked, a Paladin is either outright immune or far more capable of avoiding all of those things, and being able to remove many if not all of them himself, often without burning significant actions.
He might be able to drop a critter a round earlier. He might not. For everything else, there's Paladin (or Ranger, and maybe Barbarian).
Something I was talking with a friend about... with the assumption that I can't take Quicken SLA to use with the SLA's offered by the Eldritch Heritage feats, that 19th level feat slot got filled with Radiant Charge.
At 20th level I have 20 uses of Lay on Hands - if I win initiative and make a Radiant Charge attack, I'll be attacking at +42 with a Brilliant Energy Weapon which is about as close to a guaranteed hit as I can come up with. That attack would deal 3d6+42+20d6+10 damage, or about 132 points of damage on average to open the fight, assuming of course that I don't crit. I wouldn't have any heals left, but then again he never had any to start with... if he didn't die in the opening round, he'd definitely die in the second.
A good fighter build will have good fort saves and decent will saves meaning than the has a better than 50% chance of not failing said saves. They are not paladin level saves, but they are dependable saves.
If a fighter can roll low enough to fail then so can the paladin for things he is not immune to anyway.
Fighter having poor will saves is a myth. Players that create fighters who don't cover their weak points have poor will saves. You and me both know a decent to good player does not walk around with a sucking will save. I am sure if you were to build a fighter you would also get that covered.
A good fighter build will have good fort saves and decent will saves meaning than the has a better than 50% chance of not failing said saves. They are not paladin level saves, but they are dependable saves.
If a fighter can roll low enough to fail then so can the paladin for things he is not immune to anyway.Fighter having poor will saves is a myth. Players that create fighters who don't cover their weak points have poor will saves. You and me both know a decent to good player does not walk around with a sucking will save. I am sure if you were to build a fighter you would also get that covered.
Its absolutely true that you never see a fighter (a decently made one) with low Will saves, but you do always see them having to shore those weaknesses up with feats and magical equipment. I think the point the other guy is making is that there is a HUGE difference between having a fairly dependable save and being immune to something.
And I want to take the opportunity to say something - while I don't think there's a Fighter alive who could stand up to this Paladin as built, and that makes my point about Paladins being more or less equal to Fighters in non-Smite situations... I really don't enjoy these sort of high-level comparisons. How the character plays 4th through 12th is really all I usually care about. That's when the characters are fun. Epic or even really high-level content is far less appealing in Pathfinder/3.5 than it is in 4th Ed in my opinion, and the fun has always been in the middling levels for me. You tend to become over-reliant on magical equipment (by necessity) and that's one of the reasons I gravitate towards Paladins - they are far less likely to need that crutch.
With nothing but a loin-cloth and a discarded wooden club in his hand, a 20th Paladin still has a potent customizable magic weapon, ridiculously high saves, spells, self-heals and condition removal, Damage Resistance, numerous immunities, can buff his teammates and beat the holy hell out of anything evil.
The quoted text is clearly and obviously referring to the numerical enhancement bonus, not the total effective enhancement bonus. The ability itself explicitly goes to +6.
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In light of that ruling, here are the adjustments:
Attack: +40/+34/+29/+24/+19 (20% miss chance, 10' Reach, Negates all armor and shield bonuses)
+20/+20/+15/+10/+5 [BAB w/Speed] +14 [Strength] +3 [Weapon] +2 [Ring of Blinking] +1 [Ioun Stone]-0/-6/-6/-6/-6 [Power Attack]Damage: 3d6+42, Crit on 19+
3d6 [Large Greatsword] +3 [Weapon] +21 [Strength] +18 [Power Attack]Armor Class: 41 (50% miss chance, 75% critical failure chance, DR 10/Evil)
10+9 [Fullplate] + 5 [enhancement] +3 [Dexterity] +5 [Ring] +5 [Amulet] +4 [Power of Giants]
Backup a moment. How are you able to add +3 dex to your AC? You haven't stated that your armor is mithral nor do you have Armor Training.
Backup a moment. How are you able to add +3 dex to your AC? You haven't stated that your armor is mithral nor do you have Armor Training.In light of that ruling, here are the adjustments:
Attack: +40/+34/+29/+24/+19 (20% miss chance, 10' Reach, Negates all armor and shield bonuses)
+20/+20/+15/+10/+5 [BAB w/Speed] +14 [Strength] +3 [Weapon] +2 [Ring of Blinking] +1 [Ioun Stone]-0/-6/-6/-6/-6 [Power Attack]Damage: 3d6+42, Crit on 19+
3d6 [Large Greatsword] +3 [Weapon] +21 [Strength] +18 [Power Attack]Armor Class: 41 (50% miss chance, 75% critical failure chance, DR 10/Evil)
10+9 [Fullplate] + 5 [enhancement] +3 [Dexterity] +5 [Ring] +5 [Amulet] +4 [Power of Giants]
I haven't listed ANY of my equipment, but yes, I did buy Mithril armor for the character when putting together a level 20 build.
to answer your other question (really would save space if you asked them all in one post), the weapon, as purchased, is a +3 Brilliant Energy Greatsword of Speed. I went ahead and paid the bill for the entire weapon since we have such a huge bank and I'm skipping use of the Divine Bond class feature. That'll save me a round of preparation (and a little whining because of it)... but again, I can customize a potent magical weapon out of almost nothing - the Fighter has to buy, beg, borrow or steal one and its NOT part of the class abilities.
If I wanted to, I could buy a +1 Greatsword of Speed and then boost it to +3 and give it the Brilliant Energy quality using Divine Bond. Or I could pick up an old discarded sword off the battlefield and make it a +5 Keen weapon.
You need to post your full build instead of bits and pieces.
Since the discussion was comnparing DPR, I didn't see the need to immediately post an entire level 1-20 build. I did say in an earlier post that I would post it later though. For now the relevant data is up, and its all legal, I assure you.
Just a shame some of us have to rely on equipment, eh?
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You need to post your full build instead of bits and pieces.Since the discussion was comnparing DPR, I didn't see the need to immediately post an entire level 1-20 build. I did say in an earlier post that I would post it later though. For now the relevant data is up, and its all legal, I assure you.
Just a shame some of us have to rely on equipment, eh?
Everyone relies on equipment so I don't understand your point.
I want to say it was Wraith Strike, but it could have been another poster who said, "Pathfinder is most fair when everything happens some of the time." That conversation inparticular I believe was about wizards occasionally losing their spell books.
Uh...
I didn't really read past page two, because the original premise vanished completely under "FIGHTER VS. PALADIN"...
But I am 80% certain that the quoted statement in the OP was mine.
Does anyone still want to discuss that?
Everyone relies on equipment so I don't understand your point.You need to post your full build instead of bits and pieces.Since the discussion was comnparing DPR, I didn't see the need to immediately post an entire level 1-20 build. I did say in an earlier post that I would post it later though. For now the relevant data is up, and its all legal, I assure you.
Just a shame some of us have to rely on equipment, eh?
I believe his point is that between divine bond and greater magic weapon, a paladin can have an effective +10 weapon on demand, for free.
Edit: Or not!
Everyone relies on equipment so I don't understand your point.You need to post your full build instead of bits and pieces.Since the discussion was comnparing DPR, I didn't see the need to immediately post an entire level 1-20 build. I did say in an earlier post that I would post it later though. For now the relevant data is up, and its all legal, I assure you.
Just a shame some of us have to rely on equipment, eh?
The point is that we're comparing class abilities and effectiveness, not who can figure out the best combination of equipment to buy... its particularly moot since we can use almost exactly the same equipment.
Fighters have a great attack bonus, yes? Guess what - I bought a Ring of Blinking which gives you a 50% chance to miss even if your attack bonus was +100 to hit. But that Ring doesn't have anything to do with being a Paladin. Fighters get Armor Training allowing them to really maximize their armor, correct? Guess what - I bought a Brilliant Energy Weapon that completely negates all armor and shield bonuses and all the feats you might have put into them. But that's equipment, something anyone could buy, NOT something that defines the character.
Of course, the fact that a Paladin can make a Brilliant Energy weapon is another story.
Like I mentioned earlier, it almost doesn't matter what your Fighter can do - round one if I win the initiative, I can hit you with a Radiant Charge and if it doesn't kill you, you'll be dead the next round. If you win initiative you can charge me instead... 50/50 chance you'll hit. Then on my turn I'll heal 60 points of the damage you might have done with your one attack and then hit you 4-5 times with a Brilliant Energy Greatsword and it'll still be over.
Just be glad you're not evil ;)
I want to say it was Wraith Strike, but it could have been another poster who said, "Pathfinder is most fair when everything happens some of the time." That conversation inparticular I believe was about wizards occasionally losing their spell books.Uh...
I didn't really read past page two, because the original premise vanished completely under "FIGHTER VS. PALADIN"...
But I am 80% certain that the quoted statement in the OP was mine.
Does anyone still want to discuss that?
Heh - this has been a pretty thorough thread-jack, hasn't it?
Sorry about that.
Does anyone still want to discuss that?
Heh - this has been a pretty thorough thread-jack, hasn't it?
Sorry about that.
There's nothing wrong with "no" for an answer if you guys are enjoying yourselves. Maybe Cranewings will start a new thread and link back if he wants some insight...
Does anyone still want to discuss that?There's nothing wrong with "no" for an answer if you guys are enjoying yourselves. Maybe Cranewings will start a new thread and link back if he wants some insight...Heh - this has been a pretty thorough thread-jack, hasn't it?
Sorry about that.
Its a valid topic certainly. We actually had a situation not long ago when a party Wizard's spellbook was stolen and it served as a great adventure hook. He wasn't thrilled, but its always good in my opinion to sometimes put characters at a disadvantage. It keeps them from becoming overly reliable on their 'stuff' to define them and gets them thinking outside the box.
I removed a post. Flag it, don't brag it.
It's interesting to note how many power builds are centered around the Eldritch Heritage feats, especially among classes that would invest in charisma naturally. I'm strongly thinking of banning those feats entirely from my home campaigns as I've seen just how severely these things are munchkined.
FWIW, the character was never really intended as a 'power build'. This wasn't a case of splashing for this or that, it was a natural evolution. He has a great backstory which I think I included above, and the intent was never to really get him any higher than 12th or so, but as things just fell into place (RP-wise), the character's build just emerged like a freaking symphony and he really became almost over-powered for our campaign. And that's WITH Quicken SLA still being up in the air.
Its become my 'go-to' power build though I actually feel bad for the character that he might be regarded as a munchkin. Paladins are tough period. Oath of Vengeance Paladins doubly so. Throw in something like the Eldritch Heritage feats - if done right - and things can definitely begin to spiral.
If I wanted to, I could buy a +1 Greatsword of Speed and then boost it to +3 and give it the Brilliant Energy quality using Divine Bond. Or I could pick up an old discarded sword off the battlefield and make it a +5 Keen weapon.
There's also the holy sword spell that Paladins get. Lets you turn any melee weapon into a +5 holy weapon on command. Behold as your mundane club becomes a +5 holy club. Did I mention you can get it in Wand format? It is a 4th level spell after-all. :P
FWIW, the character was never really intended as a 'power build'. This wasn't a case of splashing for this or that, it was a natural evolution. He has a great backstory which I think I included above, and the intent was never to really get him any higher than 12th or so, but as things just fell into place (RP-wise), the character's build just emerged like a freaking symphony and he really became almost over-powered for our campaign. And that's WITH Quicken SLA still being up in the air.
Its become my 'go-to' power build though I actually feel bad for the character that he might be regarded as a munchkin. Paladins are tough period. Oath of Vengeance Paladins doubly so. Throw in something like the Eldritch Heritage feats - if done right - and things can definitely begin to spiral.
Meh. Truthfully I wasn't considering any of the eldritch heritage stuff when I was considering Paladin. I don't actually see the orc heritage's +6 strength modifier being that great. It's +1 higher than the usual maximum (+5), and you can hit your +5 inherent modifier as early as 13th level. You're looking at +0.5 to your ability modifier over any other character. At 17th, that just isn't very useful unless your GM is being stingy with inherent mods.
Just a quick question, I have seen you mention the Orcish bloodline in combination with the feat Eldritch Heritage feat. I was wondering what book that bloodline was in, I cannot seem to find it in any of my books.
Meh. Truthfully I wasn't considering any of the eldritch heritage stuff when I was considering Paladin. I don't actually see the orc heritage's +6 strength modifier being that great. It's +1 higher than the usual maximum (+5), and you can hit your +5 inherent modifier as early as 13th level. You're looking at +0.5 to your ability modifier over any other character. At 17th, that just isn't very useful unless your GM is being stingy with inherent mods.
To be honest, it was the Power of Giants ability that I was eyeballing - +6 Strength, +4 Constitution, +4 Natural Armor, -2 Dexterity, Size increase to Large for minutes/day/level. That stacks with the +6 inherent Strength bonus, which of course stacks with the +6 enhancement bonuses from Belts.
FWIW, we run a VERY low magic campaign. its all about well-built, well-played characters, not what you can Monty-Hall from 'Ye Olde Towne Magic Shoppe'.
Just a quick question, I have seen you mention the Orcish bloodline in combination with the feat Eldritch Heritage feat. I was wondering what book that bloodline was in, I cannot seem to find it in any of my books.
Orcs of Golarion - I use a number of options from that book, including the Orc Bloodline for Sorcerers
Post the cheese. :)
The idea was to post a build that would see use in a real game, but I still want to see the cheese build.
Meh. Truthfully I wasn't considering any of the eldritch heritage stuff when I was considering Paladin. I don't actually see the orc heritage's +6 strength modifier being that great. It's +1 higher than the usual maximum (+5), and you can hit your +5 inherent modifier as early as 13th level. You're looking at +0.5 to your ability modifier over any other character. At 17th, that just isn't very useful unless your GM is being stingy with inherent mods.To be honest, it was the Power of Giants ability that I was eyeballing - +6 Strength, +4 Constitution, +4 Natural Armor, -2 Dexterity, Size increase to Large for minutes/day/level. That stacks with the +6 inherent Strength bonus, which of course stacks with the +6 enhancement bonuses from Belts.
FWIW, we run a VERY low magic campaign. its all about well-built, well-played characters, not what you can Monty-Hall from 'Ye Olde Towne Magic Shoppe'.
Fair enough. The spell-like abilities are pretty cool. You just mentioned a +6 strength, and I took it to mean the inherent modifier. And yes, it would seem a bit better in a very low magic campaign; but truly, even though I actively agree Paladin > Fighter in most cases, low magic favors them insanely over Fighters. Fighters have no magic, so they have to get their magic from magic items, while Paladins can supply some of their own.
Now I'm not 100% on what you mean by "very low magic". That seems to vary from person to person. I'm also not sure you know what Monty Haul means, as that implies goo-gobs of treasure, and has nothing to do with what you can buy in stores. Getting that vorpal sword and the holy avenger at 3rd level would be a great example of Monty Haul-ing. I just wanted to point out that any campaign that is low-magic is automatically biased against the Fighter just due to the simple mechanics of it.
On a side note, I wasn't assuming anything beyond the standard item availability. You cannot reliably obtain anything beyond a +2 weapon, +3 armor, +4 resistance, and +4 enhancement bonus items from a city in the core rules. Those all fall within the largest city price ranges. Anything else you will have to beg, borrow, steal, or craft yourself to obtain.
It is for this reason that Item Creation feats are so precious. If you want control over your party's gear, they are more or less required. Otherwise you're just collecting everyone else's scraps and selling them off for nothing (because there comes a point where money is only useful for crafting). If you cannot buy new items, then incoming gold becomes absolutely worthless. In fact, by high levels, having infinite money isn't even much of a concern, because once you have exceeded what you can reasonably buy in a town, it only comes to crafting.
As for the +5 inherent modifiers, those are obtainable within the core rules as early as 13th level, when you get planar binding and can make friends like these. Alternatively, a wizard can create 5 efreeti who grant wishes for him. So obtaining +2.5 mods isn't that difficult past 13th level.