paizo.com Recent Posts in Curious: Stealth Mechanicspaizo.com Recent Posts in Curious: Stealth Mechanics2012-03-02T04:58:46Z2012-03-02T04:58:46ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Curious: Stealth MechanicsDeciusBrutus (alias of Daniel Powell 318)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nptz&page=4?Curious-Stealth-Mechanics#1872013-01-29T22:22:54Z2013-01-29T22:22:54Z<p>Imagine that you are at the table with a large (100+) group of anonymous strangers. Everyone has a screen, such that only they can see their dice rolls. </p>
<p>The DM says "Only people who make a perception DC 20 check see this rogue sneaking up behind you." All of the players of wizards have their character cast a fireball including the rogue, despite most of them not having a good perception check. </p>
<p>The typical alternative is for the DM (Server) to do all of the 'rolls' and evaluate everything that happens, and only communicate to the player (client) information that the character has. This means not putting the mini on the table unless somebody sees the character, rather than telling the players that they can't see it.</p>Imagine that you are at the table with a large (100+) group of anonymous strangers. Everyone has a screen, such that only they can see their dice rolls.
The DM says "Only people who make a perception DC 20 check see this rogue sneaking up behind you." All of the players of wizards have their character cast a fireball including the rogue, despite most of them not having a good perception check.
The typical alternative is for the DM (Server) to do all of the 'rolls' and evaluate everything...DeciusBrutus (alias of Daniel Powell 318)2013-01-29T22:22:54ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Curious: Stealth MechanicsKitNyxhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nptz&page=4?Curious-Stealth-Mechanics#1862013-01-27T17:14:05Z2013-01-27T17:14:05Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Nihimon wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">KitNyx wrote:</div><blockquote>As far as the unhacked client and the 3rd party software which sends the information to a hacked client...make the information the server sends to the client egocentric to the client...as opposed to the more traditional allocentric. Hacking the client to get that data will give you false information...not worth the hack.</blockquote>If the "non-hacked" client is getting enough information to show the player an accurate picture of the world, and the "hacked" client receives all the same information that the "non-hacked" client receives, then how do you stop the "hacked" client from also showing the player an accurate picture of the world? </blockquote><p>True, my suggestion would have just made it much more computationally intensive to get that accurate picture...not impossible. But, I guess my lack of understanding stems from my inability to comprehend how an "image" displayed by the client that is not verified by the server is 1) non-detectable (for hack ban) and 2) able to be interacted with, and if it is not interactive, who cares?Nihimon wrote:KitNyx wrote:As far as the unhacked client and the 3rd party software which sends the information to a hacked client...make the information the server sends to the client egocentric to the client...as opposed to the more traditional allocentric. Hacking the client to get that data will give you false information...not worth the hack.
If the "non-hacked" client is getting enough information to show the player an accurate picture of the world, and the "hacked" client receives all...KitNyx2013-01-27T17:14:05ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Curious: Stealth Mechanicslucky7 (alias of Elizabeth Brasell)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nptz&page=4?Curious-Stealth-Mechanics#1852013-01-27T16:32:16Z2013-01-27T16:32:16Z<p>Shadow thing should work, but only at a distance. In, say, Dishonored, cover was a large part of it. And maybe you could throw a rock to distract monsters?</p>Shadow thing should work, but only at a distance. In, say, Dishonored, cover was a large part of it. And maybe you could throw a rock to distract monsters?lucky7 (alias of Elizabeth Brasell)2013-01-27T16:32:16ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Curious: Stealth MechanicsNihimonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nptz&page=4?Curious-Stealth-Mechanics#1842013-01-27T16:25:36Z2013-01-27T16:25:36Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">KitNyx wrote:</div><blockquote>As far as the unhacked client and the 3rd party software which sends the information to a hacked client...make the information the server sends to the client egocentric to the client...as opposed to the more traditional allocentric. Hacking the client to get that data will give you false information...not worth the hack.</blockquote><p>If the "non-hacked" client is getting enough information to show the player an accurate picture of the world, and the "hacked" client receives all the same information that the "non-hacked" client receives, then how do you stop the "hacked" client from also showing the player an accurate picture of the world?KitNyx wrote:As far as the unhacked client and the 3rd party software which sends the information to a hacked client...make the information the server sends to the client egocentric to the client...as opposed to the more traditional allocentric. Hacking the client to get that data will give you false information...not worth the hack.
If the "non-hacked" client is getting enough information to show the player an accurate picture of the world, and the "hacked" client receives all the same...Nihimon2013-01-27T16:25:36ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Curious: Stealth MechanicsKeovarhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nptz&page=4?Curious-Stealth-Mechanics#1832013-01-27T04:59:28Z2013-01-27T04:59:28Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Nihimon wrote:</div><blockquote>Yes, this has been completely resolved, and very satisfactorily.</blockquote><p>If that's the case, I guess that could rescue meaningful darkness to some extent. People could still hack their client to make everything look like daylight, but if there's a 25%, 50%, or 75% miss chance for any attack at a sufficiently stealthed character when mad by an insufficiently perceptive one, that could go a long way. Characters in stealth could also be given temporary evasion or improved evasion to cut down on AoE attacks being used to hit them without an attack roll.Nihimon wrote:Yes, this has been completely resolved, and very satisfactorily.
If that's the case, I guess that could rescue meaningful darkness to some extent. People could still hack their client to make everything look like daylight, but if there's a 25%, 50%, or 75% miss chance for any attack at a sufficiently stealthed character when mad by an insufficiently perceptive one, that could go a long way. Characters in stealth could also be given temporary evasion or improved evasion to cut...Keovar2013-01-27T04:59:28ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Curious: Stealth MechanicsKitNyxhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nptz&page=4?Curious-Stealth-Mechanics#1822013-01-26T23:14:22Z2013-01-26T23:14:22Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Nihimon wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Drake Brimstone wrote:</div><blockquote>Send False information to Clients that a Non-Hacked Client would ignore.</blockquote>With respect to detecting whether or not the player is aware of the hidden object, if the players are being banned for directly acting on that information, then they will simply act on it indirectly, by positioning themselves appropriately (or a host of other things that they'll think of).</blockquote><p>I have no problems with this...it simulates party communication when some members of the party can see a target and others can't. Even those who cannot can see/read other body language and perhaps even basic handsigns...you know like /point.
<p>As far as the unhacked client and the 3rd party software which sends the information to a hacked client...make the information the server sends to the client egocentric to the client...as opposed to the more traditional allocentric. Hacking the client to get that data will give you false information...not worth the hack.</p>Nihimon wrote:Drake Brimstone wrote:Send False information to Clients that a Non-Hacked Client would ignore.
With respect to detecting whether or not the player is aware of the hidden object, if the players are being banned for directly acting on that information, then they will simply act on it indirectly, by positioning themselves appropriately (or a host of other things that they'll think of).I have no problems with this...it simulates party communication when some members of the party...KitNyx2013-01-26T23:14:22ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Curious: Stealth MechanicsNihimonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nptz&page=4?Curious-Stealth-Mechanics#1812013-01-26T15:34:55Z2013-01-26T15:34:55Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Drake Brimstone wrote:</div><blockquote>Send False information to Clients that a Non-Hacked Client would ignore.</blockquote><p>The hacked and the non-hacked Client receive the same information. If the non-hacked Client is able to determine that something should be ignored, then the hacked Client has enough information to make the same determination.
<p>With respect to detecting whether or not the player is aware of the hidden object, if the players are being banned for directly acting on that information, then they will simply act on it indirectly, by positioning themselves appropriately (or a host of other things that they'll think of).</p>
<p>I fully support brainstorming ideas to try to solve this problem, so please don't let these critiques stifle the discussion.</p>Drake Brimstone wrote:Send False information to Clients that a Non-Hacked Client would ignore.
The hacked and the non-hacked Client receive the same information. If the non-hacked Client is able to determine that something should be ignored, then the hacked Client has enough information to make the same determination. With respect to detecting whether or not the player is aware of the hidden object, if the players are being banned for directly acting on that information, then they will...Nihimon2013-01-26T15:34:55ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Curious: Stealth MechanicsDrake Brimstonehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nptz&page=4?Curious-Stealth-Mechanics#1802013-01-26T05:32:45Z2013-01-26T05:32:45Z<p>A few things I've noticed that some people may have missed or otherwise aren’t aware of.</p>
<p>If Client A knows where an PC/NPC is then a 3rd party utility can extract the location information from memory, transmit it to some one else and have that information given to a hacked client to display regardless of if they should know where that PC/NPC is.</p>
<p>You CAN'T stop this. There is no way to prevent it short of all calculations, including graphical calculations, being performed Server Side and all you receive is a Video Stream from the server. All encryption can be broken or circumvented.</p>
<p>Telling a Client that the PC/NPC is stealthed and should use a Camo'd Model is useless because a Hacked Client can substitute a Glowing Purple Dinosaur for the Camo'd Model if they want to. Again, the only way to prevent this is for the Graphics to be processed Server Side and the Client receives a Video Stream.</p>
<p>Oh, and for those that say, Ok, just go with the Video Stream then. Video Streams are Bandwidth Intensive. Bandwidth gets expensive when you need enough for thousands of simultaneous outgoing Video Feeds.</p>
<p>That said, instead of Stopping the Hacks, perhaps more effort should be put forth to Detect the Hacks and Ban accounts that use them. This would require more processing power on the Server Side (You can't Trust ANYTHING the Client tells you so don't bother putting checks in place there.) but processing power is cheap compared to Bandwidth.</p>
<p>Ideas Include</p>
<p>Send False information to Clients that a Non-Hacked Client would ignore. If a character responds to what should be an Invisible Intangible Object, their client is hacked, Ban Them.</p>
<p>Keep track of how long Stealthed Players have been hidden from other Players. If a the Stealthed Player is targeted with a spell/ability that requires actual Targeting (not AOE) by some one who isn't supposed to be able to see them, check how long they couldn't see them. If it's too long (more then a couple seconds at most) they are using a hack that gives them location information they aren’t supposed to have, Ban Them.</p>
<p>With the above, has only one person been able to detect him within a "reasonable" time? He's using a hack to send the other guy the information, Ban Him too.</p>
<p>You think Banning is too harsh? I don't, actually, because of some of the stupid stuff some big businesses managed to get into the DMCA, don't just Ban Them, Sue them into the ground for illegally accessing the licensed code.</p>
<p>Continued "bad" behavior tends to be the result of a lack of meaningful consequences, so you have to put in consequences that are severe enough to keep people from being tempted to do it.</p>A few things I've noticed that some people may have missed or otherwise aren’t aware of.
If Client A knows where an PC/NPC is then a 3rd party utility can extract the location information from memory, transmit it to some one else and have that information given to a hacked client to display regardless of if they should know where that PC/NPC is.
You CAN'T stop this. There is no way to prevent it short of all calculations, including graphical calculations, being performed Server Side and all...Drake Brimstone2013-01-26T05:32:45ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Curious: Stealth MechanicsValandurhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nptz&page=4?Curious-Stealth-Mechanics#1792013-01-25T23:26:45Z2013-01-25T23:26:45Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Jameow wrote:</div><blockquote> personally, I;d like it to be similar to Darkfall in that respect, but with more skills that rather than making you invisible, lower your chances of detection and actuallymake it more difficult to see you when you're in cover/shadow etc (which takes it further than darkfall) I think someone popping out in the middle of the road to attack you is a bit silly. </blockquote><p>I would love to see a blend of standard MMO stealth, and say Thief (the game) type stealth. Where a thief stealthed in a shadowy area, or behind an object is considerably harder to detect then when sneaking around an area with no cover, a well lit area etc..Jameow wrote:personally, I;d like it to be similar to Darkfall in that respect, but with more skills that rather than making you invisible, lower your chances of detection and actuallymake it more difficult to see you when you're in cover/shadow etc (which takes it further than darkfall) I think someone popping out in the middle of the road to attack you is a bit silly.
I would love to see a blend of standard MMO stealth, and say Thief (the game) type stealth. Where a thief stealthed in a...Valandur2013-01-25T23:26:45ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Curious: Stealth MechanicsBlaeringr (alias of Ghoste)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nptz&page=4?Curious-Stealth-Mechanics#1782013-01-25T22:39:44Z2013-01-25T22:39:44Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Nihimon wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Spyritwind wrote:</div><blockquote>Is this point still in contention with those that would know, or has this point been reasonably satisfied?</blockquote><p>From <a href="http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pehu&page=2?No-Useless-Class-Archetypes#52" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">No Useless Class Archetypes</a>:
</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Stephen Cheney wrote:</div><blockquote><p> There will absolutely be Stealth. </p>
<p>As Ryan pointed out, we just can't put any of the calculations on the client, it'll all have to be server-based. We'd like to do some more granular things with it than is normal for MMOs, but we need to get deeper into our server tech to work out what's possible. </blockquote><p>Note the "Goblinworks Game Designer" title next to Stephen's name :)
<p>Yes, this has been completely resolved, and very satisfactorily.
<br />
</blockquote><p>Thanks for catching that post, Nihimon. I'm very happy to read that.Nihimon wrote:Spyritwind wrote:Is this point still in contention with those that would know, or has this point been reasonably satisfied?
From No Useless Class Archetypes:
Stephen Cheney wrote:There will absolutely be Stealth.
As Ryan pointed out, we just can't put any of the calculations on the client, it'll all have to be server-based. We'd like to do some more granular things with it than is normal for MMOs, but we need to get deeper into our server tech to work out what's possible.
...Blaeringr (alias of Ghoste)2013-01-25T22:39:44ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Curious: Stealth MechanicsDariohttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nptz&page=4?Curious-Stealth-Mechanics#1772013-01-25T15:36:48Z2013-01-25T15:36:48Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sunwader wrote:</div><blockquote> I guess calculated on the server would be like DM rolling the dice hehe </blockquote><p>That's actually a fair analogy. If you tell your players "Hey, roll a spot check. Nope, you didn't see anything.", unless you're in the habit of doing it randomly, they'll know there's something around to spot even though they failed.
<p>Same way, if you put the calculations on the client, it can be hacked to tell the players what they're not supposed to know.</p>Sunwader wrote:I guess calculated on the server would be like DM rolling the dice hehe
That's actually a fair analogy. If you tell your players "Hey, roll a spot check. Nope, you didn't see anything.", unless you're in the habit of doing it randomly, they'll know there's something around to spot even though they failed. Same way, if you put the calculations on the client, it can be hacked to tell the players what they're not supposed to know.Dario2013-01-25T15:36:48ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Curious: Stealth MechanicsSunwaderhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nptz&page=4?Curious-Stealth-Mechanics#1762013-01-25T15:22:48Z2013-01-25T15:22:48Z<p>I guess calculated on the server would be like DM rolling the dice hehe</p>I guess calculated on the server would be like DM rolling the dice heheSunwader2013-01-25T15:22:48ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Curious: Stealth MechanicsNihimonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nptz&page=4?Curious-Stealth-Mechanics#1752013-01-25T22:39:10Z2013-01-25T15:04:52Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Spyritwind wrote:</div><blockquote>Is this point still in contention with those that would know, or has this point been reasonably satisfied?</blockquote><p>From <a href="http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pehu&page=2?No-Useless-Class-Archetypes#52" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">No Useless Class Archetypes</a>:
</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Stephen Cheney wrote:</div><blockquote><p> There will absolutely be Stealth. </p>
<p>As Ryan pointed out, we just can't put any of the calculations on the client, it'll all have to be server-based. We'd like to do some more granular things with it than is normal for MMOs, but we need to get deeper into our server tech to work out what's possible. </blockquote><p>Note the "Goblinworks Game Designer" title next to Stephen's name :)
<p>Yes, this has been completely resolved, and very satisfactorily.</p>Spyritwind wrote:Is this point still in contention with those that would know, or has this point been reasonably satisfied?
From No Useless Class Archetypes:
Stephen Cheney wrote:There will absolutely be Stealth.
As Ryan pointed out, we just can't put any of the calculations on the client, it'll all have to be server-based. We'd like to do some more granular things with it than is normal for MMOs, but we need to get deeper into our server tech to work out what's possible.
Note the...Nihimon2013-01-25T15:04:52ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Curious: Stealth MechanicsSpyritwindhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nptz&page=4?Curious-Stealth-Mechanics#1742013-01-25T08:25:53Z2013-01-25T08:25:53Z<p>A couple of posters have proposed that implementing a deeper stealth system would not cause a significant stress on the client (I'm a non techie so I hope I used the correct word) if done/programmed/set up properly. As some one that has no idea the arguments were convincing, but that may be hopeful bias on my part.</p>
<p>Is this point still in contention with those that would know, or has this point been reasonably satisfied?</p>
<p>If at least reasonably satisfied by working professionals in the field what would cause GW to not use such an approach?</p>
<p>For the purpose of the last question I'm not taking in to account the over worked, underpaid and possibly off shored coders, or what not. I mean what would cause them to not at least take this approach; regardless of whether or not they did a good job of it. (Perhaps due to over worked, underpaid, etc. etc., but that would affect the whole project, not just this one thing)</p>
<p>Would it actually, really cost significantly more money to have the proper gear and program's to handle this? The proposed argument seems to say no unless they are working with pretty sub par stuff.</p>
<p>Is it because those in charge of the decisions of such things don't know it's possible? (Even at the risk at sounding rude I'm just wondering if it's possible)</p>
<p>Maybe they just "don't want to do things that way, because that's not the way they are done".</p>
<p>I dunno.</p>
<p>I am very happy to see that stealth will definitely be in the game (confirmed on another thread). I certainly hope it will have at least reasonable impact on pvp game play as well as pve.</p>
<p>If not then this will be the first fantasy mmo rpg I've encountered that does not to the best of memory and knowledge. That would be sad serious weak sauce.</p>
<p>Stealth is the primary defining ability for a rogue/thief/assassin type character. With out stealth it's like saying fighters are great, but they can't take a hit very well. Wizards? Yeah they can cast a lot of spells but lighting, or fireballs? Nah.</p>
<p>I like GW2 stealth. It's not very traditional, but it's fun. WoW had the most broken stealth in some ways. It was eternal and a whole battle could go on around you and no one would notice you. I think Rift was the same way if I remember right. I was fine with Warhammer Online's stealth even though it was more limiting. I didn't play a sneak in Age of Conan very often, but it seemed standard. Blah, blah, blah.</p>
<p>Stealth is doable. Every one else has done it. From this thread it seems like it could be done better for pvp though.</p>A couple of posters have proposed that implementing a deeper stealth system would not cause a significant stress on the client (I'm a non techie so I hope I used the correct word) if done/programmed/set up properly. As some one that has no idea the arguments were convincing, but that may be hopeful bias on my part.
Is this point still in contention with those that would know, or has this point been reasonably satisfied?
If at least reasonably satisfied by working professionals in the field...Spyritwind2013-01-25T08:25:53ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Curious: Stealth MechanicsJameowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nptz&page=4?Curious-Stealth-Mechanics#1732013-01-24T08:17:45Z2013-01-24T08:17:45Z<p>personally, I;d like it to be similar to Darkfall in that respect, but with more skills that rather than making you invisible, lower your chances of detection and actuallymake it more difficult to see you when you're in cover/shadow etc (which takes it further than darkfall) I think someone popping out in the middle of the road to attack you is a bit silly.</p>personally, I;d like it to be similar to Darkfall in that respect, but with more skills that rather than making you invisible, lower your chances of detection and actuallymake it more difficult to see you when you're in cover/shadow etc (which takes it further than darkfall) I think someone popping out in the middle of the road to attack you is a bit silly.Jameow2013-01-24T08:17:45ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Curious: Stealth MechanicsGreedaloxhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nptz&page=4?Curious-Stealth-Mechanics#1722013-01-24T06:31:37Z2013-01-24T06:31:37Z<p>Yea, I hope the devs revisit this topic. I cant help but think stealth can exist in some form, maybe even only PvE.</p>
<p>Also I asked this question in another post, but w/o stealth why should I be rogue artifact, especially if I can just be a rogue-like ranger with UMD for trapfinding/disarming?</p>Yea, I hope the devs revisit this topic. I cant help but think stealth can exist in some form, maybe even only PvE.
Also I asked this question in another post, but w/o stealth why should I be rogue artifact, especially if I can just be a rogue-like ranger with UMD for trapfinding/disarming?Greedalox2013-01-24T06:31:37ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Curious: Stealth MechanicsRafkinhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nptz&page=4?Curious-Stealth-Mechanics#1712013-01-21T23:45:24Z2013-01-21T23:41:24Z<p>Plenty of mmo's have stealth so I think this is weak excuse from GW. SWtoR, Rift, doesn't EVE even have a version of stealth?</p>
<p>I play those 3 examples and there is no rampant stealth hacking. I'm sure its happening but not so much that its ruining fair play and certainly not enough to justify leaving stealth out of the game.</p>Plenty of mmo's have stealth so I think this is weak excuse from GW. SWtoR, Rift, doesn't EVE even have a version of stealth?
I play those 3 examples and there is no rampant stealth hacking. I'm sure its happening but not so much that its ruining fair play and certainly not enough to justify leaving stealth out of the game.Rafkin2013-01-21T23:41:24ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Curious: Stealth MechanicsSebastian Hirschhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nptz&page=4?Curious-Stealth-Mechanics#1702013-01-21T02:55:07Z2013-01-21T02:55:07Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Being wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Stealthed character should look like a shadow and not be targetable, no name over head, nothing obtrusive. If night, unlit interior, or underground pseudodarkness the rest of the floor is shadowed too.</p>
<p>Or so I think. </blockquote><p>Nice idea, but what if a character has sufficient Perception to detect the invisible creature (relatively recent rule change the stealth rules IRRC) he might not clearly see who or what it is, but he knows where it is and can attack/target it.
</p>
What if, a character can detect the location of an effectively invisible creature, by detecting the magic items/auras on him/her/it (in pen and paper a simple <i>detect magic</i> cantrip can show you the location)?</p>Being wrote:Stealthed character should look like a shadow and not be targetable, no name over head, nothing obtrusive. If night, unlit interior, or underground pseudodarkness the rest of the floor is shadowed too.
Or so I think.
Nice idea, but what if a character has sufficient Perception to detect the invisible creature (relatively recent rule change the stealth rules IRRC) he might not clearly see who or what it is, but he knows where it is and can attack/target it.
What if, a character...Sebastian Hirsch2013-01-21T02:55:07ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Curious: Stealth MechanicsBeinghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nptz&page=4?Curious-Stealth-Mechanics#1692013-01-21T01:30:49Z2013-01-21T01:30:49Z<p>Stealthed character should look like a shadow and not be targetable, no name over head, nothing obtrusive. If night, unlit interior, or underground pseudodarkness the rest of the floor is shadowed too.</p>
<p>Or so I think.</p>Stealthed character should look like a shadow and not be targetable, no name over head, nothing obtrusive. If night, unlit interior, or underground pseudodarkness the rest of the floor is shadowed too.
Or so I think.Being2013-01-21T01:30:49ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Curious: Stealth MechanicsBlaeringr (alias of Ghoste)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nptz&page=4?Curious-Stealth-Mechanics#1682013-01-21T01:27:31Z2013-01-21T01:27:31Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Kusuriurite wrote:</div><blockquote> How about we just have camouflage attached to the player using stealth instead of invisablity? </blockquote><p>Is the character's name displayed above their head? Can you tab target things the player at the keyboard hasn't noticed yet?Kusuriurite wrote:How about we just have camouflage attached to the player using stealth instead of invisablity?
Is the character's name displayed above their head? Can you tab target things the player at the keyboard hasn't noticed yet?Blaeringr (alias of Ghoste)2013-01-21T01:27:31ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Curious: Stealth MechanicsJameowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nptz&page=4?Curious-Stealth-Mechanics#1672013-01-21T01:05:13Z2013-01-21T01:05:13Z<p>My personal preference for stealth (and it has nothing to do with any ruleset, it's just my preference) is that hiding is a case of not being invisible, but easy to miss because you're wearing shadowy colours in a shadowy corner, or are moving without sound so you are not noticed.</p>
<p>I prefer things not to see things behind them (but can hear them) so something walking away from you or past you while you stand still in shadow doesn't notice you, if you're dancing and hopping, they might see you, if you're walking along, they might see you. If you're crouched behind a pillar, they might not. </p>
<p>I dislike the disappear and pop out of nowhere style stealth/hiding... Except where it is magic like melding with shadow or invisibility. But it's not an issue I have a particularly strong stake in.</p>My personal preference for stealth (and it has nothing to do with any ruleset, it's just my preference) is that hiding is a case of not being invisible, but easy to miss because you're wearing shadowy colours in a shadowy corner, or are moving without sound so you are not noticed.
I prefer things not to see things behind them (but can hear them) so something walking away from you or past you while you stand still in shadow doesn't notice you, if you're dancing and hopping, they might see...Jameow2013-01-21T01:05:13ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Curious: Stealth Mechanicslucky7 (alias of Elizabeth Brasell)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nptz&page=4?Curious-Stealth-Mechanics#1662013-01-21T00:24:06Z2013-01-21T00:24:06Z<p>Having a crouch thing would work, and sneak attack could be like a critical hit.</p>Having a crouch thing would work, and sneak attack could be like a critical hit.lucky7 (alias of Elizabeth Brasell)2013-01-21T00:24:06ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Curious: Stealth MechanicsKusuriuritehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nptz&page=4?Curious-Stealth-Mechanics#1652013-01-21T00:04:07Z2013-01-21T00:04:07Z<p>How about we just have camouflage attached to the player using stealth instead of invisablity?</p>How about we just have camouflage attached to the player using stealth instead of invisablity?Kusuriurite2013-01-21T00:04:07ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Curious: Stealth MechanicsPinosaur (alias of Piney)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nptz&page=4?Curious-Stealth-Mechanics#1642013-01-21T00:02:58Z2013-01-21T00:02:58Z<p>Just use a honeypot. Occasionally, when someone stealths, spawn a 'twin' with •infinite• stealth. Anyone whose client is rendering/interacting with that 'twin' is a cheater.
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Point is, it takes less computing to catch cheaters than to preclude them.</p>Just use a honeypot. Occasionally, when someone stealths, spawn a 'twin' with *infinite* stealth. Anyone whose client is rendering/interacting with that 'twin' is a cheater.
Point is, it takes less computing to catch cheaters than to preclude them.Pinosaur (alias of Piney)2013-01-21T00:02:58ZRe: Forums: Pathfinder Online: Curious: Stealth MechanicsGrumpyMelhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nptz&page=4?Curious-Stealth-Mechanics#1632012-05-16T18:36:19Z2012-05-16T18:36:19Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">DeciusBrutus wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Buri wrote:</div><blockquote> Now that is something the client can do, thankfully. If the target disappears, and you try to fire off an ability, you either simply fail or get a message saying you can't use an ability without a target (unless it's an AoE, self casting etc) because the client honestly can't find the target information as it's stopped receiving information about the target. </blockquote><p>No, I mean when the client says "Shoot an arrow at actor #534, when actor #534 is hidden from the player." It's a cheat detection/prevention thing, to cover cases where clients share information out-of-band, or where an edited client simply allows random attacks.
<p>Of course, it also occurs when the client attacks someone just as they go into hiding, such that the attack was legal when the player made it but illegal when the server received it. Since there is no way to know how long the target has been hidden from the attacker, you have to assume the legal edge case, and you have to reject the attack as invalid.</p>
<p>Even if the client does communicate every change in target to the server, there's no way for the server to know if the target is hidden or not when you target it. </blockquote><p>You are correct, but the server would have to do a varity of checks anyway to process such actions. Not just to prevent obvious exploitation but actualy process the attack.... and it already has to pull a variety of data elements from both the attacker and target objects. At it's most basic level, asking it to perform a stealth check is a minimal imposition of additional processing cost.
<p>Lets look at some of the things the server already would have to do in order to resolve an attack.....</p>
<p>- Check to Determine whether the target is within effective range of the attackers weapon...."Target is 500 ft distant, therefore out of melee range of your dagger"</p>
<p>- Check to Determine whether the target is "legal" in terms of hostility and initiate some action if not. Remember with the Justice/Bounty/PvP systems that Ryan was talking about the game already needs to do some tracking of the relationship between any 2 players to determine what to do about the justice system/flagging etc during attacks.... "Warning your Guild is not at War with Target, you will be flagged for assault if you attack them."</p>
<p>- Process the results of the attack. "You hit target for 20 HP".</p>
<p>At it's most basic implimentation....ALL you are adding to this is a simple arithmatic check comparing the Attackers Current Stealth Value when compared to the Targets Current Perception Value to see if the attacker can "detect" the target...... "Attackers Perception = 6, Targets Stealth = 5, is 6 > 5 ? If yes, then target is valid."</p>
<p>Note you are ALREADY pulling data elements from both target and attacker objects....your just pulling 1 additional value in the data set from those objects and doing 1 addition logical comparison.</p>
<p>Under a very basic implimentation....no need to maintain some sort of complicated data matrix of the stealth relationship between 2 characters that you constantly update...</p>
<p>You maintain Current Stealth and Current Perception values additional data element associated with character objects and just update those values as neccesary whenever conditions justifiy. For example you could do a "skill check" every minute or two and update the Stealth/Perception values with a RNG offset based on that.....and you could adjust the values as conditions which would modify them occur (i.e. Character has moved into the "Shadowy Forest of Doom" area, modify Stealth by +5. Night falls, modify stealth by +5 ). Then you just do a logical check of stealth vs perception as part of any function which logicaly involves stealth.</p>
<p>You can play with the frequency of checks, modifiers and updates to those values to get a resource utilization that is supportable for your achetecture/hardware.</p>DeciusBrutus wrote:Buri wrote: Now that is something the client can do, thankfully. If the target disappears, and you try to fire off an ability, you either simply fail or get a message saying you can't use an ability without a target (unless it's an AoE, self casting etc) because the client honestly can't find the target information as it's stopped receiving information about the target.
No, I mean when the client says "Shoot an arrow at actor #534, when actor #534 is hidden from the...GrumpyMel2012-05-16T18:36:19Z