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There is a lot of discussion about how the rogue is seen as rather lackluster. I think there are several reasons. I'm going to list a few then go into my suggestions to help the rogue.
1. The rogue used to be the main skill-based character. This is not so much the case now that the bard and many other classes have a lot of skill points and magic to make up the gap.
2. The rogue used to be seen as a heavy damage dealer. This has only ever bee partially true and with pathfinder's minor changes, it has become even less so.
3. The rogue is a challenging class to build and play. The rogue has some MAD problems and additionally, many feel that giving the rogue a huge dexterity will automatically make him great but this is far from the truth. To get the most out of your rogue, you need to really exploit all your options.
With the above listed, I ask "if the rogue is no longer all about skills or all about damage or if traps just don't come up often in your game, then what can it be?"
I have an idea.
Y'know how the bard kind of helps the whole team by providing bonuses and healing and other boosts? What if we made the rogue to be an inverse of that? The rogue's job could be to hinder the opposition. Not just through damage, though that would be a way to do it, but just be being there some time.
Think about it. The rogue could be there to help by making the opponents less effective instead of making his allies more effective. The end result is the same but the approach is different. Let's try by applying some minimal changes to the rogue by expanding two of its abilities.
Trapfinding is now an aspect of an ability called Rogue Training and trap sense is an aspect of an ability called Rogue Senses
Rogue Training: Rogues strive to learn a great deal about how to perceive and exploit weaknesses. This training manifests in two ways.
Hindering Strike: whenever a rogue attacks a target, the rogue can choose to apply a distraction penalty to that target's armor class, attacks or damage. The penalty is equal to half the rogue's level (minimum 1) and lasts for one round plus one additional round for each point of bonus the rogue has in intelligence. Only one trait can be targeted or affected at a time, even if multiple rogues strike the same target though the trait can be changed with each additional strike. At 4th level, the penalty can be applied to saved but it is divided by half (round down). At 6th level, the penalty can be applied to all saves but it is divided by three (round down).
Trapfinding (unchanged): A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.
Rogue Senses: Life for a rogue is always full of danger and rogues make an effort to keep on their toes, get in the first hit and save their hides whenever possible.
Trap Sense (Ex):(unchanged) At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.
Danger Sense: At 3rd level, The same bonus to AC that the rogue recieves from trap sense is also applied as a Dodge bonus against all attacks and to initiative checks.
The above two additions are small changes but could significantly alter the way the rogue is perceived. No longer being all about sneak attack or traps but being about making the monster's day so unbearable and being the nimble, hard to hit skirmisher they should be.
I can see a lot of feats or items that further explore the rogue's abilities to basically find a way to make every obstacle less effective which is definitely a person you want in your party.
Lets start with ideas that might, conceivably happen:
1) Stronger, less situational talents. There are too many situational or otherwise severely limited. There are difficulties in this, given that the Rogue has no unified resource pool to draw from and making abilities that are just universally better than older ones is frowned upon, but there are ways around it. Perhaps a Rogue version of Barbarian totems, or abilities that grow stronger with levels.
2) Feat options that aren't at the end of long chains. Moonlight Stalker Feint, Disengaging Shot, and Sneaking Precision are all really interesting Rogue options. Unfortunately, they require so many feats that if that is what you want to do, it is ALL you will get to do. With Rogue's hankering for extra feats to buff up saves and combat ability already, it can be too much. Shorter chains on abilities that complement the Rogue's abilities would greatly help things.
There are also lots of ideas that are a bit more extreme, requiring adding abilities or significantly reworking current ones. I don't think this are likely outside of a new edition, so this is mostly just for theoretical arm-chair game design fun. There are tons of great thoughts out there, but my favorites are:
1) A unified resource pool. Call it ki, grit, panache, whatever. It will allow stronger abilities, along the line of Ninja talents, without having to add other limitations. I mean, Assault Leader is okay in theory, but only having it once a day is pretty weak for a PC. If I could choose to use some Rogue-grit for it, it would be great. Do I go crazy with the attacks, or save some mojo in case I need a Defensive Roll? Yay, strategic resource management!
2) Rethink Sneak Attack. It is a nice idea, but just doesn't do as much damage as one would hope. Perhaps a look back at Backstab? That is, an ability that is going to be harder to pull off, but very devastating when it works. Also, something where crits matter again. It is weird that many "Rogue" weapons like daggers and rapiers have high crit ranges, yet this means less to Rogues than almost any other martial class.
3) Rogue Talents more like Oracle Revelations. That is, fewer abilities that do more. Fold thematically related abilities into each other (I mean, who wants Rogue Crawl and not Stand Up?) and add options that improve with level (Minor Magic becomes Major at 7 and Familiar at 11). No more arbitrary distinction between Talents and Advanced Talents, instead use a variety of level minimums for more powerful options. A lot has changed in the design of these sorts of abilities since Pathfinder started, and it would be great to see some of it used in a future edition's Rogue.
Hmmn, my suggested fix is quit playing outside the CRB/APG. Fixes rogues right up.
;)
Remove Use Magic Device as a skill and add it as a rogue class ability at first level that increases with class level. Either base it on class level + CHA or class level + INT (INT if you want to be nice), and add some kind of fixed bonus to reflect that UMD used to be a class skill with several easy ways to enhance it. Add one or more Rogue Talents that affect the new ability, for example a talent granting a bonus on UMD rolls, or one removing the need to constantly re-roll UMD for emulating an alignment or a race.
This gives the rogue an unique ability that allows the class to use the part of the loot that nobody else can use, gives it more situational control and a lot of utility with scrolls and wands. It also frees up one skill point, enhancing the rogue's jack-of-all-trades-feel at both skills and its new ability to use many magic items.
I think the Ninja would have been a great "Fix" for the Rogue.
Now if it only wouldn´t step on flavour so much...
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I am making the following changes to my about to begin Beginner Box campaign/ E6
The player really likes rogues but has been outshined so far in his opinion and as a new to rpg player I really want him to have fun without worrying about rules. I tell a story and they roll dice and the group loves it.
All rogues can fight 2 handed. For this run is has to be a dagger, a sap or black jack type weapon, or a hand axe.
AC bonus equal to rogue level minus 1
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People seem to want to leave the Fighter and Rogue as broad-concept classes that you can use to make almost anything you want. I think that in D20, this hurts it in the long run, since that means it doesn't get the same abilities that more focused classes do to help them "do their job" in the long haul. Feats can be taken by "narrow focus" classes too, so they don't help the broad-concept ones stand out, and if a feat is needed to make a basic feature of the class work most of the time (say, Sneak Attacking in the dark) then that is one feat that isn't making it a more unique character or helping make it as legendary as the focused classes in the later levels.
Rogues need to stop trying to be everything to everybody, "declare their major" and graduate with the rest of the class. They don't have to be one trick ponies, but they shouldn't be the 7-year Liberal Arts degree in the resume pool for a character concept.
A lot of people have really good design ideas. I have a few that are basic repeats, but I put forward some guidelines that might help shape a lasting Rogue class:
(1) Decide what you want the Rogue's job to be. He needs to be able to do that no matter who else is in the party, or if they are busy. (It is all right to benefit from having a compatible class type available, but it shouldn't be necessary for you to work at full efficiency)
(2) His primary ability should advance without having to spend character creation resources on it. (It is fine if it can be made better with them- Alchemists and Barbarians run off of this principle. You should not have to be earmarking 80% of your skill points, feats and Tricks to do your job- and no one should suffer for taking skills or feats that make sense for the given story)
(3) His abilities should make sense when taken as a whole and never invalidate one another. (It is one thing to have an ability ready in case of a planning failure of another- say, an Alchemist can poison a weapon in case he can't Bomb or Feral Mutagen something. Sneak Attack and hiding in darkness require feats to actually work together, which doesn't make sense and goes back to needing character creation resources)
So I'm fairly new to Pathfinder, and I'm brand new to GMing. So...take everything I'm about to say with a HUGE grain of NOOB salt. Okay?
Why not just add a couple feats along the same lines of what eggplantman was suggesting? Something like:
DANCERS GRACE: Once per day as a full action, your character gains a +5 to perform: dance. All enemies within line of sight must make a Will save equal to your Perform:dance + Charisma Modifier + 1/2 character level or be considered staggered (stunned?) for 1d4+1 rounds. If you are a Rogue, add your non-negative Int modifier to the Will save requirements. NOTE: this ability may also be used to temporarily raise your Perform: Dance ability without forcing your opponent to make a will save. Doing so raises your Perform: Dance +3 instead of +5 for 1d6+1 rounds. Prereq: At least one skill rank in Perform: Dance.
DISTRACTING SHOUT: Once per day as a standard action, you let out a war yell that distracts all opponents within line of sight. All opponents take a 1d4 penalty to AC for a number of rounds equal to 1/3 your character level (minimum one). If you have at least one level as a Rogue or Barbarian, the AC penalty is 1/2 instead (minimum one). Using your shout allows an attack of opportunity if possible. Prereq: None
THREATENING SHOUT: Once per day, as a standard action, you let out a war shout that temporarily demoralizes all opponents within line of sight. All opponents take a 1d4 penalty to all saves and base attack bonus equal to 1/3 your character level (minimum one). If you have at least one level as a Rogue or Barbarian, the AC penalty is 1/2 instead (minimum one). Using your shout allows an attack of opportunity if possible. Prereq: Distracting shout.
DEMORALIZING ARGUEMENT: Once per day as a full action, all opponents within line of sight must make a will save equal to your diplomacy skill + Int modifier + 1/2 your character level, or take a 1d4+1 damage to Con OR Str OR Wis (player choice) that lasts for 1d6+1 rounds. Using this ability promotes an attack of opportunity. Prereq: Rogue minimum level 7 or Diplomacy skill 7.
UNPREDICTABLE MANEUVERS: Once per day as a free action, your character may use this ability to receive a temporary bonus to DEX (+2) that lasts for one round. During this round, the player may consider ANY single enemy as being flat-footed for the remainder of the round, even if they are not. If you are a Rogue of level 11 or higher, this ability may be used twice per day instead of once. Prereq: None
Okay so that last one wasn't really along the same lines as the others but hey, it sounds good. In any case, by classifying these abilities as feats, you allow any character to use them (thus not "changing" the Rogue), but at the same time you provide certain bonuses or incentives for a Rogue to pick up the feat as opposed to another class. Thus a Rogue that took some or all of these feats could very easily affect a large group of enemies just like how a Bard effects the party.
Any thoughts?
The general claim is that anything a rogue can do someone else can do better so why play a rogue. They do decent damage for a medium BAB class. They are good at skills, but other classes are close enough to them that they are better. The bard is really good with skills.
Scouting can be done with a ranger
The bard can and inquisitor can both handle social encounters.
Maybe the rogue can choose paths.
This is something I came up with before in another thread, but I have added a few things.
Scout Path
Light footed (Ex): A rogue gets a +2 bonus to stealth at 1st level. This increases by another +2 at level 5, and every additional 5 levels.
The purpose of this is to allow non-scout based rogues to still be sneaky, and rewarding those who focus on stealth to be the masters of their craft.
Undetectable (Ex or Su): A rogue becomes so adept at hiding that he can avoid extraordinary and supernatural senses. At 4th level a creature with scent does not automatically detect the rogue. He must make perception checks as if he did not have scent. At level 8 and beyond this ability improves, but it becomes supernatural with regards to foiling the other senses. At 8th level a creature with blindsense must make perception checks to detect a rogue as if he did not have blindsense. One he does detect the rogue blindsense applies as normal. At 12th level this ability also applies to tremorsense, and finally at level 16 it applies even to blindsight.
Always Aware: A rogue gets to add 1/2 his class level to all perception checks, not just ones to find traps.
Social Path
Social espionage-Social Espionage: At 1st level and every 5 levels afterwards the rogue gains skill focus for bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, and sense motive as a free feat. <--This one will be rewritten because I do not like the wording.
2nd chance-Sometimes when trying to convey a message you don't word things correctly. At 3rd level the rogue however gets a 2nd chance to get a point across. When making any social skill the rogue may reroll the dice if he does not like the result of the first roll. This decision to reroll must be made before the results of the roll are revealed. This ability is usable 1/day. Every 6 levels thereafter the ability is usable one additional time per day however you may only use this on any one target once per day.
Social Genius: A rogue may use his intelligence modifier in place of his charisma modifier for bluff, diplomacy, and intimidate.
possible alternate-->I also thought about giving social espionage a bonus to all the social skills as the rogue levels.
Knowledge Path
Educated: At 1st level a rogue gains all knowledge skills as class skills. He chooses 2 knowledge skills and receives a +2 bonus on these skills. At level 6 two more skills are chosen, and they receive a +2. For every 5 levels thereafter 2 more skills are added. At level 10 the bonuses increase to a +4.
Think again: If a rogue fails a knowledge check or he does not roll as high as he would have liked he may try again as swift action with a +5 bonus on the check. This ability can be used a number of time per day equal to half the rogue's intelligence modifier.
Recall Rumors: A rogue can even make knowledge checks even if he has no skill points in that particular skill albeit with a -5 penalty.
Maybe something like the 3.5 binder's pact augmentation ability?
At 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels, the rogue gets a floating (and cumualtive) +1 bonus that can apply to any of the following:
Attack Rolls
Damage Rolls
Saving Throws
Skill Checks
Hit Points (x5)
Initiative (x2)
Speed in Feet (x5)
Damage Reduction X/-
Luck Re-Roll
Each day, the rogue can re-allocate these points. This makes the rogue versatile again. Maybe call it Rogue's Luck, and they can provide luck bonuses.
Also, maybe introduce some kind of "cheat" mechanism that allows the rogue to qualify for feats and other special abilities they ordinarily wouldn't be able to.
For example:
1. The rogue can use her level in place of her BAB when qualifying for feats.
2. The rogue can use her Dex (or Int or Cha) score in place the normal ability score required for a feat.
3. The rogue can increase the maximum number of ranks she can spend on a skill by 1, or Int modifier or Charisma modifier or something like that.
4. The rogue can ignore racial requirements for feats.
Stuff like that.
Make rogues lucky cheats again!
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I like your ideas Smilo. I will add these to my notes on Rogue to run by the group tonight.
As a brief counter-argument though I wanted to ask; Damage Reduction?
I tend to be theme or concept (tunnel vision) blinded when considering options so I would like to know your reasoning for the Damage Reduction option. I am not wrapping my head around what would make a rogue ignore slashing for example (as it would be an option). Maybe it is because I woke at 4:30am with a splitting headache.
/shrug
I just put it down because it was on the original binder list.
Maybe separate the skill bonuses into Physical Skills and Mental Skills?
Maybe have a couple tiers of powers? 1, 10, 20? 1st level tiers could be Fort, Reflex, OR Will, 2nd level could be ALL Saves? Stuff like that? Don't want this to be TOO complicated, but higher level options might include SR, higher DR, Attack AND Damage (instead of Attack OR Damage), stuff like that. Maybe AC.
So some days, the rogue is a thuggish cut throat, the next a charming knave, the next a graceful burglar, the next a swift scout.
I'd like to give rogues Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers at first level. No tradeoff, just add it on, they all get these at first level. It would need to be playtested but I would be very surprised if it ended up unbalancing the game.
Increase the number of times a rogue can take Combat Trick to 2 (and the Swashbuckler archetype can take it up to 4).
Add rogue talents that make getting ranged sneak attacks much easier (New Stealth playtest, if it hasn't been abandoned, could help with that too.)
And ditto Mort the Cleverly Named on better and less circumstantial Rogue Talents in general. There are a number of talents I can see never actually being used--easily--in a campaign. Not even by an NPC. I think there's been a lot of fear of making rogue talents too powerful and in turn they are instead too weak/limited --- I always find it interesting that when people discuss the abilities of rogues, talents don't even come up, like they're not even worth mentioning. Rogue talents have a lot of what makes the Pathfinder rogue unique and they need a lot more love, care---and playtesting. There are a few standout rogue talents, but they become the "duh" talents that everyone takes while the rest are ignored.
I disagree with Mort on pool-based skills--I strongly dislike those in general and think they add far too much bookkeeping to a game that already requires a lot of bookkeeping. But I think you could have stronger talents without breaking anything, as well as "talent trees" that make the effects of talents improve as you level.