Hold Monster, if you are paralyzed you cannot take the required actions to keep flying. You drop like a brick. Making a fly check is made as 'part of another action', if you are unable to take any action due to being paralyzed, dazed or confused, you fall.
i thought you got a bonus against those types of spells when it would put you into unnecessary danger (I.E. hold monster on a powered flight creature cause it would cause them to fall)
Some do some dont, hold person doesnt thus hold monster doesnt. In fact hold monster specifically calls out flyers.
I got the dispel covered (which I had completely forgotten about btw), but if i am correct in the fly skill description, the fly checks are forced even if it is magical flight when taking damage and all of that
The things that you can do to force them to fall (shoot them out of the sky) force a fly check. However, if on their turn they fail to act to continue flying, they will fall. Those fly checks are not automatic. A dazed, paralyzed or confused monster(that isnt acting normally) will fall like a brick.
Your cyclone school power should force a DC22 (10 + CL) fly check on creatures passing within 10ft of you, failure knocking them to the ground. If you're fighting outside you can up that with Alter Winds, the harsh wind causing penalties to fly checks.
Since the cyclone has a 120ft height at 12th level you should be able to force these checks against multiple flying creatures every round just by running by underneath them or flying within a few feet.
The things that you can do to force them to fall (shoot them out of the sky) force a fly check. However, if on their turn they fail to act to continue flying, they will fall. Those fly checks are not automatic. A dazed, paralyzed or confused monster(that isnt acting normally) will fall like a brick.I'm wondering if this works against magical flight
btw, remember that there will probably be spell resistance and strong saves as the GM has been throwing groups of CR 14s at us like candy, maybe up to 15s now due to leveling
finding ways to get better spell penetration aside from the two feats would also be nice. I know about the varisian tatoo and spell specialization, but i'm wondering if there are items that would increase CL even if it is just for one spell
EDIT: excellent idea gluttony, that doesn't even allow for SR
Magical flight still requires acting to sustain it. The flight spell for instance states that is requires as much attention as walking. If you are paralyzed you cannot walk, no more flight, gravity takes over. Its not the same as the fly spell being dispelled, you simply are no longer flying (even if it isn't by choice).
Use your Dragonrend Shout :P (Couldn't resist)
Hold Person/Monster would be good for you if they are flying. You might think about inventing a spell (if one doesn't already exist) that shoots a glob of goo at flying creatures that entangles and drops them from the sky (again, only if they use wings). Magical flying is a little more difficult as you need to dispel it. The most annoying one is when it's a supernatural ability as it's not affected by entangling or Hold Monster, nor can it be dispelled. When it comes to supernatural flight, the only thing that really works is an anti-magic field.
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flying in this game is generally poorly implemented.
for example... the skill check to not lose altitude from damage should probably be based on the damage delt. DC 10+damage received should be the check and the amount of altitude lost should probably be equal to the amount failed.... or possibly an additional skill check every 10 feet to recover.
among other things.
Use your Dragonrend Shout :P (Couldn't resist)
Hold Person/Monster would be good for you if they are flying. You might think about inventing a spell (if one doesn't already exist) that shoots a glob of goo at flying creatures that entangles and drops them from the sky (again, only if they use wings). Magical flying is a little more difficult as you need to dispel it. The most annoying one is when it's a supernatural ability as it's not affected by entangling or Hold Monster, nor can it be dispelled. When it comes to supernatural flight, the only thing that really works is an anti-magic field.
Web should do the trick. Even with nothing to anchor to, I imagine it would cause difficulty for winged flyers. In a tree tops sorta situation, the reduction in move speed should cause flyers problems even if they don't get entangled.
Truthfully by around 8th - 10th level you need to look at ways to increase your melee damage dealers' mobility. A couple potions of fly really change the encounter.
Also remember to make sure that every party member has an effective ranged attack. Every wizard should have his crossbow, every elf a longbow, even if you seldom use them, they're great when ambushed or out manuvered.
Bolas.fliers are immune to being trippedBut not immune to having their wings tangled.
Additionally, any of the hand spells can be used to stop a fliers forward progress, which results in said flyer...
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At high levels, just stopping their progress wont make them fall. the dc to hover is what, 25? You have to completely stop them from being able to act.
The thing about web is...
These masses must be anchored to two or more solid and diametrically opposed points or else the web collapses upon itself and disappears.
... so if you cast Web on, say, a Manticore flying around, it would appear, then fade away and nothing happens.
I hate flying battles, they can get really annoying when trying to calculate out exactly how far away someone is for spell purposes. Sometimes, we just hand wave it, but when you're slinging Enervations around, suddenly the GM wants to know exactly how far away you are, and how far he has to move to stay out of range :P
My GM pulled that crap.
he would say things like the creature began and ended its turn out of range of the spell.
so we started holding actions to cast spells and make attacks... but that killed the rangers damage (can only get one bow shot on a hold action) and the casters had to essentially stand out in the open in order to use their spells as a hold action.
long story short. unless your GM is just forcing you to take punches to the face (some GMs do that) running is always an option. as is learning all you can and forcing your GM to follow the rules even those that he wants to fudge.
In the 3.5 Spell Compendium there's Earthbind (a lvl 2 spell I think), which forces a flying creature to the ground on a failed Fort save, magical flight or not. Spells granting flight are suppressed for the duration I believe.
What I do, is I use my Rod of Extend when he's just outside my normal range. He always forgets I have that, and I keep it around just to spite him.
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3.5 Spell Compendium also had Downdraft. Notable because it blew creatures downward 50 ft even if they made the save, 100 ft if they failed. And it is Reflex partial, not Reflex half, so Evasion does nothing to protect against that. Has some varied use since it deals falling damage (1d6 per 10 ft fallen) if a flier hits the ground and against anyone within the cylinder already on the ground, a failed save makes them prone. Unfortunately, it's Cleric 3 / Druid 3.
The book also has Wingbind, which is like a better Earth Bind. Net of force entabgles a winged creature and forces it to the ground, no helps against magical fliers. And it's single target, reflex NEGATES, and 4th level, so I much prefer Downdraft.
It's tough. I have a gestalt 17th level battlefield control caster that's about to take a teleporter to the "air dungeon," with Tiamat (in the setting just an super powerful multichromatic dragon, not a goddess) as the boss. I don't think I'll be able to use much BFC; so much of it is ground-based. :(
How about sleet storm? It makes the ground icy so it could conceivably be used to keep things from getting airborne.
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How about sleet storm? It makes the ground icy so it could conceivably be used to keep things from getting airborne.
It is highly dangerous to begin attributing behavior to spells that isn't explicitly called out in the rules. Technically haste makes you move and act faster, which means your muscles generate more CO2 more rapidly, which means you have to breathe faster to expel it. Since you have to breathe faster to handle the enhanced CO2 production, that means you drown faster if someone hastes you and forces you underwater, right?
So no, Sleet Storm does not do anything outside of it's normal effect to fliers. And also why you should not attempt to integrate real world physics, biology, and chemistry into the game :)
Don't forget things like solid fog, which will lock the flyer into place.
At that level, it's usually not so much that they can fly, it's that they can fly FASTER THAN YOU CAN.
There's also a whole set of illusions to hide your presence, and things like Tiny Hut that should make it more difficult for the fliers to target you.
The thing about web is...
These masses must be anchored to two or more solid and diametrically opposed points or else the web collapses upon itself and disappears.... so if you cast Web on, say, a Manticore flying around, it would appear, then fade away and nothing happens.
I hate flying battles, they can get really annoying when trying to calculate out exactly how far away someone is for spell purposes. Sometimes, we just hand wave it, but when you're slinging Enervations around, suddenly the GM wants to know exactly how far away you are, and how far he has to move to stay out of range :P
Could you use the Manticore's wing tips as anchors?
Sometimes there are points to anchor a web
phantasmal web doesn't need anchors
Illusions of walls, trees, cliffs that are not there (or the illusion moves them slightly from where they really are) to hamper the flying creatures movements.
Fogs, clouds, or deeper darkness to make fliers hit walls, trees, etc...
Reverse gravity should really screw with a winged flyer
Levitate things in the way
Telekenisis them to the ground
Enemy hammer is even more fun
Hydraulic push or torrent from above
Situational, but onetime we used curse and enfeeblement to make an armored flier suddenly heavily loaded and couldn't fly. Not always useable, but it was really fun.
Summon air elementals
Summon other creatures that could grapple
Sometimes the wall of X spells, summon swarms, or inspect plagues can be used to hem them into or out of an area
Confusion, entangle, calcific touch, river of wind, irresistable dance, hideous laughter, etc... should all interfere with a flier depending on GM interpritation.
Really, with just a little thought there are alot of spells that can interfere with fliers.
Or, better yet, go to the Evocation Optimization thread and steal some of the builds off there. Why worry about SR when you'll easily overcome it unless it's stupidly high. You simply blast the crap out of anything and everything around you.
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Use Shrink Item on a very large rock.
Attach said item to a tanglefoot bag.
Throw bag + item at flyer. Item is now "tossed onto a solid surface" and returns to normal size/weight, exceeding target's maximum carrying capacity.
Note that this does not work on very large/strong opponents.
Also note that the wizard/sorcerer who cast the spell does NOT need to be the person who "tosses the item onto a solid surface," so familiars, minions and other party members can actually be the ones to throw the item.
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Load up on a few Rays of Enfeeblement in those little used 1st level slots.
Remember a flyer cannot fly if their encumbrance is at a heavy load and they get terrible penalties if they are at or over medium.
(A medium or heavy load counts as medium or heavy armor for the purpose of abilities or skills that are restricted by armor.)
Hit a wizard/sorcerer with this spell and you can actually strip them of their ability to cast spells (impose an arcane spell failure check on every attempt to cast a spell).
A metamagic'ed (empowered or persistent or quickened are best) can take a flyer completely out of the fight in 1 round.
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Load up on a few Rays of Enfeeblement in those little used 1st level slots.
Remember a flyer cannot fly if their encumbrance is at a heavy load and they get terrible penalties if they are at or over medium.
(A medium or heavy load counts as medium or heavy armor for the purpose of abilities or skills that are restricted by armor.)
Hit a wizard/sorcerer with this spell and you can actually strip them of their ability to cast spells (impose an arcane spell failure check on every attempt to cast a spell).A metamagic'ed (empowered or persistent or quickened are best) can take a flyer completely out of the fight in 1 round.
Where does it say in Pathfinder that a creature cannot fly if they are restricted by heavy/medium armor (Barding and its restrictions only applies to mounts)?
What spell failure chance does a medium load create?
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Load up on a few Rays of Enfeeblement in those little used 1st level slots.
Remember a flyer cannot fly if their encumbrance is at a heavy load and they get terrible penalties if they are at or over medium.
(A medium or heavy load counts as medium or heavy armor for the purpose of abilities or skills that are restricted by armor.)
Hit a wizard/sorcerer with this spell and you can actually strip them of their ability to cast spells (impose an arcane spell failure check on every attempt to cast a spell).A metamagic'ed (empowered or persistent or quickened are best) can take a flyer completely out of the fight in 1 round.
Where does it say in Pathfinder that a creature cannot fly if they are restricted by heavy/medium armor (Barding and its restrictions only applies to mounts)?
What spell failure chance does a medium load create?
Under the lifting and carrying rules.
A character can lift as much as double his maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it. While overloaded in this way, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per round (as a full-round action).
Added to this rule under the fly skill
a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance greater than half its speed.
A creature who's strength is dropped enough (especially a flyer who isn't known for having high strength to begin with) is suddenly completely over-loaded with 1 casting of the OP's ray of enfeeblement (minimum 7 points max 12 or 15 if empowered).
Per the encumbrance rules not only does that target all but +1 from his dexterity bonus (which is what Fly is based on) they also suffer a -6 to all fly checks and that's just if they are carrying less then twice their new maximum load.Now for any character other then the strength based martial the OP's will drop their strength to a 1 or 2 meaning 21 lbs keeps them from moving at all.
With the sheer number of str 8 casters out there this drops them below 0 and invokes this rule
A character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way and is unconscious.
And they fall out of the sky.
As for what spell failure chance a medium load causes that will be somewhere between %20-%30 like all medium armors cause (the GM will have to decide the exact amount).
I never said the rules are perfect only that this is another option to bring flyers down.
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With the sheer number of str 8 casters out there this drops them below 0 and invokes this rule"A character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way and is unconscious."
And they fall out of the sky.
Not true. The spell specifies that it reduces the strength to a minimum of 1. So they can't be knocked unconscious with this spell.
However, it is likely that they will drop under the weight of their own gear. The problem is that in standard "Piazo Bad Editing" fashion, there is no clear rule for how magical (as opposed to winged) flight works. Hovering is a DC 15 fly check.
Let's look at an some examples of outcomes by my interpretation of RAW:
Example 1: Suppose you are a wizard with a Strength of 8 and you suddenly find you have a strength of 1. Let's further suppose you have a handy haversack, and a few other items, so your total weight carried is only 20 pounds. Now with a strength of 1 your maximum load is 10 pounds. The wizard has his movement reduced to reduced his movement to 5' - but he can still move so he says in the air.
Example 2: If the same wizard had been carrying 35 pounds, he would have exceeded triple his max load. So now what? Well the rules are silent on this - I would argue that he simply falls and takes normal damage from falling, but a generous GM might rule that he is "dragged to the ground" (in effect he's not dragging the weight, the weight is dragging him), and he takes no damage.
Example 3: If the same wizard were carrying more than 50 pounds, I would definitely rule that he falls and takes damage though.
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With the sheer number of str 8 casters out there this drops them below 0 and invokes this rule"A character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way and is unconscious."
And they fall out of the sky.
Not true. The spell specifies that it reduces the strength to a minimum of 1. So they can't be knocked unconscious with this spell.
However, it is likely that they will drop under the weight of their own gear. The problem is that in standard "Piazo Bad Editing" fashion, there is no clear rule for how magical (as opposed to winged) flight works. Hovering is a DC 15 fly check.
Let's look at an some examples of outcomes by my interpretation of RAW:
Example 1: Suppose you are a wizard with a Strength of 8 and you suddenly find you have a strength of 1. Let's further suppose you have a handy haversack, and a few other items, so your total weight carried is only 20 pounds. Now with a strength of 1 your maximum load is 10 pounds. The wizard has his movement reduced to reduced his movement to 5'
Example 2: If the same wizard had been carrying 35 pounds, he would have exceeded triple his max load. So now what? Well the rules are silent on this - I would argue that he simply falls and takes normal damage from falling, but a generous GM might rule that he is "dragged to the ground" (in effect he's not dragging the weight, the weight is dragging him), and he takes no damage.
Example 3: If the same wizard were carrying more than 50 pounds, I would definitely rule that he falls and takes damage though.
Bah, I always forget that dang can't reduce below 1.
But that's really the point, drop the strength to 1 or 2 and apply that -6 penalty while stripping away their dex bonus. Tends to BADLY ruining the capabilities of a flying character.