I know this topic is like beating the whipped froth that was once a dead horse, but I feel the current discussion is lost in a sea of unrelated tangents. I post this in an effort to iron out what the problem is, with in intent to find solutions in game, and create house rules that address the problem without too many unintended consequences.
Note: This comparison generally considers casters to be wizards although almost everything applies to sorcerers, clerics, druids, and even bards. Likewise, martials generally refers to fighters, but also applies to rogues, and to a lesser extent, rangers, paladins, and others. Some classes such as the summoner and alchemist can blur the lines a bit and are not the focus of this post.
Note II: I think Pathfinder has done a great job in narrowing the gap while maintaining backward compatibility, however it still exists, and I would like to see how far we can go while keeping the feel of the game we all know and love.
Ability Scores:
Everything a caster does runs off of a single stat. Save DCs, overcoming SR, concentration, bonus spells, etc. In the case of Int casters, this also gives you a huge boost in total skills, and specifically knowledges and spellcraft (see crafting later.) This allows casters to start with a 20, and often still have a better Con score then the party fighter.
Solution:
Don't allow casters to start with a primary stat above 17 or 18. Provide players with an array rather then using point-buys.
Economy of actions:
Almost all of a casters spells can be cast in a single standard action. Martial characters must generally spend a full round action to get the full benefit of their abilities.
There are also a huge number of spells that create a lasting effect that is useful round after round. There are even several spells that have a duration of days/level or permanent, which allows a caster to receive benefits from previous castings while still having their full allotment of spells.
In addition, there is the quicken spell feat and rods that allow the caster TWO spells in a round, with nothing similar (two full-attacks) for martials.
Solution:
This requires house ruling. Making 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells a full round action to cast. Limiting the effects of spells that last for days such as Dominate Person. I prefer this solution to giving full attacks as a standard action (take a look at older dragons with 6 attacks and a 200+ fly speed!)
Equipment:
Casters generally require less equipment, and get more benefit from their equipment then martials. For example, a wizard can get a headband of intellect +4 for the same price as the fighters belt of bodily perfection +2. The martial also requires a variety of expensive weapons, armor, and special items for movement.
But it gets so much worse. While the fighter spends 16,000gp for his belt, the wizard spends 8,000- Half price because he crafted it himself. (He can also get %30 off by making it usable by only wizards or those of his own alignment, thus bringing it down to 5,600gp - although this is up for debate). In effect, the wizard ends up with about twice as much treasure as the fighter, and gets more benefit from them.
Solution:
This requires house ruling. Limiting the benefits of crafting and restoring WBL across the board, and allowing martials a better option then the Master Craftsman feat.
Bypassing HP:
Martials generally must make attacks that hit the creatures AC, chipping away a creatures HP. Until a creature reaches 0hp, the fighter has not had an effect on the creatures effectiveness in mechanical terms. A caster can pick a creatures weakest save, touch AC, or even bypass saves and even SR altogether. A caster can shut down a creature using a single standard action, with a fairly good chance of success, and an often minimal investment in resources.
This also works in terms of casters defenses. Casters can come up with a decent AC at the low to mid levels, and also have a variety of spells such as mirror image and displacement that work outside the AC/HP system.
Solution:
Pathfinder has come a long way in giving more options for martial characters to bypass the AC/HP system. Limiting a casters ability scores, and resources makes the Save/SR system more difficult to bypass. Also, putting additional house rule limits on Save-or-Suck/Die magic.
Versatility:
With the exception of Bards and Sorcerers, casters are able to swap out all of their spells each day, depending on what they think they may face. They can also keep a variety of scrolls, wands, and other items that allow them a huge set of back-up of items. Bards and sorcerers get a large benefit from scrolls and wands, perhaps more so because they can Use Magic Device to great benefit thanks to their high Cha.
Solution:
Again Pathfinder has made a good step by allowing fighters to swap out combat feats, and Evil Lincoln has come up with a similar idea for other martial classes. However, the casting and feat systems are so entrenched in the rules, that I don't know if there is a better solution then the stopgap measure that Evil Lincoln came up with.
Control of Movement/Travel, Enchantment, Healing, and Summoning:
While there are some ways to get these effect from other means, casters generally have the same access to these limited effects as martials. In general, if you want to do any of these effects, casters are much better by far then martials.
Solution:
Short of a house rule giving spell-like abilities to martials, or making these cheap and available in the campaign world, I don't see much solution.
A couple of additional points:
- Wizards are no longer squishy, even at lower levels. Now that they have d6 hit dice, a favored class bonus to hp, and easy access to a good constitution score, a caster can often have about the same hp as a fighter of equal level.
- Casters also have many more spells and magical abilities then they did in the original editions of the game. After the mid levels, a caster running out of resources is almost unheard of.
- Many folks will say the solution to something like an enchanter dominating or bypassing encounters is to simply use mindless creatures constructs and undead. However, solutions that eliminate half the beastiary, or require every encounter to have an enemy caster counterspelling, or other limit are not solutions as much as amputations of large parts of the game. Yes, magic, and especially high level magic requires different challenges, but it should not invalidate huge parts of the system.
So what other issues do casters present that cause trouble with the system?
Ability Scores: Also note that casters aren't expected to face combat much, so they can get away with less Con (though often times it's still their 2nd favorite stat regardless). The single most broken things PF did to the stat imbalance were:
1) Making it TRIVIALLY easy to get +2 to a mental stat. On the other hand, if you want a str/dex or str/con boost, or even dex/con, as many martials would prefer...you're out of luck. There's some races that boots two mentals, like Aasimar. No such thing for melee. Heck, the amount of races that boost strength at all or that boost dex without hurting con are miniscule.
2) The belt and headband items. Consolidated all 3 physical and mental stats in one slot, complete with the +50% cost for each after the first, AND forced you to raise all abilities evenly (has to be str +4 / dex +4, can't do str +4 / dex +2). A caster basically never needs a 2nd mental stat. EVERY noncaster needs 2 or all 3 physical. This is utterly disgusting.
EDIT: I also think it'd be nice if the system gave you a +1 to two or even three different ability scores every 4th level. Possibly balance it by requiring the player to not boost the same score twice in a row (at 4th and 8th level, for example). Current system of "boost your highest by 1 every 4 levels, unless you have an odd score you really want evened out" heavily favors casters.
Economy of actions: Could just ban quicken spell... That'd help a lot. I've long been partial to making haste give an extra move action per turn instead of the extra attack, though some character types might prefer it as-is.
Bypassing HP: This is what combat maneuvers are supposed to be for. Unfortunately, in PF many AC boosting effects also boost CMD. It was much easier in 3E against a foe that was hard to hit/damage to simply trip spam or grapple lock him up. Strength checks completely divorce themselves from the attack bonus / AC / hp mechanism. Martials could definitely use some save-based stuff, though. In 3E, you had the Daunting Presence feat (will save or be shaken for a long time; could fear stack it w/ intimidate), Tome of Battle maneuvers (tons; my personal favorite was the high level ability to throw your weapon in a 60 ft line reflex save for half effect), and so forth.
Versatility: Allow much more feat retraining. Condense the feats PF broke up into 2, like improved and Greater maneuver feats. Condense other feats to simply improve with level. Weapon Focus could simply increase when you hit Fighter 8 instead of requiring another feat, for example. Make more good high level feats like Stunning Assault, where the only requirement is being high level. Enough with the giant feat trees that kill the ability to be versatile.
Movement/etc...: Yeah, it'd take a total re-do of the rules and assumptions to fix this. Frank & K's Tome classes apparently have high level abilities like "I swing my sword in an arc and teleport across the globe in a poof of smoke." But most people don't want psuedo-magical sword techniques like that, even at high levels. Making skills more useful and buffing up noncasters so they are just plain better at combat than casters are (since "Fighting" is what a Fighter is all about) is probably the best you can do about it. Casters get to do the cool utility and physics-destroying stuff, the martials dominate in combat and possibly are able to use their skills to reproduce minor magical-like effects. Stuff like the epic skill rules. I seriously don't se the problem with letting Acrobatics allow you to fall any distance unscathed, Escape Artist to slip through a wall of force, an so on... Noncasters need to be able to do cool things like that with skills, especially rogues.
First of all every game is different and for most groups it is not an issue.
What I would do is play the game first. Try to solve the issues without houseruling, and then go to houseruling as a last resort.
By houseruling issues you do not have you may create problems that don't exist.
"Rising from the pit in a fountain of nightmarish screams and black toxic ichor the Caster Martial Disparity god sloughs away the dust of ages to vault into the black void of infinite space. As stars wink out of existence from the sheer horror of the black deities spine rending birth cries the undulating carapace of the Lord of All that Ends blots out the soothing warmth of ignorance."
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On the ability score front:
Fighters use:
Strength for Damage
Strength or Dex to Hit and CMB
Dex for AC and CMD
Con for Hit Points
Wizards use:
Primary casting (INT WIS CHA) stat for casting.
If I was going to re-write the rules, I'd have the wizards "Cast from Hit Points", meaning that how much they can cast in one day is tied to their CON, while the power of their spells is governed by their primary casting stat.
That, however, would involve pretty much starting over from scratch as far as the magic system is concerned. Near to it, anyways.
Not only, but every spell adds some options, and a wizard can learn it without limitation (and cleric are even worst), when instead a martial need to acquire level to take a feat.
"Rising from the pit in a fountain of nightmarish screams and black toxic ichor the Caster Martial Disparity god sloughs away the dust of ages to vault into the black void of infinite space. As stars wink out of existence from the sheer horror of the black deities spine rending birth cries the undulating carapace of the Lord of All that Ends blots out the soothing warmth of ignorance."
HERE WE GO AGAIN. BARDICSCIMITARPOUNCE!
First of all every game is different and for most groups it is not an issue.
What I would do is play the game first. Try to solve the issues without houseruling, and then go to houseruling as a last resort.
By houseruling issues you do not have you may create problems that don't exist.
What things, if any, did you or the GM take to avoid these problems wraithstrike?
I would agree that many groups can play for a long time, and never have a problem with these issues, hell, folks played AD&D for years, and horrible imbalance was everywhere in that system. These problems come up VERY often on the forums, and in several campaigns I have played. At higher levels it becomes almost unavoidable, especially in light of the recent crafting FAQ answers.
The last time I played a wizard through a whole AP, I had to deliberately dial back my power to avoid overshadowing the other players in the last couple of books. My character made little effort to maximize his abilities, deliberately picked spells that let other players shine, and mostly avoided teleporting all over, having dominated living/undead creatures, and crafting anything but scrolls and wands.
When I GM, I ask players to avoid specializing in action-denial magic, and limit starting stats. So far it is working well, but the campaign is still at low levels.
PS Thanks Stream of the Sky! I was worried my perfectly good wizards vs fighters thread would fall off the edge of the boards.
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Wizard does 1d4+1 with magic missile, Fighter does 2d6+9 with greatsword, clear disparity here. ;-)It falls apart though when the wizard can cast greater invis, fly, and mindblank on himself, making him immune to everything but blindsight and blindsense. which the fighter could never get =p.
Just as planned.
First of all every game is different and for most groups it is not an issue.
What I would do is play the game first. Try to solve the issues without houseruling, and then go to houseruling as a last resort.
By houseruling issues you do not have you may create problems that don't exist.Because it's obvious that the OP and anyone with these issues hasn't played the game?
Why do you assume that the OP hasn't run into the problems he describes? Or tried to solve them without houserules?
I do suspect you're right that it isn't an issue for most groups, but that's because I also suspect, from anecdotal evidence, that most games for most groups end before reaching high levels.
I am not assuming anything. He presented as a potential issue not as current issue so that is how I addressed it. Had he said I have ______ in my games and so do other posters I would have given a different response.
What things did you or the GM do to avoid these problems wraithstrike?I would agree that many groups can play for a long time, and never have a problem with these issues, hell, folks played AD&D for years, and horrible imbalance was everywhere in that system. These problems come up VERY often on the forums, and in several campaigns I have played. At higher levels it becomes almost unavoidable, especially in light of the recent crafting FAQ answers.
Going back to the first post...
Ability Scores:I use 20 pb, and I have never seen a caster out con the fighter. Most people in my group start with a con of 14 or better. Even if their con is better starting off they should still have less hp due to base HD.
They also can't ignore the other stats. A caster will have to worry about will saves just as much as a fighter will. A fighter is less dependent on a high str score than a caster is on his casting stat to make things work. You can start with a 16 in strength, still hit the target and do considerable damage as a fighter. Later in the game bonuses to saves get high, and you if you try to force a save as a caster your actions might get wasted which is why spell like spell focus come into place. Even then you have to bypass SR, and you have to spend resources to bypass that also. The caster basically has to get past more defenses at higher levels.
Economy of actions:
The caster can run out of spells. A fighter can never run out of swings. As long as he has hp he is good to go. This(a spell lasting a long time) often helps the group so I never saw it as an issue. I don't think the fighter will be upset because the bad guys were slowed for the entire fight.
Equipment: The equipment for stat boosting all has the same formula. A fighter will generally try to get the belt that boost strength and constitution, along with the headband that boost wisdom.
A caster will generally try to get the headband that boost his primary casting stat, plus wisdom unless he is a druid, and does not care about the other state. The caster will also try to get his con boosted so the prices should be the same. Everyone likes cloaks of resistance. The fighter will spend more money on permanent items, but caster might pick up wands and scrolls instead. I don't see how that affects the caster being able to overshadow the fighter though.
Bypassing HP:
Martial times can bypass HP also. The critical line of feats, and the assault feats in the APG allow martial times to add status effects to attacks. Yeah casters can do it more often, but casters are not designed to do HP damage, and if they did the fighter would just have less of a place in the party. I see that as a good thing, that fighters don't generally have competition in this area.
Versatility:
I never saw this as an issue. Caster are basically problem solvers, and it is good that the fighter class can swap out feats.
Control of Movement/Travel, Enchantment, Healing, and Summoning:
Melee types can control movement. If stand still was not restricted to adjacent squares they could be better at it. I am going to change that feat the next time I run a game. I don't want martial type providing healing, enchanting or summoning. It kills verisimilitude for me.
PS:How did you overshadow people?
Until 15th level or later there should not be an issue IMHO.
This combo is not that hard to figure out especially since the characters are normally smarter than the player. Drop dispel magic or glitterdust wherever the bad guys are dying at. Dust of appearance also works. I think powder works also, and it is not even a magic item.