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Kensai Magus: Diminished Spellcasting Question


Rules Questions


3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Diminished Spellcasting- Kensai may cast one fewer spell of each level than normal. If this reduces the number to 0, he cast spells of that lvl only if his Int allows bonus spells of that lvl.

Do the 0 lvl spells count in this restriction? They are considered cantrips and can be cast multiple times. However, does the Diminished Casting make you prepare 1 less per day? The chart in the CRB p.17 doesn't have a high intelligence adding extra lvl 0 spells. A magus normally gets 3 lvl 0 and 1 lvl 1 spells per day, a Kensai would drop that to 2 lvl 0 and 0 lvl 1 and since the INT doesn't add to lvl 0 but does to the lvl 1... would you end up with 2 lvl 0 and 1 lvl 1?

At low levels having an extra 0 lvl spell is very useful... later on it might not be as good, but here and now I think I could make use of it.

However, the ability only states that you can cast less spells it doesn't say it takes away from spells prepared a day. So technically could you prepare 3 lvl 0 spells and 2 lvl 1 spells but only cast 1 lvl 1 and cast away the lvl 0s?

I think I know how I interprut the rule, but wanted others opinion before I bring it up with my GM and he looks at me like I am trying to take advantage of the system.

Thanks in advance!


SycoSurfer wrote:

Diminished Spellcasting- Kensai may cast one fewer spell of each level than normal. If this reduces the number to 0, he cast spells of that lvl only if his Int allows bonus spells of that lvl.

Do the 0 lvl spells count in this restriction?

I think the intent is that it applies to cantrips as well as normal spells.

There are spells known, and spells per day. Since spells known for the magus is what's in his book, there's not really any way to limit that. So the reduction from diminished spellcasting should apply to spells per day.

Cantrips: "A magus can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted in the table above under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again."

They are cast like any other spell, just not expended. If you cast one fewer spell of each level, then you should be able to cast one fewer cantrip, regardless of whether it's expended or not.

Andoran

Yes. You get, in effect, one less slot each level.

It is a horrible, horrible draw back.


Ok that answers my question for the 0 lvl spells, but how about the lvl 1 spells? Since I can prepare 2 lvl 1 spells but only cast 1 would I be able to have a little more flexibility? Color Spray and Shocking grasp only use 1 expending my total for the day?


SycoSurfer wrote:
Since I can prepare 2 lvl 1 spells but only cast 1 would I be able to have a little more flexibility? Color Spray and Shocking grasp only use 1 expending my total for the day?

I'm not sure what you're asking, here.

Look at the Spells per Day section of Table: Magus. Take every number there and reduce it by 1.

At level one you get 2 cantrips and 0 1st-level spells per day.

If you have a high intelligence score, you may get extra spells per day based on Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells.

If you have 12 to 19 int, then you get one extra 1st-level spell per day, meaning you have a total of 2 cantrips and 1 1st-level spell per day. You prepare one 1st-level spell in that 1st-level spell slot, and you cast it. You can prepare and then cast Color Spray, or you can prepare and cast Shocking Grasp. You can't do both because you only have one 1st-level spell slot.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Oh, I see what you're saying.

You're asking if you can prepare the normal number of spells, but are limited to actually casting one less. Sort of a weird semi-spontaneous kind of thing.

I have no idea. I suspect the idea was basically prepare one less spell per day, but they did word it kind of funny, so maybe the intent was to make diminished spellcasting not quite so crippling. I'll FAQ it.

-edit- Here's an example in case the FAQ-master doesn't quite know what we're saying.

A level 1 Magus with 14 Int has two 1st-level spells per day.

If that magus has Diminshed Spellcasting, he can cast one fewer 1st-level spell per day.

Can he still prepare two spells, and choose which one to cast during the day? (Being unable to then cast the other one, even though it was prepared)

Andoran

I see what you're saying and while it is a good idea, and might be able to be argued RAW, I seriously doubt it is RAI and it certainly doesn't have a precedence. (Loosing 1 slot / level does have a precedence, but that was a spontaneous caster and they probably didn't think of that when they brought it in.)


The Kensai only reduces number of spells cast. Unless I am missing a section that only allows you to prepare what you can cast. Maybe I am just trying to make it work in my head. I am thinking this would make you similar to a class that doesn't have to mem spells... you would have 2 known (per day) but only 1 per day to use. You could just learn 2 new ones the next day as you still have to mem.

I am thinking I would be able to prepare as normal at lvl 1 get 1 lvl 1 spell and 1 for my Int. Thus preparing 2... diminished casting reduces number cast so I can only cast 1 not 2 like normal. So I could prepare both, but only cast 1...

Same with cantrips I could prepare 3 and cast less, but since you can cast unlimited it wouldn't hinder you.

I see how you are reading it and maybe I am just reading it differently cause I would like the extra spell, and I'm not trying to be difficult just want to get it cleared up. It just states cast not prepared in the diminished casting so its kinda vauge as to how it hinders you. /shrug


Before I responded you guys got me... thanks for the assistance guys!


YOU CAN CAST INFINITE CANTRIPS - 1

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Grick wrote:

Oh, I see what you're saying.

You're asking if you can prepare the normal number of spells, but are limited to actually casting one less. Sort of a weird semi-spontaneous kind of thing.

I have no idea. I suspect the idea was basically prepare one less spell per day, but they did word it kind of funny, so maybe the intent was to make diminished spellcasting not quite so crippling. I'll FAQ it.

-edit- Here's an example in case the FAQ-master doesn't quite know what we're saying.

A level 1 Magus with 14 Int has two 1st-level spells per day.

If that magus has Diminshed Spellcasting, he can cast one fewer 1st-level spell per day.

Can he still prepare two spells, and choose which one to cast during the day? (Being unable to then cast the other one, even though it was prepared)

What you can cast is what you can prepare. Which means the answer to that last is no.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
ShadowcatX wrote:

Yes. You get, in effect, one less slot each level.

It is a horrible, horrible draw back.

It's a proper tradeoff for having significantly better melee ability than the average magus.


LazarX wrote:
What you can cast is what you can prepare. Which means the answer to that last is no.

Casting and preparation are not always the same thing, sometimes you have spells prepared that you can't cast. If you're hit with Feeblemind, then Healed, you don't lose all your prepared spells. Same thing with negative levels or ability score loss, you might not be able to cast the spell any more, but it's still prepared and you could cast it again once the condition gets fixed.

While I think the intent was to lose the slot, if they did want it to work as SycoSurfer describes, then that would be how to write it.


I mostly came to try to get a ruling on the extra LvL 0 spell. However, as I read more INTO the rule I started trying to re-interprut the rule. I agree that it seems to be written to take 1 spell away per day (which is how I had been playing it), but they wrote it as cast. Now looking at the way a Wizard/Magus prepares spells and thus practically casts the spell to mem them into their mind to hold for a later release... then I would say that it would take one spell away. I agree that thats how it SHOULD be, but it is just written a little open for interprutation. I wouldn't argue it if anyone ruled it either way, but I would probably lean towards no spell as most of you have stated.

However, the LvL 0 spell I lose for being a Kensai... with a high INT you get to cast 1 extra spell per level, but on p. 17 of the CRB it doesn't allow you to add an extra 0 level spell with a high INT. Was this a mistake or purposely done? It just seems that if I can mem 1 extra lvl 1 I would be able to Mem an extra 0. Wonder what the reason that was left off was.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Grick wrote:
LazarX wrote:
What you can cast is what you can prepare. Which means the answer to that last is no.

Casting and preparation are not always the same thing, sometimes you have spells prepared that you can't cast. If you're hit with Feeblemind, then Healed, you don't lose all your prepared spells. Same thing with negative levels or ability score loss, you might not be able to cast the spell any more, but it's still prepared and you could cast it again once the condition gets fixed.

While I think the intent was to lose the slot, if they did want it to work as SycoSurfer describes, then that would be how to write it.

Casting IS Preparation for non-spontaneous casters. The Magus is not a sorcerer and we aren't using Monte Cooks's Arcana Evolved rules. It means that as a Kensai or any other archetype that has reduced spellcasting it's exactly as it says on the tin. You cast and prepare less.

Otherwise by your logic, every wizard or magus should be able to prepare one more spell for EACH spell slot they cast.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Let's take off our cheese monkey hat and put on our KISS hat...regardless of how you want to interpret the prepare thing keep in mind that doing as you suggest would add a significantly higher level of book keeping than needed...so let's KISS the and move on.

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