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PFS specific Alchemist Archetype question


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

Andoran *****

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

For the purposes of PFS I know the general rule of thumb is you can use more than one archetype, as long as they dont replace the same abilities.

My question lies with the Internal Alchemist's Disease Resistence ability:
"Disease Resistance: At 3rd level, an internal alchemist gains a bonus on all saving throws against disease equal to his alchemist class bonus against poison. When he gains the poison immunity alchemist class ability, he becomes immune to disease as well. This ability replaces swift alchemy."

Emphasis mine. So Im wondering if you could stack this archetype with one that replaces Poison Immunity (most of them) and/or fully replaces Poison Resistance (Beastmorph)? I'm inclined to say yes, they can be stacked, but I'd rather not have to rebuild a character at every table cause a GM disagrees with how I think it should work in PFS.

Also, and this isnt neccessarily PFS specific, but if you take an archetype that replaces Throw Anything, it doesnt alter the Bomb ability and remove the Int bonus to the damage, right?

Thanks! :)

**

PRD wrote:
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature.

The archtype blurb says that you can't have 2 that alter the same ability. as Interal Alchemist alters poison resitance/poison immunity you won't be able to take any other archtype that also alters poison resitance/poison immunity.

Andoran *****

But it doesnt alter poison resistance/immunity. The disease resistance/immunity is based on the Poison R/I, but doesnt say it changes how it works.

Im questioning whether or not it works because some other Archetypes get rid of Poison Immunity. So If I took one that got rid of Poison Immunity, could I take Internal Alchemist, also, I wouldnt ever gain Poison Immunity for Deisease Immunity to copy it. So really, Id' be altering, sort of, Disease Immunity. Which may or may not answer my question.

Qadira *****

Poison resistance/immunity is expanded to include diseases at the cost of swift alchemy. This means the poison resistance/immunity ability is altered, so you are not eligible to take any other archetypes that alter/remove the poison resistance/immunity.

Andoran *****

I think I agree with what you are saying, Vinyc, but disagree with how you are saying it, if that makes sense.

Im actually hoping for an official word, though I realize those dont always happen. :/

Qadira ****

I can see where the OP is coming from... not sure if it would be "legal" in PFS -
but if it is just an add on to the Poision Resist/Imm, and the 2nd acchtype removes Poison Resist/Imm. - I could see it being fine, but the 2nd would remove both Poison & Desease Res/Imm..

Is that what you are looking for? Realizing that because of YMMV you are going to get Judges who will rule that this is not a valid character build.


I think this should be legal because the disease resistance/immunity replaces swift alchemy not poison resistance/immunity. If you took another archetype that replaces poison resistance/immunity then both disease and poison resistance/immunity would do nothing.


godsDMit wrote:

For the purposes of PFS I know the general rule of thumb is you can use more than one archetype, as long as they dont replace the same abilities.

My question lies with the Internal Alchemist's Disease Resistence ability:
"Disease Resistance: At 3rd level, an internal alchemist gains a bonus on all saving throws against disease equal to his alchemist class bonus against poison. When he gains the poison immunity alchemist class ability, he becomes immune to disease as well. This ability replaces swift alchemy."

Emphasis mine. So Im wondering if you could stack this archetype with one that replaces Poison Immunity (most of them) and/or fully replaces Poison Resistance (Beastmorph)? I'm inclined to say yes, they can be stacked, but I'd rather not have to rebuild a character at every table cause a GM disagrees with how I think it should work in PFS.

Also, and this isnt neccessarily PFS specific, but if you take an archetype that replaces Throw Anything, it doesnt alter the Bomb ability and remove the Int bonus to the damage, right?

Thanks! :)

What you bolded does not alter or replace Poison Immunity, so you should be able to combine it with an archetype that replaces poison immunity. But the only catch I am seeing is that if you have another archetype that replaces poison immunity, then you will never gain disease immunity because you do not actually get poison immunity and then replace it, you simply never get it. So I do not know if this would make Internal Alchemist an illegal archetype to have because you cannot have the ability that would normally replace Swift Alchemy.

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Michigan—Alma

Enevhar Aldarion wrote:


What you bolded does not alter or replace Poison Immunity, so you should be able to combine it with an archetype that replaces poison immunity. But the only catch I am seeing is that if you have another archetype that replaces poison immunity, then you will never gain disease immunity because you do not actually get poison immunity and then replace it, you simply never get it. So I do not know if this would make Internal Alchemist an illegal archetype to have because you cannot have the ability that would normally replace Swift Alchemy.

This is how I would read it as well. Also, if your other archetype replaces the poison resistance, you wouldn't get the disease resistance either, since the disease bonus is dependent on the poison bonus.

Andoran *****

That's what I'm hoping.

In case anyone wants to get really specific, the other archetype Im planning on using is the Chirurgeon. I'm definitely going to take that, maybe Internal Alchemist as well, but only if this works out.

Im going to try to play the character like 'Uncle' from the Jackie Chan Adventures cartoon.

And since no one has commented one way or the other about this part, I will re-ask it here: If I take Internal Alchemist, it doesnt change the Bomb ability to not include the Int to damage, since Throw Anything is replaced, right?

Im thinking it doesnt, but again, I just want to make sure.

**

godsDMit wrote:

That's what I'm hoping.

In case anyone wants to get really specific, the other archetype Im planning on using is the Chirurgeon. I'm definitely going to take that, maybe Internal Alchemist as well, but only if this works out.

Im going to try to play the character like 'Uncle' from the Jackie Chan Adventures cartoon.

And since no one has commented one way or the other about this part, I will re-ask it here: If I take Internal Alchemist, it doesnt change the Bomb ability to not include the Int to damage, since Throw Anything is replaced, right?

Im thinking it doesnt, but again, I just want to make sure.

it won't fly at my tables because I beleive that internal alchemist Has altered poision resistance/immunity by saying 'When he gains the poison immunity alchemist class ability, he becomes immune to disease as well.'. the character doesn't gain a 2nd ability that is called 'immune to disease' when he gains 'poison immunity', 'poison immunity' has change to also give immunity to disease.

the bonus damage = to your int mod is from throw anything, so any archtype that replaces throw anything loses that bonus damage from my reading. And won't gain it back from taking the feat later, as the the bonus damage is part of the alchemist bonus feat version not the standard version.

that is my rather strict reading of the rules anyways.


joshua gaines wrote:

it won't fly at my tables because I beleive that internal alchemist Has altered poision resistance/immunity by saying 'When he gains the poison immunity alchemist class ability, he becomes immune to disease as well.'. the character doesn't gain a 2nd ability that is called 'immune to disease' when he gains 'poison immunity', 'poison immunity' has change to also give immunity to disease.

Actually, poison immunity is not modified at all. Disease immunity replaces swift alchemy, and that replacement is dependent on when he gains poison immunity. This is not part of the poison immunity ability.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If it's PFS, and if there's any ambiguity, assume no.

The real question of this post also applies to urban guide Rangers.

Taldor ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Carbondale

Under the bomb description for the alchemist it says, they get to add int mod to damage. From that alone I would say yes they get to keep the int damage on the bombs, but lose the extra int damage on other other thrown weapons.

I believe that the extra bonus is just to help out a little on the other types of thrown weapons.

**

I believe that Alchemist's keep the int damage on the bombs, because it says in their damage description that the bomb is 1d6+int modifier.

While we're on this very strange class: Why is this class able to get the extra Ki feat as a discovery? And don't they need a Ki pool before they can even take it? Are they supposed to be able to use Ki? Even if you're multiclassing, there's really nothing stopping you from taking that as a feat anyways.

GodsDMit, you really find the strangest archetypes available :P

Andoran *****

Tarma dont bash this idea, dood. You know it's gonna be great fun when I'm running around going "One more thing!" and telling people to drink this thing I just concocted out of maples leaves and a root cause it will make them feel better. :P

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
godsDMit wrote:

I think I agree with what you are saying, Vinyc, but disagree with how you are saying it, if that makes sense.

Im actually hoping for an official word, though I realize those dont always happen. :/

Let's put it this way. If two archetypes target the same ability, you can't stack them at all. No matter how the ability is being altered by either.

**

godsDMit wrote:
Tarma dont bash this idea, dood. You know it's gonna be great fun when I'm running around going "One more thing!" and telling people to drink this thing I just concocted out of maples leaves and a root cause it will make them feel better. :P

I'm not knocking the idea at all. I'm just saying that it's very....odd :P

Although, immune to both disease and poison is pretty awesome.....

Taldor

I would say that while how I can see how RAW could be interpreted that disease resistance is reliant on poison resistance, personally, I feel that RAI is pretty clear: disease resistance is equal to what the alchemist's poison resistance would be at the same level - regardless of what the actual poison resistance is, or if the character even has it. In short, the abilities mimic each other, but do not rely on each other. No connection at all.

At the very least, that's how I would rule in my own game. Of course, you are asking about PFS, so I would lean towards the "ambiguity = no" post someone said earlier. At least until we get official word saying otherwise.

@Tarma: Concerning your inquiry about why internal alchemists can get Extra Ki, first off it's a bonus feat and - exceptions aside (fighter bonus feats being a notable one) - bonus feats generally can be gained even when the character doesn't necessarily qualify. Many ranger feats, as well as the monk's own Stunning Fist spring to mind.
As for why they get it flavour-wise, the internal alchemist reminds me of Daoist alchemists who are almost more mystics than what Westerners would normally consider alchemists. Their aim was more inner harmony and immortality than turning lead into gold.

EDIT: Ah woops... I kinda forgot it's 2013 now. Sorry for the necro. ^^'

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