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Wish or Miracle: which is more powerful?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion Subscriber

In before someone's "but Efreeti will grant those wishes in most evil, twisted way possible, you can't just throw them around!" and Ashiel's "Nonsense, such arbitrary curbstomping of wish is a sure sign of a d**ck GM using his rule 0 power mania to hamper the players!".

Player Advocacy vs. GM Supremacy. ROUND TWO!


FuelDrop wrote:

the philosophy of 'breaking' the game seems a bit wierd to me. after all, isn't the point of playing the game to have fun with your mates, not to 'win pathfinder'?

i can totally see why it's fun to discuss and theorise about, but where's the fun in being able to take on the gods single-handed in a head-on assult at level 3? taking that kind of theorycraft into the game is a mindset i'm afraid i just don't understand.
unlimited wishes (for purposes other than buffing ability scores, which isn't really gamebreaking at even mid-levels) just removes a lot of the fun from the game to my mind, and for that reason if it ever came up in a game i was running i'd ask the players to please stop, as it will make the game less fun when they can just wish their adventures over.

i'd be willing to give it a try if all the players were eager to, but if it obviously wasn't working then i'd put my foot down and put an end to it.

Well to be fair, you can't wish your way through most adventures. Especially 13th+ level adventures. Just wouldn't work. Wish doesn't do just anything. It's pretty clearly defined what you can expect out of it. Most of that is mimicing lower level spells, rewinding recent tragedy, etc. Much of that is pretty useless if you're in the comfort of your planar binding sanctuary. Getting the efreeti to follow you around on your dangerous journey to grant CL 11 wishes as desired is kind of foolish. He or she probably wouldn't consider that quite the nice deal as getting a wish for themselves for 18 seconds of their time.

Likewise, I realize that your commentary about killing gods are 3rd level is a obviously tongue in cheek, but that's not quite fair either. My games traditionally use 15 point buy as is standard (my online games use 25 because few will complain about it). The gods of my world either have no stats (because they have no real power), or are generally around CR 25-30. I can only recall a single instance in my entire history of GMing that a player went after a deity, and it was a lesser deity, and it was actually a plot relevant point because they had reached 21st level and they were asked by some of the gods to help with some planar problems being orchestrated by some of the evil gods.

Do you find it funny that even in a game where PCs can reach 20 < level, and can make planar allies to grant them wishes as early as 13th level (possibly with friendly side-quests), that the PCs are challenged by enemies who are relatively mundane? NPCs using NPC wealth by level, bestiary monsters, and just basic core stuff? Foes with 3 to 15 point buy? Does it somehow sicken you to think that AM BARBARIAN wouldn't make me flinch, and yet I prefer encounters between APL-2 and APL+3, more or less by the book? Would it surprise you if I said my games get harder as the level increases, despite all of these things; and yet I use really basic obstacles?

3.x/Pathfinder is really hard. RAGELANCEPOUNCE wouldn't cause me to bat an eyelash, nor is it new (it's been around in 3.5 for half a decade easily). People on these boards seem to freak out and react to these things like they are new or somehow overwhelming. I smile and nod, and giggle, because I know better.


Gorbacz wrote:

In before someone's "but Efreeti will grant those wishes in most evil, twisted way possible, you can't just throw them around!" and Ashiel's "Nonsense, such arbitrary curbstomping of wish is a sure sign of a d**ck GM using his rule 0 power mania to hamper the players!".

Player Advocacy vs. GM Supremacy. ROUND TWO!

*buys stock in Clash of the Nerds Arena Rumbles*


Ashiel wrote:
Hyla wrote:
Well infinite cash and effectively playing with PB 50 or so CAN be done. Its just not the game as its usually played. And people who play it differently as you are not afraid. They just adhere more closely to the spirit of the rules. Free wishes at level 13 are NOT the norm in 99.9% of the games.

Of course, wish was heavily nerfed, and thus you can't get infinite cash anyway; so the only broken thing is now a non-issue. Funny that, aye? σ_σ

You fail to acknowledge that +5 to all stats is a big deal and the notion that it was not intended for every 13th level party to get that is perfectly reasonable.


Gorbacz wrote:

In before someone's "but Efreeti will grant those wishes in most evil, twisted way possible, you can't just throw them around!" and Ashiel's "Nonsense, such arbitrary curbstomping of wish is a sure sign of a d**ck GM using his rule 0 power mania to hamper the players!".

Player Advocacy vs. GM Supremacy. ROUND TWO!

Please stop trolling, we are having a discussion here.


Hyla wrote:


We were talking about efreet. They can grant wishes even if they are not noble.

Hyla and Ashiel--

I owe you both an apology-- here 'tis.

I'm not sure how I missed it, but I read that page 5 times today, checking and rechecking because of this discussion, and didn't see the "three wishes" entry under the standard line for Efreeti until the 6th time when I went back and looked at it just now.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion Subscriber
Hyla wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

In before someone's "but Efreeti will grant those wishes in most evil, twisted way possible, you can't just throw them around!" and Ashiel's "Nonsense, such arbitrary curbstomping of wish is a sure sign of a d**ck GM using his rule 0 power mania to hamper the players!".

Player Advocacy vs. GM Supremacy. ROUND TWO!

Please stop trolling, we are having a discussion here.

I'm not trolling. I'm showing that both you and Ashiel are entrenched in your respective camps, and neither of these camps is something that I subscribe to.

The fact that you react hostlie to any attempt to point that out only confirms my observations. :*


Gorbacz wrote:
Hyla wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

In before someone's "but Efreeti will grant those wishes in most evil, twisted way possible, you can't just throw them around!" and Ashiel's "Nonsense, such arbitrary curbstomping of wish is a sure sign of a d**ck GM using his rule 0 power mania to hamper the players!".

Player Advocacy vs. GM Supremacy. ROUND TWO!

Please stop trolling, we are having a discussion here.

I'm not trolling. I'm showing that both you and Ashiel are entrenched in your respective camps, and neither of these camps is something that I subscribe to.

The fact that you react hostlie to any attempt to point that out only confirms my observations. :*

I pointed out to you before that reality is not as clear cut as you provokingly implied.

I am in no "camp", certainly not in the "rule 0 rules all" camp. You try to categorize people here in a decidedly binary or black-white fashion. And you are surprised that p*ss*s them off?


All the world is a binary on one side we have me (white) and over there is everyone else (black) they are out to screw me every way they can. Look at them lurking there in their cloaks plotting how they can get 3 wishes out of me . . . Of course there's also the possibility you've nabbed a drunk efreeti who's genuinely trying to help you when he grants you that wish you made to give you a bigger rooster than the guy next door.

On topic as it were if an efreeti can twist the wish it grants to screw the player why can't a wizard twist the wish she grants to help them?


Finn Kveldulfr wrote:
Hyla wrote:


We were talking about efreet. They can grant wishes even if they are not noble.

Hyla and Ashiel--

I owe you both an apology-- here 'tis.

I'm not sure how I missed it, but I read that page 5 times today, checking and rechecking because of this discussion, and didn't see the "three wishes" entry under the standard line for Efreeti until the 6th time when I went back and looked at it just now.

S'all good Finn. ^-^

Hyla wrote:
You fail to acknowledge that +5 to all stats is a big deal and the notion that it was not intended for every 13th level party to get that is perfectly reasonable.

That's 'cause +5 to all stats isn't a big deal. It's +2.5 to modifiers. Whoopty-doo. σ_σ

Nobody said every party. Not every party is going to have a full-caster in it. I've run games for plenty of groups that had no full arcane caster. Some casters just don't care. If the PCs decide to go about it, then sure, have your +2.5.

I could just as easily dance around and say "you fail to acknowledge that +2.5 is not a big deal and the notion that it wasn't intended for a 13th level party to get is silly".

You get more mojo out of a potion of enlarge person. :P

============

Also, Gorbacz, I lurv ya dude. I don't think you're trollin'. I think you're funny. :D


+2-3 mod to all stats ist +2/3 to all saves, to spell DCs, to hit, +20-30 to HP (at that point in progression) etc. etc.

Its a big deal, easily the equivalent of 1-2 lvls in terms of power.


Hyla wrote:

+2-3 mod to all stats ist +2/3 to all saves, to spell DCs, to hit, +20-30 to HP (at that point in progression) etc. etc.

Its a big deal, easily the equivalent of 1-2 lvls in terms of power.

Yeah. It favors martials, incidentally. The +2 to all saves is way nicer to them than it is for the SAD casters. Also, it's not even a proper advaned template, so it's not even worth +1 level in terms of raw power. The extra HP is probably the nicest bit, but seriously at 13th+ level, 23 HP is being able to survive one more hit.

Not even close to a real level in terms of power. Real levels come with a bit more than measily bonuses, which are very "meh" by 13th level. Is it nice? Damn right it is. Is it game breaking? Heck no!

Now if you want to talk about broken, let's discuss how the Wizard can legally make a pet Terrasque if he wants to, and let the fighter ride on him. Screw caster/martial disparity. This fighter has a Terrasque for a mount. Wheeee! 彡☆

EDIT: Actually, I'd rather not continue this argument further Hyla. Neither of us are really getting anywhere. We both obviously just have different tolerance levels, and I don't think our fighting about it is very productive.

Peace, yo? ヽ(´ー`)┌


+2 or +3 to all spell save DCs is huge.

I won't even comment on that "legal tarrasque as pet" issue.


Gorbacz wrote:
Hyla wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

Player Advocacy Movement vs. GM Overlordship Association.

FIIIIGHT!

Err. No.

Yep!

"Players have full control over their spells, if Mister Cavern tries to limit that he's a rule-0 control freak" vs. "Game Master has control over everything, it's his prerogative".

The crux of many arguments here and there is the clash between these two visions of how RPGs should play out.

Several players say i can do "X" by RAW, but they should say I can do "X" by RAIAW (rules as I interpret are written)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion Subscriber

RAITTSBIROWAES?

(Rules As I Think They Should Be Interpreted Regardless Of What Anybody Else Says)

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