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Killing an Old Black Dragon at level 7


Advice

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7 players, all level 7. Ninja, Inquisitor, Paladin, Druid (Feral), Summoner, Wizard, Oracle.

Can it be done with no casualties?

What are your recommendations?

Imagine they have about 10,000 expendable gold at the moment.


My suggestions would be to damage it's dexterity, or try to stagger it...

Sovereign Court

your look at high AC, High Sr and High Damage all from it. If you don't go in with a lot of acid resistance and buffs your not going to really be able to touch the thing. Touch attacks are really your friend in this kind of fight. Tanglefoot Bags and other things that can help trip it up and lower it's effectiveness will help.

If you all had rifles and were trained in their use you might all survive, baring that it's very unlikely.

If your going to actually try fighting it on its home turf your even more unlikely to survive at all.


By "Druid (Feral)" I'm assuming you mean a druid who battles in melee wildshaped. If not, I'm not sure what it means.

Done with no casualties? Sure, you could get really lucky. Throw enough summoned monsters and animals at it and you might be able to keep it's fifteen foot bite from hitting your squishies...

Buff that paladin up as much as you can. Summon some creatures that the dragon can't ignore. Rhinos would be a good choice for your druid.

Get a wand of resist energy, or some potions or scrolls. Tie it down with web, entangle, etc. (A favorite tactic of mine in the old days was to overlay spells like web, entangle and earthbind... If one didn't get it, the other one would...)

10,000 gold? Hire a dragon-specialist ranger to help. I happen to have one who might be interested... ;-)


KaptainKrunch wrote:

7 players, all level 7. Ninja, Inquisitor, Paladin, Druid (Feral), Summoner, Wizard, Oracle.

Can it be done with no casualties?

What are your recommendations?

Imagine they have about 10,000 expendable gold at the moment.

1) Get a shadow (CR 3) via either create greater undead from an NPC spellcaster or by finding it during your adventures.

2) Use command undead spell or feat to gain control of the shadow.
3) Buy chickens at 2 cp a chicken.
4) Have your pet shadow slay said chickens turning them into shadows under your shadow's control.
5) Have your shadow's minions swarm the dragon. Without immunity to ability damage, its poor touch AC does little to avoid the shadows and their perfect flight and ability damaging touch. Dragon dies at 0 strength.
6) Dispose of shadows as desired, if desired. Seeing as they are only CR 3 creatures, an AoE damaging effect that deals 19+ damage can be rid of whichever ones the dragon doesn't kill.

EDIT: Actually in PF it has to be a humanoid that is killed to turn into a shadow (in 3.x it wasn't as specific). In this case, you just might need more create undead spells, and a few corpses of some orcs you slew once upon ago.


Interesting Ashiel...

However, using the same basic logic that summoned creatures can't summon other creatures, I would probably rule as a GM that a summoned shadow can't create shadows.

Specifically to avoid exploits like this... ;-)


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Any of them have Craft Wondrous Item? If you were 9th-level you could just make some dust of sneezing and choking. Throw that in the dragon's face, then have your ninja coup de grace it with the Dastardly Finish feat.

Kills every dragon dead automatically. Well, just about every living creature too, but that's besides the point.

Since you're not 9th-level, you can't get the coup de grace with the Dastardly Finish feat, but you can use multiple doses of dust of choking and sneezing to keep the dragon perpetually stun-locked while you slowly take him apart with more traditional abilities.


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Shadow wasn't summoned. It was created. Its legal afaik. Although I am saddened greatly at the discovery that the army of shadow chickens cannot be.


Well, with the Paladin's smite, they should be good, the Ninja can have greater invis cast on him to be effective, the Inquisitor uses his bane ability, the Summoner does what his name implies, Wizard is good for haste, resist energy(communal), mass enlarge person, etc. Druid can summon/buff and cast spit venom (no SR, Fort save negates poison, but NOT blindness), and the Oracle keeps everyone in fighting shape.


A little more seriously...

Resist energy (acid) on everyone.
Freedom of movement on everyone.
Lesser globe of invulnerability wards vs dragon's sorcerer spells.
Minor creation can be used to drench undead minions in black lotus extract, which is a very potent poison that works on contact (so if the dragon bites the undead, steps on them, slaps them with his tail, etc, then the dragon can be afflicted). Poison-immune PCs work too (such as monks).
Ray of exhaustion is almost assured to hit, and will at least fatigue the dragon, preventing it from running or charging, along with hitting it for penalties in melee.
Stoneskin along with freedom of movement cast on your martials can allow them to melee with the dragon, since the dragon likely won't be wielding adamantine weapons.
Entangle, spike growth and stone spikes makes the ground a bad place to be. Sleet storm and wind wall makes the air a bad place to be.
Fly on your martial characters.


KaptainKrunch wrote:

7 players, all level 7. Ninja, Inquisitor, Paladin, Druid (Feral), Summoner, Wizard, Oracle.

Can it be done with no casualties?

What are your recommendations?

Imagine they have about 10,000 expendable gold at the moment.

Time stop scroll and a keg of dynamite.

Alternately, wait til it's sleeping.


Ravingdork wrote:

Any of them have Craft Wondrous Item? If you were 9th-level you could just make some dust of sneezing and choking. Throw that in the dragon's face, then have your ninja coup de grace it with the Dastardly Finish feat.

Kills every dragon dead automatically. Well, just about every living creature too, but that's besides the point.

Since you're not 9th-level, you can't get the coup de grace with the Dastardly Finish feat, but you can use multiple doses of dust of choking and sneezing to keep the dragon perpetually stun-locked while you slowly take him apart with more traditional abilities.

What an interesting idea. What are all the possible ways to stun and/or cower?


@ Ashiel

Unfortunately, the Old Black Dragon has Spell resistance 25, which is pretty nasty for a 7th level caster. However, The Wizard can absolutely buff the party with all kinds of good stuff, and perhaps start things off with an invisibility sphere. Of course, the 32 AC is pretty high, so we're not talking auto-hit, but the blinding via druid's spit venom (he should do this all the time, every time) will reduce it to a 30 AC, open him to sneak attacks, and help the party avoid his attacks.


Jak the Looney Alchemist wrote:
Shadow wasn't summoned. It was created. Its legal afaik. Although I am saddened greatly at the discovery that the army of shadow chickens cannot be.

Indeed. Shadows can beget other shadows. In fact, they never summon anything. Create greater undead creates a shadow, which you can control via different methods (either command undead feat, spells, or work a partnership with Diplomacy). That's just how it is. While A.D. might consider it an abuse, I consider it old news. This is old. Like a controlled wightocolypse, really.

In fact, for some S & Gs, you could always turn your party's rogue into a shadow. He'd lose 3 class levels due to becoming a CR 3 creature, but you can get your rogue levels back (some of them immediately since you still have your XP total). Shadow or wraith rogues can be pretty spiffy. Talk about sneaky! They can pass through floors and ceilings while using Stealth, get their sneak attack on with touch attacks (dealing ability damage + xd6 real damage), and incorporeality is pretty nice as a general defense against most incoming attacks (most deal .5 damage, while non-magic attacks deal 0 damage). Arm the rogue with some ghost touch weapons and armor and you're in business.

Your rogue can then create more shadows or wraiths under him as needed. It's kind of like being a shadow dancer, but cooler (admittedly, not being able to carry gear is a pain in the butt, but hey, you're an incorporeal undead, so don't worry about it so much). If you ever get tired of being an incorporeal undead, then raise dead plus restoration and you're good as new.

EDIT: Ravingdork's idea for the dusk of choking and sneezing is probably the easiest and best method for just crushing the dragon and making it look like it was easy. :)


galahad2112 wrote:

@ Ashiel

Unfortunately, the Old Black Dragon has Spell resistance 25, which is pretty nasty for a 7th level caster. However, The Wizard can absolutely buff the party with all kinds of good stuff, and perhaps start things off with an invisibility sphere. Of course, the 32 AC is pretty high, so we're not talking auto-hit, but the blinding via druid's spit venom (he should do this all the time, every time) will reduce it to a 30 AC, open him to sneak attacks, and help the party avoid his attacks.

You'll notice that the only spell I suggested that even offered spell resistance was ray of exhaustion, and that's just because if they do beat SR (assuming spell penetration / greater penetration for a +11, which beats SR on a 14) it auto-fatigues it regardless of saving throw.


@ Ashiel

Spike growth, spike stones, wind wall all offer SR.


you have at least three, and possibly four characters capable of summoning. the logical tactic that this implies is to spam summons and keep him distracted while the paladin and ninja get into position. blink on the paladin and the ninja would be a good tactic as it's a 50% miss chance that the dragon can't ignore with blindsight, allowing them to survive twice as long if the dragon tries to om nom nom them.
as to what to summon... lantern archons are your friends. have the summoner throw one up before combat starts and get it to cast aid on every one, then when combat begins in earnist your druid throws down melee monsters to support your paladin and ninja while your summoner and wizard spam lanterns (2 ranged touch attacks each, ignoring all damage reduction and energy resistance.
i'd recommend a communal resist/protection from energy (acid) for either the first round of combat or preferably just before you go in. the fight's not going to last ten minutes so the split duration isn't going to hurt you and it means that a single spell slot will cover the whole party in a single standard action.
if the feral druid insists on getting up close and personal may i suggest the frostbite spell, augmented with a lesser rod of rime metamagic? each hit deals some extra damage (an extra 1d6+7 to be precise) with no spell resistance or save and causes both fatigue and entangled conditions (net penalties: -2 str, -6 dex, -2 attack, half speed, can't run or charge, must make concentration checks to cast spells).

EDIT: Edited for superior spelling 2.0
if you've got some way to punch through spell resistance then ray of enfeeblement may serve you well, as even if you assume the dragon saves for half it'll be giving a -3 to -5 penalty to strength (translation= -2 or -3 to hit and damage).


Just do everything possible to keep the pally up.

Star Voter 2013

It would be dificult in a direct fight, specially if the dragon is in his swamp.

- The dragon can cast Alarm to notice intruders.
- it have a good steatlh bonus, if he strike first he wins.
- it have a very high perception, it would be dificult to surprise (specially with glitterdust).
- Speak with animals. the dragon could have sentinels across the swamp.
- if the party does not have reedom of movement, then cruhs of grapple (CMB 29)+ fly or graplle+ be underwater can kill the party one by one.
- he is old, if he had survived all this years he should know when to scape is better, He can swin he can fly he can come back later when resit energy and freedom of moevement both have expired.
- dispel magic to dispel the lesser globe of invurnerablity

I do not know if een ravingdork advice coul work, the ragon seems to be inmune to paralisys.

Star Voter 2013

FuelDrop wrote:


i'd recommend a communal resist/protection from energy (acid) for either the first round of combat or preferably just before you go in. the fight's not going to last ten minutes so the split duration isn't going to hurt you...

a big assumption, with Swamp Stride the dragon can run away while the party can no math his speed. and is not unreasonable that the dragon have several underwater refuges.


Risky and expensive, but:

Scroll of Summon Monster 9: 3,825 GP.

A CR 14 summoned ally should help considerably against a CR 14 Old black dragon. (alternatively, something like d4+1 greater air elementals might be an even better choice).

Buy 2 scrolls, hope one of them makes their caster level check to cast the high level scroll. Use any and all re-roll and roll bonus (hero points?) abilities at your disposal to succeed at the caster level check.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ashiel wrote:
Ravingdork's idea for the dusk of choking and sneezing is probably the easiest and best method for just crushing the dragon and making it look like it was easy. :)

I was being quite serious with my response before, Ashiel.

In an old campaign, our 10th-level party was twice annihilated by a vengeful great red wyrm, whose master and rider we had killed. Each time, only my wizard survived, so that when the other players created new characters, they would get caught in the crossfire when the dragon came around again to "finish the job."

Needless to say, I had to get creative in order to save the campaign. That's how I came up with this combo. It was one of the few things the dragon couldn't simply "limited wish" away (something that actually happened when the party ambushed the dragon at night with harvested green slime, a plan we thought full proof).

I never got to try out the combo though. The GM got wind of what we were planning and simply opted to never host another game for that particular campaign again.

What. A. Deutschbag.


So...

Can you deliberately create cursed items? I looked through the rules and see lots of stuff on creating magic items, but the only description of creating cursed items was on a failed creation attempt.

Can you deliberately create them?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

A GM might say no for obvious balance reasons, but RAW there is no reason you wouldn't be able to.


Ravingdork wrote:
Why wouldn't you be able to?

Because there is no RAW that says you can?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

They are magic items just like any other. RAW you use the same rules of creation (edit: when deliberately crafting them that is).


Ashiel wrote:

Indeed. Shadows can beget other shadows. In fact, they never summon anything. Create greater undead creates a shadow, which you can control via different methods (either command undead feat, spells, or work a partnership with Diplomacy). That's just how it is. While A.D. might consider it an abuse, I consider it old news. This is old. Like a controlled wightocolypse, really.

HOWEVER, create spawn only works on humanoids so the chicken thing is right out. Commoners work just fine, but using them has an unpleasant tendency to bring annoying, interfering paladins and the like unless you're discrete about it.

EDIT: Err...note to self - read more edits.


Ravingdork wrote:
They are magic items just like any other. RAW you use the same rules of creation (edit: when deliberately crafting them that is).

They are NOT magic items like any other. They are cursed. They are defined in RAW as only being created randomly when you fail to create something un-cursed.

Your example of this dust of sneezing, which is an instant-win item that can be crafted for chump change is an excellent example of why you can't create them.

There is no way this item was balanced against crafted items. It's far too powerful.

But beyond all that, what spells do you use to create this item RD?


Oh, and before you reply "well, I will deliberately fail my craft item checks" I will say that if you did that with me as the GM, for the specific purpose of pursuing an exploit and getting a 10% chance of an insta-win cursed item, I'd just say "No problem, your sloppy and deliberately incompetent work results in a waste of your time and materials. Care to try again?"


Craft the item and deliberately fail (take a 1)... it may not be exactly the cursed item you were hoping for, but make enough of them and you are bound to get a few... how many choices could their be for that particular type of item?

@Adamantine Dragon if you did that i would walk away from the table... just because you don't like that someone came up with a creative solution that is spelled out as working RAW doesn't mean you can change the rules of the game on the fly... you may be DM, but that doesn't (contrary to popular belief) make you god of the table.

If you wanted to get rid of that rule completely that would be fine, just say so before the campaign begins and I would have no qualms with it.


Stubs McKenzie wrote:
Craft the item and deliberately fail (take a 1)... it may not be exactly the cursed item you were hoping for, but make enough of them and you are bound to get a few... how many choices could their be for that particular type of item?

See above, if I was your GM and you tried this, I would rule that you simply wasted your time and money. Besides, this is crafting, not attacking. A "1" is not an auto-fail.


I completely agree, 1 is not an auto fail on skill checks, but I would hazard a guess that i could intentionally fail just about any skill check imaginable... jump that 2 inch gap.... whoops! didnt make it, i fell over. What color is on this card? Light urple?


Stubs McKenzie wrote:
I completely agree, 1 is not an auto fail on skill checks, but I would hazard a guess that i could intentionally fail just about any skill check imaginable... jump that 2 inch gap.... whoops! didnt make it, i fell over. What color is on this card? Light urple?

And I would rule that if you deliberately fail, you didn't actually make an "attempt."


Attempt to craft the item at CL 100. You will assuredly fail.

Star Voter 2013

I wonder what would be the anwer of a 10th level Pcs if kobolds start to using those dust of sneezing + oil + fire.

If that were a normal magic item we all should agree that it is overpowered, too much overpowered, why to argue if the DM banned it?

EDIT: correted a couple of typos


Nicos wrote:

I wonder what would the anwer of a 10th level Pcs if kobolds start to using those dust of sneezing + oil + fire.

If that were a magic iteem we all should agree that it is overpowered, too much overpowered, why to argue if the DM banned it?

The evil GM in me just started thinking of the possibilities... ... ...

XD


Another case of "Why does this GM want to slaughter his pc's?" I don't think this carried over from 3.5 to pathfinder, but in 3.5, any encounter which was an EL 6 higher than the highest class level in the party was considered to be "impossible", and if the party beat that encounter, they would get no XP, because it would be considered extreme fluke of luck for them to win, and not due to actual skill in playing their characters. This is a monster with a CR 7 higher than the highest level character. Why?


Dust of Sneezing and Choking is a horrifically broken item, if anyone at all were concerned with balance, there wouldn't even be an argument about if you can purposefully make cursed items. The dust would be perma-banned from the game, and that'd nip the whole idea in the bud. Seriously, there's a lot of broken crap in the game, but that one takes the freaking gold medal.

As for Feral Druid, I assume the OP meant the Feral template from Savage Species. Which is also stupidly brokenly overpowered, though doesn't hold a candle to the dust, I suppose...


Do the players know that they are going to be fighting a dragon? Because I can think of a lot to do involving defeating a dragon with 10,000gp and 4th level divine and arcane spells at my disposal if I have time to plan.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Oh, and before you reply "well, I will deliberately fail my craft item checks" I will say that if you did that with me as the GM, for the specific purpose of pursuing an exploit and getting a 10% chance of an insta-win cursed item, I'd just say "No problem, your sloppy and deliberately incompetent work results in a waste of your time and materials. Care to try again?"

I wasn't going to say that at all.

It seems simple enough to me. You simply treat it identically to creating dust of disappearance or dust of tracelessness (since that's what it's based on) using their costs, CL, spellcraft DC, spell prerequisites, etc.

If you beat the check, you get your cursed item (since that's what you were going for), not the base item. If you fail the check than you either end up with the base item or a DIFFERENT cursed item than intended.

It's still plenty dangerous, as that necklace of strangulation you sent as a gift to the local lord may only serve to protect him from poisons instead, or worse, turn on you somehow because its curse differed from expectations.

Evil NPCs deliberately create cursed items ALL THE TIME. I see no reason PCs shouldn't be allowed to do it from time to time (provided they aren't out to break the game and ruin fun for all).


Ravingdork wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Oh, and before you reply "well, I will deliberately fail my craft item checks" I will say that if you did that with me as the GM, for the specific purpose of pursuing an exploit and getting a 10% chance of an insta-win cursed item, I'd just say "No problem, your sloppy and deliberately incompetent work results in a waste of your time and materials. Care to try again?"

I wasn't going to say that at all.

It seems simple enough to me. You simply treat it identically to creating dust of disappearance or dust of tracelessness (since that's what it's based on) using their costs, CL, spellcraft DC, spell prerequisites, etc.

If you beat the check, you get your cursed item (since that's what you were going for), not the base item. If you fail the check than you either end up with the base item or a DIFFERENT cursed item than intended.

It's still plenty dangerous, as that necklace of strangulation you sent as a gift to the local lord may only serve to protect him from poisons instead, or worse, turn on you somehow because its curse differed from expectations.

Evil NPCs deliberately create cursed items ALL THE TIME. I see no reason PCs shouldn't be allowed to do it from time to time (provided they aren't out to break the game and ruin fun for all).

Let's not forget that according to lore in BG I & II, drow would purposefully gift gauntlets/gloves of fumbling to people they wanted to screw over. :P

In fact, in my of my games, the party was "paid" in cursed items by some guys who were supposed to capture them, and attempted to do so by hiring them for a seemingly typical purpose, and then gifting them with fumbling gloves; which the party took at face value and immediately put on.

EDIT: And once again, you can attempt to make an item way beyond what you can really make. The DC to craft the item is 5 + CL of the item +5 for every requirement you do not meet. You can make an item with a lower or higher caster level, as long as the caster level at least meets the lowest caster level required to cast a required spell (if any). Essentially, if you want to assuredly make a cursed item, attempt to craft it at X levels beyond your own, so that when taking 10 you can curse it.

That's assuming your GM somehow thinks that you can't purposefully fail a skill check (I'm sure a rogue can purposefully fail an acrobatics check, a merfolk can purposefully fail a swim check, etc).

Also, it amuses me that the dust of choking and coughing, which while horrible is only usable in a 20ft. radius from where a person scatters the consumable item. It's pretty bad, but there are worse things out and about in the core rulebook, certainly.

The use of cursed items is not a new one. The cursed sword of berserking is a great example. It grants benefits and drawbacks of a barbarian rage, and people have been using those swords for ages. The murder-miester drawback isn't that bad when your warrior of choice keeps his distance from you. 'Cause let's face it, why wouldn't a Fighter like the option to draw a sword and suddenly get +4 Str/+4 Con, +2 Wis until his foes or he is dead? >.>


NPCs make all sorts of things that PCs don't make. Artifacts, for instance.

I am more than happy to work with a player who wants his character to create a cursed item. But to utilize an obvious exploit to do it is not going to fly in my campaigns.

And it's probably going to take at least one casting of the spell "bestow curse" as part of the creation.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

NPCs make all sorts of things that PCs don't make. Artifacts, for instance.

I am more than happy to work with a player who wants his character to create a cursed item. But to utilize an obvious exploit to do it is not going to fly in my campaigns.

And it's probably going to take at least one casting of the spell "bestow curse" as part of the creation.

Adamantine Dragon, I like you and all, but from what I've seen not much anything is going to fly in your campaigns. Everything from food to dust is broken and needs to cost a bajillion gp. :P

EDIT: Truthfully though, any old dragon worth his salt is going to be sporting a few magic items of his own in which to deal with annoying little adventurers, and you do have to be within 20 ft. of the dragon to activate the dust; which effectively puts you in range of his very impressive reach, and he likely has snatch, which puts you on the menu. :3

Let's not forget the fact that the dragon's lair is going to be a hell-hole for anyone who dares face him on his own field. The traps alone would be devastating. The dragon can happily fill his lair with all manner of terrible resetting traps that turn his lair into a hellstorm of scorching rays, magic missiles, darkness, continual flames, and all kinds of horrible effects that the dragon is simply immune to because his SR is 25 and their CLs are 4 or less.

EDIT 2: Also traps that keep spamming blindness on everything are Bad (TM). Even at the dinky DC 13 for your basic CL 3rd trap, your PCs can still roll poorly or hit a critical failure and end up blind for the rest of their (now likely very short) lives.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

The problem is, you really can't create a specific cursed item. You can create a cursed item on purpose, but you really can not choose how it is cursed. That is in the realm of the DM, and a few random rolls. You can try to create a Dust of Sneezing and Choking, but the item may just change a creature's gender. There really shouldn't be any thing stopping a player, other than the luck of the draw.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

By "Druid (Feral)" I'm assuming you mean a druid who battles in melee wildshaped. If not, I'm not sure what it means.

I mean a druid patterned after Treantmonk's suggestion to focus on wildshape and go into melee.

Sorry, World of Warcraft kind of leaked in there.


Actually Stubs, I would say that the DM is god of their table and is perfectly entitled to change rules on the fly with their own group (although I know some people don't agree with this (obviously)). I would generally work with a player and if a player wants to do something clever (like the dust of sneezing and choking thing) they would be well advised to run it past me in advance because I am much more likely to ban something if it's a surprise for me. Many are the arguments that I have had both as player and GM over what the rules actually say/mean. As a player I am 100% comfortable with a GM who says 'ok, you've convinced me they say what you think they say, but we're doing it this way', and I am 100% comfortable to say that. On the other hand, I've been playing with the same group of people for a quarter of a century and we're used to each other. My personal preference, prob. like Adamantine, is to be very conservative about what flies. But I always remember that it isn't a competition between the GM and players, it's a shared game.

Getting back to the 'fighting the dragon' - unless you completely get the drop on it (or your GM intends you to kill it), an old dragon played to its abilities is going to mince 7th level characters. If you DO get the drop on it, the key thing you need to do is stop it flying. Otherwise any plan that relies on summons and buffs fails because it flies off for a few rounds then comes back and breathes on you. (Of course that might mean you can grab its hoard and teleport away). We've been playing Dragonlance for the last six years, many are the dragons that have fallen before us, but we still haven't found a good way of beating a flying dragon (except riding another dragon, and then the problem is that you're just a hanger on). Recently, at the far end of the campaign (11th level), we came up against a very old black dragon. We got the drop on it in a room in which it couldn't fly and we beat it, but we think we only beat it because we had an old silver dragon fighting on our side (we were pretty well spelled out) - the GM thinks we could have handled it and regrets giving us the assistance. 7th? Start rolling up new characters and like Mabven ask why your GM hates you.

I do like the 'army of shadows' idea though - that's extremely clever.


KaptainKrunch wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:

By "Druid (Feral)" I'm assuming you mean a druid who battles in melee wildshaped. If not, I'm not sure what it means.

I mean a druid patterned after Treantmonk's suggestion to focus on wildshape and go into melee.

Sorry, World of Warcraft kind of leaked in there.

Which is entirely fair. WoW basically grabbed druids whole cart minus animal companions. Hell, if you took WoW druids and gave them the hunter's pet, you would have 3.5/PF Druids. :P


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:
You can try to create a Dust of Sneezing and Choking, but the item may just change a creature's gender. There really shouldn't be any thing stopping a player, other than the luck of the draw.

The way I'd see it, you have a 1 in 3 chance under the worst rules interpretation.

1. You end up with a normal magical item, such as dust of disappearance or dust of tracelessness.
2. You end up with the above, but it is cursed so as to not function properly, intermittently, or whatever.
3. You end up with dust of choking and sneezing.

Those aren't bad odds whatsoever, considering how cheap it is.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

NPCs make all sorts of things that PCs don't make. Artifacts, for instance.

I am more than happy to work with a player who wants his character to create a cursed item. But to utilize an obvious exploit to do it is not going to fly in my campaigns.

And it's probably going to take at least one casting of the spell "bestow curse" as part of the creation.

On a side note, if there is an NPC who can craft an artifact in my games, then that means the PCs can too. They just find out how the NPC did it, and then go from there.

Ever watch full-metal alchemist? It's basically a really great series about alchemist-mages who basically use spell components and magic diagrams to create powerful magical effects or wildly transform things into other stuff because it's vaguely similar in substance. One guy wears a glove with flint in it so he can snap his fingers to produce a flame, and then transmutes that little flame into flamethrower-like super-destruction.

Of course, half the time they're questing for the method of producing the philosopher's stone, which is a legendary item of great power, supposedly capable of breaking the normal laws of their alchemy/magic. Of course, turns out there's a lot that goes into creating said stone, and a lot of it is dark, etc, etc, etc.

To me, the creation of an artifact is similar to the destruction. It's very unique. Artifacts are those items you don't make in your typical laboratory, or at lunch while traveling, or whatever. Could you make normal magic items that are comparable in power to artifacts? Absolutely, given enough time, resources, and skill; but they'd never be true artifacts. Those would be the types of items that you have to go on long quests chains to acquire, to learn the secrets to forging it, then to actually forge it.

"Behold Skyrender the World Carver! Forged from the minerals embedded in an ancient dragon's hide, worked in the fires of an active volcano, tempered by the hammer of an astral deva and quenched in the blood of a mortal who was loved by a demon! You shall fall here today, for nothing between heaven and hell can withstand the Skyrender's blade, and even the gods tremble for fear of its bite!"

The way I look at it, NPCs can't make artifacts either. That's the point of artifacts. They are as much plot hooks or story devices as they are items. You could replace "Artifact" with "Mcguffin" and have pretty much the same meaning. If an NPC can make an artifact, then naturally so could the PCs, if they went through the effort.

That's called having a believable world. Anything else shatters verisimilitude like so much fine china in a rodeo.


There are a couple of good suggestions in this thread: I especially like the idea to summonIX via scrolls and the basic use of buffs like resist energy and stoneskin.
That said, if the dragon is even a little bit smart, you have no chance.
Such a dragon can make its checks to know that your consumables are not gonna last for long and it will simply avoid until they expires.
Dust of sneezing and chocking is... bah, be ashamed of yourself for thinking about it.

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