Sohei 1 / Weapon master 3


Rules Questions

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Silver Crusade

Good luck with the psychotic butcher dentist. : )

This is an important point of difference. You think that 'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training' is part of the Sohei Weapon Training. I think that Weapon Training is what it is regardless of class, and the quoted clause is not part of the Weapon Training class feature, but how a Sohei can use their (unmodified) Weapon Training with their (unmodified) flurry of blows. The analogy being that the fact that a Sohei can have both apple pie and ice cream on the same plate doesn't change what either the apple pie or the ice cream actually are.

Yes, this line is located in the entry for Weapon Training, but it can't be anywhere else. Classes are written as if they are single-class, and even though all that is required is that the Sohei has some flavour of Weapon Training, the first time a single class Sohei has both Weapon Training and Flurry to use together is when he gains Weapon Training at Sohei 6.

But a multi-class Sohei 1/Weaponmaster 3 gets both at 4th. The clause only requires Weapon Training, not 'Sohei Weapon Training', nor any number of Sohei levels.

As for the ice cream analogy, each class gives it's own flavour of ice cream, and when a class gives you another scoop then you are given a scoop of that classes flavour, but at any time a multi-class character may have a dish with scoops of different flavours. But they are all ice cream, and the clause just requires ice cream, not ice cream of any particular flavour.

And the author had so many ways of wording it so that this clause was part of what Sohei get at 6th level, and so many ways of separating 'Sohei Weapon Training' from other types, that his decision not to do so indicates that he meant the opposite.

Silver Crusade

Can a 1st level Ranger with 10 DEX take the Two Weapon Fighting feat at 1st level?

Can a 2nd level Ranger with 10 DEX, choosing two weapon combat style, take the Two Weapon Fighting feat at 2nd level or beyond?


Ok, let me break it down completely here for the sake of Malachi.

First, the Equivalent Class Ability FAQ:

FAQ wrote:

Archetype: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability?

It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability. (It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.)

Example: The dragoon (fighter) archetype (Ultimate Combat) has an ability called "spear training," which requires the dragoon to select "spears" as his weapon training group, and refers to his weapon training bonus (even though this bonus follows a slightly different progression than standard weapon training). Therefore, this ability counts as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training, such as gloves of dueling (Advanced Player's Guide), which increase the wearer's weapon training bonus.

Example: The archer (fighter) archetype gets several abilities (such as "expert archer") which replace weapon training and do not otherwise refer to the weapon training ability. Therefore, this ability does not count as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training (such as gloves of dueling). This is the case even for the "expert archer," ability which has a bonus that improves every 4 fighter levels, exactly like weapon training.

The FAQ here is talking about rules elements that would improve a class ability. Not rules elements that depend upon the class ability for improvement. Sohei's Weapon Training class feature improves Flurry. Weapon Training isn't improved by Flurry. If the clause were in Flurry of Blows, then you'd have a nearly valid point. It isn't, though. Furthermore...

FAQ wrote:

Fighter: What feats can I retrain at level 4, 8, and so on?

Class entries in the Core Rulebook are written assuming that your character is single-classed (not multiclassed). The fighter's ability to retrain feats allows you to retrain one of your fighter bonus feats (gained at 1st level, 2nd level, 4th level, and so on). You can't use it to retrain feats (combat feats or otherwise) from any other source, such as your feats at level 1, 3, etc., your 1st-level human bonus feat, or bonus feats from other classes.

You may want to asterisk your fighter bonus feats on your character sheet so you can easily determine which you can retrain later.

So, your assertion that the clause in Sohei's Weapon Training doesn't specify you need Sohei Weapon Training is inconsequential because it doesn't need to; the default position is that it only applies to the class's own abilities and allowance to use versions of that ability from another class is what needs to be explicit. So it does say that you need Sohei's specific Weapon Training class ability by virtue of not explicitly stating that it works on Weapon Training features from other classes. A Cleric's, Paladin's, Oracles, and Necromancer's Channel Energy may all count for things such as the Extra Channel or Elemental Channel feats, but if a class ability for the Paladin gives extra effect to Channel Energy, unless it specifies "from other classes as well", that class bonus only applies to Channel Energy used from the Paladin class's pool of Channel Energy uses. So, just as a multi-classed Monk/Fighter can't retrain Monk bonus feats using the Fighter's Bonus Feats class ability, a multi-classed Paladin/Cleric can't use a Paladin class ability to alter his Cleric's Channel Energy class ability and a Sohei/Weapon Master can't use his Weapon Master's Weapon Training ability to benefit from his Sohei's Weapon Training ability. However, both Weapon Training's will benefit equally from Gloves of the Duelist because it isn't a class ability. The Paladin/Cleric could apply Extra Channel to either his Paladin channel or his Cleric channel at his discretion. So even if you had a nearly valid point regarding benefits to same-function class abilities (which you don't), you would then run into the second wall that even if the Sohei's "can use Flurry with any Weapon Training weapon" clause were moved to Flurry of Blows, it still is subject to the "single-class assumption" so it would still require an additional clause stating, "including Weapon Training gained from another class". So advancing Sohei's Weapon Training does not advance Weapon Training gained from any other class (nor vice versa) and Weapon Training from any other class cannot be used with the Sohei's class ability that allows them to Flurry with any weapon for which they have Weapon Training because it does not explicitly say that it does.

Disagree with the principal behind the FAQ all you want, Malachi, but don't go spewing this idea that the FAQ should just be disregarded because you don't agree with it. It doesn't create a rules paradox like what we had with the Racial Heritage/Halfbreeds FAQ issue so it should be presumed to be valid until such a time that further clarification is made available. Simple logic.

Webstore Gninja Minion

Removed a post. Please be civil to each other, thanks!

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
The clause only requires Weapon Training, not 'Sohei Weapon Training', nor any number of Sohei levels

But you only get the clause at 6th level which you refuse to understand.

Silver Crusade

@Kazaan: if your assumption was correct then even a Sohei 6/fighter 5, with one group from each list, could only flurry with the one group he gained from Sohei 6 but not the group he gained from fighter 5. This is not the case; the author wants the Sohei to be able to flurry with any weapon in which he has Weapon Training, and even those who don't think that a Sohei can do this until he has 6 Sohei levels must surely realise that he can do it when he does have 6 Sohei levels!

Also, you say that it doesn't modify Weapon Training (true) but that it does modify flurry of blows (false). Flurry is not altered; it works just the same as before, but applies to a larger group of weapons. As the FAQ you helpfully quoted elaborates, the number/type of weapon it covers doesn't make it a different ability.

Applying the rules to one side and not the other is poor form. Saying that Weapon Training counts as Weapon Training(!) for one side of the debate but not the other has zero credibility. Pointing to the FAQ which says is does count doesn't translate into it not counting for the things you don't want. Everything about that FAQ points to it counting, and when it goes into detail about how that affects how the bonuses stack does not translate into it not counting for everything else.


What the author wants is inconsequential compared to how the rules read. If he wanted it to work that way, he could have easily included the clause, "A Sohei can use Flurry of Blows with any weapon category that he has chosen for Weapon Training including those from other classes." That's not what he wrote so that's not how it works. It works based on the default assumptions of the Pathfinder system; that characters are single-classed and a class ability, by default, means "this class/archetype's version of the ability" and any exceptions to the default must be stated explicitly.

It does, indeed, alter how Flurry functions because it adds additional types of weapons with which the Sohei can Flurry; that's what the word 'alter' means. It's not an "archetype" alteration in the sense that you can still mesh Sohei with an archetype that changes Flurry, but that doesn't make it any less a bonus to how Flurry functions. The Weapon Training class feature provided by the Sohei archetype improves how Flurry of Blows functions, not the other way around. So you must still absolutely have 6 levels of Sohei Monk before gaining the benefit of Flurrying with any weapon for which you have Weapon Training (Weapon Training gained through the Sohei archetype only goes without saying). Gloves of Dueling will grant their bonus equally to Sohei's Weapon Training or Fighter's Weapon Training, but Sohei's Weapon Training only grants Flurry allowance for Weapon Training earned through the Sohei Monk class. There is nothing incredible about a rule that works one way in one instance but a different way in a similar but ultimately separate instance. Class abilities presume single-classed; feats, items, and non-class abilities do not. That's how the game works. Deal with it.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
the author wants the Sohei to be able to flurry with any weapon in which he has Weapon Training, and even those who don't think that a Sohei can do this until he has 6 Sohei levels must surely realise that he can do it when he does have 6 Sohei levels!

He can't do it until 6th level Sohei and at 6th he can only do it with weapons he has Sohei Weapon Training.

Silver Crusade

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James Risner wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
the author wants the Sohei to be able to flurry with any weapon in which he has Weapon Training, and even those who don't think that a Sohei can do this until he has 6 Sohei levels must surely realise that he can do it when he does have 6 Sohei levels!

He can't do it until 6th level Sohei and at 6th he can only do it with weapons he has Sohei Weapon Training.

There is no such think as Sohei Weapon Training, only Weapon Training.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
There is no such think as Sohei Weapon Training, only Weapon Training.

Sohei Weapon Training has Sohei restrictions.

So you couldn't be more wrong wrong wrong.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
James Risner wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
the author wants the Sohei to be able to flurry with any weapon in which he has Weapon Training, and even those who don't think that a Sohei can do this until he has 6 Sohei levels must surely realise that he can do it when he does have 6 Sohei levels!

He can't do it until 6th level Sohei and at 6th he can only do it with weapons he has Sohei Weapon Training.

There is no such think as Sohei Weapon Training, only Weapon Training.

The developers of the game disagree with you. The Weapon Training granted by the Sohei Monk archetype is Sohei Weapon Training. It doesn't need to explicitly put "Sohei" in front of it because that's the default presumption of the system to cut down on word usage. Unless it explicitly states it works with another class/archetype's version of the skill, it does not. Period. End of story. That's all she wrote. So can someone lock this thread and kick Malachi's soapbox out from under him so he doesn't ruin the credibility of the community anymore?


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I generally don't comment on one side or the other of controversial debates, but I can see where Malachi is coming from on this. I would allow his interpretation in one of my games without question.

The actual rules arguments have been stated, and now people are just talking past each other. So, I don't really have anything to add except to throw my hat in to say that it isn't as one-sided as some of you seem to think.

I may not be as eloquent, or as experienced with arguing as some of the more frequent posters, but I don't appreciate it when someone is using perfectly reasonable logic and then called names for it. It has no place here.

I do appreciate the attempts of the Paizo folks like Liz that remove those posts. I just wish it weren't necessary.


Can we just stop this madness? It's obvious neither side is willing to compromise at this point. Shots have been fired, and ever since it's been an eye for eye, and everyone's gone blind.

It's pointless now. The war's over. Go home to your families, hug your children, kiss your wife, ignore the half-orc child that will appear in six months. The war is at an end, and the veterans no longer have to squabble. Just... Just stop the madness...

We don't need another thread going on and on because we are all, me included, too pig-headed to want to view the others view as being right. Both sides have presented evidence, and both sides have nay-sayed and called 'Fool!' at the other. There will never be an end, unless we lay down our weapons, spellbooks and divine objects and agree to disagree, to think'I'm right, but I won't fight any longer.'

There are other battlefields to conquer, and who knows? Perhaps those that you currently see as an enemy will be an ally. Do not wound and scar each other so. Do not cry 'He's wrong!' Over and over at the top of your voice till you're hoarse with rage. Agree to let sleeping greater barghests lie, and be free of your anger and arrogance!

The war is over. The time to fight, at least here, is at an end. Go on , wayward warriors, and seek glory elsewhere. Prove truth in other threads, but cease trying to spread it here, for both lights shine bright, too bright to let us see each other's view.


Kazaan wrote:


So, your assertion that the clause in Sohei's Weapon Training doesn't specify you need Sohei Weapon Training is inconsequential because it doesn't need to; the default position is that it only applies to the class's own abilities and allowance to use versions of that ability from another class is what needs to be explicit. So it does say that you need Sohei's specific Weapon Training class ability by virtue of not explicitly stating that it works on Weapon Training features from other classes. A Cleric's, Paladin's, Oracles, and Necromancer's Channel Energy may all count for things such as the Extra Channel or Elemental Channel feats, but if a class ability for the Paladin gives extra effect to Channel Energy, unless it specifies "from other classes as well", that class bonus only applies to Channel Energy used from the Paladin class's pool of Channel Energy uses. So, just as a multi-classed Monk/Fighter can't retrain Monk bonus feats using the Fighter's Bonus Feats class ability, a multi-classed Paladin/Cleric can't use a Paladin class ability to alter his Cleric's Channel Energy class ability and a Sohei/Weapon Master can't use his Weapon Master's Weapon Training ability to benefit from his Sohei's Weapon Training ability. However, both Weapon Training's will benefit equally from Gloves of the Duelist because it isn't a class ability. The Paladin/Cleric could apply Extra Channel to either his Paladin channel or his Cleric channel at his discretion. So even if you had a nearly valid point regarding benefits to same-function class abilities (which you don't), you would then run into the second wall that even if the Sohei's "can use Flurry with any Weapon Training weapon" clause were moved to Flurry of Blows, it still is subject to the "single-class assumption" so it would still require an additional clause stating, "including Weapon Training gained from another class". So advancing Sohei's Weapon Training does not advance Weapon Training gained from any other class (nor vice versa) and Weapon Training from any other class cannot be used with the Sohei's class ability that allows them to Flurry with any weapon for which they have Weapon Training because it does not explicitly say that it does.

Disagree with the principal behind the FAQ all you want, Malachi, but don't go spewing this idea that the FAQ should just be disregarded because you don't agree with it. It doesn't create a rules paradox like what we had with the Racial Heritage/Halfbreeds FAQ issue so it should be presumed to be valid until such a time that further clarification is made available. Simple logic.

Ignoring all the gaining abilities before you have them nonsense, Sohei weapon training absolutely stacks with base Fighter weapon training, per the Myrmidarch FAQ I posted earlier. The Myrmidarch and Sohei abilities even use the same base phrasing: gain Weapon Training as the fighter class feature. So a Sohei 6/Fighter 5 will have +2 Training in one group, +1 Training in another group (1 of these two groups must be a sohei group depending on which of sohei 6, fighter 5 was reached first) and can flurry with both groups. The exact interaction only becomes unclear when you multiple archetype modified weapon trainings that are mutually exclusive.


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Calth wrote:

Ignoring all the gaining abilities before you have them nonsense, Sohei weapon training absolutely stacks with base Fighter weapon training, per the Myrmidarch FAQ I posted earlier. The Myrmidarch and Sohei abilities even use the same base phrasing: gain Weapon Training as the fighter class feature. So a Sohei 6/Fighter 5 will have +2 Training in one group, +1 Training in another group (1 of these two groups must be a sohei group depending on which of sohei 6, fighter 5 was reached first) and can flurry with both groups. The exact interaction only becomes unclear when you multiple archetype modified weapon trainings that are mutually exclusive.

I was going to make a similar argument, and I do think the intent of Sohei class feature is to stack with any other Weapon Training, but Myrmidarch contains the following, which Sohei lacks. They are using it to make a counter-argument.

Weapon Training (Ex) wrote:

At 6th level, a myrmidarch gains weapon training, as the fighter ability, adding an additional weapon group every six levels after 6th (to a maximum of three groups at 18th level) and increasing the bonus on attack and damage rolls for weapon groups already chosen by +1.

This ability replaces the magus arcana normally gained at 6th, 12th, and 18th levels.

Personally, I find the highlighted portion to be a reminder, rather than the enabling factor that separates the 2 abilities.

Also, I think the author of Sohei would have said soemthing similar to 'A Sohei may use FoB/Ki Strike with any weapon from these groups in which he also has WT' if he wanted to limit it... because it's so much easier to expressly limit the ability than to assume people will understand that it is.
Further, I expect that Sohei WT stacks just fine in PFS. (Although there may be just enough wiggle for them to enforce variation at their tables.)

The examples are few, but we have sufficient places where classes (although perhaps more often archetypes) reference another; the best of which may be the Oracle's Curse, since it's "levels or HD other than Oracle".
Channel is bad comparison because it's power relies on class levels(vs number of acquisitions), and very few classes allow their levels to stack for the purposes of Channel.
So, yes, WT depends on class levels, but indirectly. In theory, you could write a feature along the lines of "these levels stack w/ fighter levels to determine WT", but I don't know of one; and the WT FAQ makes it abundantly clear that any class feature which scales with 'how many times you have it' stacks with itself, no matter the source. It is not limited only to the Mydmirarch.

Paizo Glitterati Robot

Removed a few more posts and locking. I think we're done here.

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