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It is an intrinsic part of the ability in the sense that the ability to combine weapon training with flurry requires you to have weapon training. The ability gained at level 6 sohei is also gained at level 3 weaponmaster.
Is that seriously your claim? If so can you cite where it says that a Weapon Master can make a flurry of blows with a weapon they have Weapon Training in?
The Sohei only gains the ability to Flurry with weapons he has Weapon Training in when he has 6 levels of Sohei under his belt. That's RAW & RAI
I'd even go so far as to say that it's even more restrictive than that - if you used an example of a Sohei 6/Weapon Master 3, the Sohei could only FoB with the weapon groups that appear on the Sohei list and not any other group they may have gained from their Fighter class levels.
But I concede that this restriction is more RAI than RAW.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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So, a bit of a question:Can a Sohei1/Rogue 2 with the Weapon Training talent flurry with whatever weapon she chose weapon training with? After all, it is a weapon she has weapon training in.
I'm assuming this is a joke question used to demonstrate the answer is no.
But if it is a serious question, then the answer is no.
Hey, I already made that joke!
:P
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It is very human to treat convention and tradition as if they are rules. The convention for the way classes are written is that you can't look ahead to see what abilities you have. It is close enough to the actual rule that people conflate this with the actual rule, and when a class is written otherwise, assume that there is something wrong or mentally 'correct' the wording to match their preconception.
The actual rule here, supported by the FAQ, is that, 'you don't have an ability until you have it'. The rule is not, 'you don't have an ability until you gain it from a particular class'.
The ability in question is 'Weapon Training'. The kind of Weapon Training gained (usually, but not always)) from the fighter class (not the identically named rogue talent). If you have that fighter weapon training from either fighter levels, Sohei levels, or any other class that gives Weapon Training 'as the fighter class feature', then you have it. Therefore, the (true, but misplaced) statement that 'you don't have an ability until you have it' simply does not apply here, because the Sohei 1/Weaponmaster 3 definately has that ability.
As non-traditional as it may be, the actual text of the class trumps any mis-understood rule or mere convention or tradition. Like it or not, unusual or not, not only does the Sohei 1/Weaponmaster 3 have Weapon Trainng (as the fighter special ability), but he also has Flurry of Blows. Therefore, the text that reads, 'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training' applies.
Tradition does not trump text, and misunderstood or misapplied rules fall away in the face of actual rules and actual text.
That line modifies weapon training (surely even you admit a non-Sohei cannot flurry with weapon training). You do not gain that modification until you reach 6th level.
One more attempt then I give up!...
and misunderstood or misapplied rules fall away in the face of actual rules and actual text.
hehehehehe oh! the irony
The actual rule here, supported by the FAQ, is that, 'you don't have an ability until you have it'. The rule is not, 'you don't have an ability until you gain it from a particular class'..
agreed!
The ability in question is 'Weapon Training'. The kind of Weapon Training gained (usually, but not always)) from the fighter class (not the identically named rogue talent). If you have that fighter weapon training from either fighter levels, Sohei levels, or any other class that gives Weapon Training 'as the fighter class feature', then you have it.
agreed!
As non-traditional as it may be, the actual text of the class trumps any mis-understood rule or mere convention or tradition. Like it or not, unusual or not, not only does the Sohei 1/Weaponmaster 3 have Weapon Trainng (as the fighter special ability), but he also has Flurry of Blows. Therefore, the text that reads, 'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training' applies.
And this is where it all falls down. I just can't grasp what convoluted thought process you keep running through here.
How you feel it is appropriate to jump ahead to read an ability you don't have yet baffles me. When our WM3/S1 uses weapon training he refers to the WM version. That is the version he has with all the variations and modifcations (if any) that it has. That doesn't say he can flurry or ki strike so he doesn't. Why would he look at the S6 ability when he doesn't have it yet.
It really is like a simplified computer programme (like the ones i grew up with :)) if there isn't a line telling it to Goto50, 50 doesn't run...
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That line modifies weapon training (surely even you admit a non-Sohei cannot flurry with weapon training). You do not gain that modification until you reach 6th level.
I'm not aware of other creatures with both flurry and Weapon Training being able to combine them, but it would have to have both abilities before it could even qualify to combine them.
In truth, the Weapon Training gained as a sixth level Sohei is identical to that gained as a fifth level fighter or third level Weaponmaster. Each one applies to a limited sub-set of weapons, just like, say, Weapon Focus only applies to one kind of weapon; there aren't a hundred different feats (one for each weapon), there is one fear for which you must choose to which weapon it applies. It's the same for Wrapon Training; it's a single ability, and you must define a sub-set of weapons to which it applies.
So Weapon Training is not modified for a Sohei. It applies to a sub-set of weapons, and adds +1 to attack and damage (which gets bigger each time you get another sub-set of weapons). The line that let's the Sohei flurry with those weapons doesn't change Weapon Training, or the benefits given by that ability, in any way at all.
You might say that it modifies flurry, in that flurry now applies to a subset of weapons that it didn't apply to before, but the reality is that flurry itself always only applied to a subset of weapons.
No, neither ability is modified. What's different is the Sohei; he can combine those abilities, but the abities themselves are unchanged.
And when is the Sohei able to do this? According to the actual rules, not incorrect assumptions?
'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training'.
'A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training'.
A Sohei gains this at level 6. It's clearly written in the rules. A level 1 Sohei has a regular monks flurry of blows and at level 6 this ability is modified to allow the use of any weapon they have weapon training in. A level 1 Sohei multi classed with a level 3 weapon master has flurry of blows as a level 1 Sohei and the weapon training of a level 3 weapon master. That is all. Not the flurry of blows as a level 6 Sohei.
Using your logic a wizard 1 / sorcerer 4 can cast up to level 2 spells as a wizard and a sorcerer. This is not how it works and you only gain the abilities through leveling the class. This example would have the spell casting function of a 1st level wizard and a 4th level sorcerer not the ability to cast 2nd level spells of both classes.
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In truth, the Weapon Training gained as a sixth level Sohei is identical to that gained as a fifth level fighter or third level Weaponmaster.
Except that it isn't, because the Fighter gets it at 5th level and every 4 levels afterwards, and with any weapon group, the Weapon Master gets it at 3rd level and every 4 levels afterwards, and only with one weapon, and the Sohei gets it at 6th level and every 6 levels afterwards, and only with the Monk, Thrown, Bows, Crossbows, Spears, and Polearms Weapon Groups, and can flurry with any weapons he has weapon training in. That proves that this statement is false.
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I am sorry but It doesn't work. Evidence and FAQ have been provided and the simple fact is that you don't go looking 6 levels later for abilities you get you at level one abilities at level 1 and level 6 abilities at level 6. You can house rule it to your heart's content but both RAW and RAI are against this working.
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so a lvl 16 character with 10 levels in Fighter and 6 levels in Sohei should read their Monk abilities as if they were a lvl 6 character with 6 levels in Sohei and their Fighter abilities as if they were a lvl 10 character with 10 levels in Fighter, notwithstanding the things that explicitly stack like HD, BAB, Saves, etc.
Agreed. But some things are not class specific even if granted by a class, and other class features are possessed by more than one class.
For example, you could get the Dodge feat as a bonus fighter feat, a bonus monk feat, the bonus feat that humans get at 1st level, or as one of your 'normal' feats. But once you have the Dodge feat, it doesn't matter where you got it in terms of how it functions. If you get Dodge as a bones monk feat, and want Mobility (which has Dodge as a prerequisite), you can get Mobility through a bonus fighter feat, no problem. What you're trying to say is that you must separate the source of that feat so different sources cannot interact, meaning that because you didn't get Dodge from fighter levels that it cannot be used as a prerequisite for Mobility if you get Mobility from fighter levels. We know that the rules don't work that way; once you have Dodge you have it, and the source of that feat is not relevant.
If you have an archetype which says, 'a character of this archetype gets +2 to AC instead of +1 from the Dodge feat', then it doesn't matter which class (if any) provided that feat, if you have it and that archetype then you get +2 from Dodge.
It's the same with, say, Evasion or Uncanny Dodge. It doesn't matter which class gives it, it works the same and stacks normally, no matter the source.
Weapon Training is the same. If you start with six levels of Sohei and then get five levels of fighter, then you can flurry with both sets of weapons. This is intentional. This is why it is worded as it is, 'as the fighter class ability', so that they stack, and so that a Sohei can flurry with them all. It would've been simplicity itself to make them not stack, but it is worded to make them stack, make them the same ability. Therefore, if a character has Weapon Training 'as the fighter class feature', then it's not relevant which class gave that ability, and Sohei can flurry with those weapons because it's worded so they can.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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1) What you're trying to say is that you must separate the source of that feat so different sources cannot interact
2) Weapon Training is the same. If you start with six levels of Sohei and then get five levels of fighter, then you can flurry with both sets of weapons.
1) No that is not what they are saying.
2) No that is not what will happen. They can't flurry with both because the Sohei doesn't give the right to flurry with non-Sohei Weapon Training weapons.
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For example, you could get the Dodge feat as a bonus fighter feat, a bonus monk feat, the bonus feat that humans get at 1st level, or as one of your 'normal' feats. But once you have the Dodge feat, it doesn't matter where you got it in terms of how it functions. If you get Dodge as a bones monk feat, and want Mobility (which has Dodge as a prerequisite), you can get Mobility through a bonus fighter feat, no problem. What you're trying to say is that you must separate the source of that feat so different sources cannot interact, meaning that because you didn't get Dodge from fighter levels that it cannot be used as a prerequisite for Mobility if you get Mobility from fighter levels. We know that the rules don't work that way; once you have Dodge you have it, and the source of that feat is not relevant.If you have an archetype which says, 'a character of this archetype gets +2 to AC instead of +1 from the Dodge feat', then it doesn't matter which class (if any) provided that feat, if you have it and that archetype then you get +2 from Dodge.
It's the same with, say, Evasion or Uncanny Dodge. It doesn't matter which class gives it, it works the same and stacks normally, no matter the source.
Nope. Evasion and uncanny dodge say they stack, so they do. If you had an archetype ability that you got at 6th level and said (as you wrote above) 'a character of this archetype gets +2 to AC instead of +1 from the Dodge feat' then it does matter if you take dodge when you're first level and add in a +2 bonus. This is commonly known as cheating.
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And what you are saying is if at 6th level a class gave you the Dodge feat and said, and said the Dodge feat gives you a +2 dodge bonus to AC by your logic you could take 1 level in the class and the Dodge feat from another source and get +2 to AC from Dodge. This is not the case.
The simple fact is abilities are gained at specific levels and while certain abilities stack many don't. For example you could gain 2 levels of Monk and gain evasion and then gain 2 levels of rogue and say I get improved evasion since i have evasion twice, but this is not the case. Nor do those levels stack to see if you get improved evasion, such as the case of Rogue 7, Monk 2.
Abilities give you what they say when they say it. You do not look all down a class's ability list to see when and if they get abilities, you only look at the level you are at. Its simple, RAW and RAI.
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Weapon Training is the same. If you start with six levels of Sohei and then get five levels of fighter, then you can flurry with both sets of weapons. This is intentional. This is why it is worded as it is, 'as the fighter class ability', so that they stack, and so that a Sohei can flurry with them all. It would've been simplicity itself to make them not stack, but it is worded to make them stack, make them the same ability. Therefore, if a character has Weapon Training 'as the fighter class feature', then it's not relevant which class gave that ability, and Sohei can flurry with those weapons because it's worded so they can.Actually, I believe it is worded as it is because it is simpler to say as the fighter class feature. The rules are written assuming a single-classed character [it literally says this in an FAQ], so I am pretty sure that they didn't write the rules for this archetype intending for people to multiclass. The archetype isn't exactly a well-written archetype, as there was already an FAQ on flurrying in armor[before it was highly debatable], and nobody is certain [or perhaps everyone is certain in a different way] about how the bonus feats work. I think this is another example of poor writing.
In truth, the Weapon Training gained as a sixth level Sohei is identical to that gained as a fifth level fighter or third level Weaponmaster.Except that it isn't, because the Fighter gets it at 5th level and every 4 levels afterwards, and with any weapon group, the Weapon Master gets it at 3rd level and every 4 levels afterwards, and only with one weapon, and the Sohei gets it at 6th level and every 6 levels afterwards, and only with the Monk, Thrown, Bows, Crossbows, Spears, and Polearms Weapon Groups, and can flurry with any weapons he has weapon training in. That proves that this statement is false.
Going to restate this, because it seems to be the basis of your argument that the class features are identical. And they, specifically, aren't.
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I see this as an issue that you achieve an ability at a specific level in a class and in a second class and at that point those abilities stack.
In this case your reach the level to gain the ability in 2 classes and how this ability interacts was described in the FAQ.
What is being described however is like saying if i take 2 levels of Fighter and 1 level of Myrmidarch and since the FAQ says they stack I gain armor training 1.
Note also that not all abilities have this distinction, Evasion and Improved being one example.
And the key here is that you only get flurry with weapons you have weapon training in at sohei 6 because that is when it says you gain that ability.
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And the key here is that you only get flurry with weapons you have weapon training in at sohei 6 because that is when it says you gain that ability.
No matter how many times this error is repeated, it is still an error.
What Sohei gain at sixth level is 'Weapon Training, as the fighter class ability'. They get the fighter's ability. Fighters also get that ability (at fifth) and Weaponmasters also get it (at third).
So, a single-classed Sohei 6 has Weapon Training 'as the fighter class feature', and a Sohei 1/Weaponmaster 3 has Weapon Training 'as the fighter class feature'.
It is also noted that any Sohei who has Weapon Training 'as the fighter class feature' is able to use Flurry of Blows and Ki Strike with any weapon in which he has Weapon Training 'as the fighter class feature'. This is not part of the Weapon Training feature, it is part of the Sohei class. Since classes are written from the perspective of a single-class character, and since the ability to combine these features only comes into play when you have all of the features you intend to combine, then this information only becomes relevant to the single-classed Sohei at sixth level and that is where the information is located.
Although classes are written from the point of view of a single-class character, this in no way denies multi-class characters from benefitting from a combination of features that they actually have. The Sohei 1/Weaponmaster 3 actually has both Flurry of Blows AND Weapon Training 'as the fighter class feature', and therefore he may combine the two features as written.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Although classes are written from the point of view of a single-class character, this in no way denies multi-class characters from benefitting from a combination of features that they actually have. The Sohei 1/Weaponmaster 3 actually has both Flurry of Blows AND Weapon Training 'as the fighter class feature', and therefore he may combine the two features as written.
No he may not because he doesn't have the ability to flurry with weapon training weapons because he isn't 6th level of Sohei yet.
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So it seems you are dead set on being flat undeniably wrong. No amount of logic, rules, precedence, or anything else will dissuade you.
Logic can persuade me, but all that has been presented to refute my evidence is an astonishing series of fallacies.
Rules can persuade me (they are the authority in this), but the actual written rules support the conclusion that a Sohei can Flurry with any weapon in which he has Weapon Training 'as the fighter class feature'.
Precedent is not binding in Pathfinder; this is not a rule. This is the fallacy of Appeal To Tradition, a conclusion supported solely because it has long held to be true. Just because (it is asserted) that it has always been this way so far, this does not lead to the conclusion that it will always be this way in the future. There is no rule preventing the author of an archetype from including information in the text of a special ability, where that information regards combining the ability just gained with other abilities already possessed. In the circumstance, if the author wanted any Sohei to be able to combine flurry and Weapon Training, then the best way to word it is the way it is actually worded, bearing in mind word count and the expectation to write from the perspective of a single-classed character.
Other fallacies used to argue against this include (but are not limited to):-
* Argument from personal incredulity - I cannot believe that this is the case, therefore it must be false
* Argument from repetition - the idea that this has been discussed so many times before that nobody cares to discuss it anymore, therefore anyone still discussing it must be wrong
* Argument from silence - the idea that because there is no general written rule allowing this, then any specific wording that says it is allowed must be wrong
* Ad hominem (playing the man) - 'Malachi is at it again (we all know what he's like!), therefore he must be wrong'
* Furtive fallacy - believing that if the author truly intended this, then the author had bad intentions
* Irrelevant Conclusion - when anyone says 'you don't have an ability before you have it!'; true, but irrelevant since the Sohei 1/Weaponmaster 3 'has it': Weapon Training
* Mind projection fallacy - when one considers the way one sees the world as the way the world really is. In this case, the way one sees the game rules is really what the rules actually are, and ignore evidence to the contrary
* Moralistic fallacy - inferring is from ought, inferring that because the rules ought to be a certain way, then they are a certain way
* Argumentum ad populum (appeal to the majority) - everyone apart from Malachi thinks it's wrong, so it must be wrong (BTW, I'm really not the only one)
* Appeal to motive - where a premise is dismissed by calling into question the motives of the proposer. It's been suggested that my motives are to get a powerful character. Despite the fact that I can get two attacks at level one by either flurry or TWF, and despite the fact that I can get Weapon Training at third level, and despite the fact that I can most certainly make a more powerful character in other ways, none of this actually addresses the proposition itself, which stands or falls on its own merit
* Straw man - 'I bet Malachi thinks that the rogue talent called Weapon Training also counts! Ha, ha, isn't Malachi stupid?' No-one thinks that the rogue talent counts as Weapon Training 'as the fighter class ability'
* Slippery slope - 'if you believe that, then you'll believe that first level alchemists can do what 18th level alchemists can do!'
TL;DR: sound logic has weight, but fallacies have little or no weight. I maintain my position because the evidence leads to that position, and the mere profusion of fallacies in no way shifts that conclusion.
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The problem is you are assuming you gain the flurry ability because you gain weapon training regardless of the source, this is not true.
Flurry with weapon training is an ability listed under Sohei at level 6, not at level 1.
For what you want to be true the Sohei would have had to have Flurry at level 1 include the clause, you can also flurry with weapons you have weapon training. This is not the case.
Instead at 6th level you gain Weapon Training, under that specific ability, which acts as weapon training of fighter, you also gain the ability to flurry with weapons in which you have weapon training.
Now I would agree that if you are a Sohei 6, Weapon Master 3 you can flurry with your weapon master weapon because the clause does not limit you to the weapons that Sohei weapon training does.
The problem is your are looking at a higher level ability and assuming you get that ability even though its not listed at the level you have obtained.
Sohei do not get an ability at 1st level that lets them flurry with weapons in which they have weapon training. They gain that ability at level 6. As the archetype shows.
The paragraph starts, "At 6th level..."
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For what you want to be true the Sohei would have had to have Flurry at level 1 include the clause, you can also flurry with weapons you have weapon training. This is not the case.
As mentioned in several attempts to counter, classes are written as if the character is single-classed. Being able to combine two special abilities is only relevant when you have both abilities, and a single-class Sohei first has both at sixth level.
It would simply make no sense to include information at 1st when it is unusable until 6th (as a single-class Sohei). Flurry of Blows isn't altered at all. Neither is Weapon Training. What Sohei can do is combine these abilities (if they have them).
Sohei do not get an ability at 1st level that lets them flurry with weapons in which they have weapon training. They gain that ability at level 6. As the archetype shows.
What the archetype shows is that they can combine flurry with Weapon Training as soon as they have both Flurry and Weapon Training.
The paragraph starts, "At 6th level..."
...and continues, "...they get Weapon Training as the fighter special ability". It then goes on to say that, "A Sohei may use flurry of blows and Ki Strike with any weapon in which he has Weapon Training". This statement is true whenever a Sohei has Weapon Training to combine with one or both of the other abilities. There is no language which restricts this ability as if the Weapon Training gained by Sohei at 6th level were somehow a different thing than the Weapon Training gained by fighters, even though the author is deliberately making them the same.
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Question for you Malachi:
Would you say that a Two-Handed Fighter 1/Sohei 6 only gets their Sohei weapon training bonus when using a two-handed weapon? Are they also limited to only use a two-handed weapon for Flurry via this ability?Two-handed Fighter (archtype)
Weapon Training (Ex): As the fighter class feature, but the bonuses only apply when wielding two-handed melee weapons.
I've never put my mind to this, but I'll give it a go now.
Weapon Training, just like Flurry of Blows or Weapon Focus or Exotic Weapon Proficiency, has the limit of only being usable with a specific weapon or group of weapons. This doesn't make each one a different ability each time you choose a weapon or weapons; this is how it works in the first place.
So having Weapon Training(monk weapons), Weapon Training(falchion), or Weapon Training(only when wielding two-handed melee weapons) is the same ability applying to different weapons, as designed.
The (monk weapons) group, the (specifically falchion) 'group', and the (only when wielding two-handed melee weapons) 'group' are what they are, none restricting the use of the others.
If you use a weapon that is in more than one group (for example, using a falchion for a character who has all three of the groups above), then you use the higher of the bonuses.
The Sohei may flurry with any weapon in which they have Weapon Training. For the above examples, this means they can flurry with monk weapons, flurry with falchions, and flurry when using two-handed melee weapons.
So, to answer your questions:-
Q: Would you say that a Two-Handed fighter 1/Sohei 6 only gets their Sohei Weapon Training bonus when using a two-handed weapon?
A: The bonus from Weapon Training of any (Weapon Training 'as the fighter class ability') type is a bonus to attack and damage. This bonus starts at +1 when you first get any of these Weapon Training abilities, and increases by +1 for every already possessed weapon group each time you gain another. When using a weapon in which you have Weapon Training, you get the designated bonus, or the higher bonus if the weapon applies to more than one of the Weapon Taining groups you have. So your question doesn't make much sense really.
Q: Are they also limited to only use a two-handed weapon for flurry via this ability?
A: Sohei can flurry with any weapon in which they have Weapon Training. Therefore, a character with Weapon Training(when wielding two-handed melee weapons) +1 AND Weapon Training(monk weapons) +2 AND Weapon Training(falchion) +3, can flurry with any weapon that falls into any of these groups, using the appropriate bonus. There is no need for a weapon to be in ALL of these groups in order to flurry with it.
That was rather easy. : )
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How are we still discussing this? Class abilities are granted and organized in the order in which they are gained and grouped by level.
Weapon Training (Ex)
At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.
When can he do all of the above? At sixth level. You can't separate out the last sentence and pretend that it was stated along with first level abilities because you find it convenient.
Or are you saying a 1 level dip in Tetori(monk) can allow you to spend a point from your ki pool (gotten from any class) to attempt a second save?Break Free (Ex)
At 5th level, a tetori adds his monk level on combat maneuver or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple. If a tetori fails a save against an effect that causes him to become entangled, paralyzed, slowed, or staggered, he may spend 1 point from his ki pool as an immediate action to attempt a new save.
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Logic can persuade me, but all that has been presented to refute my evidence is an astonishing series of fallacies.
Rules can persuade me (they are the authority in this), but the actual written rules support the conclusion that a Sohei can Flurry with any weapon in which he has Weapon Training 'as the fighter class feature'.
Weapon Training (Ex): At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training. This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of sun and moon.
Weapon Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.
Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a fighter becomes further trained in another group of weapons. He gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when using a weapon from this group. In addition, the bonuses granted by previous weapon groups increase by +1 each. For example, when a fighter reaches 9th level, he receives a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one weapon group and a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with the weapon group selected at 5th level. Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Take the highest bonus granted for a weapon if it resides in two or more groups.
A fighter also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with weapons from this group. This bonus also applies to the fighter's Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against weapons from this group.
Since apparently the argument that Sohei's can't flurry with Weapon Training from Weapon Master before 6th sohei level is not using logic, I will show my logic.
Facts:
- Fighter Weapon Training is granted by a 5th level fighter, is available to any weapon group, and increases at 9th level, and every 4 levels afterwards.
- Sohei Weapon Training is granted at 6th level, is available only to the Bows, Crossbows, Monk Weapons, Thrown Weapons, Spears, and Polearms weapon groups, and increases at 12th level and every 6 levels afterwards. It also says it is granted "as the fighter class feature".
From these facts, I ask myself a series of questions, and answer them accordingly.
Q:Are these two abilities identical?
A:No, because the rules state they aren't. They state where these abilities are different.
Q:Is the sentence "A Sohei may flurry with any weapon he has weapon training with" part of the Sohei's Weapon Training Class Feature?
A:Yes, because the sentence is in the Weapon Training class feature granted by the Sohei class.
Q:If I have Weapon Training from the Fighter and from the Sohei, can I flurry with weapons I trained in with fighter levels?
A:Yes, because the Sohei ability functions as the fighter class feature, and thus the line modifying it would modify all weapon training.
Q:If I have Weapon Training from the Fighter class feature but not the Sohei class feature, can I flurry with weapons I have weapon training in?
A:No, because you do not have the sentence allowing you to flurry with any weapon you have weapon training in, because that is not part of the fighter class feature.
So, my conclusion is that a Sohei of 6th level can flurry with multiclassed weapon training, but not before 6th Sohei level, because part of the Sohei's class feature, which is not identical to the fighter's class feature, is the line allowing you to flurry with weapons you have weapon training in.
* Straw man - 'I bet Malachi thinks that the rogue talent called Weapon Training also counts! Ha, ha, isn't Malachi stupid?' No-one thinks that the rogue talent counts as Weapon Training 'as the fighter class ability'
I would like to apologize if my statement about the Weapon Training Rogue Talent came off as an actual argument, or an insult to you. I merely meant it as a joke to hopefully lighten the argumentative mood of this thread.
Also, if the post above seems condescending in any way [I suck at portraying the tone I intend to on these boards], I will apologize in advance, as it is only intended to be a way to format the logic I used. And I fully admit that there may be flaws in this logic that I cannot see, but I do not intend to use flawed logic.
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That is exactly what he is saying Korthis. A ninja 2/tetori 1 could spend a ki point for exactly that even though that ability isn't acquired until 5th level.
This is the issue he is failing to comprehend that if an ability is tagged in a paragraph at 6th level you don't get that ability til 6th level. Weapon training doesn't not give the ability to flurry with these weapons, it only gives you what it says it gives you. That is the essence of a permissive system.
Malachi seems to think that any place in a character's class description where it doesn't say, "at this level you can do this" means that you get that ability at first level as long as you meet the other prerequisite. This is patently false.
His argument is that those rules apply to single class characters not multiclass. There is nothing under multiclass characters that supports this argument. There is nothing under weapon training that supports this argument. There is nothing under flurry that supports this argument. The only time this applies is the 6th level ability of Sohei that only applies at that level. As it stands, this is between him and his GM. If that GM wants to allow a broken combination that is his house rule.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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The paragraph starts, "At 6th level..."...and continues, "...they get Weapon Training as the fighter special ability".
Which is completely irrelevant. Until you can show that you can split class abilities into different lines.
So your basically saying this:
Instant Alchemy (Ex): At 18th level, an alchemist can create alchemical items with almost supernatural speed. He can create any alchemical item as a full-round action if he succeeds at the Craft (alchemy) check and has the appropriate resources at hand to fund the creation. He can apply poison to a weapon as an immediate action.
So by logic, at 18th level I can full-round to make a craft check. But at 1st level I can apply poison to a weapon as an immediate action. By your logic nothing in that line is tied to the "at 18th level" qualifier.
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The paragraph starts, "At 6th level..."...and continues, "...they get Weapon Training as the fighter special ability".Which is completely irrelevant. Until you can show that you can split class abilities into different lines.
So your basically saying this:
Instant Alchemy (Ex): At 18th level, an alchemist can create alchemical items with almost supernatural speed. He can create any alchemical item as a full-round action if he succeeds at the Craft (alchemy) check and has the appropriate resources at hand to fund the creation. He can apply poison to a weapon as an immediate action.
So by logic, at 18th level I can full-round to make a craft check. But at 1st level I can apply poison to a weapon as an immediate action. By your logic nothing in that line is tied to the "at 18th level" qualifier.
Actually, it seems like a large portion of his logic comes from the line of thinking that Sohei Weapon Training and Fighter Weapon Training are abilities that function like one another, and thus if you have one you have the other. The bit there would only be his argument if another class had an Instant Alchemy class feature, and this had the line "As the [insert class here] class feature." Which means you probably won't find another example like this.
At least, that's what I think he has been meaning to say[feel free to correct me].
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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So that FAQ kind of muddled up the water on the Sohei issue.
Not at all. This is precisely identical to Instant Alchemy or any other ability with more than one line.
Weapon Training (Ex): At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature (Core Rulebook 56): bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training. This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of sun and moon.
He is choosing to ignore the fact the whole ability comes online at 6th level. Having Weapon Training (even if you got it somehow with Monk levels like a combined Archetype), he can't ignore the "At 6th level" and get to jump to the second italicized sentence.
He can't pick and choose lines he wishes out of an ability if he doesn't have the ability.
At 1st level Alchemist doesn't have He can apply poison to a weapon as an immediate action.
A 1st level Sohei doesn't have A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.
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The paragraph starts, "At 6th level..."...and continues, "...they get Weapon Training as the fighter special ability".Which is completely irrelevant. Until you can show that you can split class abilities into different lines.
So your basically saying this:
Instant Alchemy (Ex): At 18th level, an alchemist can create alchemical items with almost supernatural speed. He can create any alchemical item as a full-round action if he succeeds at the Craft (alchemy) check and has the appropriate resources at hand to fund the creation. He can apply poison to a weapon as an immediate action.
So by logic, at 18th level I can full-round to make a craft check. But at 1st level I can apply poison to a weapon as an immediate action. By your logic nothing in that line is tied to the "at 18th level" qualifier.
Actually, it seems like a large portion of his logic comes from the line of thinking that Sohei Weapon Training and Fighter Weapon Training are abilities that function like one another, and thus if you have one you have the other. The bit there would only be his argument if another class had an Instant Alchemy class feature, and this had the line "As the [insert class here] class feature." Which means you probably won't find another example like this.
At least, that's what I think he has been meaning to say[feel free to correct me].
I responded to this exact example earlier in this thread. Since I can't create a link to save my life, it said that to be a valid comparison then Instant Alchemy would have to be, say, a wizard ability gained at x level or at level 18 alchemist, then the text would have to say, "An alchemist with Instant Alchemy then you can do this cool stuff", then an alchemist can do the cool stuff wherever he got Instant Alchemy from. Since this is not the case, this example doesn't say anything about the topic of this thread since the reasons it works for the Sohei are entirely absent from Instant Alchemy.
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@EvilPaladin: I like your approach to the problem, and your honest attempt to analyse the issue.
To respond, I'll put my answers underneath yours, to facilitate comparison.
Facts:
•Fighter Weapon Training is granted by a 5th level fighter, is available to any weapon group, and increases at 9th level, and every 4 levels afterwards.
•Sohei Weapon Training is granted at 6th level, is available only to the Bows, Crossbows, Monk Weapons, Thrown Weapons, Spears, and Polearms weapon groups, and increases at 12th level and every 6 levels afterwards. It also says it is granted "as the fighter class feature".From these facts, I ask myself a series of questions, and answer them accordingly.
Q:Are these two abilities identical?
A:No, because the rules state they aren't. They state where these abilities are different.
A: As mentioned many times, it is part of the Weapon Training from its very creation that it applies to a subset of weapons, just like Weapon Focus or like Skill Focus applying to only one skill. There are not an infinite number of different feats called Weapon Focus, there is one feat which must name a weapon.
Ki Pool is another example. You can get Ki Pool from more than one source, but you don't have two Ki Pools, you have one combined pool. The Extra Ki feat is one feat, not Extra Ki(ninja), Extra Ki(monk) etc., because Extra Ki is one feat, and Ki Pool is one ability.
Weapon Training is one ability, which each time it is taken applies to a new group (usually) and increases incrementally. If they were all different abilities then they couldn't stack. Gloves of Duelling work with Weapon Training. THE Weapon Training ability.
As SKR said, if it's the same then it's the same. Every Weapon Training 'as the fighter class feature' is the same ability, and the fact that there is a different list of possible weapon groups doesn't make it a different ability once you have chosen one of those groups.
Let's take Weapon Focus again. This feat is a pre-requisite for other feats, some prestige classes, perhaps enabling the unlocking of some magic item abilities. If you take this feat as a fighter bonus feat, you can choose any weapon. If a cleric archetype says, "You gain Weapon Focus in your Deity's favoured weapon", you have a restricted list of weapons (in this case, one!). This doesn't make this Weapon Focus a different feat! It still counts as a prerequisite, still does everything any other Weapon Focus does.
If the author of Sohei wanted it to be a different thing, he could have called it something else; 'Sohei Weapon Training' would be easy. Instead, he took great pains to make it the same ability as fighter Weapon Training. It directs you to the fighter class to see what it does, it increases incrementally the same way, no matter which class gives you another Weapon Training.
So, are they identical? Wrong question. Are they the same ability? Yes, without doubt.
Q:Is the sentence "A Sohei may flurry with any weapon he has weapon training with" part of the Sohei's Weapon Training Class Feature?
A:Yes, because the sentence is in the Weapon Training class feature granted by the Sohei class.
A: No. The class feature gained at Sohei 6th is 'Weapon Training, as the fighter class feature'. The sentence about Sohei being able to flurry with any weapon in which he has 'Weapon Training as the fighter class feature' is written here because classes are written from the perspective of a single class character, and the ability to combine two class features only applies when you have the two features to combine, which for a single class Sohei is 6th level.
Q:If I have Weapon Training from the Fighter and from the Sohei, can I flurry with weapons I trained in with fighter levels?
A:Yes, because the Sohei ability functions as the fighter class feature, and thus the line modifying it would modify all weapon training.
A: As you pointed out, Weapon Training from each class is the same ability, so yes. I must point out that the 'may flurry' line does not actually modify either Weapon Training, Flurry of Blows or Ki Pool in any way, it's just that a Sohei can use these class features together.
Q:If I have Weapon Training from the Fighter class feature but not the Sohei class feature, can I flurry with weapons I have weapon training in?
A:No, because you do not have the sentence allowing you to flurry with any weapon you have weapon training in, because that is not part of the fighter class feature.
Yes, because the ability to combine flurry with Weapon Training is not part of the class feature, but a note on how Sohei may use this class feature (which is 'Weapon Training, as the fighter class feature').
So, my conclusion is that a Sohei of 6th level can flurry with multiclassed weapon training, but not before 6th Sohei level, because part of the Sohei's class feature, which is not identical to the fighter's class feature, is the line allowing you to flurry with weapons you have weapon training in.
And my conclusion is that a Sohei of any level can flurry with any weapon in which he has Weapon Training (from any source), because that's what it says, there is only one ability (Weapon Training), that ability is what is gained at level six. The ability that Sohei have to combine these class features applies as soon as he has the features in question. The ability to combine these features is not a part of any of those features, but part of the Sohei.
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How about the barbarian 2/rogue 1 uncanny dodge then?
Has the exact phrasing you are asking for, so you are saying a barbarian 2 gains improved uncanny dodge once it takes a level in any class that has uncanny dodge as well?
It does what it says, which is that if you gain the Uncanny Dodge class feature from a class but you already have this class feature, then you gain the Improved version instead of the normal version.
Straw man?
What your case and mine have in common is that they get these abilities when they get them, and can't combine them before they get them! You get Uncanny Dodge at Bar2, Rog4, some others as well. As soon as you have two of them to combine, from any source, then you can.
This is exactly the same for Sohei. As soon as they have Flurry of Blows AND Weapon Training 'as the fighter class feature' from any source, they can combine them. They can't combine things they don't have, and your Bar2/Rog1 doesn't have two lots of Uncanny Dodge to combine.