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Are the PDFs I see online pirated?


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Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:

I don't HAVE a local FLGS, so nyah. I get my Paizo stuff (and my used 3E/3.5 stuff) off Amazon.

I did buy my Pathfinder Core Rulebook and Bestiary 1 at a FLGS, but then they went out of business. I got my Advanced Players Guide at Barnes and Noble. Everything else, I got online.

Kelsey, if I remember correctly you have posted in a past thread that you lived in or near Aurora, CO? If so there is an FLGS resonably close called Troll Country Games. Their kinda small right now but are growing and are great about ordering in anything they don't have in stock.


dracomancer wrote:
Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:

I don't HAVE a local FLGS, so nyah. I get my Paizo stuff (and my used 3E/3.5 stuff) off Amazon.

I did buy my Pathfinder Core Rulebook and Bestiary 1 at a FLGS, but then they went out of business. I got my Advanced Players Guide at Barnes and Noble. Everything else, I got online.

Kelsey, if I remember correctly you have posted in a past thread that you lived in or near Aurora, CO? If so there is an FLGS resonably close called Troll Country Games. Their kinda small right now but are growing and are great about ordering in anything they don't have in stock.

That's about two and a half hours away from where I live. Not too far, I suppose, if I wanted something fast.

I do, however, hear that Missoula, Montana is a major gaming city, and I'm moving over there next week, so maybe I'll have a FLGS to shop at. Hopefully one that sells used materiel. I buy a LOT of used out of print books, so if they carry them they may get my business.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Toadkiller Dog wrote:


I agree. Here (Serbia), there's no legal ratifications AT ALL. Everybody's free to download what they want. That's one of the reasons there are a whole bunch of protests around Europe against the ACTA.

I can't really argue that this isn't a reason against the protest - even if I think that pirates would find a way to avoid it and continue - at least in Germany, the protesters mostly fight for their rights.

EDIT: And I would hate it, if someone prevented me from accessing this wonderful site, just because someone in homebrew made a variant that might cross the line between fair use and breach. But well that's one of the complaints, they could shut you down without giving you the chance to explain yourself.

Back to the topic: Paizo gives us a lot of free material every month, and I personally love sites like D20pfsrd. So if you just want access to the rules (something usefull for my players without access to my books) there is really no reason to resort to piracy. It's wrong AND completely useless.

And since I want to support Paizo and the distributor of the german version http://www.ulisses-spiele.de I will continue to buy everything I can get my hands on - (I already have the english Beginners Box, but getting the german version would at the very least give me more Tokens^^)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

In Poland, the scale and magnitude of anti-ACTA protests led me to the conclusion that my fellow countrymen consider the ability to torrent movies, series, games and music a god-given right which they will fight for more fervently than against tax increases, budget cuts or aggressive reforms.

Lantern Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

In Germany there also is a problem with FLGS, most of them close because of high housing prices and other similar problems.

You in the US may also be used to be monitored by CIA, FBI, Departement of Homeland Security and the billion other agencies you have. Also you seem to have no problem with some business conglomerates knowing all the private data about you.

While people in Europe normally don´t actively support piracy, most don´t like US capitalism and so called neo-liberalism. People in europe arguing for such laws tend to come from a neo-liberalistic background and have strong ties to some corporate sector who strongly profit from such laws, often in a very direct financial way.


Quote:
In Poland, the scale and magnitude of anti-ACTA protests led me to the conclusion that my fellow countrymen consider the ability to torrent movies, series, games and music a god-given right which they will fight for more fervently than against tax increases, budget cuts or aggressive reforms.

I know that wasn't the intention of the post, but this made me laugh. :D


Hayato Ken wrote:

In Germany there also is a problem with FLGS, most of them close because of high housing prices and other similar problems.

You in the US may also be used to be monitored by CIA, FBI, Departement of Homeland Security and the billion other agencies you have. Also you seem to have no problem with some business conglomerates knowing all the private data about you.

While people in Europe normally don´t actively support piracy, most don´t like US capitalism and so called neo-liberalism. People in europe arguing for such laws tend to come from a neo-liberalistic background and have strong ties to some corporate sector who strongly profit from such laws, often in a very direct financial way.

Yea, US style capitalism sucks. The rich get to make all the political decisions, because some geniuses in SCOTUS decided to go ahead and make it all right to bribe everybody in congress and give the rich a massive advantage in elections. Not to mention those geniuses who got rid of the anti-trust laws, which is why this whole FLGS situation is going on. It is legal for a couple big companies to crush all the small businesses by being so big they can offer prices and stocks smaller guys can't. Land of freedom and opportunity my ass.

Can we have Trust Buster Teddy Roosevelt back now? Please?

Paizo Employee PostMonster General

4 people marked this as a favorite.

While I appreciate that every discussion of PDF piracy inevitably ends in a geopolitical roundtable decrying the ills with modern capitalism and attendant discussion of the plusses and minuses of particular nation-states and their approaches to having a functioning entertainment industry and/or people's ability to eat, live indoors and get quality medical care, maybe we can take this type of thing back to off-topic where it belongs?

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm still interested in the legal ability of leaving PDFs in one's will or estate.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Wicht wrote:
I'm still interested in the legal ability of leaving PDFs in one's will or estate.

It should follow regular property laws, so I would think that you should be able to leave them to a single recipient. Although, as always, you should likely consult a lawyer when drawing up a will.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

Won't it depend on whether you have a license or ownership?

I thought that was the whole point of the WoTC PDF pulling debacle - people thought they'd bought something when they'd actually only purchased a temporary, revocable license.

I think there'd be lots of problems if they're seen as a property right. As Gorbacz pondered, can one trade one's paizo account? If so, what's to stop someone buying an account for a nominal fee, printing out one copy for personal use (as allowed under Paizo's FAQ), then selling the account to the next person in the group for the same nominal fee?

I'd be interested in Paizo's view on inheritability and other such issues - I'm unlikely to leave my PDF collection to anyone, but I could potentially sell them. More pertinently, I'd like to be able to sell some of them, but I just can't see it being practical - provide a little leeway and I suspect there'll be a flood of illegal activity.


Well, a few good notes have been mentioned in this thread. But the main issue here is really that copyright laws are simply too complex and are also untested in courts as of now. Most of them are also patched laws from back when people didn't have internet.

Stuff like ACTA will have very little impact on piracy in my oppinion. Piracy will always excist, because people will ALWAYS seek the path of least resistance.. As someone mentioned, the price of retail dvd's in the most pirated markets are higher than anyone would be able to pay.

I would state that 90% of people with pirated material didn't pirate it because they didn't want to pay for it to the rightfull owner. It is ALWAYS availiability and cost that determines the amount of piracy.

Paizo does handle this quite wisely. They offer pdf's at a significant lesser cost than the printed version, AND they have the PRD as well. It's still not perfect - for one I'd like to have the pdf included when I buy a printed book.. I'd also like to have the subscription offers availiable to my country - or at least from EU so I didn't have to pay import tax and handling.

I'm quite sure that if Paizo pdf's were the same price as the printed versions, you would see a LOT more piracy of their products. Why? Because people enjoy using their laptops and especially tablets in their gaming. And pdf's ROCK for such things. Now they can get a copy of their books, and even whole adventure paths at a reasonable cost - EVEN considering that they may buy the print edition first. With higher prices people would not do this, but they'd still want the pdfs, and therefore pirate them a lot more.

P.S. Paizo, if you can't include the pdf's when you buy a print edition in a store, then you should consider printing a one-time discount code for them in each book, or ship them with codes to be handed out by the store at purchase..

Taldor

blaznee wrote:

P.S. Paizo, if you can't include the pdf's when you buy a print edition in a store, then you should consider printing a one-time discount code for them in each book, or ship them with codes to be handed out by the store at purchase..

Vic Wertz has a couple of posts where he lays out why this isn't feasible currently. I think it is in this thread and here and here.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:


I do, however, hear that Missoula, Montana is a major gaming city, and I'm moving over there next week, so maybe I'll have a FLGS to shop at. Hopefully one that sells used materiel. I buy a LOT of used out of print books, so if they carry them they may get my business.

Not often you see "major city" and "Montana" in the same sentence.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

1 person marked this as a favorite.
deinol wrote:
Wicht wrote:
I'm still interested in the legal ability of leaving PDFs in one's will or estate.
It should follow regular property laws, so I would think that you should be able to leave them to a single recipient. Although, as always, you should likely consult a lawyer when drawing up a will.

I believe that the legal standing of this is still in the process of being tested. Have a look at this article.

Frankly, it's a legal can of worms that I don't particularly want to be the first one to open. Our policy is that we're providing PDFs—and Paizo accounts in general—for personal use only.

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hmm. Thats an interesting read. And makes me think of a related question: what are the actual legal rights of a spouse when it comes to PDF use?

Generally it is assumed in a marriage that what belongs to one belongs to the other, but if it was to eventually be ruled that PDFs and other electronic files are not estate properties you can pass on to someone else, are you in legal murkiness when your spouse uses them or copies them.

Likewise, I share my passwords pretty freely with my wife, but is that technically a violation of the terms of the agreement you make with electronic distributors?

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

15 people marked this as a favorite.
Wicht wrote:

Hmm. Thats an interesting read. And makes me think of a related question: what are the actual legal rights of a spouse when it comes to PDF use?

Generally it is assumed in a marriage that what belongs to one belongs to the other, but if it was to eventually be ruled that PDFs and other electronic files are not estate properties you can pass on to someone else, are you in legal murkiness when your spouse uses them or copies them.

Likewise, I share my passwords pretty freely with my wife, but is that technically a violation of the terms of the agreement you make with electronic distributors?

I'm really not comfortable with this type of discussion. We could spend a bunch of money getting a lawyer to write up what effectively amounts to a license for using our PDFs and strict Terms of Use for paizo.com, and then we can spend a bunch of time trying to enforce the letter of that law... or we could do what we're doing now, and just ask that people be reasonable and don't share their PDFs with the general public. The latter course of option provides less protection for Paizo, but in the end, I think it's a better experience for our customers. So let's all just all not do anything that makes Paizo *need* to codify this crap.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:
Wicht wrote:

Hmm. Thats an interesting read. And makes me think of a related question: what are the actual legal rights of a spouse when it comes to PDF use?

Generally it is assumed in a marriage that what belongs to one belongs to the other, but if it was to eventually be ruled that PDFs and other electronic files are not estate properties you can pass on to someone else, are you in legal murkiness when your spouse uses them or copies them.

Likewise, I share my passwords pretty freely with my wife, but is that technically a violation of the terms of the agreement you make with electronic distributors?

I'm really not comfortable with this type of discussion. We could spend a bunch of money getting a lawyer to write up what effectively amounts to a license for using our PDFs and strict Terms of Use for paizo.com, and then we can spend a bunch of time trying to enforce the letter of that law... or we could do what we're doing now, and just ask that people be reasonable and don't share their PDFs with the general public. The latter course of option provides less protection for Paizo, but in the end, I think it's a better experience for our customers. So let's all just all not do anything that makes Paizo *need* to codify this crap.

I really like that stance, and I hope that it will serve Paizo well.


5 people marked this as a favorite.
Vic Wertz wrote:
So let's all just all not do anything that makes Paizo *need* to codify this crap.

It needs to be easier to see.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:
I'm really not comfortable with this type of discussion. We could spend a bunch of money getting a lawyer to write up what effectively amounts to a license for using our PDFs and strict Terms of Use for paizo.com, and then we can spend a bunch of time trying to enforce the letter of that law... or we could do what we're doing now, and just ask that people be reasonable and don't share their PDFs with the general public. The latter course of option provides less protection for Paizo, but in the end, I think it's a better experience for our customers. So let's all just all not do anything that makes Paizo *need* to codify this crap.

Cheers, Vic. Seems very reasonable.

We should treat you right and you'll treat us right and nobody has to give a lawyer any money, which is always a good thing (all due apologies to Gorbacz and co).

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber
Steve Geddes wrote:
(all due apologies to Gorbacz and co).

No biggie. Got injured in an accident? Mistreated in a hospital? Cheated on insurance? My phone number is...


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

Somehow I thought you were a constitutional lawyer. Did I make that up?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

Yeah, I am actually more of an academic and a teacher (academic teacher folks, no children are being harmed by my vitriolic snark in everyday life) than a practising lawyer, but I do get to write "practical" stuff every once in a while.

What I am NOT is an expert on labour law ("how many days of sick leave have I left this year?"), which none of my friends seem to understand...


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

Heh, I sympathise. I administer retirement funds which is all compliance, lodgement of forms and accounting stuff - most parties I go to these days involve lots of conversations beginning "What's happening with the stockmarket?" then lots of eye glazing when I tell them what I actually know about.


And here I found the perfect thread to post this in, but I was late to the party...

I just go ahead post it anyways, 'cause it's sfw.

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