Let's Marry Pathfinder and 4e together for fun and betterment of all!!!


Homebrew and House Rules


So this afternoon I started work on a pathfinder home brew that addresses some of my biggest issues with it. I love pathfinder in and out, the systems great for customization and the classes all feel alive and useful by design. My Issue is that its a metric F*** ton of crunch, which I am no fan of. I don't need my rpg systems to care so much about "realism" that they confuse my players and take a whole session to create characters.

I looked around on Google for a pathfinder lite, and I found several but they all had the issue of dropping functionality for archetypes and cut out many of the customization bits I love. Then I remembered how 4e Essentials slimmed down 4e, and took on a more "traditional" d20 leveling progression. So I've combined Pathfinders customization bit with the simpler approach of 4e essentials.

Health: Still based on die size. full die size + con at first level, half die + con each level after. The addition of healing surges(borrowing a house rule). surges per/day 5+con healing d6+lvl in combat, and d6+lvl x2 outside of combat with dc 15 heal check. standard in combat to spend healing surge gaining healing and +2 to ac,fort,ref, and will.If unconscious, dc 15 heal to grant unconscious player a spending of surge.

Skills: cut the skills down to athletics,endurance, acrobatics, stealth, thievery, arcana, history, religion, dungeoneering, heal, insight, nature, perception, bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, and streetwise. I used to play 4e and these base skills work for across the board. Also some classes receive special skills. Preform for bards for example. Each class also receive base number of trained skills equal to base skill point(monk has 4+int, so 4 trained skills). All skills receive 1/2 character level(rounded down) scaling. armor check pen applies to all str,dex,and con based skills. Training in skill nets +3 bonus.

Initiative & Speed: normal

Defenses: AC, CMD, fort, reflex, and will saves all function normally. Fort,reflex, and will having normal progression determined by class.

Attack bonus, CMB, Damage: function the same

Feats and Ability Score increases: normal

Multiclassing: Functions as normal however gaining half base skills and new trained skills and half hit die +con

My design goals with this is to make for the simplest but most open character creation for pathfinder. skills function as per DnD 4E with bonus from pathfinder. Combat function the same aswell.

Possiblilties:
1st level multiple times per day power becoming at will.

Barbarian: Rage as many times per day as needed, however only for 4+con rounds and would still be fatigued for twice as long as time spent raging and unable to rage

Bard:Same concept as rage for performances

Cleric: Unlimited casts of domain 3+wis abilities

Druid: unlimited casts of domain 3+wis abilities or companion

Fighter: Arms don't get tired

Monk: Unlimited stunning fist or equivalent

Paladin: Unlimited Smites

Ranger: Woodsmen don't get tired

Rogue: Everything has a back

Sorcerer: Unlimited cast of bloodline 3+cha abilities

Wizards: Unlimited cast of school 3+int abilities

Alchemist:Unlimited Bombs

Cavalier:Unlimited Challenges

Gunslinger: Always has grit anyways

Inquisitor:Unlimited Domain casts

Magus: Refilling of arcane pool similar to gunslinger grit. refills 1 point on spell critical and spell kill(only if benefiting from spell combat)

Oracle:very Specific on what is unlimited cast

Summoner: Unlimited cast of summon monsters

Witch: Mostly extendible abilities.

Ninja,Samurai,Anti-Paladin follow the rules for their alternative class.

My design ideas for making something for each class as reliable as a basic attack are to make it so that each class will always always have its "special" unique ability all the time. Thus making each class always feel unique.

With a combination of at will 0-lvl spells and each class having its "thing" always there, pushing forward and adventuring become more narrative and exciting. Rather then resting because the clerics out of spells or the wizards got nothing, you can keep going and not lose momentum. Stops are determined by fatigue, injuries, and need to sleep.

Well that's everything for now, I'm going to keep going with this I would love to get this table ready ASAP. PLEASE BEAT MY IDEAS UP, respectful of course. I want this to really work for 1-20 lvls and to be easy to understand, with reliable combat actions, and able to handle some serious challenge.

Thank you


Wow, looks like you put quite a bit of work into this. Most things seem about the same, and shouldn't cause too much trouble.

However, a few of your choices for at-will abilities seriously, seriously need to be tuned down. I understand the idea of wanting to give them an at-will ability, but most of these things were not designed to be used that way. Many of them will result in wildly, wildly overpowered characters.

Alchemists, Paladins, and Cavaliers are making out like bandits. They are already quite strong, kept in check mostly by limited use of their abilities. Given free range... I don't even want to think about it.

Meanwhile, other classes get left out in the cold. If a basic attack is good enough for the Fighter or Rogue, why isn't it good enough for the Paladin, Monk, or Gunslinger?

My serious recommendation would be to ditch the entire at-will system you have set up here. These abilities are not balanced for infinite use, and will wildly increase offensive output for some while leaving others comparatively useless. If you want unique at-will abilities, I'd recommend designing new ones.


What Mort said, pretty much.


Mort the Cleverly Named wrote:

Wow, looks like you put quite a bit of work into this. Most things seem about the same, and shouldn't cause too much trouble.

However, a few of your choices for at-will abilities seriously, seriously need to be tuned down. I understand the idea of wanting to give them an at-will ability, but most of these things were not designed to be used that way. Many of them will result in wildly, wildly overpowered characters.

Alchemists, Paladins, and Cavaliers are also making out like bandits. They are already quite strong, kept in check mostly by limited use of their abilities. Given free range... I don't even want to think about it.

Meanwhile, other classes get left out in the cold. If a basic attack is good enough for the Fighter or Rogue, why isn't it good enough for the Paladin, Monk, or Gunslinger?

My serious recommendation would be to ditch the entire at-will system you have set up here. These abilities are not balanced for infinite use, and will wildly increase offensive output for some while leaving others comparatively useless. If you want unique at-will abilities, I'd recommend designing new ones.

Fine points, would you mind being more detailed on each of the classes. I have no reservation on re-balancing these class features. Fighter, Ranger, and Rogue have the more ideal abilities I'm looking for all of their stuff is passive. I can always drop die size and bonuses. Also the Gunslinger has the abilities to refresh their ability and it'd be rare for a gunslinger to not have grit, which is also an ideal mechanic.


I can state the issues I see with them, but I seriously have no idea how to balance these things. Many of them would require a total rewrite of the ability and all related discoveries, talents, or whatever. However, I can still go through and detail what I see as being potentially problematic.

Alchemist is going to go nuts. Remember, you only need to hit touch AC with bombs, which makes it very easy to hit. Given that it is easy to hit, you can use Quick Draw, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Rapid Shot to get off crazy amounts of bombs. I saw a build that dealt thousands of points of nearly irresistible damage over 3 rounds thanks to Force Bomb and Sticky Bomb. Even at lower levels, you could easily force an enemy to make 6 saves against debuffs a round, forever. Or "only" get the equivalent of 6 Sneak Attacks that almost never miss and can be used at range. Scary.

Barbarian isn't too bad. Much stronger at the early levels when Rage is rare, but less so later. There might be a concern with feats or abilities that use extra rounds of Rage, as well as with Rage cycling (that is, switching Rage on and off constantly) once they are immune to fatigue. But overall, this one isn't the end of the world. Probably won't even be noticed at mid to high levels.

Bards... are they supposed to become fatigued after playing or something too? Are they limited to 4+Con rounds of Performance? Regardless, like the Barbarian. Although I can't think of much that uses up extra Performance rounds off the top of my head. Moderate power increase, probably won't be noticed at mid to high levels.

Cavaliers... see Paladin, below. Same deal.

Cleric, Druid, Sorcerers, Wizards, and Inquisitors are fine. I'm sure there is something abusive you could do, and there will be a bit of a power increase at low levels, but nothing too crazy.

Gunslingers get to regenerate grit, but they can't just use it totally freely. With infinite grit, every shot will be a Deadeye, every dodge will be a Gunslinger's Dodge, and every clear of a weapon will be a Quick Clear. At higher levels you get things like reloading as a swift action every round. Oh, and rerolling ever single saving throw and skill check at 15. And at 19, they can't be reduced to less than 1 hitpoint. Ever.

Magus is going to get a big power boost. Expect nigh-infinite AP (and by extension, spells) at higher levels, when wielding a 15-20 threat weapon and using empowered Shocking Grip. The Magus is already very dangerous when he novas, and this makes that nova be self-sustaining.

Monks, not a huge issue. They get a ton of Stunning Fist anyway.

Oracle is going to super depend on what you give free casts of.

Paladin smite is a severe issue. It is a swift action to activate smite, so you can assume they are going to be using it against everything evil that they fight. Being a Paladin, you can safely assume a heck of a lot of stuff is going to be evil. So Paladins basically get +Cha on all attacks, +Level to damage, +Cha to AC against that creature, and ignore all DR. Compare to, say, the Fighter. Their weapon training caps out at a whopping +4 attack and damage. Not really the same ballpark.

Summoner actually isn't that bad, so long as you ban archetypes. But if this was combined with Master Summoner... shudder.

I hope this explains the issues I see. Fighters attacks and Rogue's Sneak attack are balanced to be used all the time. These other abilities are balanced to only be used occasionally, and are thus more powerful. To remove that limitation throws things out of whack. I mean, would you give a Wizard infinite spells? Of course not, since the limited number of them is a primary balancing characteristic. You could rebalance everything so it wasn't a problem, but you are looking at far, far more than an afternoon's worth of work. Perhaps it would just be easier to play straight 4e, or some other system that inherently gives you the experience you are looking for?


unlimited bombs for the alchemist ... that was the only thing that kept him sane, and may I remind that he has a tumor as a familiar, tentacles and several arms.

your general direction is okay, but for nearly every class I can see likely abuse. Wizard with unlimited swift action teleports.

My bet is for a divorce filed in the first month.


Errrr no lets not I'm most uninmpressed with 4th ed. Still if thats what you want to run then best of luck to you.


Thankfully you don't seem to have included the 4e 'power divisions' of at-will, encounter and daily powers i.e. everyone's a wizard. Having DM'ed and played 4e before discovering the relative sanity of PF, this was the most annoying thing about it; no class felt unique when they all had 10-20 powers at lvl13 and each with a variety of effects...

Also, the skills from 4e were silly. At every 2nd level up, ALL skills increasing by 1, purely from the half-level bonus... seems a bit ridiculous to me; yeah, that elven ranger who never went near a city in his life has something like +10 to streetwise. Which means he's more street-savvy than most city-dwelling commoners... sense, it makes none. Plus it meant that at higher levels the party I used to DM never failed a skill check (though that also might've been me setting DCs too low).

Lastly, I'm glad you didn't bring in some of the whackier 4e classes, like the Battlemind. That thing is OP on a silver platter.

Liberty's Edge

As I play by RAW I wouldn't play such an unofficial mash up, however I can definitely see why you want to do this as both 3.x and 4e have some great stuff that the other doesn't.

I guess this is why I am somewhat excited about D&D Next - if it can provide an official way to do such a mash up that has undergone fairly extensive play testing then I am all for it.


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Shouldn't this be a House Rules/Conversion thread?

And have you looked at Trailblazer? It melds/adopts some 4e-isms and merges it with a 3.5/PF framework.

Silver Crusade

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Tsukiyomi wrote:
So this afternoon I started work on a pathfinder home brew that addresses some of my biggest issues with it. I love pathfinder in and out, the systems great for customization and the classes all feel alive and useful by design. My Issue is that its a metric F*** ton of crunch, which I am no fan of. I don't need my rpg systems to care so much about "realism" that they confuse my players and take a whole session to create characters.

I'm gonna stop you right there. Pathfinder cares nothing for realism just like D&D does not care for it. I am assuming you got into RPGs with 4th edition so let me just tell you that 4th edition is about as streamlined a system as you will find. With that simplicity comes a certain blandness as all the characters kinda feel the same.

Systems that do realism are very complex and involved as they try to simulate real world effects and attributes. Character creation, character improvement, combat, skills all tend to be very complex in realistic games. Fortunately, these games are boring and dull and die a quick death.

D&D and PF are not streamlined or simple. They have a good sized learning curve but the base mechanics are pretty simple: Roll a d20 based on that result some damage or knowledge or both might result. Creating characters becomes very easy once you have a little experience. Once I decide to play a class or concept I can create a character in less than 20 minutes. I am sure some people can do it faster.

Really the problem is choosing. Most of the time in character creation is usually taken up with deciding what to play. With 4e classes are so bland that choosing one over the other does not matter much. In PF the choice matters so people spend a lot of time on it.

The "at will" mechanic in 4th edition is based upon abilities that are not that powerful. You also have the once per combat abilities for slightly stronger stuff. It was rightly compared to World of Warcraft in that characters could go through an entire adventure and never need to rest because most abilities constantly reset.

In PF and 3.x that does not work very well as the rationing of resources is very important. If you use up your rounds of rage or your smite or whatever then you will feel it and the choices you make early in the day affect battles later in the day. That goes all the way back to the roots of D&D in tactical war-games. The game is built around the assumption of the usage of resources on a daily basis and by giving unlimited uses you throw that out the window.

The result is that you will throw off the ability to make encounters that challenge your players because they don't need to worry about using up resources. A paladin with unlimited smites it going to cut through everything like butter. Same with other classes with the same type of mechanic.

So how will you get the mechanics you like without all the rules? Only use the core book. The extra books introduce new mechanics to make new classes and equipment work. So you end up learning all this extra stuff without mastering the basics. Use just the core book until the game mechanics are easy for you to use. Then add another book to the game until you master it. I have played D&D for nearly 35 years and 3rd edition from since it first came out. Even back then I limited the number of resources my players could use so I could have a handle on the rules rather than needing to constantly look things up in unfamiliar books.


Moved thread.


Oooo.

I'm interested to see how you reconcile the power disparity between some of these. An elegant way to avoid per day power tracking has been an interest of mine for months, but I never did think about cranking it up to 11 like that.

I'm gonna mull this over for a bit.

Please let's not have any more anti-4e snark, it is useless and inappropriate given the thread premise.


I agree with Lincoln. I don't like 4E, but it has some good ideas, and a PF/4E marriage, if done right, could be something fairly good.


Everyone thank you for your comments. As I stated I want to get this table ready and playable, and am willing to do what is needed to do so. I would never bring this as is to any table, as even as I was writing it I could see many of the problems that have been pointed out. As Stated much more work is needed.I will be spending as much time as possible on this project.


karkon wrote:
Tsukiyomi wrote:
So this afternoon I started work on a pathfinder home brew that addresses some of my biggest issues with it. I love pathfinder in and out, the systems great for customization and the classes all feel alive and useful by design. My Issue is that its a metric F*** ton of crunch, which I am no fan of. I don't need my rpg systems to care so much about "realism" that they confuse my players and take a whole session to create characters.
I'm gonna stop you right there. Pathfinder cares nothing for realism just like D&D does not care for it....

In fairness the OP only said their players were confused. I will at least give him/her the benefit of the doubt and assume she is speaking for people who have trouble learning PF or don't want to take the time to learn a system as robust as PF is.

I do agree with you that realism is not a PF issue. In real life people don't get to dodge things like explosions if they are paralyzed.


I'd love at will abilities, but I think it would require rewrites of a lot of things to adjust the power. If you do go with a system like that, I'd suggest you give rangers the hunter's quarry ability.

I've been thinking of coming up with a system that merges all of a player's available resources into one pool to draw on for spells and abilities where applicable. Hopefully it would simplify things, allow more flexibility, and keep the same balance without too much trouble.

Basically, you'd take the inverse of the hit die for a class to determine the size of their energy reservoir. So a d12 class gets a d6 every level to their energy pool, d10 classes get a d8, and so on. Then you just assign an energy cost to each ability they possess and you have one pool to keep track of that's around the same general scale as hp. You would probably add ability modifiers to this every level as well. I haven't gone far enough with it to know if it would be worthwhile or even doable.


Tsukiyomi wrote:


Skills: All skills receive 1/2 character level(rounded down) scaling. armor check pen applies to all str,dex,and con based skills. Training in skill nets +3 bonus.

By this do you mean how many ranks you have in the skill is equal to 1/2 your level? If so, this will put some skill DC's as outlined in the book out of reach. For example using Acrobatics to avoid AoO will become more difficult as players get higher in level, since their Acrobatics check will improve slower than their enemies CMD. I would just leave it as is, ranks = level.


karkon wrote:
Tsukiyomi wrote:
So this afternoon I started work on a pathfinder home brew that addresses some of my biggest issues with it. I love pathfinder in and out, the systems great for customization and the classes all feel alive and useful by design. My Issue is that its a metric F*** ton of crunch, which I am no fan of. I don't need my rpg systems to care so much about "realism" that they confuse my players and take a whole session to create characters.

I'm gonna stop you right there. Pathfinder cares nothing for realism just like D&D does not care for it. I am assuming you got into RPGs with 4th edition so let me just tell you that 4th edition is about as streamlined a system as you will find. With that simplicity comes a certain blandness as all the characters kinda feel the same.

Systems that do realism are very complex and involved as they try to simulate real world effects and attributes. Character creation, character improvement, combat, skills all tend to be very complex in realistic games. Fortunately, these games are boring and dull and die a quick death.

D&D and PF are not streamlined or simple. They have a good sized learning curve but the base mechanics are pretty simple: Roll a d20 based on that result some damage or knowledge or both might result. Creating characters becomes very easy once you have a little experience. Once I decide to play a class or concept I can create a character in less than 20 minutes. I am sure some people can do it faster.

Really the problem is choosing. Most of the time in character creation is usually taken up with deciding what to play. With 4e classes are so bland that choosing one over the other does not matter much. In PF the choice matters so people spend a lot of time on it.

The "at will" mechanic in 4th edition is based upon abilities that are not that powerful. You also have the once per combat abilities for slightly stronger stuff. It was rightly compared to World of Warcraft in that characters could go through an entire...

I didn't want to derail my thread on home brew 3.5/4e development, but I feel as I should for this comment. I would like to state first and foremost my reasons for doing this home brew are not Pathfinder/3.5 is too hard. My introduction to the hobby came with 3.0 and I've played all editions except 2.0.

My library of games includes some 25+ different games, ranging in complexity from the rather simple indie games like lady black bird to super crunch games like exalted. In fact most of the games I own and actively play are on the crunchy size. I am comfortable playing crunch games, but they inherently are hard to get started and require constant reference.

It doesn't matter how many books you include because while the core mechanics of the 3.5 engine are simple enough, all the bullshit built around them only help to slow the game down. My goal here is streamline the system down to both the require mechanics and the optional customization bits(archetypes,feats,spells,class features).

If you have any question as to the complexity of 3.5 engine. Climb checks at 1st level for a 40ft cliff. These are not fun, these are boring, life threatening and take forever. It is rules like this I aim to remove and that is why I'm doing this. Anyways back to the topic at hand.


Round 2
After going over the comments and addressing the errors of my original idea I've revised the "at will" abilities for each class. Both small buffs and large nerfs were given. Are these new abilities more streamlined and balanced?

Barbarian:Rage

A barbarian can call upon inner reserves of strength and ferocity, granting her additional combat prowess.

Starting at 1st level, a barbarian can rage for any number of times per day but only for rounds equal to 4 + her Constitution modifier in a given use.

Bard:Bardic Performance
A bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects on those around him, including himself if desired.

He can use this ability any number of times per day but only for rounds equal to 4 + his Charisma modifier in a given use and can end his performance as a free action and is fatigued after Preforming for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the Preforming.

Cleric: Unlimited casts of domain 3+wis abilities. Damaging abilities damage changed to die + wis+ 1 for every two Cleric levels possessed

Druid: unlimited casts of domain 3+wis abilities or companion.Damaging abilities damage changed to die + wis+ 1 for every two druid levels possessed

Fighter: No change

Monk: Unlimited stunning fist or stunning fist replacement feature

Paladin:Smite Evil (Su)
Any number of times per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite.

If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Cha bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to ½ the number of levels the paladin possess. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.

In addition, while smite evil is in effect, the paladin gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any) to her AC against attacks made by the target of the smite. If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.
The smite evil effect remains until the target of the smite is dead

Ranger:No change

Rogue: No change

Sorcerer: Unlimited cast of bloodline 3+cha abilities. Damaging abilities damage changed to die + cha+ 1 for every two sorcerer levels possessed

Wizards: Unlimited cast of school 3+int abilities. Damaging abilities damage changed to die + int+ 1 for every two wizard levels possessed

Alchemist: Bomb (Su)
An alchemist can use any number of bombs each day.On a direct hit, an alchemist’s bomb inflicts 1d6 points of fire damage + additional damage equal to the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier + 1 for every two Alchemist levels you possessed.

Cavalier: Challenge
Any number of times per day, a cavalier can challenge a foe to combat. As a swift action, the cavalier chooses one target within sight to challenge. The cavalier’s melee attacks deal extra damage whenever the attacks are made against the target of his challenge. This extra damage is equal to +1, this bonus increases by +1 for every four levels the cavalier possesses.

Challenging a foe requires much of the cavalier’s concentration. The cavalier takes a –2 penalty to his Armor Class, except against attacks made by the target of his challenge.
The challenge remains in effect until the target is dead or unconscious or until the combat ends. Each cavalier’s challenge also includes another effect which is listed in the section describing the cavalier’s order.

Gunslinger: No Change

Inquisitor:Unlimited cast of domain 3+wis abilities. Damaging abilities damage changed to die + wis+ 1 for every two levels possessed

Magus: No Change

Oracle:*work in progress*

Summoner: Unlimited cast of summon monsters, however master summoner may only summon a max of creatures equal to cha modifier

Witch:No change

Ninja,Samurai,Anti-Paladin follow the rules for their alternative class.

* instances of "no change" mean the class is not altered in anyway
**The nature of the oracle Revelation make for some tough "at will" alterations. some are just like wizard/sorcerer powers other are more difficult.Suggestions on how to handle oracle would be appreciated

I looked at the math for standard basic attack development(magic weapons and enhancements included) and tried to meld the abilities to better follow those mathematics. Any suggestion or comments? How did I do?


Correction to paladin smite
"the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases by and additional +1 per the number of levels the paladin possess."


Now doesn't that nerf the alchemist's main damage dealing ability? :)


Jen the GM wrote:
Now doesn't that nerf the alchemist's main damage dealing ability? :)

Considerably so :). Yet this way I can increase the base number of d6 to the damage in order to buff the ability. Since Alchemist bombs should pack a bit more punch then a alchemist fire I think 2d6 or 3d6 would be more appropriate for base die.


I like the write-up you've put together on joining Pathfinder and 4e. I had a similar thought about how I didn't like that the characters generally only have the ability to fight for 3 good encounters before needing a night of rest to recover their limited-use abilities, but I feel like there needs to be some kind of limiting agent in place still.

In my campaign (starting next week, so it hasn't been tested yet), I'm going to have defeated enemies drop powerups, like in a platform game. These powerups will come in 'health' and 'weapon' varieties, and must be used within 1 minute of appearing. The 'health' ones will heal a small amount (so not full recovery after each battle), while the 'weapon' ones will recharge uses of class abilities, ki pools, spell slots, etc. I haven't completely worked out how I'm going to manage it (or what's reasonable), but for the first session with 5 level 4 PCs, the enemies will each have a 50% of dropping a 1d4 health powerup, and a 25% chance of dropping a 1d2 weapon powerup (1 point will be worth any class ability at this level, or 1 spell level. 2 points will be needed to recharge a single level 2 spell slot, for example).

I'm hoping that this will solve the '3 encounters and sleep' pattern without giving the players completely free usage of abilities.


Will there be any in-world justification of these powerups or are they an explicitly metagame thing?

Unless it was particularly clever and nicely built into the game world, it would drive me crazy.


BetaSprite wrote:

I like the write-up you've put together on joining Pathfinder and 4e. I had a similar thought about how I didn't like that the characters generally only have the ability to fight for 3 good encounters before needing a night of rest to recover their limited-use abilities, but I feel like there needs to be some kind of limiting agent in place still.

In my campaign (starting next week, so it hasn't been tested yet), I'm going to have defeated enemies drop powerups, like in a platform game. These powerups will come in 'health' and 'weapon' varieties, and must be used within 1 minute of appearing. The 'health' ones will heal a small amount (so not full recovery after each battle), while the 'weapon' ones will recharge uses of class abilities, ki pools, spell slots, etc. I haven't completely worked out how I'm going to manage it (or what's reasonable), but for the first session with 5 level 4 PCs, the enemies will each have a 50% of dropping a 1d4 health powerup, and a 25% chance of dropping a 1d2 weapon powerup (1 point will be worth any class ability at this level, or 1 spell level. 2 points will be needed to recharge a single level 2 spell slot, for example).

I'm hoping that this will solve the '3 encounters and sleep' pattern without giving the players completely free usage of abilities.

An interesting idea, I'd like to know how it goes. :) True a limiter is needed but I feel it would be better to have it somewhere along the lines of fatigue,exhaustion,injury. Not to be "realistic" :) I can't say I've ever known a party to rest for things like sleep without something like "if you sleep 8 hours you'll get your stuff back". I'd like the resting to be more narrative. The heroes stop and rest for the night after a long day of travel and battling orcs, not at noon with full health because the cleric ran out of healing :) A fatigue system may need to be put in place.


thejeff wrote:

Will there be any in-world justification of these powerups or are they an explicitly metagame thing?

Unless it was particularly clever and nicely built into the game world, it would drive me crazy.

I'm making this home brew as a "new edition" of the game, so yes it would all be meta-game and mechanics. :) but thats not a bad thing.


Hero points, Armor as dr,called shot, and wounds and vigor will be standard. I'll be running them in testing. Just thought I'd throw that out there. :)

Grand Lodge

The Perfect Marriage:

Take the Pathfinder administration, publisher, designers, art, customer service, rules and setting.

Add the WotC IP for Mind Flayers, Beholders, Githyanki, Yuan Ti, and some others and the IP for Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Ravenloft, Planescape and a few others.

Perfect.


W E Ray wrote:

The Perfect Marriage:

Take the Pathfinder administration, publisher, designers, art, customer service, rules and setting.

Add the WotC IP for Mind Flayers, Beholders, Githyanki, Yuan Ti, and some others and the IP for Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Ravenloft, Planescape and a few others.

Perfect.

Indeed, Pathfinder would just have to exercise and loss some weight after eating such a big meal of awesome. :D


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The reason that this might work is that 3.5 assumed multiple consecutive encounters in its design, but players have always worked to subvert that wherever possible, leading to an ad-hoc single-encounter balance.

It looks like you're moving away from per day powers and into a single- encounter design. If you can get it balanced, all of the Kingmaker GMs of the future will thank you.

I'll be watching this one.


thejeff wrote:

Will there be any in-world justification of these powerups or are they an explicitly metagame thing?

Unless it was particularly clever and nicely built into the game world, it would drive me crazy.

Surprisingly, yes. =)

Here's the short version:
The campaign is similar in story to the Mega Man X series, where there are mechanical versions of all of the races. These living constructs are powered by refractors (which are magical crystals that are infused with magic deep underground, where magic originates), so when one of them is destroyed, the refractor becomes unstable and may be used to infuse another living or mechanical creature with power.

I have a more complicated explanation, but I tend to ramble, so you'd probably end up getting the entire history of my world in the process.


BetaSprite wrote:
thejeff wrote:

Will there be any in-world justification of these powerups or are they an explicitly metagame thing?

Unless it was particularly clever and nicely built into the game world, it would drive me crazy.

Surprisingly, yes. =)

Here's the short version:
The campaign is similar in story to the Mega Man X series, where there are mechanical versions of all of the races. These living constructs are powered by refractors (which are magical crystals that are infused with magic deep underground, where magic originates), so when one of them is destroyed, the refractor becomes unstable and may be used to infuse another living or mechanical creature with power.

I have a more complicated explanation, but I tend to ramble, so you'd probably end up getting the entire history of my world in the process.

That sounds like a fantastic game! your using pathfinder? Impressive! Rather excited about this honestly. :)


Evil Lincoln wrote:

The reason that this might work is that 3.5 assumed multiple consecutive encounters in its design, but players have always worked to subvert that wherever possible, leading to an ad-hoc single-encounter balance.

It looks like you're moving away from per day powers and into a single- encounter design. If you can get it balanced, all of the Kingmaker GMs of the future will thank you.

I'll be watching this one.

Why thank you Evil Lincoln for your support. :) You've also hit the nail on the head. I've always admired rpg's for their potential to create grand epics, however 3.5 systems have always serve to make "one encounter a day" adventures.If players always feel like their becoming weaker as they adventure their more likely to only go till they've reach the mid ground of their power scale. I'd like to make it so players always feel that they CAN keep going but its weighed against whether they should. :)

Also you mentioned Kingmaker, I've never played a Kingmaker game so I have no experience with it. Could you expanded on what you were saying, included some of the issues you face as a gm or player.I would like to try to included answers to those problems in this. Thanks much :)


Tsukiyomi wrote:
thejeff wrote:

Will there be any in-world justification of these powerups or are they an explicitly metagame thing?

Unless it was particularly clever and nicely built into the game world, it would drive me crazy.

I'm making this home brew as a "new edition" of the game, so yes it would all be meta-game and mechanics. :) but thats not a bad thing.

Herp derp derp just realized what was said haha :)


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The Kingmaker adventure path is all about wilderness exploration. It is laid out in such a way that you rarely have more than two encounters per day, usually one. This is great for that type of story, but counter intuitive for the encounter balance metrics in PFRPG. GMs still balancing encounters using the unmodified CRs find their PCs waltzing through encounters with little effort.

If you remove the per day limitation, but introduce conditional limitations to keep powers at the same frequency in a single encounter without the daily limit, it would work well for that type of game.

You need to make per day powers into something more conditional, like sneak attack or favored enemy. You have some good ideas up thread. I might consider making smite at-will but limited to evil targets much higher in level than the paladin. Your deity gives you a boost for the BBEG, but leaves the small fries to you.

That's just one example if trying to maintain the frequency of the powers without daily limitation... And not a great one. I'm keen to see if you can make conditions that approach the same frequency as the RAW.


Another variable I would consider working with is "casting time" ... Some powers with daily limits would still be with using even if they took 2-3 rounds to wind up. The really good ones anyway.

It could work better than changing the mechanics on things like alchemist bombs, where a multi-round windup might even feel a little more "realistic".


Half orc grenadier for the lulz.

As for ways to mate pathfinder and 4e there is some interesting things you can do. First off is to fix how defenses work within pathfinder to bring casters in line with some of the other classes. Next thing to do is to scale health up to respectable levels. Then I would condense skills. I would also put in status effects such as bloodied and make moving diagonal just 1 space.


Tsukiyomi wrote:
BetaSprite wrote:
thejeff wrote:
*snip*
*snip*
That sounds like a fantastic game! your using pathfinder? Impressive! Rather excited about this honestly. :)

Hmm... I hadn't really thought about sharing it. I suppose it would be a waste to keep the ideas to myself if others could also use the ideas. I'll see about making a more detailed write-up. Things are super busy right now, so it might be a while.

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