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Shadow demons are mean


Advice

51 to 83 of 83 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

Yeah, my group did this encounter recently, we barely managed to scrape tpgeather a win. (a paladin & a sorcerer spamming magic missle and getting lucky on SR) the other 4 members of the party couldn't do anything, especoally the rogue who was possessed by it. The Paladin was the only thing that kept us alive.

I would call this encounter aweful design, as we recorded exactly what the Mcguffin did, and it seemed like it wouldn't have helped. Mentioning that it is an auto-win to the GM isn't very helpful for the PCs, if they know the odds of it working. Not to mentionthe fact that players frequently sell or forget items they get as random rewards.


So, a chance to use an action to allow another PC to act and possibly end the whole extra tough encounter isn't worth trying because the odds are bad? Where's your gamer faith in luck? Where's your sense of heroism? It's always worth going for the awesome move over the smart one. What sort of smart risk-averse person becomes an adventurer anyways? Go big or go tactical, going big is more fun even if it fails. This encounter isn't an Int check for the party, it's an adventurer check.

Shadow Lodge

int the pathfinder survival guide, they have a sweet section for alchemiststhat can make sunrods into flash bangs. standard action with a dc 15 craft check will let you slap that incorperal bastard in the face for a round or 2.also i think they have the alchemical salv in the game now that lets you hit incorperial creatures in pathfinder. make sure if you survive this, that you stock up on those lol.


Gwyrdallan wrote:
Yeah, my group did this encounter recently, we barely managed to scrape tpgeather a win. (a paladin & a sorcerer spamming magic missle and getting lucky on SR) the other 4 members of the party couldn't do anything, especoally the rogue who was possessed by it. The Paladin was the only thing that kept us alive.

Were you smiting and shooting magic missiles at the rogue? Because that sounds painful!


I trow 2 at my 4 man 7th level group togheter with a coulple of assorted mosters of cr 5-6. The celestial sorcer tanked them for half an hour while they cleaned the mess. Really, Magic armor + shield + circle of protection, he got like 22 AC against incorporeal. Casting haste on the first round he bumped to 23. SD have +12 to hit, so that's a 50/50 of 2d6, for an average of 7 DPR. Quite a disappointment for a CR 7.

PS they are all first-timers to tabletop rpg.


Our party ran into the same thing, And even though I was a uber raging twf 3 attacks barbarian I still had to make 1 50% check to beat its ghost form 2.another 50% chance to miss because of the darkness. I was sure we were going to die MY barbarian/unarmed fighter ran out of rage 12 rounds!!!!

we even had a cleric and we would of died if not for the mcguffin below

Spoiler:
a shrunken head we got form a village that could banish stuff? we used that

in fact our dm had each of us make wisdom checks because we had completely forgotten about the mcguffin.


I'm not sure you guys are using "McGuffin" correctly.

Warning: TV TROPES
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MacGuffin

From my understanding of the item you guys are describing, it's more like a Deus Ex Machina?


1st level spells are Your Friend:
* magic weapon
* protectiom chaos or evil (your choice)
* magic fang
* true strike
* ray of enfeeblement
* magic missile
* mage armor (can be cast on others)
* shield of faith
* shield
* remove fear

Cantrips and Orisons are also Your Friend:
* Light - several of these can overlap to increase the light level back to normal
* Guidance

Bardic Inspire Courage

Cold iron weapons cost 2x normal gp - even with 300 gp, a stand-by cold iron weapon falls under th same "must have" as a wooden club (for dealing with skellies and rust monsters)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Lobolusk wrote:
1 50% check to beat its ghost form

Pretty sure you were doing it wrong then. Incorporeal is not a miss chance, it reduces damage done by 50% if you have a magic weapon.


Turin the Mad wrote:

1st level spells are Your Friend:

* magic weapon
* protectiom chaos or evil (your choice)
* magic fang
* true strike
* ray of enfeeblement
* magic missile
* mage armor (can be cast on others)
* shield of faith
* shield
* remove fear

Only a few of these are particularly helpful if the Magic Jar succeeds, though.


Talynonyx wrote:
Lobolusk wrote:
1 50% check to beat its ghost form
Pretty sure you were doing it wrong then. Incorporeal is not a miss chance, it reduces damage done by 50% if you have a magic weapon.

You are correct sir! I was an unarmed fighter and no amulet of mighty fists for me. technically I was punching nothing just shadow....sigh

Lantern Lodge

TarkXT wrote:
I'm sorry to say but it looks like this encounter simply didn't favor your group. I find it amusing to think my 5th level paladin even without a magic sword could rip said demon a new orifice from which to spew bile from. Best you can do in these situations is run, or find creative ways of dealing with the problem.

Yes, I've made the observation to my DM that a 5th level paladin (with bonded weapon and smite evil) can almost certainly solo this thing if he makes the magic jar save. She, also, found this somewhat amusing.

wraithstrike wrote:
The 300 gp seems to be a problem also. That fight assumes access to magic weapons. Even if the save had been made there would have been issues. The monster does not to a lot of damage. Did the GM just roll really high for the damage rolls. I would expect for someone to no longer be afraid by the time the 2nd character was killed since it is only for 10 rounds.

How is 6d6/round (averaging 21) "not a lot of damage"? Especially for something that basically can't be hurt and has more hp than anyone in the party.

Turin the Mad wrote:

1st level spells are Your Friend:

* magic weapon
* mage armor (can be cast on others)

Cantrips and Orisons are also Your Friend:
* Light - several of these can overlap to increase the light level back to normal

I've trimmed this list down to the spells we actually have access to, and that's only if the sorcerer ever gets an action (which he hasn't yet). I agree a number of those others (especially protection from evil) sure would be handy about now. Light doesn't work, deeper darkness trumps it automatically.

Dekalinder wrote:
I trow 2 at my 4 man 7th level group togheter with a coulple of assorted mosters of cr 5-6. The celestial sorcer tanked them for half an hour while they cleaned the mess. Really, Magic armor + shield + circle of protection, he got like 22 AC against incorporeal. Casting haste on the first round he bumped to 23. SD have +12 to hit, so that's a 50/50 of 2d6, for an average of 7 DPR. Quite a disappointment for a CR 7.

You played this wrong; the demon has 3 attacks at 2d6 each, and he should always get all 3 of them with pounce. Also, why was he wasting time attacking the sorcerer when there were other easier-to-hit things running around?


Paul Zagieboylo wrote:
ou played this wrong; the demon has 3 attacks at 2d6 each, and he should always get all 3 of them with pounce. Also, why was he wasting time attacking the sorcerer when there were other easier-to-hit things running around?

Yea i know thay had 3 attack, but i was pretty unlucky that night with the dice (gotta happen sometimes), i only got to hit with 1 attack each at round more or less. As why the demon focused the sorc, it's becouse they thought of it as the most menacing since he was able to trow empowered force missiles at them, so keeping him busy defending and healing himself seemed like a good tactic. they planned out this stratz befor the sorcer showed up fully buffed (that was a sort of ambush for them) but it didn't turned out that well (actually the barb still died to the "minions" since both the sorc and the ranger hbad their hands full with the demons). Still was a fun moment when i got to say "the wardrobe on your left tries to attack you" XD


hogarth wrote:
Gwyrdallan wrote:
Yeah, my group did this encounter recently, we barely managed to scrape tpgeather a win. (a paladin & a sorcerer spamming magic missle and getting lucky on SR) the other 4 members of the party couldn't do anything, especoally the rogue who was possessed by it. The Paladin was the only thing that kept us alive.
Were you smiting and shooting magic missiles at the rogue? Because that sounds painful!

Actually, we were frantically trying to smite it before it got into the rogue, then non-lethaled the rog down to 1 HP, where it tried to flee, after a few smite attacks it retreated to the bottom of a very deep river, and MM was the onluy thing that could get it.


I did not even notice the 3 attacks, but it should only be getting one attack a round, well maybe 2 if you are provoking.
Of course I was assuming the party was at full health and that may not be the case.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gwyrdallan wrote:
hogarth wrote:
Gwyrdallan wrote:
Yeah, my group did this encounter recently, we barely managed to scrape tpgeather a win. (a paladin & a sorcerer spamming magic missle and getting lucky on SR) the other 4 members of the party couldn't do anything, especoally the rogue who was possessed by it. The Paladin was the only thing that kept us alive.
Were you smiting and shooting magic missiles at the rogue? Because that sounds painful!
Actually, we were frantically trying to smite it before it got into the rogue, then non-lethaled the rog down to 1 HP, where it tried to flee, after a few smite attacks it retreated to the bottom of a very deep river, and MM was the onluy thing that could get it.

Nonlethal damage counts up. It does not take away from actual hit points. Your rogue should have had its normal hit points PLUS its hit points - 1 in accumulated nonlethal damage.


Ravingdork wrote:
Gwyrdallan wrote:
hogarth wrote:
Gwyrdallan wrote:
Yeah, my group did this encounter recently, we barely managed to scrape tpgeather a win. (a paladin & a sorcerer spamming magic missle and getting lucky on SR) the other 4 members of the party couldn't do anything, especoally the rogue who was possessed by it. The Paladin was the only thing that kept us alive.
Were you smiting and shooting magic missiles at the rogue? Because that sounds painful!
Actually, we were frantically trying to smite it before it got into the rogue, then non-lethaled the rog down to 1 HP, where it tried to flee, after a few smite attacks it retreated to the bottom of a very deep river, and MM was the onluy thing that could get it.
Nonlethal damage counts up. It does not take away from actual hit points. Your rogue should have had its normal hit points PLUS its hit points - 1 in accumulated nonlethal damage.

Normally you would be correct, however our group uses Vitality and Wounds from UC. When I said 1 hp I meant 1 vitality.


I have been looking everywhere but cant find an explaination on exactly what shadow evocation does. I assume it allows the demon to mimic an evo spell, but how much damage does it inflict with lets say a shadow evocation lighting bolt.


Shadow Evocation, The Spell

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

I'm currently running a group of 6 4th level characters, and a shadow demon is currently on the random encounter list for the area they're in. I looked up its stats after seeing this thread, and... yeah. There's no way they would be able to defeat that thing. MAYBE if they were 5th level.

It seems that this thing is really strong for a CR 7, unless you have a paladin in the group (we don't).

I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but GMs should be aware of this horrific beastie.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
seto83 wrote:
I have been looking everywhere but cant find an explaination on exactly what shadow evocation does. I assume it allows the demon to mimic an evo spell, but how much damage does it inflict with lets say a shadow evocation lighting bolt.

It works just like a normal lightning bolt, except they throw on an additional saving throw for reduced effect.

Let's say you get struck by a 10d6 lightning bolt produced by a shadow evocation spell. First, you make a will save to disbelieve. If you fail, you take full (10d6) damage, or half that if you make your Reflex save. If you pass, you only take 1/5 damage (2d6*), or half that if you make your Reflex save.

Essentially, a spellcaster relying on shadow evocation and shadow conjuration type spells are giving up raw power and ability in exchange for versatility (since the one spell can duplicate numerous others).

* Rather than reducing the damage dice, I would roll out all 10d6, then divide by 5. You end up with a more accurate result.

Lantern Lodge

wraithstrike wrote:

I did not even notice the 3 attacks, but it should only be getting one attack a round, well maybe 2 if you are provoking.

Of course I was assuming the party was at full health and that may not be the case.

Why only one attack? The demon has pounce, it can use all 3 after a charge every round.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Paul: How does anyone charge EVERY round without ride-by attack and a mount?

You charge, stop, attack, turn ends, target does whatever, than in the next round you are too close to charge.

Unless your target is continually fleeing from you, I don't see how thics can be done.


Its powerful for a CR 7 no doubt and on the upper end of that power scale, but I don't think its game breaking.


RD he is saying a full attack is possible every round, and with pounce he has a point. If you stand still he gets a full round attack. If you move away the demon uses pounce.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:

Paul: How does anyone charge EVERY round without ride-by attack and a mount?

You charge, stop, attack, turn ends, target does whatever, than in the next round you are too close to charge.

Unless your target is continually fleeing from you, I don't see how thics can be done.

Shadow demons got fear. Fly up to someone, make him afraid, he runs, take the AoO. Charge after him and pounce. He runs. Take the AoO. Repeat till amusement ceases or victim dies.

Also, they can charge someone else (and eat the target's AoO). Just because they're in melee with one person doesn't mean they have to stay in melee with that one person.

This is one of the monsters that's very difficult to take out if you don't have some magic weapons and fear-removing effects in the group. Both of them are available at all levels (since you can prepare magic weapon as a first-level spell, just about any caster can have a scroll or two of it handy. (I get the feeling that the designers sort of expected fear-type effects to be more used than I've usually seen.)

Going toe-to-toe with a shadow demon doesn't work unless you're a paladin or rather higher level. You have to take away its advantages before it kills you... and that requires some thought and preparation. Players that don't think out contingencies and prepare for them ahead of time will get nuked. And, yeah, it's very tough for a CR7.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This fellow pretty much TPK'd our party also even with the Macguffin since the person holding it was feared. In order to allow the game to continue the DM allowed fear saves each round to shake the effects off. I agree its a nasty encounter and not a simple intelligence check resolution since even once you realize what you are dealing with you may still not be able to actually use that information.

Lantern Lodge

tonyz wrote:
This is one of the monsters that's very difficult to take out if you don't have some magic weapons and fear-removing effects in the group. Both of them are available at all levels (since you can prepare magic weapon as a first-level spell, just about any caster can have a scroll or two of it handy. (I get the feeling that the designers sort of expected fear-type effects to be more used than I've usually seen.)

We prepared for lots of contingencies. The first book of the AP is full of undead with "DR/weapon type", so we got weapons to cover all 3 types. Because we got sick of that noise. This of course hasn't mattered a bit since the first book.

We've also encountered a number of monsters with attacks like "bite +11 (2d6+12)", so we prepared to be able to survive stuff like that. Which is tougher than it sounds; none of us have AC over 20 so +11 hits us most of the time. The barbarian still ends up in minus hp after pretty much every encounter, but that's just the way life is for a barbarian. Orc ferocity has prevented at least two deaths so far, by allowing him to continue raging long enough to heal him back up to the point that losing the extra rage hp won't kill him instantly.

This is the first time we've encountered any monster with spells or SLAs (except the book 1 boss), damage resistance other than DR/slashing or DR/bludgeoning (well, there was a thing with DR 2/magic earlier, but we didn't really notice at the time), spell resistance, or incorporeality. We didn't have any reason to expect any of this stuff, and we didn't really have enough money to prepare for things we weren't expecting.


What AP has monster in it?
Don't forget to use spoiler tags if you answer.


wraithstrike wrote:

What AP has monster in it?

Don't forget to use spoiler tags if you answer.

Movie plot spoiler:
Serpents skull book 2
Lantern Lodge

wraithstrike wrote:

What AP has monster in it?

Don't forget to use spoiler tags if you answer.

This has been answered before, but...

AP spoiler:
This monster appears about 2/3 of the way through Racing to Ruin, the 2nd book of Serpent's Skull AP (at least, we're 2/3 of the way to our destination on the map). Up until this point the AP has featured almost solely swarms of wussy undead or humanoids, interspersed with the occasional brute-style miniboss (high hp, dangerous standard attacks). A recent previous encounter features 2 angry hippopotamuses (hippopotami? hippopotameese?) and 4 wussy savages with human bane arrows (which they couldn't hit anything with anyway), which was pretty much exactly what we were expecting.

This guy is completely out of left field, with no warning that there's anything like this around: there's a group of dead enemy adventurers that serves as the trigger to spawn him if you investigate (and what self-respecting "hero" wouldn't investigate?), but they look like they've been killed by some big strong creature, not an indestructible outsider. In fact the encounter does actually start with a big strong creature (which the demon is possessing), but a lucky blindness dealt with that part of it instantly. And then we died. I can't imagine how bad the carnage would have been if we'd had to fight the creature first.


How is the shadow demon possessing your party member when it has Magic jar as a 1/day SLA that is has already used today on a big scary monster?

he can't have just been possessing him all day as the effect runs out in 10 hours.
You guys are likely still screwed but hey, at least he can't possess your party.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Magic jar allows you to possess more than one target during its duration.

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