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More Take 10 goodness


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

301 to 350 of 387 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | next > last >>

Bob Jonquet wrote:

First, and perhaps foremost, if you allow passive perception of traps, it completely negates the rogue talent. That would suggest it is not generally permitted.

Second, and this could just be my interpretation, there seems to be two types of perception, passive ("reactive, made in response to observable stimulus) and active ("intentionally searching for stimulus"). Traps seem to be things that are not normally apparent to the eye, thus you have to actively search for them. Although, I suppose you could treat them like a non-moving invisible target and make it something like a DC 50 to passively detect one.

I'd probably make it a skill penalty (-10? -20?) rather than a flat DC, but then I tend to prefer penalties rather just saying no. Trapspotter or the other abilities would then just negate the penalty.

A lot other oddities in the skill rules could probably be handled with penalties.

House rules though. Probably wouldn't fly in PFS.

Shadow Lodge **

Fine fine.. you can take 10 on knowledge checks.

Still not budging on a perception check for spotting the hidden monster. You are both in danger and technically in combat to boot at that point.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

I would guess that a lot of my opinions about traps and perception are colored by the fact that I absolutely hate the fact that anyone, even someone not trained in traps, can find them. Most of the time, you are not under duress, so take20 is in play. Even an average character can find most traps at that point. And since most would agree that perception is the single most important skill in PFS, you will usually have multiple characters at the table that have perceptions as high, if not higher than the trap specialist. And let's face it, knowledge of a trap, neutralizes the threat, or at least significantly reduces it, in most situations. IMO, this really marginalizes the rogue-types.


Bob Jonquet wrote:
nosig wrote:
I have the note in my CRB saying that line was struck out with the errete... we should check a current copy to conferm it one way or another.
Damn you errata *shakes fist*

It's not in the d20pfsrd.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Still not budging on a perception check for spotting the hidden monster. You are both in danger and technically in combat to boot at that point.

You might be a little less concerned is you remember to add in distance penalties for perception and unfavorable conditions (like ambient noise).


Bob Jonquet wrote:
I would guess that a lot of my opinions about traps and perception are colored by the fact that I absolutely hate the fact that anyone, even someone not trained in traps, can find them. Most of the time, you are not under duress, so take20 is in play. Even an average character can find most traps at that point. And since most would agree that perception is the single most important skill in PFS, you will usually have multiple characters at the table that have perceptions as high, if not higher than the trap specialist. And let's face it, knowledge of a trap, neutralizes the threat, or at least significantly reduces it, in most situations. IMO, this really marginalizes the rogue-types.

Remember Take 20 does take time. If the players are taking 20 on everything as they proceed, punish them for it. Even taking 20 on chests, doors or other areas where they expect traps can give the bad guys plenty of time to respond to noise, get ready for attack, etc.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

thejeff wrote:
It's not in the d20pfsrd.

I know a lot of people use it, but the d20pfsrd is not an officially recognized source of legal content for PFS.

Shadow Lodge **

Also, since looking for traps is a move action (3 seconds) technically not limited to any amount of area anymore, I can take 1 minute to take 20 as far as the eye can see and live with the -6 penalty if, in the worst case scenario, the trap is at the end of the corridor.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

thejeff wrote:
Remember Take 20 does take time. If the players are taking 20 on everything as they proceed, punish them for it. Even taking 20 on chests, doors or other areas where they expect traps can give the bad guys plenty of time to respond to noise, get ready for attack, etc.

That's a fine concept, but the vast majority of traps are significantly distance from other encounters that it does not impact them. Unless the GM is being metagamey. As a GM, I don't feel it is my job to punish players for performing activities that are legal for them to do.

Qadira ***

I run my Trapsmith kind of like a Ordinance Disposial Specialist. We're doing the Dungeon crawl thing? I'm out front, taking ten each turn. Doing the slow walk. Scan. walk Scan. Door. stop and clear the door - "two minutes guys". Barbarian takes a wiss, Wizard casts message (again), Cleric ... does whatever depending on diety.

His "Trapspotter" is for the Judge to roll (if I can get him to). I like to T10 on his active perception, and let the Judge handle the passive ones. In fact - sometimes the Judge will roll the passive ones before we start the "crawl". is fine with me. more play time that way.

Trapspotter wouldn't find an Invisible Zombie though. and maybe not Haunts, depends on the judge (the "new hidden trap").

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

@BNW: Regarding your arguments about active versus passive perception, the spot/search merger, and "leftover RAI"... I'd like to point out that I started with Pathfinder - didn't play in 3.5 or 3rd or anything on back. So with no residual notions or established traditions or anything of that nature whatsoever, I read the Pathfinder perception skill and came to my conclusions about needing to search for a trap (except maybe when you first enter the room - I'm on the fence there). So that understanding can't be entirely the result of 3.5 thinking instead of "RAW" - I got there without any influence from 3.5.

Shadow Lodge **

jiggy wrote:
@BNW: Regarding your arguments about active versus passive perception, the spot/search merger, and "leftover RAI"... I'd like to point out that I started with Pathfinder - didn't play in 3.5 or 3rd or anything on back. So with no residual notions or established traditions or anything of that nature whatsoever, I read the Pathfinder perception skill and came to my conclusions about needing to search for a trap (except maybe when you first enter the room - I'm on the fence there).

Well, why when you first enter the room but not when you first enter the hallway, see the door, get your torch light in range of the trap etc?

Quote:


So that understanding can't be entirely the result of 3.5 thinking instead of "RAW" - I got there without any influence from 3.5.

Did you play with players used to 3.5 or did your entire group come in as pathfinder virgins?

Qadira ***

looks like we are out of the realm of T10 and into Perception checks.... so maybe that should be on a new thread?

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

Derailing is what we do best ;-)

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Quote:


So that understanding can't be entirely the result of 3.5 thinking instead of "RAW" - I got there without any influence from 3.5.

Did you play with players used to 3.5 or did your entire group come in as pathfinder virgins?

PFS. So a mixed group. More importantly, I'm a Magic: the Gathering Rules Advisor, and am therefore used to very experienced and competent players being way off base and therefore needing to always know the rules myself instead of relying on what others might tell me. And even more importantly, I read up on Perception before anyone ever told me anything about how it worked.

Shadow Lodge **

Jiggy: and the other part of the post? why when you first enter the room but not when you first enter the hallway, see the door, get your torch light in range of the trap etc? Nothing you're quoting indicates that a trap works differently from a hidden monster. You can actively look for the latter as well, gaining another perception check by spending a move action to try to find it.


Argh. I keep reading this thread. Which one of you *@#&ers is the enchanter responsible for this?!

lol

Actually, it's been educational.

I'm amazed at how many seeming contradictions/confusions I never noticed in first reading through my book. Probably glossed over by the similarities to 3.x rules, didn't read with a critical eye.

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Washington—Eastern Washington aka WalterGM

Alitan wrote:
I'm amazed at how many seeming contradictions/confusions I never noticed in first reading through my book. Probably glossed over by the similarities to 3.x rules, didn't read with a critical eye.

Tell me about it, haha.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

Alitan wrote:
read with a critical eye.

Sometimes a "too-critical" eye can lose sight of the bigger picture or to a common sense reading of RAI and lead to a lot of arguments and posturing. You might be surprised (or not) how many of the rules-lawyery arguments lend themselves to increasingly ridiculous levels of minutia. ;-)


Bob Jonquet wrote:
Alitan wrote:
read with a critical eye.
Sometimes a "too-critical" eye can lose sight of the bigger picture or to a common sense reading of RAI and lead to a lot of arguments and posturing. You might be surprised (or not) how many of the rules-lawyery arguments lend themselves to increasingly ridiculous levels of minutia. ;-)

No. I might HAVE BEEN surprised by it... but I've been reading this thread! :)

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Jiggy: and the other part of the post? why when you first enter the room but not when you first enter the hallway, see the door, get your torch light in range of the trap etc? Nothing you're quoting indicates that a trap works differently from a hidden monster. You can actively look for the latter as well, gaining another perception check by spending a move action to try to find it.

As I mentioned before (I believe) I'm still kind of fuzzy on how I think that's supposed to work.

*

Edit: I changed some stuff about when I give the players their passive check.

My thought on perception and traps is this:

Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus.

Straight from the prd. Thus, the way I do trap finding is passively. The trap is an observable stimulus with a DC to notice. When the players enter the room I give them one passive perception check. This check is used against DC's for invisible enemies, traps, hidden doors, hidden items etc (penalties taken into consideration). This is there one passive perception check. They can choose to take ten or have me roll it for them.

Now if the player states that they make active checks beyond there initial perception, I hold them to the move action and apply all negatives according to distance etc.

Now for traps, the Rogue talent trap spotter gives them a second passive perception check 10 feet from the trap (second chance to not get fried, no distance penalties). I found that having the passive perception check happen when the party enters the room gives the rogue with this talent a little more of an advantage than the rest of the party. I try not to gimp a players powers because of ambiguous rules.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lab_Rat wrote:

My thought on perception and traps is this:

Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus.

Straight from the prd. Thus, the way I do trap finding is passively. The trap is an observable stimulus with a DC to notice. Just before the player steps on the trap they get a perception check against the trap. If they spot it great if not they get hosed. They only get one passive check.

Now if the player states that they make active checks, I hold them to the move action and apply all negatives according to distance etc. They don't need to check each five foot square (hold over from 3.5). One check scans all that they can see.

I have no idea what the rogue trap spotter talent was thinking. I usually allow that to give you a second active perception check for traps.

I agree with you except the change I bolded. I make the trapspotter check an active check, so they get a die roll in addition to the passive perception.

Honestly, with traps its usually not an issue. Taking 10, most people cannot notice traps that are relevant to their level IME. And if they can, they invested in it and should be rewarded for that investment.

Qadira ***

Caineach wrote:
Lab_Rat wrote:

My thought on perception and traps is this:

Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus.

Straight from the prd. Thus, the way I do trap finding is passively. The trap is an observable stimulus with a DC to notice. Just before the player steps on the trap they get a perception check against the trap. If they spot it great if not they get hosed. They only get one passive check.

Now if the player states that they make active checks, I hold them to the move action and apply all negatives according to distance etc. They don't need to check each five foot square (hold over from 3.5). One check scans all that they can see.

I have no idea what the rogue trap spotter talent was thinking. I usually allow that to give you a second activeperception check for traps.

I agree with you only I make the trapspotter check an active check, so they get a die roll in addition to the passive perception.

Honestly, with traps its usually not an issue. Taking 10, most people cannot notice traps that are relevant to their level IME. And if they can, they invested in it and should be rewarded for that investment.

wait... if you "...make the trapspotter check an active check,..." then a PC has to take a move action to use it? Huh? how does this work? Isn't the POINT of trapspotter to make it a passive thing? something that is don't without the Player (or PC) thinking about it?


observable stimulus

This is what the argument is about... honestly that isn't much to go on.
I treat it as a poorly worded statement meaning it works just like the old search and spot did. Traps need an action. Noticing a sneak is free.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think it marginalizes the rogue talent and the challenge of traps in general if everyone get a passive check to notice them. YMMV

*

nosig wrote:


wait... if you "...make the trapspotter check an active check,..." then a PC has to take a move action to use it? Huh? how does this work? Isn't the POINT of trapspotter to make it a passive thing? something that is don't without the Player (or PC) thinking about it?

Agreed. These are my definitions for active vs passive.

Active - Player states that they make a perception check and use a move action to do so. I let the player roll this check.

Passive - I give the player a perception check. This check costs no action. I roll this check.

Either of these can be rolled or take 10 (as long as the players are not in combat). The fact that trap spotter states it is an immediate action means that it isn't costing the player a move action.

Andoran ***** Venture-Lieutenant, California—Fresno aka Sarta

Bob Jonquet wrote:
I think it marginalizes the rogue talent and the challenge of traps in general if everyone get a passive check to notice them. YMMV

Amen. As a player with a character with Trap Spotter and Follow Clues, there is nothing more frustrating than seeing the GM allow everyone a passive check to find traps or allow everyone to use perception to track someone.

I could have dedicated those rogue talents to something else that would have made me more survivable or effective in combat, but instead, I assumed that everyone would be following the same set of rules.

*

Bob Jonquet wrote:
I think it marginalizes the rogue talent and the challenge of traps in general if everyone get a passive check to notice them. YMMV

I agree with you that there is a balance act going on. I edited my above post to be more clear and delineate the two checks. The major difference is that all players get a passive from me when they enter a room. The rogue will get a second check just before stepping on the trap.

I don't want to punish the rogue who took the talent but at the same time I don't want to punish the entire party for one poorly written talent.

***

Lab_Rat wrote:
nosig wrote:


wait... if you "...make the trapspotter check an active check,..." then a PC has to take a move action to use it? Huh? how does this work? Isn't the POINT of trapspotter to make it a passive thing? something that is don't without the Player (or PC) thinking about it?

Agreed. These are my definitions for active vs passive.

Active - Player states that they make a perception check and use a move action to do so. I let the player roll this check.

Passive - I give the player a perception check. This check costs no action. I roll this check.

Either of these can be rolled or take 10 (as long as the players are not in combat). The fact that trap spotter states it is an immediate action means that it isn't costing the player a move action.

So, you don't like the rules as they are actually written and have decided to run the game in a different way. And that would be fine, except when it is in an OP environment where consistency on something so simple as how searching for traps works (noting, of course, that minus the Trap Spotter talent, traps need to be actively detected).

See the following text:
Trap Spotter (Ex)
Benefit:
Whenever a rogue with this talent comes within 10 feet of a trap, she receives an immediate Perception skill check to notice the trap. This check should be made in secret by the GM.

So, that would mean that you are purposely countermanding the intent of the talent by making the check it allows an active one rolled by the player.

If you don't want to learn the rules or play by the rules, please be so kind as to restrain yourself from running OP sessions in my neck of the woods.

Qadira ***

Lab_Rat wrote:
nosig wrote:


wait... if you "...make the trapspotter check an active check,..." then a PC has to take a move action to use it? Huh? how does this work? Isn't the POINT of trapspotter to make it a passive thing? something that is don't without the Player (or PC) thinking about it?

Agreed. These are my definitions for active vs passive.

Active - Player states that they make a perception check and use a move action to do so. I let the player roll this check.

Passive - I give the player a perception check. This check costs no action. I roll this check.

Either of these can be rolled or take 10 (as long as the players are not in combat). The fact that trap spotter states it is an immediate action means that it isn't costing the player a move action.

I cannot see how this will work....

Every time my PC is entering a new square I have to say - "I'm Trapspottering for traps here"??!!

*

I think we are all confused. Let me be clear - Trap spotting as the rogue talent is passive. The player does not have to say a thing. They get within 10 ft and I either role for them or use there take ten. If they beat the DC I tell them there is a trap, if not, I say nothing.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

I'm not a fan that PFRPG removed the defined search area aspect of looking for traps. If you combine it with the though that anyone can passively notice them without any effort at all, it really seems wrong to me. So even my fighter with absolutely no experience with traps could notice one on the other side of room just by peering in. I suppose he would fail more often than succeed if you apply applicable penalties (obstructions, distance, etc), but still, seems to easy to avoid them. YMMV.


Passive: you are walking down the hallway at normal speed, looking ahead as you go, you might see that wire stretched from wall to wall a few inches above the ground. With trap spotter, you are much more aware in general of your surrounding and that wire is much more likely to catch your eye before you trip it.

Active: you are walking down the hallway at a slower speed, looking left and right and up and down as you walk, making you much more likely to spot that wire.

Maybe I am reading the rules wrong or I am thinking of a house rule, but I would rate a passive check with trap spotter as equal to an active check without, except that passive takes less time and effort.

It is like the old rules for secret doors, when an elf can notice one just by walking past it, while a human would have to be actively searching for it.

Qadira ***** Venture-Captain, Indiana—Indianapolis aka Red-Assassin

I personally dislike any attempt at T10 on perception checks, I think the argument with the disguise check and a guard taking T-10 is not a good correlation.

J.Jacobs qoute

FACT: Traps are fun, and a classic part of the game and genre.

FACT: Having the PCs roll Perception checks every 5 feet and against every object in the dungeon to look for traps is no fun.

The way to resolve the question of how to spot traps is to find a comfortable place between those two facts.

The Trap Spotter rogue talent is a good way to gain an auto-spot ability for traps in the game. Normally, you can't autospot traps like this. A player has to specifically state that they're looking for traps. That means that the GM has a responsibility to not randomly throw traps at the group. Save the traps for areas that classically have traps (like crypts or thieves' guilds) and don't put them into taverns or owlbear lairs.

More importantly, you should usually give the PCs some way to learn that they're heading into an area that has traps. This shouldn't always be automatic, but if they take a bit of effort to try to learn more about an area, letting them know there's traps involved is nice. In addition, don't be shy about making it sort of obvious when there's a trap in an area if that area isn't a place that the PCs are already expecting traps. Spiked walls, glowing runes, mysterious bloodstains or dead animals, excessive gearworks in the walls, etc. Visual clues that the PCs can use to realize that there may be more to an area than it appears. In this case, the PCs will still need to say "I look for traps" of course, and they'll still need to roll the appropriate Perception DC to see the trap even if the player is 100% convinced there's a trap in the area.

qoute from
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/archives/spottingTrapsHow&amp#59page=1

I also dislike that some people want to T-20 on perception.

Good thing is everyone has a chance, if he says he is looking for traps to find them.

Rogues can get the Trapspotter Talent, now this I would leave to the player to inform the GM, I usually ask any Rogue if he has this talent.

Playing outside of the rules in this way, will surely do a diservice to the group playing. Allowing traps to be overcome easily will hurt the community. Since players are expected to play the same scenario, some playing may die, use consumables, (wand clw charges) etc... Then the next group goes under a different GM and the fighter finds every trap with a T-10 or passive check.

I would allow a player that is guarding someplace to take T-10 on someone who walks by, to see if she is disguised,


If you let just anybody get a passive perception check for traps, why the h@ll did I bother to take trap spotter?

When there is an obvious mechanic to allow a class to do this, it really shortchanges those of us who took it when you spread it around.

Shadow Lodge **

*headdesk*

I've created a monster...again.

Qadira ***

why do you say that Wolf? This is a potential problem for anyone using the skill (Perception) at a table with a Judge different from the ones he normally plays for.

In the interest of reducing YMMV, I think it's a good thing to "hash out" the problems here.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Since it worked when Bob did it for T10/LoreMaster, I went and asked James Jacobs about Perception and Trap Spotter:

James Jacobs wrote:
The trap spotter talent lets a rogue make a perception check to notice ALL traps he comes wihtin range of. Normally, you have to tell the GM that you're looking for traps.

Boom. There you go.

Qadira ***

goodness Jiggy - you are taking all the fun out of it! (lol! thanks by the way.)


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Bob Jonquet wrote:
I think it marginalizes the rogue talent and the challenge of traps in general if everyone get a passive check to notice them. YMMV

Have you looked at the DCs on traps?

Taking 10 would get experienced trapspotters killed on a regular basis. 13+level wont even get you low CR traps, so without trapspotter and perhaps skill focus or a good wisdom you will be SOL. Let them take 10. Usually they will miss the trap.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
nosig wrote:
Caineach wrote:
Lab_Rat wrote:

My thought on perception and traps is this:

Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus.

Straight from the prd. Thus, the way I do trap finding is passively. The trap is an observable stimulus with a DC to notice. Just before the player steps on the trap they get a perception check against the trap. If they spot it great if not they get hosed. They only get one passive check.

Now if the player states that they make active checks, I hold them to the move action and apply all negatives according to distance etc. They don't need to check each five foot square (hold over from 3.5). One check scans all that they can see.

I have no idea what the rogue trap spotter talent was thinking. I usually allow that to give you a second activeperception check for traps.

I agree with you only I make the trapspotter check an active check, so they get a die roll in addition to the passive perception.

Honestly, with traps its usually not an issue. Taking 10, most people cannot notice traps that are relevant to their level IME. And if they can, they invested in it and should be rewarded for that investment.

wait... if you "...make the trapspotter check an active check,..." then a PC has to take a move action to use it? Huh? how does this work? Isn't the POINT of trapspotter to make it a passive thing? something that is don't without the Player (or PC) thinking about it?

To clarify, what I meant is that I give them a free active check. Active checks for perception are usually rolled. So they get to take 10 and get a roll.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Caineach wrote:
Taking 10 would get experienced trapspotters killed on a regular basis. 13+level wont even get you low CR traps, so without trapspotter and perhaps skill focus or a good wisdom you will be SOL. Let them take 10. Usually they will miss the trap.

Really? Not sure how your players build their characters, but I routinely see characters that have huge modifiers to perception. I attend a lot of conventions, as many outside my region (more actually) than within, so I have pretty solid data to draw from.

It's no secret that perception is the "granddaddy" of skills. For most it is the single most important skill. So it stands to reason that many players will drop a lot into it. There is usually at least one character at the table, often more, that can auto-find tier appropriate traps with a take10.

And with the removal of the defined search area for perceiving traps, allowing a passive, indifferent, observation to notice a trap certainly marginalizes the trap spotter talent and largely neutralizes an entire encounter mechanic.

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Washington—Eastern Washington aka WalterGM

Bob Jonquet wrote:
It's no secret that perception is the "granddaddy" of skills. For most it is the single most important skill.

Fer ye land-lubbers, aye, this tis' the case. But on the open sea, through Besmara's good moods n' bad, a lads skill with the sails be all ye depend on!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Bob Jonquet wrote:
Caineach wrote:
Taking 10 would get experienced trapspotters killed on a regular basis. 13+level wont even get you low CR traps, so without trapspotter and perhaps skill focus or a good wisdom you will be SOL. Let them take 10. Usually they will miss the trap.

Really? Not sure how your players build their characters, but I routinely see characters that have huge modifiers to perception. I attend a lot of conventions, as many outside my region (more actually) than within, so I have pretty solid data to draw from.

It's no secret that perception is the "granddaddy" of skills. For most it is the single most important skill. So it stands to reason that many players will drop a lot into it. There is usually at least one character at the table, often more, that can auto-find tier appropriate traps with a take10.

And with the removal of the defined search area for perceiving traps, allowing a passive, indifferent, observation to notice a trap certainly marginalizes the trap spotter talent and largely neutralizes an entire encounter mechanic.

Yes really. Even with it being one of the prized skills, which I see too.

The DC for your average trap is going to be 20 at levels 1-3. A level 3 character with a +10 is rare. It requires you to have a +4 after keeping it maxed. Classes with Wis as a primary stat tend to not have perception as a class skill. Your Rangers and Inquisitors are only likely to have a +2to3 from wisdom, and only +1 for Rogues. Rogues will have an extra +1 for traps. Without more bonus, from something like a racial bonus or skill focus, it is very difficult for them to hit a +10. With almost everyone I see playing humans, I'm willing to give other races this benefit. And this is for the highest level characters in this range. Also note, the Burning Hands trap with a CR of 2 and a DC of 26, so if they are taking 10 they will still miss some.

From those low levels, DCs will jump up to 25 for 4-7 (with some variation, ranging from a few still 20 to some over 30). A DC25 is not hard for the high end, but its still not trivial. At level 7, you have 10 from level+class meaning you need to make up 5 from misc. sources. Someone might have invested in eyes of the eagle (which should be rewarded). Others may be rogues with +3 from level and a +2 from stat or race (and they should be succeeding in their shtick). But others will find it difficult to make up that whole difference of 5. And that is at level 7, the high end for these encounters, where magical traps may be as high as 31.

And lets be honest here. Basic traps have almost no relevance to the game. Outside of combat, the lone, solitary trap will do absolutely nothing but annoy the players (except alarms). They will soak the damage and move on. Its only traps that are hit durring combat that really have any effect. And those you won't get passive checks on because your in combat.

Taldor ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Card Game Subscriber

I regularly see half-elf druids, rogues, summoners, etc. that have +10~12 at 1st level. I've got a regular synthesist summoner currently who's got a +18 at like 6th level. Skill focus (perception) is not that uncommon at least in the 2 markets I've played in. There's traits to get perception as a class skill, along with a bonus to perception. Masterwork tools for another +2.

Maybe you're play group doesn't go this route, but the ones I've been around regularly do, since perception IS so important to find mcguffins/foes.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sniggevert wrote:

I regularly see half-elf druids, rogues, summoners, etc. that have +10~12 at 1st level. I've got a regular synthesist summoner currently who's got a +18 at like 6th level. Skill focus (perception) is not that uncommon at least in the 2 markets I've played in. There's traits to get perception as a class skill, along with a bonus to perception. Masterwork tools for another +2.

Maybe you're play group doesn't go this route, but the ones I've been around regularly do, since perception IS so important to find mcguffins/foes.

I have yet to see a half elf.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Caineach wrote:
I have yet to see a half elf.

The only trap-oriented rogue I know of in my area is a half-elf. (She's also freaking ridiculous.)

Qadira ***

My trapsmith rogue is an Elf... that is sort of half a half elf right? He does have a ridiculous Perception thou, mostly due to the Judges that DON'T allow Take 10 on Perception. I had to really max it out to compensate for the rolls of "1".

*

Jiggy wrote:

Since it worked when Bob did it for T10/LoreMaster, I went and asked James Jacobs about Perception and Trap Spotter:

James Jacobs wrote:
The trap spotter talent lets a rogue make a perception check to notice ALL traps he comes wihtin range of. Normally, you have to tell the GM that you're looking for traps.
Boom. There you go.

You sure know how to end a derailed thread. Nice to hear an answer regarding that. I always felt that the core rulebook was a little ambiguous as to how perception worked with traps. Thanks.

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