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Ninja Two-Weapon Fighting Str build with katana


Advice


Hello again!

The following build is the result of all the advice, tips and suggestion from my previous topic "Creating a brand-new Rogue with the Core Rulebook / APB / UC"

Need more feedback ;)

Human +1 Feat and 1 skill rank/lvl, +2 to a stat (Str)
+1 skill rank from Favored Class

Str 18
Dex 17
Con 13
Int 11
Wis 13
Cha 15

Two-Weapon Fighting with Katana and Spiked Gauntlet. Shuriken and Daggers for ranged attack.

The idea is to lay low and flank whenever it's possible.

Current list of feats and tricks/talents (work in progress):

01 - Two-Weapon Fighting, Double Slice
02 - (Vanishing Trick)
03 - Power Attack
04 - (Offensive Defense)
05 - Extra Ki
06 - (Forgotten Trick)
07 - Combat Reflexes/Iron Will/Toughness/Weapon Focus
08 - (Pressure Points/Flurry of Stars/Slow Reactions)
09 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10 - (Invisible Blade)
11 - Combat Reflexes/Iron Will/Toughness/Weapon Focus
12 - (Opportunist Rogue Talent)
13 - Improved Critical
14 - (Evasion)
15 - Two-Weapon Rend
16 - (Improved Evasion Rogue Trick)
17 - Critical Focus
18 -
19 -
20 -

~Combat Expertise
~Dodge

I have 10 skill ranks for each level. I still want more. Am I obsessed? Should I try to get more?

Thinking about the Scout archetype. Just not sure if I want to ditch Uncanny Dodge and the improved version.

Party will most likely look like this:

Monk
Eldritch Knight (?)
Witch
Samurai (ronin)
Ranger or Alchemist

On a side note, I'm wrapping up my background and RP stuff. I might post it.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Have thought of two Wakizashis? Much better synergy.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

This would also be more in line with flavor, as the Ninjatō, the traditional ninja sword, was shorter, and straighter, than the katana.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Have thought of two Wakizashis? Much better synergy.

The double same weapon thing is so vanilla though. It's what every TWF build does.

I really like the badass kill-em-all katana in the main hand and the spiked gauntlet in the off-hand. Makes him unique.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

You know you can't actually two-weapon fight while wielding the katana in two hands. Not without something like armor spikes, blade boots, unarmed strikes or a barbazu beard.


Or flurry. But then you cannot get the improved version.

2 weapons the same is because of weapon focus.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I also agree that the spiked gauntlet doesn't feel very ninja. Splash a feat and get the fighting fan for your offhand (also synergizes well should you use feint elements in combat). Way cooler. And like blackbloodtroll said, you cannot use the gauntlets in offhand and still expect the katana to be wielded in both hands (in case that was part of your build plan).

You have pretty ridiculous good stats and are heavily optimized to kick ass and high DPR in combat. I think it's a bit too much of a good thing already, there's no need to optimize further - and there's plenty of room to downplay the character to improve his performance for things other than hitting hard and sneakily.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
LoreKeeper wrote:

I also agree that the spiked gauntlet doesn't feel very ninja.

Well, the SRD does have the tekko-kagi, but a spiked gauntlet might fit the Tekagi-shuko better.

Andoran

With a 37 point buy you don't really have to do much optimizing at all to make anything effective. That out of the way. . .

Drop wis by 1, raise int by 1. Use favored class bonus to raise hit points. Drop charisma to 14 and raise con to 14.

Also, you're stacking a lot of penalties on the attack, power attack, twf, medium bab. . . Consider a 1 level dip into barbarian and extra rage to grant you some umph in battles where you have a difficult time connecting.

Silver Crusade

Mezheven wrote:

01 - Two-Weapon Fighting, Double Slice

02 - (Vanishing Trick)
03 - Power Attack
04 - (Offensive Defense)
05 - Extra Ki
06 - (Forgotten Trick)
07 - Combat Reflexes/Iron Will/Toughness/Weapon Focus
08 - (Pressure Points/Flurry of Stars/Slow Reactions)
09 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10 - (Invisible Blade)
11 - Combat Reflexes/Iron Will/Toughness/Weapon Focus
12 - (Opportunist Rogue Talent)
13 - Improved Critical
14 - (Evasion)
15 - Two-Weapon Rend
16 - (Improved Evasion Rogue Trick)
17 - Critical Focus

You might want to limit what your taking. Power Attack is not something I recommend for rogues. As your to hit bonus is whats lacking for most rogues. The Katina and spiked gauntlet thing sounds good but you can not two hand the katana and use the spiked gauntlet at the same time. You could take the ninja trick unarmed combat training. And use the katana and unarmed strike. Going with two of the same weapons is better in that you can take one feet to affect both weapons.

Duel welding Katina and unarmed strike.(duel Wakizashi)
1- Two Weapon Fighting, Double Slice
2- (Vanishing Trick)
3- Replacing power attack with Extra Ki is a better option for you at this level.
4- (Unarmed Combat Training) (Weapon Focus: Wakizashi)
5- Combat Reflexes
6- (Forgotten Trick)
7- Step Up
8- (Rogue Talent : Surprise Attack)
9- Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10- (Evasion)
11- Improved Critical (15+ on threat is much better to have then any thing else you could get.)
12- (Unarmed Combat Mastery)(Invisible Blade)
13- Two Weapon Rend
14- (Invisible Blade)

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think you all should stop trying to give him a light weapon for that strength score! :P

The advantage of a build with a katana and spiked gauntlet is that when he is unable to TWF he still has a big heavy one-handed weapon which he wields in both hands. Power Attack and that strength score coming off a katana will be deadly whether he can TWF or not.

I do recommend Power Attack, but then again I always recommend Power Attack as it's nearly always an increase in damage. Extra Ki is another vital feat, so take one at 3 and one at 5.

Silver Crusade

With unarmed strike he can two handed the katana. And still two weapon fight with is off hand being a kick or elbow.

I'm with you on power attack being a damage increase nearly always. With a rogue is one of the few times. This is not normal the case. They have no way to ingress there to hit bonus. Unlike all the other 3/4 BAB classes. Bards, Inquisitor, Magus, Druid, Cleric, Oracle, Summoner, all have ability's and/or spells that ingress there to hit bonus and damage. The rogue/ninja have bonus damage that is situational with out any ingress in to hit bonus.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's a much better idea to not spend the feat on Improved Unarmed Strike and make use of the spiked gauntlet in my opinion.

Power Attack is STILL a damage increase despite not having access to bardic performance etc., and the amount of use he gets out of it is dependant on the buffs being thrown around. Saying that it's worthless because he can't self buff is ludicrous and is looking at the class as though he's going to solo through the game.


I think the value of Power Attack here is going to depend heavily on whether he goes Scout, and concentrates more on skirmishing, or goes for full attacks. If he goes Scout, moving in and out of combat and taking single big swings, then Power Attack is great. In this case, he'd probably want to switch out the two weapon fighting stuff for dodge, mobility, and other options that improve his primary tactic.

If he is going to concentrate on two weapon fighting, I totally agree with calagnar that it isn't worth it. I'd drop Power Attack for some of the optional choices like Iron Will, or maybe Quick Draw (so you can throw shurikens from both hands to start a fight, then draw your weapons and get attacking).

For the weapon, has Kusarigama been considered? As a double weapon, it can easily switch from two handed attacks to two weapon and can be held in one hand when necessary. It also gets reach (which is nice for fighting those bigger, late game enemies) and trip (might as well give it a shot on a low level charging humanoid). It isn't actually going to be a big improvement, but I would really like to see a character that can use one effectively. And this super high strength, two weapon fighting Ninja is pretty much my only hope.

EDIT: On Power Attack, it is basically a -5% damage for 1 or 2 damage exchange. Really roughly, you are looking at it becoming a hindrance after attacks deal 30 or so damage a hit (20 off-hand, 40 main hand). Make of that what you will.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Quick Draw isn't necessary to use shurikens because they're used like ammunition. It's always a free action to draw a shuriken.

It's possible I should redo the math on Power Attack, or if someone has calculations at hand or a thread I would be happy to read it.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Pawns Subscriber

If you want a katana and TWF consider the katana double walking stick.
Or if you really want TWF and search a second weapon, why not play a Kitsune? They get a byte attack with 1d4, but you can spend a feat and make it 1d6. Also the racial feat vulpine pounce gets you pounce.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There's a feat to improve a natural attack from 1d4 to 1d6, and people actually take it?

Also, what's wrong with the spiked gauntlet?


Mergy wrote:
Quick Draw isn't necessary to use shurikens because they're used like ammunition. It's always a free action to draw a shuriken.

It isn't for the shurikens themselves. It is so you can get your weapons out afterwards. Nothing sucks more than having a the chance for a full sneak attack, and having to spend a move action drawing weapons.

Hayato Ken wrote:
Or if you really want TWF and search a second weapon, why not play a Kitsune? They get a byte attack with 1d4, but you can spend a feat and make it 1d6. Also the racial feat vulpine pounce gets you pounce.

I would never recommend burning a feat to add +1 damage on one attack. Also, natural attacks aren't really TWF. It is just a secondary natural weapon. Although it can be combined with two weapon fighting, which is actually quite good for a sneak attacker. No penalty for trying the bite too, after all.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Pawns Subscriber

Nothing wrong with it.
I´m not sure though, even the ninja is proficient with a katana, if he can wield it in one hand without EWP katana.
Also, wielding it in two hands, then taking a second attack with the off-hand seems kind of weird. You can always say you then let go of the weapon, but its weird.
Technically should be fine though.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

He's wielding it in one hand with the proficiency because that's what the proficiency does. When two-weapon fighting he one-hands the katana and attacks with the spiked gauntlet in his off hand. When not two-weapon fighting he two-hands the katana for more damage, because why not?

Mort the Cleverly Named wrote:
Mergy wrote:
Quick Draw isn't necessary to use shurikens because they're used like ammunition. It's always a free action to draw a shuriken.
It isn't for the shurikens themselves. It is so you can get your weapons out afterwards. Nothing sucks more than having a the chance for a full sneak attack, and having to spend a move action drawing weapons.

Yes, it's necessary if he wants to Two-Weapon Fight with shurikens. It seems like a waste of a precious feat, however, to do something that can be replicated with a glove of storing.


Hayato Ken wrote:

Nothing wrong with it.

I´m not sure though, even the ninja is proficient with a katana, if he can wield it in one hand without EWP katana.
Also, wielding it in two hands, then taking a second attack with the off-hand seems kind of weird. You can always say you then let go of the weapon, but its weird.
Technically should be fine though.

Ninjas are proficient with katanas as well as wakisashis.


I see my character as a Rogue with special training, not as a full-fledged Ninja. That's too cheesy. See the Katana as an exotic weapon, like a magical sword.

Like Mergy said, the idea is the use the Katana two handed for single attack, and with a Spiked Gauntlet for TWF. The Gauntlet is very usefull since I don't have to ready it, like a sword or dagger and it's stylish as well!

Yeah, I could optimize a bit more by using 2x the same weapon with Weapon Focus. The way I see it, this build is versatile compared to a one trick monkey. True, I won't be the best all the time, but I'll do something most of the time.

I have to admit I'm a bit concerned about Power Attack, since I don't have much BAB. Maybe I could drop TWF and get more 1 handed stuff. Or TWF without Power Attack.

For Scout Archetype, it's really a matter of Uncanny Dodge usefulness as an ability.

Lantern Lodge

These are suggestions for optimizing your character mechanically. Don't worry about them if you're more concerned on the image of your character. To be honest though a 37 point stat buy is pretty ridiculous and you should probably suggest going for much less as no matter what your characters are going to be overpowered. Because you have such a high stat buy is the only reason this character is viable mechanically.

If you're looking for the best build mechanically then drop your whole two-weapon fighting scheme and simply focus on two-handed wielding your katana. DPR wise you will do more than dual-wielding and it will also be less feat intensive.

If Dual-Wielding you should stick with two of the same weapon though and take a four level dip into fighter(weapon master). It will help you to meet feat requirements early and give you access to heavier armors if you don't care about using acrobatics. You will lose 2d6 sneak attack but will actually have higher DPR.

Scout archtype is also useful. Yes you will lose Uncanny Dodge but you should be the one reacting first with reactionary trait and your high dex. You should also be the one flanking not getting flanked. Scout allows you to move into flank position and still deal effective damage.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Katanas are not magical by default. No matter what anime-fans tell you. Wakizashi is still more in line with traditional ninja flavor.

Silver Crusade

With out affecting your to hit bonus. Unarmed strik incress your damage over a spiked gauntlet. It allows you to two hand the katana all the time even when your two weapon fighting. Then later on with the Unarmed Combat Mastery it realy pulls out in frot on the damage over the spiked gauntlet.

Katana and Gauntlet, Spiked
Two Handed Katana 1D8 18-20/X2 +1 1/2 Str Mod to damage
Two Weapon Fighting
Katana 1D8 18-20/x2 + Str Mod to damage
Gauntlet, spiked 1D4 20/X2 + Str Mod to damage

Katana and Unarmed Strike (Using two ninja talents)
Two Handed Katana 1D8 18-20/X2 + 1 1/2 Str Mod to damage
Unarmed Strike 1D3 20/X2 + Str Mod to damage
Level 12 after taking Unarmed Combat Mastery
Unarmed Strike 1D10 20/X2 + Str Mod to damage
Level 16 2D6 Level 20 2D10


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

You could flavor up armor spikes, and do the same thing.


kaisc006 wrote:

These are suggestions for optimizing your character mechanically. Don't worry about them if you're more concerned on the image of your character. To be honest though a 37 point stat buy is pretty ridiculous and you should probably suggest going for much less as no matter what your characters are going to be overpowered. Because you have such a high stat buy is the only reason this character is viable mechanically.

If you're looking for the best build mechanically then drop your whole two-weapon fighting scheme and simply focus on two-handed wielding your katana. DPR wise you will do more than dual-wielding and it will also be less feat intensive.

If Dual-Wielding you should stick with two of the same weapon though and take a four level dip into fighter(weapon master). It will help you to meet feat requirements early and give you access to heavier armors if you don't care about using acrobatics. You will lose 2d6 sneak attack but will actually have higher DPR.

Scout archtype is also useful. Yes you will lose Uncanny Dodge but you should be the one reacting first with reactionary trait and your high dex. You should also be the one flanking not getting flanked. Scout allows you to move into flank position and still deal effective damage.

I'm aware I rolled some high stats. Still, it fits within the limit set by our GM.

I assume TWF is only viable with high stats or with a Fighter, who has a lot of feats. I'm really wondering what I should do with a Ninja.

Let's say I keep those stats but drop WTF, what can I do instead?

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Pawns Subscriber

There are many many options. It all depends on what you want.
Personally i like moonlight stalker, giving +2 hit/damage if you have concealment. It requires blind-fight and combat expertise though.
Later you can take moonlight stalker feint (feint as swift action if concealment) and moonlight stalker master (+10% misschance from concealment). Get improved greater feint and become a real nemesis later.
Oh and something providing concealment for sure like lesser cloak of displacement. Didn´t i post this before?

What i really recommend is getting darkvision somehow, maybe with the goggles. Or shadowstrike feat. Really helps placing sneak attacks.

Also shuriken focus is nice too. Close quarters thrower etc.

I even had a halfling ninja with weapon finesse and halfling slingstaff, rocked quite well.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Changelings make good ninjas. They come with their own extra sneak attack attempts.


Mort the Cleverly Named wrote:

I think the value of Power Attack here is going to depend heavily on whether he goes Scout, and concentrates more on skirmishing, or goes for full attacks. If he goes Scout, moving in and out of combat and taking single big swings, then Power Attack is great. In this case, he'd probably want to switch out the two weapon fighting stuff for dodge, mobility, and other options that improve his primary tactic.

If he is going to concentrate on two weapon fighting, I totally agree with calagnar that it isn't worth it. I'd drop Power Attack for some of the optional choices like Iron Will, or maybe Quick Draw (so you can throw shurikens from both hands to start a fight, then draw your weapons and get attacking).

For the weapon, has Kusarigama been considered? As a double weapon, it can easily switch from two handed attacks to two weapon and can be held in one hand when necessary. It also gets reach (which is nice for fighting those bigger, late game enemies) and trip (might as well give it a shot on a low level charging humanoid). It isn't actually going to be a big improvement, but I would really like to see a character that can use one effectively. And this super high strength, two weapon fighting Ninja is pretty much my only hope.

EDIT: On Power Attack, it is basically a -5% damage for 1 or 2 damage exchange. Really roughly, you are looking at it becoming a hindrance after attacks deal 30 or so damage a hit (20 off-hand, 40 main hand). Make of that what you will.

I just read the whole topic again and I noticed I overlooked your post earlier.

You may be right, I'm trying to do too many things at once. Let's forget my insanely high stats. I've been thinking and and I'm afraid the -2 on atk rolls from TWF is going to hurt. With my Ranger, I hit with my main attack, but missed with the 2nd, and it was worse with Rapid Fire and/or Deadly Aim. Knowing the Rogue BAB is slightly lower than a Ranger's, maybe it would a good idea to drop TWF altogether. The other path could be Dodge> Mobility> Spring Attack. Maybe Step Up and Following Step.

What about Power Attack? Is it worth it in the long run? How can I increase my dmg otherwise?

If I sum it up, Scout Archetype is a good thing as well, since it's makes me even more mobile. Is it really useful, knowing I'll wait for a team-mate to attack first for flanking happiness?


Mezheven wrote:
What about Power Attack? Is it worth it in the long run? How can I increase my dmg otherwise?

In non-TWF situations, Power Attack is amazing. If you are attacking two handed with a katana PA will help you until you deal an average of 60 damage per attack. That is to say, "pretty much always."

Quote:
If I sum it up, Scout Archetype is a good thing as well, since it's makes me even more mobile. Is it really useful, knowing I'll wait for a team-mate to attack first for flanking happiness?

If you want your ally to maneuver around and make sure you are flanking, go TWF. If you want to move around the battlefield harassing casters, picking off stragglers, and setting up flanks for others, go Scout. Your personal damage per round isn't going to be great, but your ability to contribute to the overall party damage (and general effectiveness) may actually be greater. You'll also be better able to fight on your own, which is a major weak point of many Rogues.

If you do go this route, I'd recommend against Pressure Points at level 8. It is very good when you are doing a lot of attacks on a single target, which is pretty much the exact opposite of a Scout's tactics. You'll be better off with Flurry of Stars (for a nice opener to combat) or Slow Reactions (use your mobility to make mobility easier for your allies).


Mort the Cleverly Named wrote:
Mezheven wrote:
What about Power Attack? Is it worth it in the long run? How can I increase my dmg otherwise?

In non-TWF situations, Power Attack is amazing. If you are attacking two handed with a katana PA will help you until you deal an average of 60 damage per attack. That is to say, "pretty much always."

Quote:
If I sum it up, Scout Archetype is a good thing as well, since it's makes me even more mobile. Is it really useful, knowing I'll wait for a team-mate to attack first for flanking happiness?

If you want your ally to maneuver around and make sure you are flanking, go TWF. If you want to move around the battlefield harassing casters, picking off stragglers, and setting up flanks for others, go Scout. Your personal damage per round isn't going to be great, but your ability to contribute to the overall party damage (and general effectiveness) may actually be greater. You'll also be better able to fight on your own, which is a major weak point of many Rogues.

If you do go this route, I'd recommend against Pressure Points at level 8. It is very good when you are doing a lot of attacks on a single target, which is pretty much the exact opposite of a Scout's tactics. You'll be better off with Flurry of Stars (for a nice opener to combat) or Slow Reactions (use your mobility to make mobility easier for your allies).

You know, I'm even more confused. Can't decide. Current party should be fine dmg wise. Plus, it's really a question of what I want to do.

I just don't see the advantage of being mobile, with Scout Archetype and related feats. It's hard to fight on my own, AC isn't great, HP isn't huge. Plus, being 15 feet away from an enemy doesn't really protect me, he will move and I'll take it up the arse. Flanking his nice for allies too.

Still, I feel TWF is more of a Fighter/Barbarian thing.

I really suck lol :(

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Pawns Subscriber

Nope thats ok. Its a learning curve in this game and also with more knowledge you see more possibilites and can decide better what to do.

Of course as rogue/ninja you can depend on flanking and this can suck in some parties, but then talk to them.

Bufing your AC some would probably be best then.
Dodge, Osyluth guile and offensive defense are the best feats for that.
Sneak attack dice number and CHA modifier on AC is great, especially for ninjas. Osyluth guile needs fighting defensively though and then works best with some ranks in acrobatics and combat expertise.
Since you are flanking and only need to hit flat footed AC, its easier to hit, don´t forget that too. And if there is someone not wearing a full plate who you don´t hit on high rolls, ask you GM about it. They forget sometimes.

As a ninja with ki pool you can get an extra attack for one ki point.
Opening volley with a shuriken can give you +4 on this attack if the second is a melee attack.


Hayato Ken wrote:

Nope thats ok. Its a learning curve in this game and also with more knowledge you see more possibilites and can decide better what to do.

Of course as rogue/ninja you can depend on flanking and this can suck in some parties, but then talk to them.

Bufing your AC some would probably be best then.
Dodge, Osyluth guile and offensive defense are the best feats for that.
Sneak attack dice number and CHA modifier on AC is great, especially for ninjas. Osyluth guile needs fighting defensively though and then works best with some ranks in acrobatics and combat expertise.
Since you are flanking and only need to hit flat footed AC, its easier to hit, don´t forget that too. And if there is someone not wearing a full plate who you don´t hit on high rolls, ask you GM about it. They forget sometimes.

As a ninja with ki pool you can get an extra attack for one ki point.
Opening volley with a shuriken can give you +4 on this attack if the second is a melee attack.

Can't find anything on "Osyluth Guile", sigh

I'll post a new list of feats/tricks soon, most likely around being mobile and Scout archetype. Just wondering how useful/fun to play it will be.

Lantern Lodge

Mezheven wrote:


Let's say I keep those stats but drop TWF, what can I do instead?

Well if you dropped TWF you would want to switch around the scores. Here's a build focuses on high damage output and survivability:

STR: 20
DEX: 16
CON: 14
INT: 8
WIS: 14
CHA: 12

STR 18 then Human gives +2 STR. The reason Wisdom is 14 is to help vs. spells which down the road will become your biggest threat. If you plan on dipping into fighter, then lower your Dex to 14 and wear an O-Yoroi. You will get enough skill points from ninja and human that 8 INT will not hurt you. Put your favored class bonus into HP.

Feats:
1st Level: Dodge and Toughness
2nd Level: Combat Trick for Power Attack
3rd Level: Extra Ki
5th Level: Weapon Focus or Iron Will
7th Level: Furious Focus or Improved Iron Will
beyond that there's not much more you need.

Ninja Tricks: Don't worry so much about abilities that burn your ki. Vanishing Trick is nice but not absolutely necessary. This build focuses on using it's ki to have extra attacks. Flank an opponent then burn your Ki to deal crazy damage. Also, don't get forgotten ninja trick until nothing else is appealing it is overrated IMHO and this build needs all it's ki for attacks.

All your ability points from leveling should be dropped into Str.

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