GMing my first game.


Beginner Box


Hi,

I mentioned to my friends that I will be trying out Pathfinder Society next week, and they got interested. However, their schedule doesn't allow them to join the Pathfinder Society game. They encouraged me to learn the game and be the GM and to introduce them pathfinder (I have no RPG experience at all). So with this quest in mind I did some research and got the beginner's box.

I have read through both books a couple of times, but there is still a couple of things I don't quite get. I am hoping to learn more once I start playing Society, I know it uses more advance rules than the beginner box but I am expecting to get a better grasp of how everything fits together. Until then, here are my questions:

The spoilers contain plot points for the introductory adventure!!!

Spoilers:

1) the minimaps shows the enemies' locations. Is this where I am supposed to place the tokens? or is it just a reference? My confusion comes because the spider is supposed to be placed in the southwest corner, but in the minimap it is a bit offset. Also, the skeletons before Black Fang are way too close to the cliff but in the text it says to place them on the north side of the room. Same with Black Fang it is asked to be placed on the east side of the room, but I see him more like in the middle of the two rooms or at the west of the last room depending how I look at it.

2)Magic Pillar:
It gives you some history of the pillar, but I am not sure when I am supposed to provide this information to the players, if at all. Also, it isn't clear to me whether the players need to do something to figure out that there is one specific symbol that is repeated. I know they need to do a check to figure out it is water though.

3)Graffiti:
Do players need to specifically ask for a knowledge history skill check to find out the information about what "wyrm" means?, or when they enter the room and I read the description should I ask them to roll a history skill check to see if they know the information?

4) Perception:
How many times can a player do a perception check? For example in the 2nd area of the dungeon, where the straw mats are, could a player do multiple perception checks on the mats to find the key? Or to find traps, lets say on their first roll the exact number needed to figure how the trap is triggered. Could they try again to get a +5 above the DC and get more info about the trap?

Thanks for all your help!


deltas wrote:

Hi,

I mentioned to my friends that I will be trying out Pathfinder Society next week, and they got interested. However, their schedule doesn't allow them to join the Pathfinder Society game. They encouraged me to learn the game and be the GM and to introduce them pathfinder (I have no RPG experience at all). So with this quest in mind I did some research and got the beginner's box.

I have read through both books a couple of times, but there is still a couple of things I don't quite get. I am hoping to learn more once I start playing Society, I know it uses more advance rules than the beginner box but I am expecting to get a better grasp of how everything fits together. Until then, here are my questions:

The spoilers contain plot points for the introductory adventure!!!

** spoiler omitted **...

Hey, deltas. I just made a post asking for advice myself, but I might be able to help you with your questions.

Spoiler:

I think the most important thing is not to get too bogged down on the rules, and do what makes sense.

Quote:
1) the minimaps shows the enemies' locations. Is this where I am supposed to place the tokens? or is it just a reference? My confusion comes because the spider is supposed to be placed in the southwest corner, but in the minimap it is a bit offset. Also, the skeletons before Black Fang are way too close to the cliff but in the text it says to place them on the north side of the room. Same with Black Fang it is asked to be placed on the east side of the room, but I see him more like in the middle of the two rooms or at the west of the last room depending how I look at it.

Personally, what I did was use the markers as a reference and placed the pawns where it made sense. IE - the players should hear the shuffling noise from the skeletons before they see them, so I placed the skeletons farther back.

Quote:

2)Magic Pillar:

It gives you some history of the pillar, but I am not sure when I am supposed to provide this information to the players, if at all. Also, it isn't clear to me whether the players need to do something to figure out that there is one specific symbol that is repeated. I know they need to do a check to figure out it is water though.

As far as revealing the information, that is a good question. Maybe someone else can address that. I would think you could use the additional info if you could find a way to incorporate more storytelling and background info into the adventure.

In regard to the DCs, in that example with the water, (was it an arcana check?) after you get done reading the description, I would say something like, "[Fill in Wizards name], roll a knowledge arcana check" and go from there.

Quote:

3)Graffiti:

Do players need to specifically ask for a knowledge history skill check to find out the information about what "wyrm" means?, or when they enter the room and I read the description should I ask them to roll a history skill check to see if they know the information?

Yes, like point 2, I would ask one or all of the players to roll the appropriate DC check.

Quote:

4) Perception:

How many times can a player do a perception check? For example in the 2nd area of the dungeon, where the straw mats are, could a player do multiple perception checks on the mats to find the key? Or to find traps, lets say on their first roll the exact number needed to figure how the trap is triggered. Could they try again to get a +5 above the DC and get more info about the trap?

I don't know if this is the right way to do it, but my house rule for this is to allow allow them one perception check. I know that the actual BB GM Handbook tells you that players can perform DC's as many times as they like unless the module says otherwise, but to me that doesn't make any sense. Players could just keep trying until they succeed or until I tell them there's a trap in the case of trap searching. This way, my players decide who has the best chance at performing the DC, and it adds value to having that class.

Hope those helped!


as Johnnie said, don't get bogged down in the rules, the most important part is to have fun.

1) I agree with johnnie, use them as a guidelines to what makes sense based on how you want the encounter to play out.

2)I would say it's a knowledge check (possibly arcana) or perception to notice that the symbol is repeated and if they are curious enough to ask for a history check then you can give them the additional information. if, on the other hand, you really want to give them the info just ask everyone to make a history check.

3)I would say a skill check is necessary.

4)I agree with only one DC check, but it's up to you. I usually let everyone roll one check and take the highest score for the party, this way they can also avoid the bad luck that is inherent in rolling dice.


deltas wrote:

Hi,

I mentioned to my friends that I will be trying out Pathfinder Society next week, and they got interested. However, their schedule doesn't allow them to join the Pathfinder Society game. They encouraged me to learn the game and be the GM and to introduce them pathfinder (I have no RPG experience at all). So with this quest in mind I did some research and got the beginner's box.

I have read through both books a couple of times, but there is still a couple of things I don't quite get. I am hoping to learn more once I start playing Society, I know it uses more advance rules than the beginner box but I am expecting to get a better grasp of how everything fits together. Until then, here are my questions:

The spoilers contain plot points for the introductory adventure!!!

** spoiler omitted **...

Response:

1. Sometimes in published material there can be a disconect between the cartographers and the authors. Sometimes what seems perfectly clear at time of editing isn't to you when you read it. The simple answer is put them where you think best serves the encounter. Remember you are the dm, you may do as you wish and you ALWAYS have to be able to react to changing conditions. Dont be afraid to move things up, there is no 'right' location here for the monsters.

2. This is the hardest part of dming. Disemination of information. Sure designing encounters, statting up bad guys, writting backstories is time consuming and often difficult, but the real challenge is giving players information they need while still maintaining that distinction between what they should and shouldn't know. It comes down to a couple things. First, do the players NEED to know this. If they NEED to know something (to advance the story or to accomplish their goal) then there should be no less then three opportunities to learn it. This is called the rule of 3. Often published material will just give the dm the information as background info, and let you decide how or if to give it to your players. Some let the players figure out to roll a knowledge, or to gather info or what have you. Others prompt them, that depends on you. I have found the more players know the more engaged they get.

3. See #2

4. Perception checks do not normally allow re-rolls, unless there is something new to perceive. If they fail the check, they dont get a second opportunity to make the check unless something changes, and then it is only to notice that new thing.


Thanks for the advice!

It really helped, and I also took a loook at JohnnieTheGamer's thread and that was also filled with great advice.

I have my first run this weekend, and I will report back and probably ask questions that came up.

Playing PFS a couple of times as a player already gave me a better understanding how thins are run and about different types of GMs. I will try to use what I have learned so far to run the adventure!

Wish me luck!

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'd like to correct a mis-interpretation: Perception checks can usually be retried, if the players are looking for static things that aren't moving.

PRD wrote:
Try Again: Yes. You can try to sense something you missed the first time, so long as the stimulus is still present.

Of course, being able to try again to notice the goblins sneaking up on you doesn't help, because by the time you've finished trying again, they've jumped on your back and hit you with their dogslicers. So in most situations that the characters care about Perception checks, they only get one shot.

Spoiler:

But for stuff like looking for the key, your players can take 20 if they want to spend the time. It's assumed that competent adventurers who are good at finding stuff will eventually find anything they are physically capable of finding, if they search long enough. The advantage of actually having the skill is that some things are quite hard indeed to find, such that people who aren't very good at finding stuff can't even manage it on a natural 20. Of course, taking 20 takes a while (2 minutes per square); maybe the barbarian will just get fed up, express his doubt over the existence of a key, and smash the chest instead. And it doesn't help with disarming traps, unless the character disarming the trap is really good at it, because if he rolls low the trap goes off anyway. The rule of thumb for taking 20 is: multiply the time spent by 20, then assume the character rolls a 1, then a 20. If something bad happens on a 1, well, something bad happens. At that point he probably stops, and doesn't get his 20.

Sovereign Court

Hey deltas, good luck with the game. Just remember to have fun and you'll do great. Like others said, don't get bogged down by the rules. As they said in Pirates of the Caribbean "... we figured they were more like guidelines."


Hi all,

So we went through Black Fang's Dungeon yesterday afternoon and we had a blast!

Spoiler:

Most of the encounters went very smooth.
The Goblins at the entrance were quickly dispatched with only minor damage taken by the Wizard. In the next room, the rogue quickly figures out that she can pick locks and opens the chest, I kind of hint at the wizard that she can do a detect magic on the unknown potion. From this point on she start casting detect magic on everything. The cleric decides to check the mats and finds the key and they realize it was for the chest.

The fountain was very fun since they couldn't figure out why some of them were getting benefits and other people damage, and the rogue didn't get an effect at all so she thought everyone else was pulling her leg.

They decided to go to the trap room next, and this one was a bit trickier to run. The Cleric got close to the altar and got burned, she didn't move for a while and took a health potion on the same spot so I decided that was probably more than 5 seconds and the trap went off again taking down the Cleric.

The fighter quickly carries her back to safety and runs back to town for more health potions while the wizard and the Rogue take care of the Cleric.

They sleep for a few hours to tackle the trap room again. They start toying with the idea of crawling towards the altar but no one wants to take the risk. The fighter decides to climb through the statue, which I let him do with a DC 15. Picks up the gem and climbs back through the statue.

The spider encounter was uneventful and was passed by quickly.

When they encountered the pillar, they did all their checks and found out about the water symbol. they started throwing water at it and doing all sorts of crazy stuff. They finally decided to try to press all the symbols, and the wizard gained the power to swim!

Getting to the island caused the fighter and rogue to drown most of the time. So the wizard and the cleric took care of ReefClaw!

They picked up the treasure but they didn't find out that the sword was magical.

They tried to use stealth while entering the throne room, however the Cleric rolled so poorly that made all the goblins notice them. They decided to talk to the goblins instead of fighting (thanks to the cleric) and gave them the dragon toy. They were close to starting a fight to get whatever was in the chest, but they decided not to and moved forward.

The cliff gave them a hard time, but finally the fighter made it through. He distrusted the rope at the top, and used his own to bring everyone up. They were a bit confused why that made a difference since I still asked them to roll to climb with a rope, I explained about the difficulty with a rope and without it.

One of the skeletons was killed in 1 shot by the wizard, and they were confused when the other 2 took way more damage but weren't going down. I kept mentioning how their hits didn't seem to be doing the full amount of damage they expected. I explained to them after the adventure.

Surprisingly no one took damage from the skeletons and made it through.
They decided to sleep on their bed rolls before continuing.

The fight with Black Fang was a bit anticlimatic (at least from my point of view) I think to the players it felt quite right. They did extreamly well against the dragon hitting almost every time, and the fighter used the dragon bane sword so they were killing Black Fang quite fast. Both the fighter and the cleric dodged the acid attack and took half damage.

The next round they did great again and took Black Fang below 25 before its turn came up. So I had to make a choice since Black Fang had only stayed for a turn, I could either run or stay, I figured I could kill someone in the next attack (one of them the fighter) so Black Fang wouldn't take enough damage and still survive to fly away! My plan back fired, I didn't hit anyone. The Cleric scores a hit and the Fighter crits bringing Black Fang down below 0 HP. I "fudged" the numbers and kept Black Fang alive, and the wizard hit as well so Black Fang is now ultra dead!. I made Black Fang flee on its 3rd round, even though he was dead. The players decided to rest before trying to attack the goblins they left alive in the throne room. It was late and I could tell most people were tired and wanted to finish. It was mostly one person interested in taking them down. I discouraged it by saying the Cleric will lose the grace from her deity since her alignment is good and the goblins had shown no sign of aggression and were in friendly terms with the PCs. That made them think twice and decided to call it a day.

They went back to town, got their reward, their experience and that was the end!

I felt a bit bad about cheating the players of their kill, but I was already working on a follow up story with Black Fang so I needed him alive :(. I wasn't intending in killing the players either, I was going to make Black Fang fly away if he killed 2 people. Is this practice frowned upon? :(.

We had a lot of fun, lots of laughs. Everyone was in the right mood, so whenever a bad rolled came across most people acted a really bad version of the skill (e.g coughing while trying to sneak). Very funny comments happened, and I was surprised how quickly they picked up the flow of things. The key was that I didn't overwhelm them with rules like I do when we play boardgames, I just told them to let me know what they wanted to do and I will tell them if they need to roll and what skill they should use. This off course put a lot of pressure on me, and by the end of the night I was really tired. Everyone liked it and wants to try it again, however, one of the players felt it was too long. Any ideas on how to make it shorter?. We are already scheduled to meet again in one month. I will probably run them through the Beginner Bash! adventures and the mine, while I continue to work on my new adventure!

They didn't show interest in creating their own character (except for the Cleric, she didn't like that she was mostly healing) so we will be playing the pre-gens again, I am thinking of allowing them to change the name and their sex and giving the Wizard and the Cleric all their level 0 spells like the Handbook says.

One question regarding that, why does the wizard get all 4 cantrips without preparation? On the core rule book you are only allowed 3. Am I missing something?

I was thinking of following the core rulebook and ask the wizard to choose 3 out of the 4 spells per day, that way when we jump to the core rule books they won't feel like they got less spells per day.

I want to thank Paizo for this great product and allowing my friends and I to have a great night and hopefully more to come. Also thanks to all the tips that I was given by the community, and I would also like to thank all the GM's out there that run the games for us because i just never realized how much work it was to prepare and to run a session!


I really enjoyed reading your excellent account!

As for fudging the HP of the dragon so it could fight another day, you should kind of follow your gut about what is fun for your players. If you had played with these folks for years and years and had always pulled this out of the hat, then they might catch on and not be happy. So long as it's not SO in their face that they're meta-thinking I think it's completely fine. What they don't know won't hurt em! :)


Fudging numbers is an interesting situation. On the one hand, players can feel cheated, on the other it allows the GM to remain the final authority on the way things play out.

I do it when I don't want to kill my players (reducing damage dealt or making hits into misses), when I want a fight to be over sooner (reducing monster HP, saves, or AC), or when it is necessary for the story (increasing HP so a monster can escape to fight another day). The danger is that the players may feel that their actions are pointless if you ignore the results.

Alternatively, and some may say preferably, build in contingencies. So they 'kill' the dragon... well, it wasn't really dead. Or maybe the dragon they meet later is this dragon's parent/brother/lover and it is bigger and meaner. Add in means for magical escape or rescue; a use-once magical item of dimension door, for example.

Another fun thing is to turn the fight cinematic. So as the fighter lands his "should have been" killing blow, switch from combat to scene description. "Your sword sweeps down and bites deep into the dragon's side, it roars in pain and frustration. It swipes you off your feet with a great lash of its tail, forces the cleric back with a mighty gust of air from its wings, and snarls 'We shall meet again and I shall feast on your bones!'. It then launches itself into the air and quickly flies into the distance. The wizard manages to get a spell off before it is out of range, but it fails to stop the dread beast."

Sure, it disregards the combat order and doesn't let probability decide action outcome, but it does seem awesome, provides closure, and means the players don't feel cheated by giving it a "this is how the fight was to end" feel.

Just keep in mind that 0 HP doesn't mean dead, necessarily... it can also mean the creature or NPC is no longer combat capable.


deltas wrote:
I felt a bit bad about cheating the players of their kill, but I was already working on a follow up story with Black Fang so I needed him alive :(. I wasn't intending in killing the players either, I was going to make Black Fang fly away if he killed 2 people. Is this practice frowned upon? :(.

I'm in agreement with the others. As the GM, your ultimate goal is to entertain everyone (including yourself). I often think of GMs as movie directors. If a scene isn't working right, they will go off-script and do what needs to be done to make it entertaining. So, the game rules and the published adventure are secondary to that consideration. As GMs gain experience in their craft, they'll have a better idea when to follow the script and when to jump off it. Likewise, as GMs get to know their players, they'll better recognize what works for their particular players, leading to more on-the-fly changes. Some of my best sessions were GMed by improvising.

So, in short, don't feel bad at all. It sounds like you did a great job ;o)


I also think the fudging was fine. Although be aware that there is sometimes a temptation to begin overusing it - potentially evolving into a game where the players' actions having very little consequence as it just depends on when you decide they should win or lose. I think you did well not to fudge the skeletons' rolls to make the encounter tougher, for example - sometimes you see new DMs get attached to their monsters and try to "win".

Your use of fudging was in the finale, something which should seem memorable and challenging. It was also about further plots, rather than just to 'balance luck' or something which I personally think shows the makings of a fine DM. In my view, it's all about the story and that seemed to be your focus too.

All in all, it sounds like your first session was nicely done. I also agree with you about placing the rules burden on yourself (I'm also the boardgame rules-learner in our group). It's harder work, but ultimately means those who want to learn the rules can do so at their leisure without people who are less enthused having their eyes glaze over.


Thanks for the encouraging words and for all the advice! The pathfinder community has been extremely helpful!


I ran the beginner box campaign this last weekend for a group of three friends. They breezed through most of the dungeon, but at the end they were bruised and battered, tired. I figured I would just follow the plan, and allow them to get the dragon to half and let it fly away. However, when the combat started, they were so excited and into it! The roleplaying really got intense, and the rolls were even more so. After five or six gut-wrenching rounds, the PC's ended up killing the dragon! If this was a mistake, so be it! We had tons of fun.


brevous wrote:
We had tons of fun.

I see no mistakes here. :)


Agreed. Black Fang has a big brother, after all ;o) (or a sister, father, uncle, god-mother...)

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