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Ninja Guide


Advice

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Blue Star wrote:
I always thought Terry was more fighter than ninja, his suit made up for it though.

:)


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
darth_borehd wrote:
lots of stuff

1) using Purple or not is really just a stylistic choice of mine. I have considered this in the, past but I don't think there needs to be additional clarification by adding a 5th color.

2) Leadership is uncolored because it is often not allowed in many games. For instance, in the games I DM and play in, Leadership is outright banned. In other games, you can select it if as long as there aren't a bunch of other "pets/cohorts" so that it doesn't slow down combat even more. In still others, you can select Leadership BUT the DM only allows you to control the feat of the cohort and not the build or the cohort is more of an NPC or a dozen other variables in controlling the vagueries of the Leadership mechanics.
Since the usefulness of this feat varies so much from game to game it can't really be judged from a optimization standpoint. That being said, Leadership is super broken and fantastic for powergaming.

3) With the exception of the situation that you laid out, I don't think that Seize the Moment is that great. First Critical threats, on a best case scenario, is only 25% of the time (keen wakizashi), and you still have to confirm. That rate will be even lower b.c. you have to roll well twice not one.
You also have to get another team member to take the feat. Chances are your fighter isn't going to have Combat Reflexes. If you have a flanking buddy in your team, using a feat to make the flanking your are going to do anyway better is an easier pull than convincing your Fighter to take two feats for an extra attack he MIGHT get every 4 rounds or so.
ALSO, you don't get access to this feat until at least level 12 really not till 13 since you should be taking an Advanced Trick at 12. Also the aforementioned scenario can't be pulled off until you are level 14 b/c your cohort can't be any higher level than Your level -2.

4) I didn't say you couldn't run a Ninja/Paladin, I'm just saying that from an RP standpoint it can be complicated.

5) Hidden Weapon is Blue when compared to other selections for Ninja Tricks, Quick Draw is green when compared to feat selection choices. They are great together, but they are evaluated under different standards b/c they fall under different categories.

6) Swift as Shadows is nice, why not take it AND Fast Stealth since the -10 penalty for sniping is worth the +2 to acrobatics anyways.

7) A wand of Spider Climb is cheaper still, but you don't get either at level 2, or likely level 5. And maybe you don't have access to the Magical Wal-mart. I don't think that you should evaluate a class feature assuming you will have access to a tertiary magic item. Also as with Hidden Weapon, this rating is determined by the usefulness of the Ninja Trick as a Ninja Trick.

8)Prestige Classes are rare and not-preferred from a design standpoint.

9) Well-prepared is already listed as green

10) of course, but those are much rarer in Pathfinder.


j b 200 wrote:


2) Leadership is uncolored because it is often not allowed in many games. For instance, in the games I DM and play in, Leadership is outright banned. In other games, you can select it if as long as there aren't a bunch of other "pets/cohorts" so that it doesn't slow down combat even more. In still others, you can select Leadership BUT the DM only allows you to control the feat of the cohort and not the build or the cohort is more of an NPC or a dozen other variables in controlling the vagueries of the Leadership mechanics.
Since the usefulness of this feat varies so much from game to game it can't really be judged from a optimization standpoint. That being said, Leadership is super broken and fantastic for powergaming.

Weird, I have the exact opposite experience--I have never played in a game where a GM/DM banned Leadership. Even the heavy powergamers I know rarely take it. The way I know it is basically a hireling NPC that you don't have to pay. You request the class and once in your service you can request they learn certain things (such as "take feat X"), but the DM/GM keeps the stats. Maybe it depends on the local gaming community.

Quote:


3) With the exception of the situation that you laid out, I don't think that Seize the Moment is that great. First Critical threats, on a best case scenario, is only 25% of the time (keen wakizashi), and you still have to confirm. That rate will be even lower b.c. you have to roll well twice not one.

Which is why you add Assault Leader and Opportunist to offset that.

Quote:


You also have to get another team member to take the feat. Chances are your fighter isn't going to have Combat Reflexes. If you have a flanking buddy in your team, using a feat to make the flanking your are going to do anyway better is an easier pull than convincing your Fighter to take two feats for an extra attack he MIGHT get every 4 rounds or so.

Good point. But if you do have another dex type character in the party (rogue, monk, etc), it's great.

Quote:


b/c your cohort can't be any higher level than Your level -2.

Your level -1 (they just start at -2 levels but can level up) but I understand your point.

Quote:


7) A wand of Spider Climb is cheaper still, but you don't get either at level 2, or likely level 5. And maybe you don't have access to the Magical Wal-mart. I don't think that you should evaluate a class feature assuming you will have access to a tertiary magic item. Also as with Hidden Weapon, this rating is determined by the usefulness of the Ninja Trick as a Ninja Trick.

I see, another excellent point.

Quote:


8)Prestige Classes are rare and not-preferred from a design standpoint.

In 3.5 taking a prestige class was almost a requirement as they were so much better than sticking with the main classes. I know PF made taking prestige classes more rare but there are still some great builds that can incorporate them.

Sczarni

@Darth ^ Coincidently I just built a Ninja 6/Red Mantis Assassin 6 as an NPC in a game I'm going to be running. She's pretty bad @ss actually. There's great synergy what with the continued sneak attack progression and the CHA based spontaneous casting!

I can't say if a Ninja 10/Red Mantis 10 would be as "optimal" as a Ninja 20, but from what I can tell it should be fun build to play.

Sczarni

@J B 200: Thanks for the guide! I enjoyed reading it and it's provided inspiration for me to make a few different "styles" of Ninja... With so many options it could take awhile.

Any chance you'll be adding to the guide at any point?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The guide is in a constant state of flux. I most recently expanded the section on builds and Equipment. I have mostly been using the list of feats on Pathfindersrd.com to put together my ability lists, but I recently noticed that there are several feats from UC that are not on the list (at least on the Feat Tree page), so I need to go through the book and see if there is anything that I missed that would be particularly helpful. I've also been debating expanding my races section with the new info from Advanced Race Guide. I try to stick to core books because there are many groups that don't allow abilities from many of the APs or other side books.

I haven't purchased Ultimate Equipment yet, when i do I expect to redo the equipment section significantly.

Sczarni

jb200: Are you certain Shadow Clone works as you say it does in the guide? For reference;

Ninja Guide wrote:
the drawback is that unlike the spell, you don't get any extra due to higher level

The entry for shadow clone reads (emphasis is mine);

d20pfsrd wrote:
Shadow Clone (Su): The ninja can create 1d4 shadowy duplicates of herself that conceal her true location. This ability functions as mirror image, using the ninja’s level as her caster level. Using this ability is a standard action that uses up 1 ki point.

When you read the excerpt from Mirror Image it states;

Mirror Image wrote:
When mirror image is cast, 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total) are created.

I don't think it is unreasonable for someone to read the above and infer that the Ninja would in fact get a scaling version - afterall it functions as the spell using the Ninja's level as her caster level.

I don't profess to be correct but I read that as saying a 15th level Ninja gets 1d4 +5 Shadow clones (to a maximum of 8).

Regards,

D


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Krodjin wrote:

I don't think it is unreasonable for someone to read the above and infer that the Ninja would in fact get a scaling version - afterall it functions as the spell using the Ninja's level as her caster level.

I don't profess to be correct but I read that as saying a 15th level Ninja gets 1d4 +5 Shadow clones (to a maximum of 8).

Yeah, I reread that and the spell several times. I think that my conclusion is the correct one, but there is definitely room for interpretation.

So this is how I read Shadow Clone. So the first sentence tells you what the ability does "create 1d4 shadow duplicates." The Second sentence tells you the mechanics of how these clone work. The caster level statement is required to know how long the clones last. If I can reword it a little:

"You create up to 4 illusory copies of yourself. These copies function as illusory copies created through the spell Mirror Image. The duration of the illusion last for 1 round per level."

To me if the developers intended for this ability to work exactly as Mirror Image (as you suggest) then they would have just said "you can cast Mirror Image" or they would have left out the line at the beginning, just saying "create shadowy duplicates of herself" without the "1d4."

I agree that there is some ambiguity here. I would also say that with other abilities, if they scale with level, the wording is explicit. Some thing like "the ninja can create an additional image at level 3 and one additional image every three beyond that to a maximum of 1d4+4 at level 12."

Sczarni

I think your assessment is reasonable as well and will probably go with it as it is the more conservative approach.

Much better for the GM to surprise me by saying I get more shadowy clones then fewer!


Thanks for the guide, can't wait to see even more added.

ARG would be great as would UE


JB, First of all, thanks for a fantastic guide!

I've been building up a Ninja and Ultimate Equipment has some great selections. Here's a few that I think you might call out in your guide...

Ring of Ki Mastery - Store 2 ki points and ninja tricks cost less, still 1 point minimum. This makes forgotten trick far more viable.

Amulet of Hidden Strength - recover two ki pool points per day.

Stalking - this is a weapon enchantment. Assign the weapon a target to study. For each round you study the target, the weapon gets +1d6 precision damage up to the max weapon bonus (ie +3). I see this as ideal for a secondary weapon like a dagger. Whip it out, target something, start sneaking up on your target, kill with weapon damage + sneak attack + stalking precision.

Wyroot - this is a weapon material. Can only apply to weapons made of wood (ie nunchaku) or to things with a wooden haft (ie longspear). Wyroot recovers ki pool on critical strikes. Ideally you would want this on something with an expanded crit range. Unfortunately, from what I can see, there are no weapons the ninja is proficient with that have both an expanded crit range AND a wooden structure. A Terbutje or Bardiche or Fauchard would work if the ninja was only proficient in them...


A few more:

Iron Spike of Safe Passage - nail it into the ground, create a 15 foot high, 15 foot wide illusion. Could be a hill, crates and barrels, mound of rubble, or a small structure. Instant camo, then when you are done pull it back up.

Eyes of Keen Sight - spectacles. +2 to Perception and low light vision.

Of course, the trouble with all of these is the cost. It will take you a bit to aquire any of these. As I build my char, I may go through and stat up a quick "Ninja kit" with handy items for first level.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yeah, I don't own UE so I haven't had a chance to go through the new items and update the guide with them. I do have Wyroot in the equipment section already (since it's from ARG). I will include your suggestions, with an obvious caveat that I can't independently evaluate them.

How much are the Eyes of Keen Sight? because the Eyes of the Eagle (one of my personal fave items) gives +5 and is only 2500gp.

Grand Lodge

Level 2 Ninja for PFS

What do you guys think of my halfling ninja build? Any advice? What should I spend my first ~2000gp on before level 4? I'm thinking Mithral Chain shirt is the obvious choice.

Thinking of getting Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack by 6th level.


j b 200 wrote:

Yeah, I don't own UE so I haven't had a chance to go through the new items and update the guide with them. I do have Wyroot in the equipment section already (since it's from ARG). I will include your suggestions, with an obvious caveat that I can't independently evaluate them.

How much are the Eyes of Keen Sight? because the Eyes of the Eagle (one of my personal fave items) gives +5 and is only 2500gp.

Eyes of Keen sight are good deal more expensive at 6000gp.

Grand Lodge

sveden wrote:

Level 2 Ninja for PFS

What do you guys think of my halfling ninja build? Any advice? What should I spend my first ~2000gp on before level 4? I'm thinking Mithral Chain shirt is the obvious choice.

Thinking of getting Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack by 6th level.

Hmmm upon further reflection maybe I'll drop my STR to 11 and bump my CON to 14.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

What are some nice things even or especially with halfling ninjas are are the whip mastery path with gang up and greater trip and weapon finesse. Expensive but worth it. Untill very high levels you can trip most stuff and shred them to pieces.

Also really good with halflings is a halfling sling stick with invisible blade. Maxing out the halfling oportunist prestige class gives you sneak attack on AoO´s, combine that with combat patrol and/or snap shot chain.
Then add Clustered Shots. Of course possible with shuriken too.

I played both very successfull with a 20 point buy build, although we houseruled that i don´t need the exotic weapon proficiency and i dipped 2 levels monk. Would need to search the builds again for more info...

My latest idea is a sylph ninja though, with some alternative racial traits like Whipsering wind giving you a bonus on stealth and Breeze-kissed. Like the wind is optional.
Then you can take the sylph racial feats Airy steps and Wings of Air.
Cloud Gazer is a nice option too. With UMD device and a wand of obscuring mist youre nice there. Possibly the rogue talents minor and major magic would be nice for that too, if they wouldnt suck so hard. Smoke Bomb could be an option too, but different people different opinions there probably.

Also a great deal is hellcat stealth. You need skill focus stealth for that, what means +3/+6 on stealth. If you are small, you get another +4, or you play a sylph lie mentioned above. Hiding observed in bright light with -10 is nothing really difficult then. Real nice if your invisibility goes down.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
sveden wrote:

Level 2 Ninja for PFS

What do you guys think of my halfling ninja build? Any advice? What should I spend my first ~2000gp on before level 4? I'm thinking Mithral Chain shirt is the obvious choice.

Thinking of getting Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack by 6th level.

It looks good to me. I don't think you can get spring attack by level 6, since you only get a feat at 3 5 and 7.


I was looking at my pathfinder books when I thought "I don't know much about the Ninja. I wonder what the community thinks of this class?" and went looking for a guide.

You might imagine my surprise when I read the shout-out you have in intro! Haha, you made me feel like an internet celebrity for 5 seconds, and it was great.

Looking forward to actually reading your guide (since I stopped right when I saw this).


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sean FitzSimon wrote:

I was looking at my pathfinder books when I thought "I don't know much about the Ninja. I wonder what the community thinks of this class?" and went looking for a guide.

You might imagine my surprise when I read the shout-out you have in intro! Haha, you made me feel like an internet celebrity for 5 seconds, and it was great.

Looking forward to actually reading your guide (since I stopped right when I saw this).

Well I liked yours. I think it's one of the better ones out there.

Grand Lodge

j b 200 wrote:
sveden wrote:

Level 2 Ninja for PFS

What do you guys think of my halfling ninja build? Any advice? What should I spend my first ~2000gp on before level 4? I'm thinking Mithral Chain shirt is the obvious choice.

Thinking of getting Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack by 6th level.

It looks good to me. I don't think you can get spring attack by level 6, since you only get a feat at 3 5 and 7.

I was thinking of burning a ninja trick on one of the feats. I'll re-check my math.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yeah, if you take Rogue Talent-Combat Trick-Mobility/Spring Attack should work fine.

Sczarni

Was recently toying around with a Half-Elf Ninja who uses Ancestral Arms to become proficient with Fauchard... This wyroot material sounds promising for that - will have to look into it further... Thanks for the heads up.


Now that Tengu is a Pathfinder Society legal race to play I have researched it and was surprised to see that it didn't rate that highly in the guide. As far as I can tell, if you take the right racial alternative options it becomes the most optimal of all races to pick.


Mort the Cleverly Named wrote:
I think you underestimate Razortusk. You take no penalty to your normal attacks for using it, and it carries full sneak attack damage. At least a green.

It is oft ignored, perhaps because the bestiaries have this unpleasant tendency to completely ignore the rule, but this is not actually accurate:

CRB, p.182 wrote:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting.'


Might also be worth mentioning in the guide that taking Combat Trick drastically reduces the effectiveness of Forgotten Trick - since you can't use Forgotten Trick to "remember" a trick you already have and thus would be unable to select your choice of feats.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
c873788 wrote:
Now that Tengu is a Pathfinder Society legal race to play I have researched it and was surprised to see that it didn't rate that highly in the guide. As far as I can tell, if you take the right racial alternative options it becomes the most optimal of all races to pick.

The reason I rated Tengu as a boarderline green/orange is because despite some strong elements, there are also some quite weak ones. Bonus to Wis is the worst since your bonus is completely wasted. And the Con hurts too since you will be getting hit. Yes the dex is good and I do really like sword trained but that alone doesn't hop it up to blue.

They are a decent to good selection, but not optimal. Optimal would have a bonus to Dex and Cha, with a minus to Wis, bonuses to move silently and perception, darkvision, and maybe a free feat or useful spell-like.


j b 200 wrote:

The reason I rated Tengu as a boarderline green/orange is because despite some strong elements, there are also some quite weak ones. Bonus to Wis is the worst since your bonus is completely wasted. And the Con hurts too since you will be getting hit. Yes the dex is good and I do really like sword trained but that alone doesn't hop it up to blue.

They are a decent to good selection, but not optimal. Optimal would have a bonus to Dex and Cha, with a minus to Wis, bonuses to move silently and perception, darkvision, and maybe a free feat or useful spell-like.

I understand what you are saying about the ability points but they can be shuffled around. I would drop the bonus 2 points in Wisdom and put it somewhere else if you are using say a 20 point build which is most common. The moderate drawback of ability bonuses and penalties are outweighed by the huge advantage you get for this race when picking the alternate racial traits. You also no longer need a super high dexterity score.

Sword trained is NOT where it's at. You take the Claw Attack which with your bite attack gives you 3 attacks at first level to which you can apply sneak damage. On top of this you are saving on 2 feats - weapon finesse and 2 weapon fighting. You no longer need to have a super high Dexterity and can have a reasonable Strength score to do more damage. You no longer suffer from -2 to hit for 2 weapon fighting.

You also have low light vision and the sneaky racial trait giving you +2 to stealth and perception, 2 of your most important skills.

The ninja is all about making the most of sneak attacks and ki points. Let's look at how a sample Tengu Ninja is doing for sneak attack by 3rd level assuming 20 point build with the following distribution:

16 str; 12 con; 14 dex; 10 int; 10 wis; 14 chr

Lets pick bludgeoner and sap adept as 1st and 3rd level feats (Note: bite and claw attacks surprisingly do bludgeoning damage as well).

3 attacks (+2 BAB and +3 Str) to hit with no penalty for 2 weapon attack.

Damage is 1d3+2d6+3+4 + 1d3+2d6+3+4 + 1d3+2d6+3+4 if you hit with all attacks with sneak attack. You are doing a lot more damage than your typical ninja sneak attack damage at 3rd level with average damage equalling 48 points of damage for your Tengu.

You use your ki pool to help you sneak or keep you alive with either the invisibility or mirror image ninja trick at 2nd level. Let's face it, even if you had a slightly higher dex, you still aren't going to have the highest AC and these tricks help mitigate that problem.

Alternatively, you could choose not to go the sap adept choice with your Tengu ninja and now you have spare feats to choose and could get Toughness at 1st level and extra ki at 3rd level as more ki points never hurts a Ninja build. The point is that unlike some Ninja builds a natural attacking Tengu is not feat starved.

I would agree that if you went Swordtrained, then the Tengu is probably green/orange. IMHO, if you go Claw Attack, then it should be blue. I would be interested in reading your response to my ideas.


c873788 wrote:


16 str; 12 con; 14 dex; 10 int; 10 wis; 14 chr

Lets pick bludgeoner and sap adept as 1st and 3rd level feats (Note: bite and claw attacks surprisingly do bludgeoning damage as well).

3 attacks (+2 BAB and +3 Str) to hit with no penalty for 2...

This build also seems like it would pair well with Snake Style. You already have Improved unarmed strike for free for purposes of your natural attacks.

Skill Focus: Sense Motive would really start to make a lot of sense with this build as well!


tocath wrote:
c873788 wrote:


16 str; 12 con; 14 dex; 10 int; 10 wis; 14 chr

Lets pick bludgeoner and sap adept as 1st and 3rd level feats (Note: bite and claw attacks surprisingly do bludgeoning damage as well).

3 attacks (+2 BAB and +3 Str) to hit with no penalty for 2...

This build also seems like it would pair well with Snake Style. You already have Improved unarmed strike for free for purposes of your natural attacks.

Skill Focus: Sense Motive would really start to make a lot of sense with this build as well!

NOTE: If you are going to take Skill Focus, as a human, take the Alternative Trait that lets you take a Skill Focus every so many levels.

My ninja is using Snake Style and also going into Shadow Bloodline (Hide in Plain Sight, cool shift of characters and generally fitting/flavour), allowing me to take SF:Sense Motive, Stealth and eventually something else.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

A shadow bloodline is pretty cool, if only the improved eldritch heritage would be available before level 11. I think that´s pretty late, also the first ability isn´t that good somehow.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
c873788 wrote:


16 str; 12 con; 14 dex; 10 int; 10 wis; 14 chr

Lets pick bludgeoner and sap adept as 1st and 3rd level feats (Note: bite and claw attacks surprisingly do bludgeoning damage as well).

3 attacks (+2 BAB and +3 Str) to hit with no penalty for 2 weapon attack.

Damage is 1d3+2d6+3+4 + 1d3+2d6+3+4 + 1d3+2d6+3+4 if you hit with all attacks with sneak attack. You are doing a lot more damage than your typical ninja sneak attack damage at 3rd level with average damage equalling 48 points of damage for your Tengu.

this is a pretty nice set up, but a halfling could easily have an array like this

Str 12 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 14.

He gets +1 to hit -1 damage, +1 hp/lvl, and his AC is 2 better. Also your max damage is for non-lethal only. This means that your opponent gets double healing.


Only skimmed the thread but I just wanted to weigh in with this: Any time a class gets some of it's juiciest perks from a "secondary stat",like cha for paladins and wis for gunslingers, I tend to put more emphasis on that stat. I would always go with more than a 14 on the secondary in those cases IF at all possible.


tocath wrote:
c873788 wrote:


16 str; 12 con; 14 dex; 10 int; 10 wis; 14 chr

Lets pick bludgeoner and sap adept as 1st and 3rd level feats (Note: bite and claw attacks surprisingly do bludgeoning damage as well).

3 attacks (+2 BAB and +3 Str) to hit with no penalty for 2...

This build also seems like it would pair well with Snake Style. You already have Improved unarmed strike for free for purposes of your natural attacks.

Skill Focus: Sense Motive would really start to make a lot of sense with this build as well!

Yes, Snake Style is very potent. It would mean shuffling your ability scores around slightly as wisdom is needed. 1st level feat would have to be Skill Focus: Sense Motive and 3rd level feat would be Snake Style. I love that Snake Style can even be used against touch attacks.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Conundrum wrote:
Only skimmed the thread but I just wanted to weigh in with this: Any time a class gets some of it's juiciest perks from a "secondary stat",like cha for paladins and wis for gunslingers, I tend to put more emphasis on that stat. I would always go with more than a 14 on the secondary in those cases IF at all possible.

The Ninja is little different than the Paladin, since the Pal uses Cha for saves, smite evil, lay on hands, channel energy, and spells, where the Ninja only uses it for Ki. I guess the key phrase is "if at all possible." Since more ki won't help if you're not hitting or your AC is so low you are getting creamed, a Ninja needs Dex a lot more than a Pal needs Str.

If you take 2 str and put it in cha, Pal loses only 1 damage but gains 1 to saves, spells, lay on hands, channel energy, etc. If you take 2 dex from a Ninja and put it in Cha he gets one more ki(which he might get the benefit of for one round), but loses 1 to hit, 1 AC and 1 to most main skills and ref saves.

Shadow Lodge

If you have two ki points in a ring of ki mastery, does Forgotten Trick cost two ki points total, or only one total?


One.

Shadow Lodge

I am building a Wayang ninja for PFS. Not optimal but I like the flavor and look forward to the fun. I may go with Shadowdancer Prestige later.

With:
10 Strength
20 Dex
12 Con
9 Int
10 Wis
13 Char

Dissolution's Child

Currently at 1st level with +15 stealth and a wakizashi and Weapon Finesse. I was thinking of changing things up for more optimal performance, but decided to stick with it just because I think the concept of a little black shadow ninja is great.

Any suggestion on how to best maximize damage or concerns with the build would be welcome.

Thanks!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I just discovered that your guide had been updated with the ARG and was surprised to see you didn't do more of a write-up on the Kitsune. While officially an uncommon race they seem to be fairly popular and had a prominent place in both the Dragon Empire sourcebooks and Jade Regent AP.

Also, given how ridiculously good their racial feats are for a Ninja I suspect they should be bumped up to blue.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Son of the Veterinarian wrote:

I just discovered that your guide had been updated with the ARG and was surprised to see you didn't do more of a write-up on the Kitsune. While officially an uncommon race they seem to be fairly popular and had a prominent place in both the Dragon Empire sourcebooks and Jade Regent AP.

Also, given how ridiculously good their racial feats are for a Ninja I suspect they should be bumped up to blue.

I had Kitsune borderline blue, so I bumped it. As you can see from the write up at the top of the uncommon section, since these will rarely be allowed by DMs, I did't do a larger write up. It can take between 20-40 minutes per race to do a write up and the guide is already 30 pages long.

I have also updated the equipment section with UE stuff.


I really like your guide so far, but I have a few critiques.

1:You really undervalue wisdom. You really can't dump WIS on a class that has it as a bad save. A 12 is usually my minimum for martial types.
2:I wouldn't push Dervish dance at all, as a rogue your damage is nearly entirely Sneak Attack Damage and an entire feat for some extra damage when using a subpar weapon(you get wakisashis) is sorta lame, especially since you can't really duaCl wield scimitars. A wakisashi with the agile enchant is probably better overall. It's a light weapon so you can have two without an additonal -2 penalty and all your weapon focus abilities tie into it.
3:If you add in the featured races I absolutely recommend Catfolk. They're AMAZING Ninjas. With their own rogue talent they get d8's for sneak attack when using their claws and with a feat they get pounce. They're also a +2 Dex -2 Wis +2 Cha race which is near perfect. Note that you need a 13 strength to get the Claw Pounce Feat. The Claw Blade Weapon expands your crit range(I can't remember how much but even a 19-20 is great) and there is even a magical version that lets your claw blades do 2d4 and they're treated as two handers(1.5x str damage). Sadly taking advantage of the second part would require rolled stats for a high strength, as the most you'll get out of that is a +1 with 13 strength. Still Something.
So combine Claw Pounce with TWF and Rending Claws(Magical Claw Blades) and the Scout Archetype and you a ton of free sneak attacks that crit on 15's.

4:Assuming I'm doing it right...Invisible Blade lets me treat EVERY attack as a sneak attack, correct?

5:Critique Rogue talents too.

Shadow Lodge

I think you need to reread Ring of Ki Mastery. It reduces the ki required by 1 up to a minimum cost of 1. That is, the only two tricks in the entire ninja list that get reduced are Forgotten Trick and the Capstone.

It's still good, since it gives you 2 extra ki to use after you have an off day, and reduces the cost of Forgotten Trick from 2 (+ the cost of second trick) to 1 (+ the cost of second trick).

What I really like about the Amulet of Hidden Strength is the ability to just use it like a slotless wondrous item outside of combat: ie. Take off your current neck piece, put this on, focus for a full-round to regain 2 ki, then put your previous neck piece on. You won't be able to mix it with a Necklace of Ki Serenity (due to how you gain ki points), but it allows you to wear, for example, an Amulet of Natural Armor, while still gaining extra ki.

Shadow Lodge

Oh, and another thing about Forgotten Trick: if you don't take Combat Trick as one of your permanent choices, you can use Forgotten Trick to gain any Combat Feat whose prereq you meet, for <level> rounds. Too bad they expressly forbade Rogue Talents.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kolfinna wrote:

I really like your guide so far, but I have a few critiques.

1:You really undervalue wisdom. You really can't dump WIS on a class that has it as a bad save. A 12 is usually my minimum for martial types.
2:I wouldn't push Dervish dance at all, as a rogue your damage is nearly entirely Sneak Attack Damage and an entire feat for some extra damage when using a subpar weapon(you get wakisashis) is sorta lame, especially since you can't really duaCl wield scimitars. A wakisashi with the agile enchant is probably better overall. It's a light weapon so you can have two without an additonal -2 penalty and all your weapon focus abilities tie into it.
3:If you add in the featured races I absolutely recommend Catfolk. They're AMAZING Ninjas. With their own rogue talent they get d8's for sneak attack when using their claws and with a feat they get pounce. They're also a +2 Dex -2 Wis +2 Cha race which is near perfect. Note that you need a 13 strength to get the Claw Pounce Feat. The Claw Blade Weapon expands your crit range(I can't remember how much but even a 19-20 is great) and there is even a magical version that lets your claw blades do 2d4 and they're treated as two handers(1.5x str damage). Sadly taking advantage of the second part would require rolled stats for a high strength, as the most you'll get out of that is a +1 with 13 strength. Still Something.
So combine Claw Pounce with TWF and Rending Claws(Magical Claw Blades) and the Scout Archetype and you a ton of free sneak attacks that crit on 15's.

4:Assuming I'm doing it right...Invisible Blade lets me treat EVERY attack as a sneak attack, correct?

5:Critique Rogue talents too.

I agree that a low wisdom hurts, but the problem is that, with a low point buy your point have to some from somewhere.

I don't think I even mention dervish dance in the guide.
Featured races are at the bottom of the guide.
Yes Invisible Blade allows you to SA with every attack assuming that the person loses their Dex bonus to AC. If they have blindsight or the Blindfight feats that may not be the case, but generally that is the case.
The guide is already 30 pages long and there are others who have done a lot of hard work to write rogue guides and their comments are perfectly appropriate for a Ninja.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Serum wrote:

I think you need to reread Ring of Ki Mastery. It reduces the ki required by 1 up to a minimum cost of 1. That is, the only two tricks in the entire ninja list that get reduced are Forgotten Trick and the Capstone.

It's still good, since it gives you 2 extra ki to use after you have an off day, and reduces the cost of Forgotten Trick from 2 (+ the cost of second trick) to 1 (+ the cost of second trick).

What I really like about the Amulet of Hidden Strength is the ability to just use it like a slotless wondrous item outside of combat: ie. Take off your current neck piece, put this on, focus for a full-round to regain 2 ki, then put your previous neck piece on. You won't be able to mix it with a Necklace of Ki Serenity (due to how you gain ki points), but it allows you to wear, for example, an Amulet of Natural Armor, while still gaining extra ki.

Yeah good catch on the Ki Mastery, a good ring, but not fantastic. Sometimes when you are reading through 200 item entries your brain fills in the blank or jumps to conclusions and I'm off to the races.

Lantern Lodge

Hmmm, so I assume that I need to pick up the latest equipment book and check out that Amulet. I like the idea of rotating it out, but atm the neck slot is free for this PFS character.


You should make mention about how absurdly good Catfolk Ninja are.

d8's for sneak attacks, a feat that gives you POUNCE(accessible at level 14 via the feat trick), scent and/or low light vision, and a bonus to dexterity and charisma.

Shadow Lodge

Hmm.. Correct me if i am wrong, BUT, a ninja with scimitar would be a really good build, all you have to do is:
Take Heirloom weapon (Scimitar) for proffension
Two-weapon fighting
Weapon finesse (Unarmed attacks), The dervish dance feat dosent say it have to me scimitar..
Ninja trick: Unarmed Combat Training
woola, all out dex for att and dmg, even thoug your unarmed dmg is pretty bad, its still an ekstra attack for sneak
Am i missing something?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Flameheart wrote:

Hmm.. Correct me if i am wrong, BUT, a ninja with scimitar would be a really good build, all you have to do is:

Take Heirloom weapon (Scimitar) for proffension
Two-weapon fighting
Weapon finesse (Unarmed attacks), The dervish dance feat dosent say it have to me scimitar..
Ninja trick: Unarmed Combat Training
woola, all out dex for att and dmg, even thoug your unarmed dmg is pretty bad, its still an ekstra attack for sneak
Am i missing something?

I'm not really sure what you are trying to do here. Yeah a scimitar is nice for dervish dance, but weapon finesse doesn't need to select a weapon, it's just a general feat. This is also somewhat feat intensive and with sneak attack you don't really need the extra dex damage. That said dervish is a great feat for the finesse build.


although they get a miuns to charisma, i like the android race for ninja. i would give them a solid, green.

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