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Hiho.
I got two questions that came up the last days when I was talking to some of my friends.
After telling them of PS Plays and the different Adventures one of my friends asked why the Gamemaster should be the one who is not only having all the work but also the financial loss.
So they asked me if the GMs of the Pathfinder Society normally take an admission fee from the players for the meetings.
I couldn't answer that and would never thought of anything like that myself, but it is something that is bugging me since then.
Have anybody of you ever taken money from your (regular) players to compensate your expanses?
How would you handle this?
The second thing is the lending of scenarios.
One of my frieds got one of them for himself and asked me if it is legal to lend me the printout for me to GM it.
If it was an normal printed book I wouldn't think twice cause that is what you normally do to fellow gamemasters but something about these being PDFs makes it kinda fishy for me.
What do you think about it?
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The PDF's are watermarked with the email address and name of the person who purchased the PDF. I don't believe allowing someone to borrow a printed copy should be promoted, because that is $4.00 out of Paizo's pocket.
That being said, you are more than allowed to charge $1 or 50 cents for players to play, to help compensate you for your overhead in running a scenario.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Some places charge for the space, other's charge for the scenario cost. My group has a donation tin where players and Gms can contribute anything from a few cents to some actual bucks. Keeping it anonymous means that some people never donate, sure, but I found out that it also makes people feel guilty when I announce to donation tin at the start of each game.
To prematurely quash any potential naysayers -- I pulled a crisp $50 bill from the tin after last nights game, and I have no idea who it was. People have the potential to be generous.
As for lending scenarios, I feel that if you have already purchased it, you can GM it or play it. So if he wants to loan you a game, so you can GM it and he can play in it, that's fine, as long as the purchaser is involved with the game. You reuse the books and the minis, why not the scenarios? But if you print off, say, a dozen copies and give them out to people in your area that you don't play with. Very bad form.
Director of Brand Strategy
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What individual groups do to offset the financial costs of running games is up to each group individually. I think charging admission into organized play games can deter new players from joining in, especially people who just want to try it out or who simply can't afford even a small fee (students, unemployed, etc.). It's certainly not uncommon, but there are some considerations to think about.
As for lending of scenarios, it is generally assumed that people share printed copies of scenarios, just as they'd share a printed book. What isn't allowed is digitally distributing PDFs; everyone is expected to download their own, personalized copy of any Paizo PDF from paizo.com.
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What our FLGS (friendly local gaming store) does is has people pay $5 and they get a $5 in store voucher. First time players are free, and if you bring a first time player, its free. GM's get a $5 voucher as thanks. The store also tries to keep copies of the scenarios on hand in a file system, so we don't have to worry about what GM owns what scenario. Figure out what works for your store/group, and have at it!
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We mostly play PFS as a home game. I have asked the players to donate to the expense of the game. It is not a requirement but everyone seemed fine with it. We use the money for scenarios and supplies like cups, plates and plasticware. When the money runs dry, I ask the group again.
I still purchase scenarios out of my pocket but the group donations help.
The other places we play are at conventions and there is always an assumed cost to play(admission and event tickets).
I would say it is a fairly common practice.
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At almost all of our locations in the Denver area we have a $2 fee per game that goes to pay for a $10 gift card to the GM from whatever game shop hosts the PFS games. It is also known that if you are broke or even new to PFS that the $2 fee can be waved.
We have not found the fee to be restrictive to new players. Our player base on our Yahoo group is over 200 people now (Front Range of Colorado) so we seem to be growing the group just fine. The GM's appreciate the gift card and it allows for them to buy more books, maps, and minis.
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I think charging admission into organized play games can deter new players from joining in, especially people who just want to try it out or who simply can't afford even a small fee (students, unemployed, etc.).
This is where many of my local group falls, and why I front most of the money involved with GMing *Minis, maps printouts (Ink gets damn expensive!). Too many of my players simply could not afford a fee, I am lucky they can afford coming to the store.
One of the reason I am worried that my local group would fall apart if I left because I have taken up so much of the responsibility.
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When my home group started playing PFS back at scenario #1 Silent Tide, we all took turns GMing. Whenever you ran a scenario, you were responsible for buying it. This worked great for the first 3 years. Then I became a Venture-Captain and now it seems I run everything. :-(
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When my home group started playing PFS back at scenario #1 Silent Tide, we all took turns GMing. Whenever you ran a scenario, you were responsible for buying it. This worked great for the first 3 years. Then I became a Venture-Captain and now it seems I run everything. :-(
We do much the same with our weekly home game. We have three active GMs and swap off responsibilities every 6 weeks or so. That way no one person forks our more than $20 in any 4 month period.
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None of the venues here in DFW charge players anything. I'd kind of like to see that change, as even a $1/player fee can go towards things like physical copies of the books for the players, donations to stores for the game space, and offsetting GM costs.
Since I get the scenarios as a VC, I'm not worried about the cost of the scenarios, but I'd like to see other GMs get their scenario and materials costs compensated.
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The little $2 donation goes to the store for a gift card. Each GM gets a $10 gift card to the hosting store. This way they get a little business for hosting and the GM can get some additional goodies that we all get to enjoy anyway. The gift card does not help with scenario costs but it is a fair trade to get a $10 gift card as well. This also keeps people a little more interested in GMing. We have never had a shortage of GMs although I doubt we would even without the gift card.
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I feel like a harsh task master (again), but I do not loan out my scenarios anymore. This is something that I see a lot of groups doing. Of course, if someone else does it, or if the host venue (FLGS) does it, it is what it is. I try to remind myself that PFS is a marketing tool for Paizo and the more product they sell, including scenarios, the more cool stuff we will get. YMMV
In most case, if all the players would buy from the FLGS (assuming that is where you are playing) there would be less issue with pay to play. The store would be willing to absorb the printing cost and perhaps even the purchasing of the scenario. Whenever I play/GM at an FLGS, I always buy something. May not always be a HC book or a block of mini's, but it'll be more than a can of soda and a candy bar.
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We have a small 'library' of printouts at the shop. As for expenses, the expenses are fairly trivial compared to the costs of travel eating, etc. Everyone pays $3 to play for shop space and the GM gets $7.50 store credit. We have a couple GMs who are scrapping pennies and we try to accommodate them by keeping them provided with scenarios, maps and now we even have the paizo cardboard minis from the beginners box for them.
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The LGS where I usually GM does not charge for table space to GMs or players, and even includes a blurb about the gaming being free in their boilerplate that they add to the scenario information when they post it on their calendar. Not my choice, I just have to live with it.
I feel like a harsh task master (again), but I do not loan out my scenarios anymore. This is something that I see a lot of groups doing. Of course, if someone else does it, or if the host venue (FLGS) does it, it is what it is. I try to remind myself that PFS is a marketing tool for Paizo and the more product they sell, including scenarios, the more cool stuff we will get. YMMV
In most case, if all the players would buy from the FLGS (assuming that is where you are playing) there would be less issue with pay to play. The store would be willing to absorb the printing cost and perhaps even the purchasing of the scenario. Whenever I play/GM at an FLGS, I always buy something. May not always be a HC book or a block of mini's, but it'll be more than a can of soda and a candy bar.
Bob, Got to say that there are even rules in the PFSOP about how to properly lend out scenarios/modules for other GMs to run, so no one is breaking the rules. As Mark recently listed, as an organizer/coordinator, you can lend a hardcopy of the scenario or module to the actual GM. Not the PDF, and, according to what I have seen, the GM needs to return the hardcopy once they have completed all the runs of the scenario you have setup as coordinator.
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I myself am a student, my cash is highly limited really. Recently tho I did charge, not in all games, nor did I kick anyone who didn't have it. Its small amounts enough to cover the scenario expenses , less then 1 american dollar I believe per person. Sometimes I don't request it when scenario expenses are really low or none.
But every additional money goes in my red box near desk for future scenario's and possibly more dices and minis, maybe I can even get to buy something from paizo eventually, who knows.
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so no one is breaking the rules
I wasn't suggesting otherwise. Just saying that the intent of PFS is to market PFRPG and to create another revenue stream. I try to support that.
What I have experienced is that when the organizer supplies the GM's with the scenario, it becomes an entitlement and expected. Even when they are running events on alternate days, at alternate venues, even outside my region, they still expect me to "loan" them a copy. And when I said, no, they reacted like I was being a jerk or something. I got tired of having to justify under what conditions I would provide the materials.
That being said, if the FLGS is a registered retailer and buys a copy of the scenarios to keep at the store, I support them providing it to the GM's for the group to use. In my experience, to allow the GM's to prepare, the digital pdf copy gets forwarded to them because they are not in a position to stop by the store and borrow a printed version. There has to be a line we won't cross and, IMO, this is past that line.
For conventions, I will make every effort to get the scenarios dropped into someone's account two weeks prior to the event, but I will not send them my watermarked copies to read through. If that is not acceptable, they are more than welcome to purchase the scenario on their own.
Perhaps I am being too protective/sensitive about this subject but, IMO, there is too much sharing of the IP and that is not good for Paizo. YMMV.
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I believe that pathfinder does not make money on the PFS scenarios, but are simply trying to make cost. PFS is a moneymaker by bringing new people to the table and making current players buy rulebooks. So, I think that Paizo is more flexible about the use and spread of these scenarios. The major exception is NEW scenarios that are not yet for purchase, these are strongly guarded.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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It doesn't matter whether something is free or costs $1,000. If you purchase a hardcopy book, you can lend it out to whomever you want, but you may not reproduce it (ie. make a ton of copies and hand them out). If you purchase a digital product, you may make a physical printout of that material for your personal use, and can lend that copy as you see fit just as if it were a printed book you bought off the shelf. At the same time, you may not distribute the digital file yourself. Not only is it watermarked with the downloader's information (meaning we can track it back to you if your buddy puts it up on bittorrent) but we want to be able to inform every person using one of our digital products if we update the file. We can't do that if they didn't download it from us.
So while you're correct that Pathfinder Society Scenarios are not a major money-maker for Paizo, they're not free, and we do make money on them. We aren't more flexible about how they're used or distributed than we are about anything else. If we stopped making a profit on scenarios, it would have drastic negative implications for the organized play program as a whole.
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If you purchase a hardcopy book, you can lend it out to whomever you want, but you may not reproduce it (ie. make a ton of copies and hand them out). If you purchase a digital product, you may make a physical printout of that material for your personal use, and can lend that copy as you see fit just as if it were a printed book you bought off the shelf. At the same time, you may not distribute the digital file yourself.
Just FYI, that's not true for all jurisdictions. In a number of European countries, copying for personal use and giving copies to acquaintances falls under fair use. (We actually pay additional fees/taxes/whatever on all media which can be used for this purpose, adding to the price of CDs/DVDs/printers/hard disks/….)
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At our FLGS, we have a $1 fee, and that's to cover the ink and purchasing of the modules. Our main shop doesn't feel comfortable charging anymore than that because they don't want to make a financial hardship. So as long as you tell your players what it pays for, then most have no problems sharing the cost.
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If you purchase a hardcopy book, you can lend it out to whomever you want, but you may not reproduce it (ie. make a ton of copies and hand them out). If you purchase a digital product, you may make a physical printout of that material for your personal use, and can lend that copy as you see fit just as if it were a printed book you bought off the shelf. At the same time, you may not distribute the digital file yourself.Just FYI, that's not true for all jurisdictions. In a number of European countries, copying for personal use and giving copies to acquaintances falls under fair use. (We actually pay additional fees/taxes/whatever on all media which can be used for this purpose, adding to the price of CDs/DVDs/printers/hard disks/….)
How does that work when the product you are buying is from an American website/company? Since we dont have those extra taxes, etc over here, would that still be covered under your country's fair use policy, or would it revert to ours, since it is a product of our country?
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I don't see a difference between giving a friend a copy of a printed scenario and giving him a PDF of the same scenario. In both cases, you're giving a copy to a single person at a time, and that person is able to further copy it if they wish. In both cases, you carry the risk of your watermark ending up distributed widely if your friend fails to handle his copy responsibly.
I normally never print the whole PDF of a scenario, instead I read it on my tablet. I just print out the faction missions and a number of copies of the chronicle sheet (and I wish those could be distributed electronically too). It seems silly to me to require me to print out a scenario if I want to share it.
The big difference should instead be between personal sharing and mass distribution (bittorrent, printing out tons of copies etc.).
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I don't see a difference between giving a friend a copy of a printed scenario and giving him a PDF of the same scenario. In both cases, you're giving a copy to a single person at a time, and that person is able to further copy it if they wish. In both cases, you carry the risk of your watermark ending up distributed widely if your friend fails to handle his copy responsibly.
Yes, but the former is at least modestly more difficult for your friend to reproduce...he has to go to a photocopier, and make copies. And, even then, he's limited to making hard copies (unless he goes to the trouble of scanning the printed copy).
In the latter case, he can redistribute it as easily as hitting the "forward" button on his e-mail program. And, at that point, he's sending out electronic versions.
So, if you require game organizers to hand out hard copies only, at least it does provide some level of theoretical control over rampant redistribution.
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I don't see a difference between giving a friend a copy of a printed scenario and giving him a PDF of the same scenario.
Technically, you cannot "give" it away, only "loan" it. The expectation is that the printed pdf is the same as any other product you bought. Your friend can use it, but is supposed to give it back to you. If they want their own, permanent copy, they should buy one, or have Paizo drop it into their downloads through one of the approved channels. If you "give" them a printed copy or pdf, you would be violating their IP.
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To play the devil's advocate: Using Mark's post about we can do what we want with our hard copy books. If we make our "one" printout, and then give it to another person. How is that different from me purchasing a hard copy book say...the CRB and giving it to a person permanently. They have no ability to get to a PDF, and as long as I don't make another copy thus violating the terms. I'm not seeing a difference.
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AFAIK, it's still covered by our laws, of course (why should it suddenly work under an entirely different country's laws?). Some people do indeed buy hard drives from abroad to avoid the fee, IIRC.
I dunno lol, I just wasnt sure if it being a foreign product (for you) might complicate the situation.
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You can certainly loan a printed scenario to someone just like you can loan any other printed material. However, because of the nature of pdf files, it is expected that you will get the printed scenario back after use. It is a fine line, but it exists nonetheless. You are not authorized to give others a copy of your watermarked digital file. That would provide free licensed material to someone who has not purchased the license. I suppose it is very similar to music or computer games, but I am admittedly not a professional regarding such things. I just know that you cannot give away digital product.
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If I can play devil's advocate to your devil's advocate: Mark used terms like "lending" and "sharing" to other players, implying (at least to me) that the owner would recover his/her copy of the scenario after the session. The recipient would have the hardcopy for some time, but then relinquish it at the end.
That is how it is different than giving it to another person.
Unless I misunderstood you (which is quite possible).
Um... I'm not sure if I'm misunderstood or not. To further explain, why couldn't I just give my copy that I'm done with away. As long as I retain the PDF and never make another copy because obviously I'm done with it. I don't see how that's different from if I suddenly decided that I'm done with my 2nd printing CRB and have replaced it with a latest (4th?) printing cause I dont' want to deal with erratas.
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Chief Technical Officer
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US copyright law clearly supports lending and/or reselling printed books that you've purchased. It also clearly does not support *copying* a printed book that you've purchased and selling that copy. (Copyright, after all, is about having the right to copy a work.)
Generally, when you "loan" or "give" a PDF away, you do it by making a copy of that file, which you don't have the right to do.
Our policy is that the PDFs you purchase from us are for your personal use only.
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So, to clarify. If I purchase and print out a scenario intending to run it myself. Later, for whatever reason I or my PFS group decides that GM X can run it instead, and instead of having GM X buy his own copy just hand him my printout mostly out of convenience. He runs the scenario, and then for the sake of argument gives it back. This is wrong?
To fully clarify: In no way do I intend to steal from or wrong Paizo. I just want to make sure what I'm doing is appropriate. Because I've done the above thinking I was doing no wrong since I had not given the other GM a PDF that he could then electronically distribute, just the print out I originally made for myself, and only one table/group of players benefited from it's play. Which would as far as I can tell be no different if I had run it myself.
