A lot of the third party have blatant twinkie power fantasy written all over them, like the Artificer or the Mighty Godling. What are your opinions on this one? Too good? More on the balanced side? Its is about as good as our Cleric/Druid/Bard 3/4 BAB 8HD casters? I see them having more in common with it than a rogue, despite the "thief" thing. Yeah, they have a lot of class skills and 6+int, but no Sneak attack or other throwback rogue abilities.
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I cant actually check d20pfsrd from where I am so I am going to assume this is the super genius games time theif (if I am wrong, ignore what I have to say).
This class is quite well balanced. I had one in my last campaign and it worked out rather well. First of all it isn't a caster, not really. It can do some magical things, but it is more along the lines of the monk, who has some 'magical' abilities but uses a source other then spells to power it.
The time theif has motes (more numerous but weaker points to be used for abilities) and avenumes (less frequent but much more significant points to be used to power abilities). Some of these are fairly spell like, one for instance at later levels allows the time theif to become essentially hasted. Another allows the time thief to fire off a powerful ranged touch attack for a big chunk of damage.
Things to keep in mind: This class is more utility and less combat then the rogue. Its focus is far more split then the rogue, so it kinds of ends up in monk territory, if you are not careful how you put together you can end up feeling very underwhelmed with the character. But it is also capable of very considerable 'spike damage/effects' which going 'nova' can be an issue like other classes that are 'point system' heavy (see magus/inquisitor).
Another important point is that while its not a rogue in combat, it can (if you take the talent) get trapfinding, which means it can be the trap monkey in place of a rogue. So it can take on that role in a trap heavy game, or in a group where spotting and disabling traps is an important part of the game. It also has considerable abilities in the social spectrum (charisma based and lots of skills) so it makes for a great all around skilled character.
Well damn. Lost a long post. But Kolo hit the main points.
The closest other class to it is the monk, IMO. Lots of magical abilities. Except they're more utility focused, whereas the monk is defenses and combat focused.
Also, please don't list the artificer with those other classes. It's in a league of its own. Well, sharing that league with the Summoner. I also don't see an issue with the mighty godling other than the shapechanging being a possible issue.
Flagged for the wrong forum.
From my initial perspective, Time Thieves are rogues without tricks or sneak attack, but a BUNCH of things they can do. They're a lot more like rogues than monks and little of magus: they have a loads and loads of class skills and 6+Int ranks per lv. Plus they have prof with all martial weapons.
At first lv they get multi-day uses of a floating bonus to ANY attack roll, skill check, ability check, or saving throw. That makes puts them at Fighter status if they want, better than the rogues at skills, and potentially better than monks or palies at saves. It's 1d4 but only goes up by a die at 8th and 16th. Mostly its awesome for lower level stuff, but its okay, cause they constantly get new and better abilities. At third lv, they start to add it to AC or Dmg too.
They trade tricks for "temporal tricks," with things like magical healing, taking a 10 on anything regardless of conditions of stress or combat, staggering opponent (which denies them full round attacks which is way messed) AND getting attack, damage, and skill bonuses as a cherry on top. She cant sneak attack (the main rogue offensive ability), but starts to be able to haste herself at 5th level. Cleric never get it, wizards suck at combat, and bards dont get it til 7th. OR she can make an opponent within 100+10(lv) ft reroll any single attack roll, damage roll, skill check, or saving throw. OR she can one per day cast d8 per lv damage as a ranged touch with no save.
OR she can rewind time a round. Really. I haven't even gone above 5th lv looking for cheese.
On the other hand they have cool flavor. I won't deny that. Trying really hard to be the Prince, so I that I dig.
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She can match the fighter for 4 attacks a day. Bards are already better than rogues at skills. All of those classes are better without having to spend highly limited resources.
At 3rd level, she can add 1d4 to damage by spending one of her limited motes. Meanwhile, can get an extra 2d6 a theoretically infinite number of times per day.
Bards can get haste at 4th level with Allegro while performing. Summoners just get it flat out at 4th.
Steal Fate requires a touch attack and a fortitude (which negates). The targets it'd be best used against are the ones with strong fortitude saves. To get a good save DC, they'll have to focus on Charisma as well. So there's an element of MAD to it (just like monks!)
Bolt of Time is a one-combat per day thing up until level 9. What's the problem there?
We have a lightly armored high skilled combatant whose main way to contribute is by using up low number of resources. Of course the things they can do by spending those limited resources are going to be powerful. Abilities that require spending resources are going to be more powerful than abilities that just give always on bonuses.
I could go through the same type of hyperbole with the magus and how they can both fight *and* cast spells in the same round! That's crazy. At level 2, they can get two attacks and shocking grasp! How cheesy is that!
Or the alchemist! The alchemist can cast spells, throw powerful AoO bombs, and create a powerful potion that makes them melee beasts.
No, you need to look at the class as a whole. You shouldn't cherry pick the abilities and assume they have all of them.
At level 2, he has 5 points. He could use all of them, and then have absolutely no class features left. Sure, he can make a fighter (aka: someone with a high Fort save) staggered for a round. He'll have to focus on Charisma to make it stick often on the guys who are hurt the most by it.
Compare this to the Magus. He has ~3 first level spells at this level. Probably all shocking grasp. He has ~4 arcane points. He can spend one to get a +1 enhancement bonus to his weapon. So he's already at the level of the fighter, and each time he uses that, it lasts for a minute. With nothing else to spend them on, that's 4 encounters with close to the same attack bonus as the fighter.
Let's say our magus spent a trait on Two-world magic to get Touch of Fatigue. At second level, he has close to the same AB as the fighter. He's getting two attacks and shocking grasp a few rounds per day. And finally, he's almost always getting two attacks from using spell strike and spell combat with Touch of Fatigue, which forces a save or else the enemy is fatigued.
And the alchemist? At 2nd level, with feral mutagen he's looking at 20 minutes of 2 claw attacks and 1 bite attack, ridiculous strength, a nice AC. Oh, and he can just spend an hour to get the mutagen back. And that's not even touching his ~5 AoE bombs that do at a minimum 4 points of damage in the splash, and up to 9 points of damage on a direct hit. Or his three extracts. How cheesy is that? He could even have +1d6 sneak attack instead of bombs, and that never runs out.
No, on a whole, this class is fine. Quite possibly on the weakside since she's only useful with her motes, and those are a limited resource. They can't really contribute on the damage side of things, so they need to be able to do other things to help out.
From my initial perspective, Time Thieves are rogues without tricks or sneak attack, but a BUNCH of things they can do. They're a lot more like rogues than monks and little of magus: they have a loads and loads of class skills and 6+Int ranks per lv. Plus they have prof with all martial weapons.
Keep in mind they will have lots of charisma based abilities, so they aren't going to be loaded down with skills. They still need physical stats for combat, so their int wont be exceptionally high. They definately have good skills, but loads and loads isn't really true.
At first lv they get multi-day uses of a floating bonus to ANY attack roll, skill check, ability check, or saving throw. That makes puts them at Fighter status if they want, better than the rogues at skills, and potentially better than monks or palies at saves. It's 1d4 but only goes up by a die at 8th and 16th. Mostly its awesome for lower level stuff, but its okay, cause they constantly get new and better abilities. At third lv, they start to add it to AC or Dmg too.
On paper it looks dangerous, but in practice, those points run out quick. You can do alot with them but you cant do it all. Like I said the class can nova with the best of them, but if you are following the standard 3-4 encounters per day, they wont be better then rogues at skills or fighters at fighting, they just dont have the resources.
They trade tricks for "temporal tricks," with things like magical healing, taking a 10 on anything regardless of conditions of stress or combat, staggering opponent (which denies them full round attacks which is way messed) AND getting attack, damage, and skill bonuses as a cherry on top. She cant sneak attack (the main rogue offensive ability), but starts to be able to haste herself at 5th level. Cleric never get it, wizards suck at combat, and bards dont get it til 7th. OR she can make an opponent within 100+10(lv) ft reroll any single attack roll, damage roll, skill check, or saving throw. OR she can one per day cast d8 per lv damage as a ranged touch with no save.
The haste is really cool, but remember, haste is only useful if you are already doing damage. The time thief struggles to really get umph behind their hits, so that haste bonus isn't as big as it is on a fighter, or paladin or other heavy hitter. And yes, the time thief is at their best in the buff/debuff role, but that his hardly outrageous, the witch and cleric both do it better, and the wizard does if he tries to. The avenum that hits for d8 per level on a ranged touch IS powerful, extemely limited in its uses. When combined with the time thiefs overall lack of damage potential, it really isnt an issue. Like I said, the time thief can do good spike damage, but spread that over several fights, and the martial characters like the fighter way out shine them.
OR she can rewind time a round. Really. I haven't even gone above 5th lv looking for cheese.
She can only rewind time if she plans ahead. And she has to use the avenume regardless of whether or not she has to rewind time. So sure if you REALLY need to make sure you get over that gap its great, but it is costly, especially if you DONT need to rewind time.
On the other hand they have cool flavor. I won't deny that. Trying really hard to be the Prince, so I that I dig.
On that we agree, my player loves the prince of persia and so he jumped on this class. If you make sure you pay attention to the limitations of the time thiefs ability (the fact that damage bonuses only apply to a single attack, what kind of action each ability is) and resource management, the class works well, and might even be on the weaker side unless heavily optimized. If however you allow your players a 15 minute workday, and never cause them to stretch their resources, this like other point heavy classes (magus, inquisitor etc) aren't right for you.
My intuition - though this could be wrong - is that if anything, the class wants a little for combat ability. I think the easiest comparisons are the bard and the inquisitor, other high-skill, two-good-save, medium BAB classes that rely on limited-use abilities to bring them up to fullish combat ability. I actually thing that Inspire Courage, Judgement/Bane and the basic combat functions of Motes are all pretty comparable; sure, there are obvious pros and cons, but the effect is roughly similar. Bardic music affects everyone, which is a huge benefit, but initially requires the most investment to start up; Motes have the advantage of not getting 'wasted' in rounds where you roll a 2 or would have hit anyway, since you actually get to see the result first, and then can decide to boost it.
All three classes get some benefits to skills, but the bard's are massive, and the bard and inquisitor don't need to spend resources on their skill benefits.
On top of that all, the Inquisitor and Bard are six-level casters with healing spells on their lists. That's a pretty big deal.
I don't think I'd be worried about DMing for a TT.
@Hobgoblin Shogun: I don't know where you get the idea that the Mighty Godling is over powered, we have had all four of the Godlings characters in different games and none of them out shined anyone. The classes played out balanced and fair at every level. I have yet to find any of the Super Genius Games classes to be over powered.
Also the Luckbringer (Rite Publishing) and the Wolfshifter (Wayfinder 5)are also excellent classes. I'm going to give the Rook a run through and would love to have the Guttermage sold as an individual PDF so I can give it a look.
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One things to keep in mind is the time theif is put together correctly wont lack for combat ability. What it does lack, is the ability to do damage. Obviously as a percieved martial class (looks like a rogue monk mix right?) you would think damage is their contribution. But really its debuffing. They can use their motes to do a little extra damage on one hit, OR they can hit their enemy with debuffs. Abilities like steal time are critical to the time theif, and as long as you understand that the time theif can contribute effectively (and even pop off an occassional time-duken with that avenum power). But if you play it like a rogue, with a focus on being a damage dealer, you will be sorely disappointed.
Right...much like the rogue, it lacks a good consistent way to boost to-hit. Most of the other 3/4ths BAB classes have that feature. Bards have inspire courage. Alchemists have mutagen. Inquisitors have their judgements. Monks have Flurry of Blows. etc etc. Unlike the rogue, it doesn't have sneak attack to help make up for that fact.
That's why I consider them a bit on the weakside. They can't really afford to use Power Attack, so their damage will be a bit low. They can't use Arcane Strike to boost it a little bit like the bard can.
Yea, it does. Most of them are balanced too.
I am by no means an expert on third party material and I think the previous posts have pretty well covered the Time Theif.... IF it is single classed.
I started reading the class only got to the first level ability and thought to myself about 10 different ways this would be one of the most amazing dips for other classes (specifically the two pieces I would take issue with on the Mote of Time ability is that they can be spent to add to a die roll AFTER the roll is made, unlike most abilities in Pathfinder that allow additions to a roll, and that the additional swift action can break some of the action economy when combined with other classes that use swift actions for good stuff... wizard 15/time thief 1 could be kicking out 3 spells per turn for instance... for a short time of course).
After reading the class then (note: I have not played it or really done min/maxing to see if it can be broken, so take my advice with a grain of salt), my initial impression is that it is too front loaded with abilities making it too attractive NOT to dip into for many classes.
That said, I haven't seen anything that jumps out at me as game breaking when I think of Time Thief 20 build. (Though I am not fond of the avenum ability that lets you rewind a turn and do it over just from a GM point of view as it would be additional note taking and potentially slow down game play for the other players as this guy gets two turns in a row).
Sean Mahoney
and that the additional swift action can break some of the action economy when combined with other classes that use swift actions for good stuff... wizard 15/time thief 1 could be kicking out 3 spells per turn for instance... for a short time of course).
True, IF the wizard either needs a LOT of feather fall spells, or if he has taken Quicken Spell and are okay with your "extra" spells being 4th or 3rd level tops. With the lower effect and lower save DCs, that's honestly not that effective. And either way, as a 16th level character that's at the cost of one seventh and one eighth level spell per day. Plus as a wizard 16/time thief 1 you don't have 9th level spells, while a wizard 17 does.
I actually had a player take 1 level of time thief to make a wizard 9/time thief 1, to get multiple quickened spells. After a few game sessions, he asked if he could change his mind and be a wizard 10. And extra low-level spell quickened at most 3 days per day just wasn't worth it.
And since a 16th level magus can haste himself, then make 4 attacks and cast 2 spells every round (again, quickened spells and just until he runs out), I'm just not seeing the problem.
(Though I am not fond of the avenum ability that lets you rewind a turn and do it over just from a GM point of view as it would be additional note taking and potentially slow down game play for the other players as this guy gets two turns in a row).
In play, it's no worse than the extra time for a summoner and his eidolon, or a druid and her companion, or any number of pet-based options that can sometimes have players taking 3 or 4 full rounds each round. (Even if a GM runs the pets, it takes time). And it happens much, much less often. And the time thief must announce that one before taking her normal turn, so the GM knows if he needs to take extra notes (and it's just 1 action of notes). And she doesn't get to do it ALL over again, as she's just left with a standard action if she decides to rewind.
I haven't had a player make a time thief yet, but I wouldn't have a problem with any of them doing so. It looks like a very cool but well balanced class.
The book of feats for the 3pp classes that came out, did it feature anything for the time thief?Don't forget Bullet Points: 7 Time Thief & Time Warden Feats, along with the new feats found only in The Genius Guide to the Time War.
One of the Time Thief/Warden feats in the bullet points allows for you to spend a Mote for sneak attack. Which helps a lot I'm picking this one up when my Time Thief hits 5th level.
I was more worried about the ability to act in the surprise round but...there are much stronger classes that do that.
I would point out that by RAW, a caster may only ever cast 2 spells a turn and one must be a quickened spell while the other must be a regular spell. That was probably put in the rules to re-emphasize that a caster only gets one of each action type, but it is spelled out in RAW, no more than 2 spells a turn, ever.
I had no idea! Where is that rule?