Snake Fang feat question


Rules Questions


Just want to throw this out and ask others if my understanding on the matter is accurate.

Snake Fang (the 3rd feat in the Snake Style tree) allows an Attack of Opportunity when a foe's attack misses.
1. This isn't a free AoO, right? Assuming no combat reflexes, if I make use of this one, I am done with AoO for the round? If I have already used an AoO, then I cannot take advantage of an opponents miss?

2. Foe melee attacks only? If some wierd circumstance (of me using the lunge feat on someone who stood 10' away and chucked a dart at me) arose, would that trigger the attack?

3. The immediate action follow-up is not available if another immediate action, or a swift action has already been used this round, correct?


1) Correct
2) It doesn't specify melee, so it is any attack. Note, however, Lunge only applies until the end of your turn, and is therefore rarely usable for AoO.
3)Yes. Note that, between your turns, the immediate action uses up the swift action from you NEXT turn, not the previous one. So you could use a swift action during your turn and an immediate between turns, but then no swift during your coming turn.


Valkir wrote:
1. This isn't a free AoO, right? Assuming no combat reflexes, if I make use of this one, I am done with AoO for the round? If I have already used an AoO, then I cannot take advantage of an opponents miss?

Correct. Though Combat Reflexes is a pre-requisite if you haven't received Snake Fang as a class ability.

Valkir wrote:
2. Foe melee attacks only?

I don't see any reason that would be the case.

Snake Fang (Combat): "While using the Snake Style feat, when an opponent's attack misses you, you can make an unarmed strike against that opponent as an attack of opportunity. If this attack of opportunity hits, you can spend an immediate action to make another unarmed strike against the same opponent."

It doesn't specify melee, just an attack. If a caster attacks you with a ray of frost, and misses, you could take an AoO against them (in addition to any they may have provoked from casting and making a ranged attack) if you threaten them.

Valkir wrote:
If some wierd circumstance (of me using the lunge feat on someone who stood 10' away and chucked a dart at me) arose, would that trigger the attack?

Lunge only increases your reach for your turn, you don't threaten at the larger reach the rest of the time.

If you lunged at someone, and you provoked, and they made an attack against you as an AoO, and they missed, then you could take an AoO against them and the rest of Snake Fang.

Valkir wrote:
3. The immediate action follow-up is not available if another immediate action, or a swift action has already been used this round, correct?

If you've used your immediate action already, then you can't use it again. An immediate action uses your swift action for the next round so it's not really possible to use it unless you've used an immediate action already.


Thank you, Mort and Grick, for the clarification and corroboration. apparently I missed something as overt as a required feat, and something as nuanced as an immediate action's effect on surrounding swift actions.

So I will pick up combat reflexes as my 6th lvl bonus feat; snake sidewind at 7th; and make a decision on snake fang and skill focus (sense motive) for 9th and 11th.

Scarab Sages

So looking a bit closer at the Snake Style feats:

The first can allow you to use a Sense Motive check as your AC for a single attack in a round (assuming you have an immediate action free)

The second gives you the option of taking a 5' step as in immediate action after successfully scoring a crit as an immediate action.

The third gives you the ability to make an AoO on an opponent that missed you, and if you hit you can make a second unarmed strke as an immediate action.

My conclusion is you will never get to use the abilities of the latter feats that require the use of an immediate action as you will be using your Sense Motive check as your AC. Even so, it is no replacement for armour as it can only be used ONCE PER ROUND!

If there is errata released that changes the immediate actions into free actions the feats aren't too bad (but the first may be overpowered), but as they stand the action economy makes the feats rather weak.


Horselord wrote:

So looking a bit closer at the Snake Style feats:

The first can allow you to use a Sense Motive check as your AC for a single attack in a round (assuming you have an immediate action free)

The second gives you the option of taking a 5' step as in immediate action after successfully scoring a crit as an immediate action.

The third gives you the ability to make an AoO on an opponent that missed you, and if you hit you can make a second unarmed strke as an immediate action.

My conclusion is you will never get to use the abilities of the latter feats that require the use of an immediate action as you will be using your Sense Motive check as your AC. Even so, it is no replacement for armour as it can only be used ONCE PER ROUND!

If there is errata released that changes the immediate actions into free actions the feats aren't too bad (but the first may be overpowered), but as they stand the action economy makes the feats rather weak.

If I'm not mistaken, the fact that it's an immediate action means that you can make your Sense Motive check after the enemy has made his attack roll, thus negating an attack that WOULD have hit, but still keep your normal AC if it would have missed already, meaning Snake Fang gives an AoO (and then another hit if that connects) if someone misses your normal AC.


Horselord wrote:

So looking a bit closer at the Snake Style feats:

The first can allow you to use a Sense Motive check as your AC for a single attack in a round (assuming you have an immediate action free)

The second gives you the option of taking a 5' step as in immediate action after successfully scoring a crit as an immediate action.

The third gives you the ability to make an AoO on an opponent that missed you, and if you hit you can make a second unarmed strke as an immediate action.

My conclusion is you will never get to use the abilities of the latter feats that require the use of an immediate action as you will be using your Sense Motive check as your AC. Even so, it is no replacement for armour as it can only be used ONCE PER ROUND!

If there is errata released that changes the immediate actions into free actions the feats aren't too bad (but the first may be overpowered), but as they stand the action economy makes the feats rather weak.

You don't have to be using the Sense-Motive-as-AC ability in order to use Snake Sidewind or Snake Fang; you just have to be in Snake Style. If you want to hang onto all of your immediates/swifts so you can hand out extra retaliatory strikes, you're free to.


Horselord wrote:
The first can allow you to use a Sense Motive check as your AC for a single attack in a round (assuming you have an immediate action free)

Snake Style does three things:

1) +2 bonus on Sense Motive
2) You can deal piercing damage with unarmed strikes
3) you can use an immediate action to use Sense Motive for AC

Horselord wrote:
The second gives you the option of taking a 5' step as in immediate action after successfully scoring a crit as an immediate action.

Snake Sidewind does three things.

1) Bonus on Trip CMD and Acrobatics vs prone.
2) If you crit with an unarmed strike, you can use a Sense Motive check to confirm.
3) If you crit with an unarmed strike, you can also spend an immediate action to take a 5' step.

Horselord wrote:
The third gives you the ability to make an AoO on an opponent that missed you, and if you hit you can make a second unarmed strke as an immediate action.

Snake Fang does two things:

1) When someone misses you, you get to make an AoO (unarmed strike only)
2) If you hit with that AoO, you can use an immediate action to attack them again

Rynjin wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, the fact that it's an immediate action means that you can make your Sense Motive check after the enemy has made his attack roll, thus negating an attack that WOULD have hit, but still keep your normal AC if it would have missed already

"While using the Snake Style feat, when an opponent targets you with a melee or ranged attack, you can spend an immediate action to make a Sense Motive check."

The immediate action happens when the opponent targets you with an attack. It doesn't happen after the results of his attack roll are revealed.


Sorry to continue a dead topic, but you can only perform one immediate action per time-before-turn + next-turn, correct?

So if you have all three Snake Style feats, and you use an immediate action before your turn using Snake Style to roll a sense motive check to dodge an attack, you can't use another immediate action to use Snake Fang (which gives you a free AoO to an opponent who missed you whether or not you use an immediate action) to make a second attack if that first AoO hits. For that matter, you can't use Snake Sidewind to move 5ft either, so you don't get to use the full capacity of these style feats in a single round, correct?


Yes. Either you can use Sense Motive for AC or take a 5-foot step after confirming or make an extra attack after hitting on an AoO vs someone who missed you.


You might consider using Combat Patrol to increase your threatened area so you can attack people who miss you with spells or ranged attacks.

I'd be interested in hearing what everyone thinks about combining Sidestep with this vs an opponent with reach. Can you use you immediate action with sidestep to close with your opponent after he misses you and before you take you opportunity attack, or since you were not in melee range (for you) when the opponent missed, would you not get an opportunity attack?

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