This one is for a one-off duel with another PC.
25 point buy.
Society rules HP advancement.
Core Races Only
No leadership feat cohorts or hired NPCs.
Constructs, creations, simulacra and summoned monsters are permitted.
No 3rd Party Material.
No deific interference (apart from powers/spells granted to divine characters.
Terrain/battlefield will be constructed by the referee.
Anything that can be purchased according to Paizo rules may be used to equip and/or prepare the character.
Characters will be placed randomly. Any gear/ creatures, vehicles/ buildings that the character has purchased, manufactured, or summoned, that cannot be held on his person will also be placed randomly, with the exception of mounted creatures.
Characters may prepare spells/extracts ahead of time, but no casting or item activation until the queue period.
Characters will each be permitted the same amount of queue prep time, equal to 1d4+1 rounds, to be determined on the day of battle.
Players may "tap out" and resign the contest at any time, regardless of turn. Characters forced to resign against their will does not end the contest.
Characters must begin on the battlefield. Characters who vacate the battlefield for more than 2 consecutive rounds are considered resigned.
Characters may have up to 2 traits and up to 2 flaws.
In the aftermath of my last, rather epic duel, the DM's teenage son has challenged me to one of his own. I've assured him he'll lose, but he wants the fight anyway. Never one to back off of a fight, I've agreed. This time, though, instead of a wizard/alchemist duel, I've proposed that neither of us know our opponent's class until the day of the battle. Also, that multiclassing is okay.
Since the kid isn't quite as savvy as his pop (whom I crushed in under 7 rounds), I'm going to get a little experimental with this one, and multiclass two classes and a race I've never played. DM rolled 2d10 for level and got a 14. So-
Gnome Paladin 7/Summoner 7 (Female)
Str 8/12 (-2 race)
1 Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot
Which leaves me almost 10 grand to spend on 3rd level Summoner Scrolls.
For Eidelon, I was thinking something like a two-headed Griffin.
1 Feather Fall, Life Conduit, Grease, Magic Fang, Mage Armor
Scrolls: Dimensional Anchor, Stoneskin, Greater Evolution Surge, Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice
1 Hero's Defiance, Liberating Command, Grace
Scroll: Saddle Surge
Experienced Summoners will notice that the Eidelon's attack numbers are going to be waaaaaay lower than the Paladins, and may be wondering why I'm putting everything into his attacks rather than AC. It's because I can't justify putting everything into the longbow; one well-place Wind Wall could effectively negate my offensive capability. Seven of each seems just about right; the Paladin's 8th level aura is made defunct due to the Eidelon's abilities, and Summoner levels 5-7 all add to the Paladin's BAB. Plus, I'll probably be pretty good at healing the critter.
I could use advice about the 13th level feat, and about what Achilles Heels I could be missing - the biggest one I see right now is Eidelon Saving throws, which is only partially mitigated by Paladin's Sacrifice. Of course, that's assuming my opponent knows that I'm only half Summoner, which will be tough.
Going 7/7 is a bad split. And going many levels of paladin against someone who probably won't be evil is a poor choice as well. 2 paladin / 12 summoner (synthesist) would be much better. Also, gnome is a pretty poor choice for the current build as well. And eidolons can not take extra evolution, they don't have the "eidolon" class feature, only summoners can take it.
Drop arcane armor training / mastery. Dump wisdom / intelligence. Get strength, lots of strength. Get precise shot and deadly aim and (if you meet the prerequesites) point blank master, improved initiative, and toughness. Take at least one crafting feat and spell craft as your favored class skill. Take flaws if you need to. Your casting level is too low to reliably dispel anything he brings if he's a caster, take greater evolution surge (for large size) instead (or black tentacles).
Your eidolon should definitely take iron will, quadruped will saves are abysmal. Consider giving it owl's wisdom and bull's strength. I don't think it can take claws again, quadrupeds are only allowed 1 set of claws. Extra head probably isn't worth it.
If he's going to be a synthesist there is no reason to dump wisdom for strength.
Note where I put "In general" and "this build." Things I said in the "this build" don't apply to other builds, like, say, synthesist builds. I did that so I could steer him towards a better build while still supplying useful information if this is the build he wishes to run.
I think paladin 2/summoner 12 (synthesist) is also a much better split. You could take the paladin archetype divine hunter to grab a bonus feat as well.
If you go synthesist, your stats could go
Str 5, Dex 7, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 22 (19 +3 levels)
A quadruped eidolon suit will wreck some face (although if you're going archery you had might as well go bipedal), and with a headband of charisma +4 you'll have an extra +8 to all saves.
For evolutions, both Blindsight and Spell Resistance will probably be useful, albeit expensive. You could also give yourself up to DR 10/(alignment).
Um.... huh. Well, it's something to think about. Unfortunately the big drawback I can see at first glance is that the BAB seems to take a 3 point hit compared to my build, since you have to use the Eidelon's BAB. The Dex bonus is only +5 at that level, and a biped starts with a Dex of 12.
Have you included the ability to increase your Eidolon's dexterity score by up to 6 (not as an enhancement bonus either) for 2 evolution points per 2?
I do think the eidolon has a much bigger advantage in natural attacks. Your one major advantage will be evolution surging to meet just about any threat, as well as a ridiculous amount of hit points.
Also, did you mean to post with your pseudonym?
Personally I'd go 2 pally / 12 summoner if you have to dual class.
For the caster take your gnome, and max out con and dex. (1/2 elf would get more evo points though) Enough charisma to get some bonus spells...
Eidolon build: Quadraped
The silence stones you're carrying should nerf most casting and you can heal the eidolon in combat with silent spells and renew the invisibility on an ongoing basis with a spell or a wand(if he DM lets you). (All while remaining invisible and silent so you can't be targetted.)
Diehard and endurance will let you funnel your HP into the eidolon and stay up... and lastly if the eidolon falls, you just have to drop a quickened summon eidolon for one that's relatively fresh at 1/2 hit points.
And if you're out of those summoned monsters out the yin yang with your spell like ability (while you're invisible.)
Ok, Mergy, I'm intrigued enough by the idea that I'm going to work up a full build based on it. Get back to you.
I was trying to think of how high a character's saves were likely to be.
Assuming a +4 charisma item, you should have Cha 26, so a +8. You use the summoner's saves not the Eidolons, so a good Will save and a poor Fort and Reflex, while the Paladin brings a +3 to Fort and Will. If we use the 16 Wisdom that I offered, that's +3 from Wisdom, +3 from paladin, +8 from summoner, +8 from Charisma: +22 to Will saves before a cloak of resistance factors in.
Fortitude, assuming a small investment in Constitution (let's say one stat boost in and a +2 item or evolution): +3 from Con, +3 from paladin, +4 from summoner and +8 from Charisma is still a ridiculous +18 to Fortitude saves.
Reflex should be the lowest of the bunch, (although we can increase Dexterity a bit: 19 Dex to start +1 point of stat and let's say a +2 stat item or evolution for 22) is +6 from Dex, +0 from paladin, +4 from summoner and +8 from Charisma: another +18 actually.
This might be one of those times where you forego the cloak of resistance for one of displacement instead.
EDIT: Forgot about the +2 circumstance bonus. Fort +20, Ref +20, Will +24.
Also, the Eidolon has Evasion. What the hell.
Mister E, what it says in the synthesist page is all that the summoner gets. Since it does not say he uses the eidolon's saves, he does not; he uses his own. He does use the eidolon's BAB, and uses his own mental scores while using the eidolon's physical scores.
Be aware that you're unable to take the extra evolution feat as a synthesist, by RAW.
I would also recommend making sure that your constitution as the base summoner stays *higher* than the eidolon. That way, if the suit is for some reason removed (banished, killed, etc.), you actually gain health, and will have enough time to summon your eidolon again. You'll definitely want some defence against banishment.
Also, does an Eidelon's BAB stack with non-Summoner levels? One would think so, since the reverse means that a Fighter 5/ Synthesist 1 has a synthetic BAB of 1.
It has been clarified that your BAB from other classes stacks with the BAB of the Eidolon, but don't ask me where.
Bull's strength and greater evolution surge will be great spells. And by level 12 its virtually impossible not to have an amazing Eidolon, no matter what direction its taken. (Though be warned, matching an eidolon up against a CAGM babarian will be rough, reach ftw.)
I think gigantic would be better against the barbarian than the DR. Reach means not being hit by CAGM which is far better virtual damage reduction than the real DR. However, if he's going with an archer build (as it seems from his dexterity of 30, it may not be optimal.
It has been clarified.
Also, don't forget that your saves go up by +4 extra for being a Synth 12
I'd go half elf for extra evolution points and 2 extra hp. Take a lesser wand of quicken in your items to maximize those buff rounds.
Feats should be unarmed strike, Dragon Strike, Blindfighting, Improved Grapple, Greater Improved Grapple
So with magic items, for 13K for a +3 cloak and a cracked ioun stone, all of your saves should be +16 (+8 Pally +4 synth +4 items). I'd go ahead and dump con to use your Eidilon's (while I don't do this in PFS, in game it is better). Go with Chr 20, Int and Wis 14 and 16, all physical 7
You'll end up (Quadraped):
With 2 rounds, round 1 you can cast Greater Evolution Surge and Begin Enlarge Round
Maulinate; Lantern Archons can eat DR and such, and fire at a rapid rate. Basted you should be able to catch anyone in any arena, and your AC should be unhittable if he is a fighting type.
Yay Synths! :).
Thalin, I disagree with you on several of your points.
First, do NOT dump Con. Dump your other two stats, but you don't want to drop to negative HP because your eidolon was banished. You don't want to die outright because your eidolon gets killed. Yes, you use your eidolon's score while fused, but if your eidolon leaves you for any reason, you do not want to be stuck with 14hp.
There is also no reason to take unarmed strike when you can grow claws. There is no reason to take improved and greater grapple when you can just get the grab evolution. There is no reason to wear a cloak of resistance when your saves will be 20+ without the cloak.
I would also take the blindsense and blindsight evolution before I took the blindfight feat. Save your feats for stuff the evolutions can't do, like Power Attack, Quick Spell, etc.
I agree with you Mergy; in most games. In a 1-on-1 dual with characters made for dials both sides should be able to detect invisible etc; there's no chance he's going to get his Eidilon re-summoned if dismissed. His defense is simply to make this only happen 5% of the time (will save insane); and ideally close quickly before they can cast it. And there's always reason... the DCs of a concentrated Mage will be 29 or so (7 level, +2 concentration, 30 casting stat). So you want to still save out on a 4 or 5. Improved / Greater Grapple adds to your grab DC when you grab, so they're still quite good; necessary vs fighter-type opponents. But the feats are mostly useless, 3 extra evolution points, some pounce improvements, Power Attack should not be used (the extra 6 damage will not be worth the -3 to hit.
Trait: Magical Lineage (Summon Eidolon)
Feat: Quicken Spell
That would make it a fourth level spell, and he's likely to have 5-6 of those per day.
I would also nearly always use Power Attack, because when you're rolling as many attacks as you're able to the damage beats out the minus to hit.
I think spell resistance would also be very helpful for this fight. A 14th level elf wizard with both spell penetration feats will be able to pull off a +20 on their roll, which still gives them a 10% chance of failure. If they don't put all of those abilities in (more likely), they're likely to have only +16 or so, for a 30% chance of failure.
Though going through the "saves are good enough", you could do this:
Dwarf Summoner 13 / Monk 1 (Master of Manuevers)
Str: 7 (Int: 7 Wis: 24 Dex: 7 Con: 16 Chr: 16
This allows you 5th level spells, +7 to AC, and far more of a save bonus (especially with Steely Soul). It also gives you access to Dragon Strike, and most importantly, size Huge (Gargantuan after Enlarge Person). Strength goes 38 or so, AC should bat around 50 ( and did I mention you get a 5th level spell? :).
AC: 12 + 2 (Dex) + 7 (Wis) +5 (Size Natural) +6 (evo Natural) +8 (spells) +10 (level evos) = 50 + magic items
Saves +2 monk +4 (dwarf) +4 (summoner) +4 (Eidilon shield) +4 magic items = +18. +4 extra summoner on will, +7 will = +29 Will, +24 fort, +21 Ref. Should be plenty :). Did I mention you're gargantuan (drools)
Well, charisma hit doesn't hurt badly (you can still cast, and you're generally not going for save-or-dies). The Dwarf just has the best "carryover" ability to get saves high. And Huge makes a difference of 8 extra Str, 42 hp, and with enlarge makes extra damage. The gnome gives you a Cha bonus, more useful if you're casting against opponents (or not switching to monk and staying pally). If I wanted the Cha bonus I'd go half-elf for the evo bonus, but I think you can get the saves the OP wanted with 5th level spells and size and more damage output with the dwarven huge-monster of doom.
Okay, build is pretty much hammered out.
Champion Superheroine Build:
LG Female Paladin 2/Summoner 12
4 (5/day)- Wall of Stone, Dismissal, Greater Evolution Surge, Teleport
Eidelon - Serpentine Form
AC: 41 (42 w/Haste, 46 w/Haste + Mage Armor)
Haste will certainly be done pre-fight, so her flight speed will be 50. Against something within 30', she's rocking a +24/+24/+24/+19/+14 with her bow, to the tune of 2d8+10 if the first hit, and d8+5 on subsequent hits. Against something evil, like a summoned demon, add an extra 8 to both (but only 1 critter per this duel).
Cash is awfully tight. I'm considering knocking the bow down to +1 and buying a scroll of Stoneskin to free up the slot for Rejuvenate Eidelon, maybe a scroll of Blur, some adventuring gear, and some magic arrows. Also I can restore the third strength point of the compound bow. And since that'll be ten grand, maybe I can put an extra stone on that ring of delayed doom.
Oops - I guess I'll have to do that because I didn't buy ANY arrows, or a quiver to hold them. Back to the drawing board.
Ok, gang - find the weak spots. Where does this character fail? Saves seems covered, Touch AC is good, but not great for her level, especially vs True Strike or an Alchemist on speed, attack bonus is good, no one hides from Echolocation, and anybody who tries will meet the swarm of bats I send after them. If opponent is a blaster who throws out major damage spells that ignore evasion and get through SR, I have a total of 290 HP to play with. She can also heal herself (Summoner) for d6 HP as a swift action from lay on hands up to 9 times. May not seem like much, but that's 9d6 of pure healing (not transferring) that can be done during full round actions to fill up the base. Ring of Freedom keeps me free from Grapple Kings and control magic like Web or a quickened Slow.
If opponent is AM Barbarian, hopefully I'll win initiative. Also, no Synthesist Mount allowed by the rules of this engagement.
Quickened Slow. Hrrm...
It looks pretty good. The saves are ridiculous, and the AC is pretty top notch. A few questions:
That agile rapier looks awfully expensive. Aren't agile weapons only 8k?
How are you going to summon a swarm of bats while in eidolon form?
Pure cheese, but could you make yourself old for -3 to gnome physical scores +2 to mental scores? Every buff to that charisma score helps!
I don't think Combat Casting is necessary for this; if you're worried about your touch AC Dodge would help more, and there's nothing wrong with Improved Initiative or Weapon Focus. There's also Deadly Aim, which would give you a lot more punch.
Looking at your AC, I can only get up to 39: +14 natural armour, +4 shield bonus, +11 from dexterity. Is there a +2 I'm forgetting to count?
I have 8k for the rapier, just marked down ring price somehow. Total is still right.
Summon Minor Monster. The Spell, not the SLA. Technically not a spell, but 1d3 or somesuch tiny creatures. This is purely to find an invisible, mind blanket opponent, since that fools Detect Evil. Also what Echolocation Spell on the bow is for. The tinies are just to increase my range, if necessary. In an actual adventuring day, they'd be good at finding traps, too.
Deadly Aim vs Combat Casting - I guess my thought was that I might find myself adjacent to a hulked-up, anti-casty Barbarian with Step-Up. Or a disruptive Teleport Tactitian Fighter with same, and needed the bonus to DimDoor or Teleport out of there. The Ring, at least, keeps me clear of Grapple Town. I'll consider it; Deadly Aim could come in handy putting down some giant monster with relatively low AC.
Improved Initiative on top of +11? Can't justify it.
Old? Nah, can't spare the Con. If the wizard makes his Knowledge Planes check after filling up my ring with hugeola save-or-dies, SuperBabe might end up banished or dismissed and leave Regular Babe relatively naked, and in dire need of HP when the Dire Lions come closing in. And since it's a duel, Regular Babe (actually, tiny Babe) can't diplomacize her way out of this.
I'm reading through this, trying to get a sense of the synthesist since the rules surrounding it can be so very confusing...
How does the character qualify for the Rapid Shot / Manyshot feats with a 9 Dexterity? Does the Belt artificially inflates him to 13, but I was under the impression that didn't count towards prereq's - if he takes the belt off does he suddenly somehow lose all of the feats it qualifies him for + all of the feats those feats qualify him for?
Also, under the Synthesist entry it says while fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear. Normally armor and natural armor stack - is there any reason not to wear armor other than a chance at spell failure?
I'm looking to make a bow-weilding Gnome Anti-Paladin/Synthesist as a recurring villian my party has to deal with, an enforcer and assassin for a major power they've offended.
Prereqs - interesting question. Worth it's own rules thread, I'd say.
Armor - I thought about getting some, but the Eidelon description says it interferes with the link, figured it was the same for armor inside of them. Plus there's spell failure, which I could do without.
Assassin - don't use my build as a blueprint, friend. Your party will hate you.
You don't have to worry about prerequisites, because you can use the eidolon's stats as the feat prerequisites. Any bonus that lasts for over 24 hours can qualify, and you can definitely wear your eidolon suit for 24 hours at a time need be.
And yes, the big risk here is banishment; I don't think, however, that it's the type of spell a wizard would typically worry about boosting with feats, etc. If you really want to be ridiculous, Iron Will is pretty ridiculous overkill.
I don't understand alter self. Might you not replace it with invisibility, or even see invisibility, and then not have to worry about echolocation (saving you a lot of cash at the same time)?
I don't have a link right here, but prereqs are supposed to be ok with either a belt or other magical item after 24 hours has passed (making it a permanent bonus) - and the same logic then goes for eidolon (after having it "on" for 24 hours). If you loose the prereqs, you don't loose the feat, you just can't use it at that moment in time.
Armor is clarified in the FAQ - you cannot wear armor as a synthesist, since the eidolon kind of _is_ the armor.
pally 2/synthesist x would be the way to go. charisma becomes your uberstat for saves and casting, and the Eidolon provides what you can't get via charisma. imo i would go half-elf for the extra evo points. If you want to really tear his face off go bipedal, take rending and then take the feat that halves the number of hits needed for rending to work. it wil water down to every hit = two attacks using full BAB on top of which you factor in manufactured weapons. add in dimensional dervish and it's friends so you can full attack and dimension door in the same round and you can most likely one-round him without taking a scratch. Power attack would be the only one i'd bother sinking in afterwards since you clearly have enough attack power. if you got the points take flight. Extra Evo is a good feat if you run short on evo points.
Well then you would know he's got an archery build paladin 2/synthesist 12 right there. You would also know that synthesists are unable to take Extra Evolution, and that he's picked a gnome.
I'm pretty sure you have not read the thread or you wouldn't have posted most of that.
The ability to Swift heal is nice too.
A trick I've always liked with Eddy's (though mine is on a standard Summoner) is to be Large and take the Push evolution on my claws. Then Combat Reflexes and Standstill. Medium non-Reach weapon melee guys never get within striking range. Talk about pi$$ off a Barbarian...
Kk. My post is my opinion on how to build an optimized attack pally/synthesist. I consider providing my opinion and how I would do something as a valid contribution to a thread. I am aware of his post and am just providing another angle to look at it ^_^ let him read it and take what he will from it. I just provide my humble opinions and thoughts to the discussion. he already has a good understanding of what he wants and as for technicalities . . . well that's what you're here for Mergy ^_^
@Wiggz: Good point. I overlooked that part ^_^
EDIT'd: you try posting a reply via I-pod XD auto-correct is annoying
Rereading my posts, I don't think I've had enough caffeine this morning. I'm sorry, I was pretty rude.
Lol it's alright. We all end up there sooner or later. To be fair I was under the impression they faq'd the Extra Evolutions feat to work with the synthesist (shows what i know XD). My apologies if i was a bit trite on my end. No hard feelings, right?
Alright, now to the duel! How I would play this out would be to go Zen Archer. It's a fun class that i've been looking at for a long time and i personally wouldn't enjoy going against a kid with a fully optimized character (personal taste). It you were going against a munchkin it'd be different, but from all appearances you're not.
Now how to play the Monk: I would be passive aggressive. Simply ready an action to stop spellcasting if he tries to cast wind-wall and shoot him if he does. Eventually he'll get the idea and either a) stop trying to cast spells (since you can lose spells this way last i checked) or b) run out of spells to cast.
If this fails, i would have an artifact of antimagic or a wand of dispel or something of the like, just in case he does get an arrow-nerf ability off. Afterwards you can grapple him (monk beats casty in grapples typically) and just slowly punch his senses back into him.
if he ends up playing a non-caster or something just utilize your superior movement and arrows to bring him down. If he's a charger get somewhere he can't charge. If he's AM BARBARIAN then I'd question the diabolic focus of the kid you're up against.
EDIT'd for relevance
Anyway, I notice the spell improved life conduit, which I don't understand the use of. That eidolon's hit points and yours are constantly linked, and if your eidolon is about to die you can sacrifice your hit points to save it anyway. The spell seems superfluous for a synthesist. Other possibilities include greater invisibility, black tentacles, heroism, and displacement. Unless you know something I don't know about special uses of improved life conduit.
Say he's playing a dedicated blaster, which is somewhat likely, or has a bunch of summoned monsters tearing me up. I'm not going to want to wait until all those Eidelon HP are burned up to start healing them. This way I can transfer 2d6 and then heal 1d6 of those as a Lay On Hands, and still keep action free for control spells or full attacks. If things get really serious, it's time for a Rejuvenate Heal, but in the meantime alternating Swift Actions can prevent a death by a thousand cuts.
Also handy against a horde of 7th level Alchemist Simulacra, which was my tactic in the last duel.
Heh. Believe it or not, it's for RP purposes, so she can appear to be something other than a 3' cutie or a scaly half-monster/ half-woman.
The character has grown beyond duel fodder to a kind of epic fantasy "Rudy" (and no, not Sam Gamgee). I'd like to have a duel-crushing machine that can also go out adventuring.
Anyway, I won't have time for another buff. And there's no way I'll have the time to cast even half of those spells - why not stick something in that fits the face part of such a high Cha build?