Mathwei - Provided I don't take any feats for it, I can swap it out at any point in time.
I strongly disagree on the Falcata being a horrible weapon in general. I'm having a fun time with my Falcata-using fighter, though its primary benefit (19-20/3x) does not help the Magus.
I see the Magus as a more combat-centric support-caster and utility caster, for the most part. I've also not played one, and kind of have a thing for mix-and-match stereotypes. :)
I don't feel maximizing DPR is essential for PFS-play. Flexibility is VASTLY more important, and maximizing DPR turns into a case where you render entire modules boring for everyone else at the table...or trigger an arms race where developers have to assume a higher level of optimization and crunch on the part of players, which weeds out both casual players and "interestingly suboptimal" builds.
My Falcata-fighter has Persuasion, not Power Attack, for instance - and I don't anticipate him taking Power Attack for his PFS career. By the standards of "DPS Ist King!" he's a failure. By the standards of "He's fun, he doesn't drag the party down, he contributes in interesting ways..." he's a great success.
Right, I get the smaller crit range. it's that x3 coupled with the 19-20 that just makes me smile. So, for yucks, let's say that I went with EWP Katana. Would that be less ridiculous? Really, quite a bit of what I've seen here is talk of lack of versatility. Sure, after the first couple of levels, why bother raging when I can spam an arcane mark spellstrike, or something equally cheesy. Quel frommage!
But on those occasions where I've run out of decent damage dealers (read: shocking grasp), and I only get to make a single attack (have to move, been slowed, etc.), I still have the option bust some balls. Also, I'm trading the ability to significantly improve my chances of dropping foes quickly, and not being pushed into a corner at low levels, for a -1 attack, damage and AC for 2 rounds. It really doesn't sound that bad to me. Especially when you consider the option of combat maneuvers. at that point, I'll gladly take all the strength that I can get. Especially if I've quaffed an Enlarge Person potion in the last 10 rounds.
Also, what's that about Walter's post? Are you referring to the Magus guide a la Treantmonk cum Rogue Eidolon? If that's the case, I think that after the first 850 posts, I'm really not that worried about it.
Of course, I could be taking all of this the wrong way, and only think that I know what I'm talking about. I have been wrong before.
Alright, got more questions.
Assume I'm going with the 4 Magus, 1 witch, then 1 more Magus for question standpoints...
For the Hair, Prenhensile makes it a reach secondary natural attack for 5 total minutes. White makes it a standard primary natual attack with a free grapple but no duration and doesn't count as an limb. If I'm not getting two seperate natural hair attacks I'm gettting one... Permanent limb? Reach Primary natural attack with a free grapple attempt?
At level 6... I can
Spell Combat with -2 Spell, -2 Melee Weapon, -2?-5?-7? Hair (trip attempt)
Would multi-weapon fighting help this out at all? Cause if I'm reading this right I can remove the penalty from Spell Combat entirely. Though if my hair limb isn't permanent I suppose I can't take this feat unless I acquired it from a different source... if true would it then still apply?
Also... still sketchy. If/when Prehensile hair is my only natural attack does it become a primary anyway? Or was I right the first time and I still take the -5 .5str(int) penalty of a secondary natural attack.
....another hair question. If my hair is grappling something... can I still make attacks against other enemies? If i'm not considered to be grappling while I'm invoking the grappled condition it seems strange but legit.
@galahad2112, the x3 multiplier is only for the weapon. any spell used is limited to a x2 so not only are you making it less likely you crit you are wasting that x3 multiplier.
And you said it yourself right there why bother raging when you can spam arcane mark, brand or touch of fatigue. You are advocating nerfing your character for no gain anywhere else.
Fine if that's what YOU want to do the OP wasn't asking for that kind of help.
@AdAstraGames, the magus is a striker class with extra (but limited) OOC flexibility (check the spell list, EVERYTHING there is combat oriented). As for the Falcata you will see that I specified how it was a bad weapon for the Magus.
And as I said to galahad, the OP didn't ask for any of that kind of interpretation. Answer the questions that are asked not how you FEEL about the way they choose to play their character.
Magnus, first things first.
The White witch archetype permanently activates your hair as a primary natural attack, it is not prehensile and the only thing you can do with it is attack & grapple.
If you only use your hair to attack that round without using a weapon it is a primary attack that does 1d4+int mod + 1.5x strength mod on damage.
If you use your sword at the same time the hair becomes a secondary attack (-5 to hit and 1D4+int mod +.5 str mod in damage).
If you spell combat as well ALL attacks you make that round get an additional -2 to hit on top of all existing penalties.
Second, you can't take multi-weapon or multi-attack in PFS so don't think about them.
If you decide to take Prehensile hair as a hex (from your hexcrafter levels) then it does NOT give you any more attacks it just changes your normal hair attack to a secondary but lets you use your int bonus in place of your strength and lets you use your hair as a third hand.
Prehensile hair is a hex you DON'T need to take unless you need a third hand (you really don't with this build).
As for attacking while your hair is grappling, that's the point of this build. Your hair does a free grapple and you full attack with your weapon. Enjoy it.
OK, here's the Generic DPR Magus. It will be like everyone else's Magus. Except it will have pretty long hair, be a half elf and use a Katana. No, wait...
Half-Elf with a Katana as their heirloom weapon.
STR 16, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 14+2, WIS 12, CHA 7
Feat: Weapon Focus: Katana
Traits: Anatomist (+1 on Crit Confirm rolls), Magical Lineage [Shocking Grasp]
You effectively fight at +4 to hit, +5 burning an Arcane Pool point to buzz up your weapon. You hit for a base damage of 1d8+3, and starting around 4th level, you never, ever run out of Shocking Grasp spells. You hit
At 3rd level, you take Arcane Strike.
At 5th level, you take Intensify Spell, and use your Arcane Pool to make your Scimitar keen at need.
At 11th level, you take Weapon Spec: Katana.
Learn True Strike early on.
Mathwei: You are offering an interpretation of how a Magus works, just as I am. I'm trying to sound out options that don't turn his character into, gee, a clone of half the Magi I've seen at tables.
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2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
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Where I'm getting confused is the implication that White Hair Witch and Prehensile Hair Hex will alter your hair together. To me it reads that they both do separate things except for allow you to use your hair in different ways. I'm not sure Paizo intended them to be used together for benefit, and would like to hear their thoughts.
Edit: Also nowhere does it say that Prehensile hair can use Int for attack. It can manipulate things as if it had a strength score equal to int (lifting objects, opening a stuck door, etc).
Mathwei ap Niall wrote: Magnus, first things first.
The White witch archetype permanently activates your hair as a primary natural attack, it is not prehensile and the only thing you can do with it is attack & grapple.
If you only use your hair to attack that round without using a weapon it is a primary attack that does 1d4+int mod + 1.5x strength mod on damage.
If you use your sword at the same time the hair becomes a secondary attack (-5 to hit and 1D4+int mod +.5 str mod in damage).
If you spell combat as well ALL attacks you make that round get an additional -2 to hit on top of all existing penalties.
Second, you can't take multi-weapon or multi-attack in PFS so don't think about them.
If you decide to take Prehensile hair as a hex (from your hexcrafter levels) then it does NOT give you any more attacks it just changes your normal hair attack to a secondary but lets you use your int bonus in place of your strength and lets you use your hair as a third hand.
Prehensile hair is a hex you DON'T need to take unless you need a third hand (you really don't with this build).
As for attacking while your hair is grappling, that's the point of this build. Your hair does a free grapple and you full attack with your weapon. Enjoy it.
Oh... I will enjoy it.
But I should rephrase my quesiton on hair grappling and attacks. I meant more attacks with my hair while my hair is grappling something else.
I suppose this could end up to me grappling more than one enemy at a time if my hope is correct.
dunebugg wrote: Where I'm getting confused is the implication that White Hair Witch and Prehensile Hair Hex will alter your hair together. To me it reads that they both do separate things except for allow you to use your hair in different ways. I'm not sure Paizo intended them to be used together for benefit, and would like to hear their thoughts.
Edit: Also nowhere does it say that Prehensile hair can use Int for attack. It can manipulate things as if it had a strength score equal to int (lifting objects, opening a stuck door, etc).
You are correct that these 2 abilities where not intended to be used together (that's why the White hair had to give up the hex ability to get this) but they neglected to think about hexcrafter giving access to all hexes.
As for the Int question you are adding text that does not exist anywhere in the power description.
prehensile hair wrote: and can manipulate her hair as if it were a limb with a Strength score equal to her Intelligence score. Her hair has reach 10 feet, and she can use it as a secondary natural attack that deals 1d3 points of damage (1d2 for a Small witch). Your hair is a limb that has a strength score equal to your Int score and functions as a natural attack. Your strength score is used to hit and do damage ergo your Int is used to hit and damage.
The only difference is invoking the hex lets you use it as a hand, the white hair can't do that.
@magnus, No you can't. Natural attacks only get 1 attack per round (no matter what your Bab says) by default, but using spell combat/touch spells you can get 2. HOWEVER you only have 1 hair appendage so you have to let go of what you're grappling to to get the other hit.
AdAstraGames wrote:
For feats, I'd take Magical Lineage [Shocking Grasp] and likely Reach Spell. At 5th, I'd take Intensify Spell.
Magical lineage is merely a trait rather than a feat (although it feels like a feat).
I would strongly suggest heighten spell as a prereq for preferred spell.. that way you can spontaneously convert to shocking grasps whatever you wish... seeing as it (or the acid touch spell) is going to be your go to spell it seems reasonable.
If you make it to 15th then Spell Perfection together with quicken on it will be essential for keeping up with the fighters of the world.
The extra damage 'lost' via a lower crit range is around .35/level without keen (maxing at 3.5).. or as much as 7 damage with keen (10.5 empowered).. for that you're picking up 2damage on each swing (before enlarge and 4.5 damage after it) so it's not really that horrible a thing... of course by 15th that looks closer to 16.5 damage/round lost but c'est la vie.
Honestly if you wish to complain about the DPR the 16 starting attacking stat is more telling.
But some of this really depends on whether you want the consistent damage or the really spikey damage. Since combat favors the PCs it's better if you are a PC to have consistent damage (reverse if you are an NPC but want to win). It's the early game argument for a greatsword over a falchion.
-James
Needing the hand isn't such a big deal. Guess I'm taking Prehensile for the reach at this point?
Ok... so whats the best way to do this?
Hair attack trip attempt first at -7 as a spellstrike.
5-step in
Hair -7 and Weapon -2
Or reverse if already adjacent:
Hair -7 and Weapon -2
5-step out
Hair -7 spell strike
That seem about right? Any way to alleviate the massive -5 pentaly other than getting lucky on the first hit?
And where did that reposition come in for flanking?
@Mathwei ap Niall
How exactly can I be "wasting" a 3x multiplier? I'll almost certainly be enlarged, and have a pretty beefy Str, say, 20 for nice round numbers,
So, 2d6+5 (more for power att, but you get the idea) becomes 6d6+15...that sounds like 4d6+10 extra to me, which I'm pretty sure is better than 5d6... Also, when I do crit, the spell will still be doubled, so what's not to like? Like has been previously suggested, IF the falcata just isn't good enough, the Katana has the same maxed out crit range, and regularly deals an extra d6 per attack over a Dervish.
I'm pretty sure that the thread is listed as "New PFS Magus - advice and help welcome :)", so isn't that what we've been doing? offering advice and help?
You are right, however, that we should try to answer the questions asked. The real question becomes, "why do you want to play a magus?" It sounds like Magnus Arcanis, the OP, is most interested in the biggest baddest amount of nasty status effects at one time, right? Of course, my favorite nasty status to inflict is death, but I guess that we'll just skip that one for now... ;P
So as far as the prehensile hair vs white hair witch goes, a male witch couldn't just have the regularly unruly hair of a white hair witch, and then cause his beard or moustache to grow with prehensile?
And either way, could the prehensile hair hold a shield?
Magnus Arcanis wrote: Needing the hand isn't such a big deal. Guess I'm taking Prehensile for the reach at this point?
Ok... so whats the best way to do this?
Hair attack trip attempt first at -7 as a spellstrike.
5-step in
Hair -7 and Weapon -2
Or reverse if already adjacent:
Hair -7 and Weapon -2
5-step out
Hair -7 spell strike
That seem about right? Any way to alleviate the massive -5 pentaly other than getting lucky on the first hit?
And where did that reposition come in for flanking?
You really need to read the archetype again.
But anyway, for your specific question. You spell combat to cast Frostbite and declare you are using your hair to perform the touch attack.
Then 5'ft step to make a combat maneuver attempt (trip) against target.
....This attempt is at attack bonus -7 and secondary but you declare a swift action to use arcane accuracy for a +4 to hit.
This trip succeeds (this is versus the targets CMD not their AC) and target is knocked prone, the successful maneuver activates your free grapple check (also versus the targets CMD not their AC) and the frostbite effects go off (target is now prone, fatigued and entangled). this will pretty much guarantee the target will be grappled.
At this point you attack with your sword at (Bab -2 +4) for weapon damage plus another charge of frostbite and then free action release the target and attack again with the hair at Bab -7 +4 inflicting regular damage and using another charge from the frostbite (another 1D6+level) and another free grapple attempt.
The following round you repeat above but make sure to cast the spell last. This will let you get at least 5 attacks out of your 1 casting of frostbite (5D6 +(lvl*5))+regular weapon damage + hair damage against an opponent who SHOULD be dead after all that. If it's still alive finish your spell cast for another Frostbite or a shocking Grasp to finish him off.
That's what Hexcrafter 5/white haired witch 1, lineage: Frostbite gives you.
My recommendation however was for you to go Magus 4/White haired 2, Magical Knack: Witch.
Which sacrifices the Rime spell to add free constrict damage on both hair attacks and gives you 10 ft reach and a free reposition to flank when you grapple.
galahad2112 wrote: @Mathwei ap Niall
How exactly can I be "wasting" a 3x multiplier? I'll almost certainly be enlarged, and have a pretty beefy Str, say, 20 for nice round numbers,
So, 2d6+5 (more for power att, but you get the idea) becomes 6d6+15...that sounds like 4d6+10 extra to me, which I'm pretty sure is better than 5d6... Also, when I do crit, the spell will still be doubled, so what's not to like? Like has been previously suggested, IF the falcata just isn't good enough, the Katana has the same maxed out crit range, and regularly deals an extra d6 per attack over a Dervish.
the reason dervish dancing is so good is that it lowers the magus' MAD, you wouldn't want to completely dump strength, but you can certainly keep it at a 10.
Quote: And either way, could the prehensile hair hold a shield? from what i can gather, yes, but i have to ask, why bother? you have the shield spell and shields mess with your casting, unless you get a mithrial light shield. TBH, i'd rather just get a wand of shield, cheaper and easier in the long run.
oh, sure. it's just an option. You know, like fighting defensively to cast that shield spell as a dervish for the first 2 levels.
As to the reason Dervish Dance is so good....I know! It just seems that it's all I ever see, but 10 str is just so low! I want to carry the treasure that I loot off of the massive piles of corpses behind me! Plus the str. is a much more versatile attack stat - in case of sunder, disarm, gets stolen in the night, oh, I need bludgeoning damage and he's got electricity resistance...That sort of thing.
That being said, I do REALLY like the dervish feat, and I am certainly not trying to bad-mouth the dervish build. It just seems a tad limited, that's all. But they certainly are good at what they do.
galahad2112 wrote: As to the reason Dervish Dance is so good....I know! It just seems that it's all I ever see, but 10 str is just so low! Oh, you haven't seen the posts or the people that dump their strength down to 7 because "they won't need it". I did lowing to 10 is a dump Quote: I want to carry the treasure that I loot off of the massive piles of corpses behind me! bag of holding/handy haver sack/fighter Quote: Plus the str. is a much more versatile attack stat - in case of sunder, disarm, gets stolen in the night Yeah ok, you got me there, but hey, agile maneuvers, but the dex build is more feat taxed... anyway, you don't have a full bab Quote: oh, I need bludgeoning damage and he's got electricity resistance...That sort of thing. well you could prepare something other than shocking grasp, or hell shocking grasp meta magicked to do different type of damage. And in case you need bludgeoning or piercing there is always the versatile weapon spell AND you can ignore the weapon based DR (5/bludgeoning ect) with a +3 weapon or greater, totally doable by a 5th level magus
Magical Knack is not available in PFS, the OP is better off just stating what he wants to be able to do and we can help him get as close as possible.
@ Skerek
7 str! What!!! that so weak that you couldn't even move...your bowels!
Carrying capacity - It's like getting a several thousand gp magic item at character creation! I love it!
Right, my lack of Full BAB is going to hurt...But when I'm Enlarged/Raging/Even MORE full of myself!!....I mean/etc.!, I'll do pretty well against those Combat Maneuvers. Plus I think that just having a whip and tripping from 30 ft for no penalty is just cool.
Absolutely, spell selection is very important, and Magi get all the good ones. "It's like a party in my mouth, and everyone's getting hasted"
Plus spell recall is just super freakin cool.
Of course, I would just Rage power attack, but, that's the beauty of the build. "Oh, let's see....they resist fire, cold, acid, electricity...." "...How about ass-whoopin's?" Oh, who am I kidding...You know I'm just gonna cast Magic Missile.
@ Michael Foster
Hey, good catch. I just noticed that heart of the fields wasn't legal either. hmmm. Well, old standby it is, then.
Michael Foster 989 wrote: Magical Knack is not available in PFS, the OP is better off just stating what he wants to be able to do and we can help him get as close as possible. Well, thats easy.
A PFS legal character with a plan.
Goals include:
- Being able to inflict as many debilitating effects each turn, every turn, all day long. Or on an average of 4 combats a day that take up 5 rounds of attacking.
- I would prefer decent defense and respecitable damage.
(currently at 5 Magus (hexcrafter)/1 Witch(white-haired)with: (options listed below are subject to change at any moment)
-- Both - Blade of Mercy, Magical Lineage (Frostbite)
-- Str build - Enforcer, Rime Spell, Combat Reflexes
-- Dex build - Weapon Finesse, Enforcer, Rime Spell, Agile Maneauvers, Combat Reflexes
What I could use more of:
- Better rules understanding
- More status effects
- A more finalized plan :P
What I don't care about:
- 1 shot attacks or tricks. This includes Shocking Grasp (its cool, but just not what I'm looking for in this character)
- What stat I should tank. Don't think anything more can be said about subject that hasn't been repeated several times.
What I like:
- Rules explantions.
- General tips to improve my character at creation. i.e. Starting equipment.
- Alternate build ideas that could perform my goals better than what I'm currently aiming for.
Thanks again everyone for your assistance and patience. This is still a rather complicated character and this being my frist real attempt at pathfinder I'm finding a lot of your info to be incredibley helpful.
the hex slumber is really nasty. the basics are: spend a standard action one target within 30 ft makes a will save against 10 + 1/2 your level + int. If it fails it is HELPLESS for a number of rounds equal to your level. Now, I realize that this may come across a a one-shot deal, and in truth, for that one enemy, it is. However, the amazing thing is there's not attack of opportunity, no check for spell resistance, no wasted spell slot if it fails, really no downside at all, but the one caveat is that it can only be attempted against any given creature once per day. So, I say we make that one shot count!
Some debilitating effects that help us here would be the shaken (or frightened/panicked) and the sickened condition. these confer a -2 penalty to saves. As I'm sure you know, enforcer coupled with frostbite can really help give a lingering shaken condition.
For sickened, something a bit stronger will be required. The Spell Ghoul Touch is very nice - a touch attack paralyzes one touched creature for 1d6 + 2 rounds, fort save negates. additionally, every living creature within 10 feet of the paralyzed creature must make a fort save or become sickened.
The only drawback to ghoul touch is that you would have to spend a magus arcana on it, as it is a wizard spell.
Another great spell that you will get upon reaching 7th level is Stinking Cloud. A good size radius burst effect, and all within make a fort save vs. the nauseated condition. That one is really nasty. It gives them only a single move action per round! I would definitely take this as one of my two 3rd level spells.
A neat 1st level trick (and it gets better) is the time honored magical lineage, but this time, for magic missile. Magic missile has the force descriptor. The feat toppling spell grants a free trip attempt when the spell deals force damage. this is fairly nice at level 1, especially since it can be used with spell combat, and doesn't require an attack roll. Of course as you progress in levels, you get more missiles per casting, and thus can knock down several enemies at once.
with these status affecting tricks in play, you should be able to really control a vast group of enemies with minimal fuss. The build that I would think about would be
elf hexcrafter6
str 12
dex 15 +2 (+1 at 8th)
con 10
int 15 +2 (+1 at 4th)
wis 10
cha 12
traits
magical lineage(magic missile)
blades of mercy
feats
toppling spell
enforcer
skill focus intimidate
weapon finesse
equipment
chain shirt
rapier
Combat strategy
magic missile to topple as many as possible, hopefully w/ spell combat to use enforcer.
continue to frostbite or spam arcane marks to also use enforcer.
use ghoul touch against a shaken foe, using spellstrike and/or spell combat
perhaps one more magic missile to lock down the field, if not start using the slumber hex. all you have to do is wait for your companions to slit some throats.
I am currently running a Starsoul Sorcerer who uses the following:
STR 8, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 20
Traits:
Magic Lineage [Magic Missile]
Eastern Mysteries [1/day add +2 to the DC of a spell, chosen at casting, Faction trait for Qadira]
Feats:
Toughness
Toppling Spell
Magic Missile
Grease
At 3rd level, I plan on taking Flare Burst, since my bloodline arcana effectively doubles its duration for free, Unseen Servant nearly doubles my encumbrance level and gives me a limited range of standard actions.
I can attest that Toppling Spell with a +7 CMB is pretty obnoxious at low level play. (Level 2 character, 5 CHA). When adding Bless or scrolls of Eagle's Splendor, it gets even more obnoxious.
Oh yeah! Grease! It's the WORD! I love that spell. I would think that it's also super useful to a level 1 magus with spell combat. And certainly if you can make your foe shaken to lower their save DC with blade of mercy/enforcer.
More questions abound!
1. With my prehensile hair up, seems I can use that to cast my spells. Which should let me wield a weapon in my off hand. Can I add two-weapon fighting to Spell Combat? Penalties stack or since spell combat is pratically two-weapon fighting to start with can I get away ith?
2. I've read the two hair abilities a bunch now... and we're 100% certain they merge into one ablity? It still reads to me like I get 2 attacks, 1 with reach, 1 with grapple.
3. I've never dealt with applying poisons to weapons in any game system. So not clue on how they actually work and my digging around this morning didn't exactly give me any useable results. Still, anything from say... a dip of ninja to be gained (in terms of applying even more 'apply every round' status effects)?
1. Unfortunately no, Spell combat specifically stats you have to have an empty HAND (not any old appendage).
On the rounds that you aren't using spell combat yes you can but it's going to be feat/cash intensive to do.
2. Hair is a single natural attack, you are either using all of it or none of it and like all natural attacks you can only attack once with an appendage unless something specifically grants you an ADDITIONAL attack. Prehensile hair doesn't have that text so once you've attacked with it once it's done for the round.
3. Do-able but expensive and really unnecessary.
@Magnus
1)
I don't think that you would be able to cast spells with the hair AND get spell combat. You should be able to do one or the other, or even attack with spell combat and get the hair attack, but Spell Combat specifically states:
"To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand."
It would have been cool, though.
2)
The white haired witch lets you use it as a weapon with the grab special ability. Prehensile hair lets you grow your hair or shrink at will, AND lets you "manipulate" your hair for a number of minutes each day. I would say that you could combine the two to get a 10-ft reach or 5-ft reach at will. However, the most that you will be able to do is use your hair as an attack of opportunity as a reach weapon, and perhaps pick up a hard-to-reach item. But you will still get the benefits of having a 10-ft reach natural attack with grab. That's kind of cool.
3)
In PFS, the only poisons readily available are to classes with the poison use feature, so I presume that's why your asking about ninja?
As far as applying the poison to a weapon, it takes a standard action. The benefit of the poison use class feature (in non-PFS play) is that you do not accidentally poison yourself during the application. Normally, there is a 5% chance that you poison yourself when applying it to a weapon (i.e. don't roll a 1 on your application check).
However, it takes a good bit of money to buy the poisons, and they are one-use effects, or two-use with a feat. Since the prep time means that you can't prep a specific poison and do anything else in combat, and the fact that poisons are costly, I would steer clear of the Ninja.
However, if you are looking to dip into rogue, the thug archetype meshes well with enforcer (whenever he demoralizes, add 1 to the duration, and if duration =4+, you can make them frightened for 1 round.). Their 3rd level ability is also very nice (brutal beating lets you forgo 1d6 of sneak attack damage to make your foe sickened for rounds = 1/2 your level, no save allowed)
A lv3 thug/lv4 hexcrafter could pretty much take one foe out completely with just one spell, and here's how:
1) use spell combat to cast vanish
2) sneak attack to demoralize/frighten/sicken.
3) use the slumber hex to make them helpless.
combine the thug and scout archetypes so that you don't even need to vanish, as a lv4 scout ALWAYS gets sneak attack on a charge.
Mathwei ap Niall wrote: 1. Unfortunately no, Spell combat specifically stats you have to have an empty HAND (not any old appendage).
On the rounds that you aren't using spell combat yes you can but it's going to be feat/cash intensive to do.
2. Hair is a single natural attack, you are either using all of it or none of it and like all natural attacks you can only attack once with an appendage unless something specifically grants you an ADDITIONAL attack. Prehensile hair doesn't have that text so once you've attacked with it once it's done for the round.
3. Do-able but expensive and really unnecessary.
1. Hmm, its a limb, and is as dexterous as a hand... still seems like it should work. Meh, what if I revisit 2 alchemist and actually get a physical hand that way? Would TWF work then? If so how would it apply?
2. Well, white hair is my normal head of hair and prehensile says it can be elsewhere (beard, mustache). Which should dodge it being only a single source. The part that gets me the most though is one is specifically a Primary Natural attack, and the other is a Secondary Natural attack. Which are completely different I know one can become the other in certain circumstances... but still different.
3. This build may be doing enough, but hey. Worth knowing all the actions and I just found out that my regular PFS groups is aparently going to have 3 ninjas... (this may change, but gah-dang). Still, if the 2 achelmist comes back into play I get poison use. Still expensive though... unless I use Wasp Swarm poison? Srd doesn't list a price and does a 1 dex damage. Can already penalty 10 dex... 11 or more could be good for my ninja buddies. ;)
@magnus, you are running into the Logic vs. Ruling issue that really does pervade this game.
To make it easier to understand whats going to happen ask your self these questions. If I can animate my head hair and beard hair separately then why can't I do my beard, mustache and head hair as well. What about my chest hair and arm hair too? If that works then why can't I do each strand of hair separately ?
That's where that stream of thought goes and you know how any GM is going to rule there.
Natural attacks are binary, all of this or none of it. The only exception is claws and that's purely because they are a special case and are spelled out as such in their entry.
Mathwei ap Niall wrote: @magnus, you are running into the Logic vs. Ruling issue that really does pervade this game.
To make it easier to understand whats going to happen ask your self these questions. If I can animate my head hair and beard hair separately then why can't I do my beard, mustache and head hair as well. What about my chest hair and arm hair too? If that works then why can't I do each strand of hair separately ?
That's where that stream of thought goes and you know how any GM is going to rule there.
Natural attacks are binary, all of this or none of it. The only exception is claws and that's purely because they are a special case and are spelled out as such in their entry.
Actually, thats a pretty simple answer. Cause I haven't gained/developed that ability to manipulate a third source of hair, or each hair individually (even though I sorta am, but I have to combine them in a certain way for it to be enough to have it considered to be an attack).
EDIT: Logically and Mechanically it looks like it should be different attacks. So far as I can tell anyway.
Really? So let's say you animate your head hair with the white Witch power and then use prehensile hair to do your beard. Then you activate it again to animate your mustache, then again to do your eyebrows.
All of these are legal by the Hex and all of them violate the intention of the power.
Natural attacks are convoluted enough without trying to use the same piece for 2 different attacks.
However if your GM rules that you can (doubtful but it can happen) then cool, run with it. Since this is for PFS however I have found it's safer to expect the most restrictive version since you will have multiple different GM's and can never be sure what will fly with any/all of them.
Mathwei ap Niall wrote: Really? So let's say you animate your head hair with the white Witch power and then use prehensile hair to do your beard. Then you activate it again to animate your mustache, then again to do your eyebrows.
All of these are legal by the Hex and all of them violate the intention of the power.
Natural attacks are convoluted enough without trying to use the same piece for 2 different attacks.
However if your GM rules that you can (doubtful but it can happen) then cool, run with it. Since this is for PFS however I have found it's safer to expect the most restrictive version since you will have multiple different GM's and can never be sure what will fly with any/all of them.
It says "or."
Meaning I've only trained up on one source. Hair (mechanically) does not equal eyebrows. Males for instance can choose from Hair, Eyebrows, Mustache, OR Beard.
The White hair doesn't let me use anything but "Hair." No eyebrow, mustache, or beard option. So instantly switching between the 4 options isn't possible. I would assume I would have to pick one source (with Prehensile as its the only one with options) and gain the ability to manipulate that single source.
You are making assumptions that are not spelled out anywhere in the rules. If you were required to pick one of these and never change it then it would say that. As is all it says is you can choose to activate your hair OR your beard OR your mustache OR your eyebrows. All of them are still technically just hair.
Mathwei ap Niall wrote: You are making assumptions that are not spelled out anywhere in the rules. If you were required to pick one of these and never change it then it would say that. As is all it says is you can choose to activate your hair OR your beard OR your mustache OR your eyebrows. All of them are still technically just hair. While I agree that it is wordly poorly for how I'm trying to interpret it, but I think its even worse for how you're trying to intrepret it.
Spelled out? No, but the context is there. I submit exhibit A.
"The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows)..."
Here, Paizo has made a clear distinction that 'hair' doesn't mean your 'eyebrows'
Thus. 'Hair' now specifically references to the hair on top of your head.
Normally reading the sentance as if it were a book I'd agree with you Mathwei, but.. we're reading a game manual. Terms are not as easily interchangeable.
If we accept that, then its clear you're only gaining an ability to manipulate one source of hair. Be it "Hair" or Eyebrows, it doesn't matter which one we choose, but thats the one we get.
Just so long as you keep your pants on to manipulate your additional appendage, I don't care....
AdAstraGames wrote: Just so long as you keep your pants on to manipulate your additional appendage, I don't care.... LOL.
See, if I end up being right, that isn't even a option! If Mathwei remains? correct... you can't stop me! muwhahahaha.
You've never known terror until you've seen a Dwarf in a kilt using Dwarven Waraxes with Three Weapon Fighting.
Ok, hair semantics aside.
Whats the deal with Spell Combat and Two-weapon fighting. The wording thats tripping me up is Spell Combat is already functioning as two-weapon fighting.
Two-weapon fighitng (with the feat, which I would take if this ends up being worth it) gives -2 to the main hand (which I would still only have one) and my off hand a -2 (-4 if not a light weapon).
So since the spell is also acting like (another?) off hand, I'm attempting to make the case that:
-2 Main
-2 Off hand
-2 Spell
The other intreprtation is that they don't 'merge' but stack:
-4 Main
-4 Off hand
-4 Spell
The final interpretation is that they intermingle as the 'normal mode' being two-weapon fighting, and spell combat putting a penalty on all other attacks:
-2 Spell
-4 Main
-4 Off Hand
The 3rd one listed seems the most likely... if my understanding of the rules is getting any better.
If this and everything I think is correct my now 5 Magus/1 Witch/2 Alchemist as a full round action...
-2 Spellstrike
-4 Main Hand
-4 Off hand
-7 White Hair
-7 Prehensile Hair
Unless two-weapon fighting also penalizes secondary natural attacks, but I don't think it does.
Thers still a question too of whether to go str based or dex based. If the Alchemist trick works str based wins. If it doesn't Dex still has a chance (if not, the lead).
Alright, winding up here I think finally. Assuming all the above will work in some capacity.
Human:
18/14/12/14/10/8
Traits:
- Blade of Mercy
- Magical Lineage (Forst Bite)
1. Magus
- Feats: Enforcer, ....
2. Magus
3. Magus
- Feat: Rime Spell, Magic Arcana (Maneavur Master)
4. Hexcrafter Magus
- +1 Dex, Prehensile Hair
5. White-Haired Witch
- Feat: Combat Reflexes
- Familiar: King Crab
- Patron: Strength
6. Magus
- Bonus Feat: .....
7. Vivisectionist Alchemist
- Feat: Two-Weapon Fighting
8. Vivisectionist Alchemist
- +1 stat(dex most likely to even it off)
- Discovery: Vestigial Arm
9. Vivisectionist Alchemist
- Feat: ....
10. Arcane Trickster
11. Arcane Trickster
- Feat: ....
12. Eldrich Knight?
I make a lot of attacks, but I'm a little worried about my accuracy in the higher levels. (unless my first attack hits, then it should fine I'd imagine)
EDIT: Might be better to let go of the third arm tactics for more accuracy and more spells.
Plus I have some room for some feats. I'm open to suggestions (and those already selected are open to change as well).
Thoughts?
Magnus Arcanis wrote:
Thoughts?
Too many hits to your BAB. At 9th level your BAB is LESS than a WIZARD's BAB.
You need to pair things down a bit.
I don't think you will be decent at grappling, so why take the BAB hit for it?
Go with pure hexcrafter magus, perhaps with a few fighter levels thrown in for good measure.
-James
james maissen wrote: Magnus Arcanis wrote:
Thoughts?
Too many hits to your BAB. At 9th level your BAB is LESS than a WIZARD's BAB.
You need to pair things down a bit.
I don't think you will be decent at grappling, so why take the BAB hit for it?
Go with pure hexcrafter magus, perhaps with a few fighter levels thrown in for good measure.
-James Actually my BAB is one higher at +5. Wizards have +4 @9. However still doesn't excuse that its low.
Regardless of what happens I think I'm gonna drop those prestige classes for more Magus levels.
Good news is... getting grapple to work shouldn't be THAT bad. With Maneauver Mastery I get Magus level+2+BAB from other classes to my Trip CMB. That and I think I'm gonna switch up my tactic.
Use the -2 Spell strike melee weapon first. Then try not to use the trip/grapple hair until after Frostbite lands. Once that happens the Fatigue and Entangle put a -6 to the target's Dex. Which... helps.
For other feats...
Think I have room for combat casting now, maybe intimidating prowess, weapon focus...
Magnus Arcanis wrote:
Thoughts?
How about, say by 8th, magus5/fighter3(lorewarden).
Feats:
Enforcer, Intimidating Prowess, Combat expertise, improved trip, greater trip, weapon prof: whip, weapon focus whip, whip mastery, and improved whip mastery.
Arcana:
Wand Wielder
Maneuver Mastery (trip)
Traits:
Blade of Mercy
Either Accelerated Drinker (enlarge potions) or the one that gives less penalty for using combat expertise.
Think it might do a bit of what you'd like effectively.
James has a pretty nasty build idea here. I like it!
For a twist on that theme, consider taking a half orc and swapping ferocity for the beastmaster racial trait.
An alternate class/feat progression might be:
1st(fighter) Enforcer, wpn focus (whip)
2nd (magus)-
3rd (fighter)Combat expertise, Improved trip, whip mastery
4th (magus)-
5th (magus)dodge
6th (magus)
7th (cavalier [Gendarme archetype]) mobility, spring attack
8th (magus) whirlwind attack
You would lose out on the +2 CMB for 3rd level fighter, and again for greater trip, but you would be able to trip/demoralize everyone within 15 feet (30 ft. if enlarged).
galahad2112 wrote: James has a pretty nasty build idea here. I like it!
For a twist on that theme, consider taking a half orc and swapping ferocity for the beastmaster racial trait.
I missed the beastmaster racial trait.. nice catch.
Go with the above build using it rather than human. The extra +2 intimidate works well here.
You might also want chain fighter to have spiked chains over orc double axes.
-James
I like the whip ideas, but invovles a lot to get going. I would definately give it a shot if I didn't have to start at first level.
Anyway, think I'm gonna abandon the two weapon fighting idea unless Prehensile hair turns out to be able to qualify as a hand for spell combat. The penalty to attack rolls was too great(though getting up to 2d6 sneak attack damage on each one of those attacks would've been awesome). However, I can change my mind later if I want.
So what I think I'm gonna go with:
Human - Neutral Good
18/14/12/14/10/8
Traits: Blade of Mercy, Magical Lineage (Frostbite)
Feats: Enforcer, Extra Arcane Pool
AC: 16 - HP: 10
Skills: Climb, Intimidate, Knowledge(arcana), Spellcraft, Use Magic Device
Choose Extra Arcane Pool so right out of the gate I can get +1 from my extra pool for 5 combats (which is hopefully enough for the whole day)
At level 3 I'll take Rime Spell and Maneauver Master(Trip) magic arcana.
Level 4 I'll pick up Prehensile Hair. Level 5 I'll take Combat reflexs (for my 10' reaching hair).
Still kinda open on my remaining feats... but have some time.
I'm open to any last comments, but I thank you all for getting this newbie started. You've helped me a great deal.
Magnus Arcanis wrote: I like the whip ideas, but invovles a lot to get going. I would definately give it a shot if I didn't have to start at first level.
Actually it starts off fine out of the box. At first level you're likely using a guisarme, but that quickly changes.
But suit yourself,
James
james maissen wrote: Magnus Arcanis wrote: I like the whip ideas, but invovles a lot to get going. I would definately give it a shot if I didn't have to start at first level.
Actually it starts off fine out of the box. At first level you're likely using a guisarme, but that quickly changes.
But suit yourself,
James I guess I'm on the side of a whip not being all that great until you can obtain Improved Whip Mastery. Thats just me though. Hopefully one day I'll get around to play a Whip build. :)
Magnus Arcanis wrote:
I guess I'm on the side of a whip not being all that great until you can obtain Improved Whip Mastery. Thats just me though. Hopefully one day I'll get around to play a Whip build. :)
With disagree, no worries. Have fun with the hair.
-James
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Hint, if you really just want Touch of Fatigue just burn a grand for a for a Cracked Orange Prism Ioun stone. It adds one 0-th level spell to your spell list.
Where can I find this Cracked Orange Prism? Really wanted to pick it up. However... I can't find it!
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