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15 and 20 point builds: Paladin for Kingmaker


Advice


Hi all, first post and stuff :)

We're starting the Kingmaker campaign shortly and I've been fiddling around with point-buys and don't know if I'm missing something or not. I don't know anything (pretty much) about Kingmaker so no spoilers please or "you'll need <Stat X> when you run into...."

I'll be playing a Human Paladin, using a 2-handed weapon. I've got two slightly different builds made for 20 point, and one for 15. Comments and critiques welcome!

20 Point, version 1:
Str 15
Dex 12
Con 13
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 16 (+2 for race = 18)

20 Point, version 2:
Str 14
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 16 (+2 for race = 18)

The only difference between these is +/- 1 Str and Con. In version one I can up my Str to 16 at level 4, in version two I have the +2 hp/level for 14 Con immediately instead of waiting for level 8. What your thoughts?

15 Point:
Str 14
Dex 12
Con 13
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 15 (+2 for race = 17)

I *think* I can see one thing I could change, but want to see if you fine folks here find it.

I've played a LOT of D&D 3.5, but have never played Pathfinder before so not sure what's different/the same

Cheers all
Viperion

Grand Lodge

Kingmaker is a good campaign for mounted paladins, however, this requires ranks in ride and handle animal, which will be hard with 8 int. I would go with 10 int and 10 dex, as the extra +1 dex modifier doesn't give you much. (All the good dex-based feats require dex 13)


What else does the party have? Knowing if they'll be depending on you to eat melee damage would help determine how much you care about Constitution.


Interesting idea; I hadn't really considered a mounted Paladin as I like to get up close and personal :) The 12 Dex is so if (when ;) ) I get full plate I'll still get my +1 dex bonus, plus as a Paladin without a shield I need all the help I can get.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting Subscriber

[b]One of the keys to success w/2 handed fighters is dropping your opponent before he can drop you. I would switch your stats around a little to maximize damage and your suvival at lower levels:

STR 17 (15+2)
INT 10
WIS 9 (You have plenty of save buffs due to charisma)
DEX 12
CON 14
CHA 14

just my 2 cents...


jasonfahy wrote:
What else does the party have? Knowing if they'll be depending on you to eat melee damage would help determine how much you care about Constitution.

We're not sure yet (character creation is in a couple of days) but it looks like we'll have one other dedicated front-line fighter, a couple of sneaky rogue types, and one each of divine and arcane casters of some variety (6 PC's)

@Terok: Cha 14 is awfully low for a Paladin, especially if I'm also dropping Wis down below 10. Why do you suggest Int 10? It seems to me that there is very little reason to have even an average intelligence - even with 1 skill point per level, +1 for being human, +1 for favoured class buff (I don't see any real reason to take +1hp, given d10 hit dice and a Con bonus and Lay on Hands) that's 3 skill points per level which should be any amount.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The reason you want strength higher than charisma for a two-handed paladin is because strength is always on, unlike smite evil.

A 20 point-buy that I make for a paladin would look like:

Str 18, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 14

My reasoning is this. I've got a two-handed weapon and I want it to punch hard, so a +4 strength is much better than a +3 strength, as it turns into a +6 instead of a +4. I can afford a low dexterity because I'm wearing heavy armour ASAP, and swift action healing is available. A wisdom dump is acceptable because I've got a fast will save, immunity to fear, and charisma to saves. Naturally one of the first things I want to get is a headband of charisma, but that high strength from square one will be really helpful. With a human I've got four skill points, but I'll always put favoured class into hit points because I need a good amount to give me a chance to swift heal.

Similarly, a 15 point-buy:

Str 17, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 14

I lose a skill and my strength drops, but it can go back up at level 4. Three skills is pushing it, but as a full BAB class my first priority goes to combat ability; 3 skills is still enough for diplomacy, perception, and a smattering of acrobatics, climb, swim and knowledge.


OK well given that most folks seem to think the Str is more important (something I'd debate given Divine Grace, Smite, and Lay on Hands), maybe I could drop do something like this:

Str 16 (10 points)
Dex 12 (2)
Con 14 (5)
Int 7 (-4)
Wis 10 (0)
Cha 15 (7)

Add +2 to Strength from race, making 18, and then raise Cha to 16 at 4th? I am NOT a fan of Int 7, although mechanically it's identical to 8 or 9 for skill points and only one worse for the few Int skills I'll be using.

In a big(ish) party, I'm hoping there'll be a spread of skills such that the big dumb pretty guy in front won't be called on too often to know stuff ;)

EDIT: Just heard from the GM and it's 15 point, not 20... back to the drawing board...

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well keep the same idea with:

Str 15 (7 points)
Dex 12 (2)
Con 14 (5)
Int 7 (-4)
Wis 10 (0)
Cha 14 (5)

+2 strength to make it 17, raised to 18 at level 4. If you're not a fan of int 7, another option is:

Str 14 (5)
Dex 12 (2)
Con 14 (5)
Int 10 (0)
Wis 8 (-2)
Cha 14 (5)

or

Str 14 (5)
Dex 12 (2)
Con 13 (3)
Int 10 (0)
Wis 10 (0)
Cha 14 (5)

14 is a good stat. +2 to saves is pretty amazing.

Silver Crusade

Kingmaker:
There are allot of things in kingmaker that you can not use smite evil on. Many of them are end fights.

Str base works much better then Cha base paladins most of the time.


calagnar wrote:
Str base works much better then Cha base paladins most of the time.

If I really wanted to play a Str based character I'd just go for Fighter or Barbarian, wouldn't I?


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Have you considered a ranged paladin? They are quite good.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Most melee characters are strength-based. I would say most paladins are physical stat first, charisma second. It will end up being your highest mental stat by far, but strength is good because it's always on.


Welcome to the boards, Viperion.

A two-handed Paladin is something that is really cool, and I haven't had the pleasure yet (though I've played many paladins, I was always sword-and-shield).

I'll offer you my 15-point build. Let me say this - Strictly speaking, I agree that for a two-handed Pally, strength is more important that Charisma. But it comes down to this - are you more offensive or defensive? My build...

STR 14 (5 points)
DEX 12 (2 points)
CON 12 (2 points)
INT 10 (0 points)
WIS 10 (0 points)
CHA 14 (5 points)

I don't like dump stats, so none are included here. I left you a few options, using this build as a base - your +2 can go into either Strength of Charisma. I recommend Strength, but if you feel the pull of Charisma on you, go for it. Don't let us stop you from playing the character you want to play.

The other thing is that only 14 points are spent here - the last one can go into either DEX or CON, your choice. If you see a good DEX 13 feat you like (you may want dodge), you can put the point in there. Otherwise, go with Con so you have that last bit of health before you die, just in case. I've seen stabilization rolls succeed when on the brink - one last roll to live - so don't think that it will never matter. It may not come up for you, but someone somewhere has been saved because his CON was one point higher.

Also, here is a really cool picture from an anime I like - she kinda looks like a two-handed Paladin, huh?

Just for ideas you may not have considered.


TheRedArmy wrote:

My build...

STR 14 (5 points)
DEX 12 (2 points)
CON 12 (2 points)
INT 10 (0 points)
WIS 10 (0 points)
CHA 14 (5 points)

I don't like dump stats, so none are included here. I left you a few options, using this build as a base - your +2 can go into either Strength of Charisma. I recommend Strength, but if you feel the pull of Charisma on you, go for it. Don't let us stop you from playing the character you want to play.

As it turns out, the GM has changed his mind and is allowing us 20 points. I like what you've done there actually, it's good where it needs to be but not weak anywhere. Now that I have an extra 6 points to spend I may go for my original build (the more things change....):

Str 15 (7)
Dex 12 (2)
Con 13 (3)
Int 8 (-2)
Wis 10 (0)
Cha 16 (10)

Putting the +2 human bonus in Strength. This gives me a very good Str and Cha, potential for Str 18 at 4th level, and that extra point of Con you mention. I wouldn't class 8 as a "dump" stat more than a roleplaying one - I could almost be convinced to have Int 10 Wis 8 instead, as long as my Cha is +3 or better.

Quote:
Also, here is a really cool picture from an anime I like - she kinda looks like a two-handed Paladin, huh?

She's not wearing enough armour (surprise surprise :) )


Int>Wis


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Bikini armor. The best kind of protection.


I like Cha-based Paladins myself - I think str vs. cha is largely a matter of preference.

Str will give you a better damage output overall in most games, but Cha will give you a defensive edge, especially because of Divine Grace, maybe my favourite class feature in the game. The importance of good saves cannot be overstated.
It also has the secondary benefits of Smite Evil buffing, more LoH (effectively amounting to extra HP since you will be swift-action healing yourself all the time), more spell slots, better/more channeling, etc...

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you're going human go 7 int or 10 int, not in between. Honestly an 8 wisdom will not hurt you from level 2 on.


Thanks all. I think I'll go with

Str 15 (--> 17)
Dex 12
Con 13
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 16

4th level: Str --> 18
8th level: Con --> 14

And I'll grab the first Cha-raising item we find.

Low wisdom paladin - could be fun!

Thanks again for all the replies - although I ended up pretty much where I started I definitely had to think about it!

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

No problem, I'm glad you feel like we helped.

You could play him as a 'leaps before he looks' type of character with a strong conscience.


Mergy wrote:
You could play him as a 'leaps before he looks' type of character with a strong conscience.

Yep, that's the one.

He's going to be big on the Crusading Right Hand of God type deal; but at the same time will be easily sucked in to go whereever he's pointed with the flimsiest of excuses ;) That should get me in plenty of trouble :D


Viperion wrote:

Thanks all. I think I'll go with

Str 15 (--> 17)
Dex 12
Con 13
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 16

4th level: Str --> 18
8th level: Con --> 14

And I'll grab the first Cha-raising item we find.

Low wisdom paladin - could be fun!

Thanks again for all the replies - although I ended up pretty much where I started I definitely had to think about it!

Just saying:

When you start with 14 Con and increase Ch at level 8 from 15 to 16 you have one more point to spend. Well, that does not really help. But if you drop Wis to 7 (what is definitly no problem as paladin) you could start with 15+2/12/14/10/7/16. Then I would swap Str and Ch, so you start with 18 Str in order to gain the huges bonuses to damage as early as possible (as +4-mod is way better than +3 when you wield THW).


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Bikini armor. The best kind of protection.

..if you have enough charisma.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
A highly regarded expert wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Bikini armor. The best kind of protection.
..if you have enough charisma.

Charisma =/= beauty. Do you find the Star-Spawn of Cthulhu sexually attractive?


A highly regarded expert wrote:
Do you find the Star-Spawn of Cthulhu sexually attractive?

Expert, before you answer - remember what we talked about.

Liberty's Edge

For paladins, 8 and 7 intelligence are the same when it comes to skill points. Both will get you 1, or 2 with human. I'd go for the 7 intelligence. (Edit: This is part of why I houserule all 2 skill point classes to get 4 instead.)

Str 16+2 (10)
Dex 12 (2)
Con 12 (2)
Int 7 (-4)
Wis 10 (0)
Cha 16 (10)

With favored class going into hp seems like a good allocation for 20 points. If that 12 con makes you nervous, drop charisma by a point and buy a 14, with your first stat point maybe going back into charisma. So the high-con variant would look like...

Str 16+2 (10)
Dex 12 (2)
Con 14 (5)
Int 7 (-4)
Wis 10 (0)
Cha 15 (7)

I don't think that +1 hp/+1 fort saves will be as good as +1 to all saves, +1 to diplomacy, +1 to hit/AC with smite evil, extra lay on hands, etc. Consider oathsworn paladin if you don't mind giving up the level 11 "make the party kill everything" ability.


Thanks again for the replies :) I'm going to stick with 15(17)/12/13/10/8/16 for now.

However, now I'm stuck on a second feat choice! I've taken Power Attack, and my second one is going to be either:

Cleave
Combat Reflexes
Furious Focus
Persuasive
Step Up

Reasoning:

Cleave seems obviously good, if you're in the front line and have multiple foes attacking you (which is what I'm hoping for).

Combat Reflexes is so I can pick up Bodyguard and In Harm's Way later on - if I choose this my choices for the next few levels will be set already. Is this feat chain any good?

Furious Focus: It doesn't really seem to me to do a feats worth of "work" - negating a -1 or -2 penalty to attack in certain circumstances seems a bit weak.

Persuasive: Fits my concept. I have Bully as a trait, so Intimidate is a class skill for me, and I took a rank in both Intimidate and Diplomacy at 1st level.

Step Up: Just seems really neat. It's something I never had in D&D3.5, and it seems pretty useful in-game, but how often - in your experiences - do the mages suddenly "know" that you have the feat and so never even attempt the five-foot step before casting?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Furious Focus is basically a weapon focus that works for all your two-handed weapons. And it gets better at level 4.


Cleave is generally quite useful IF you run up against lots of multiple opponents. Besides the front-one use you mention, it also let's you move and make multiple attacks, which is VERY handy.

Furious Focus gets very nice at higher levels, when it negates a -3 or -4 penalty.

Ignore the bodyguard feat chain. Just cast shield other. :)

Persuasive would be very good if you plan to keep adding skill ranks and being the party face.

Step up is neat, but ask your GM.


OK I think I'll go with Cleave now, and maybe pick up Persuasive and Furious Focus a bit later on

Cheers all!


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

All players that I have played with who used cleave ended up hating it. It is very much not the cleave line that it was in 3.5.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting Subscriber

Weapon focus or Toughness...remember you are going to get hit a lot...the rest are just situational...

Liberty's Edge

My favorite 20pt arrays, pre-racial:

15,14,14,14,12,07
15,14,12,12,12,12
17,14,12,12,12,07

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