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Sneak attack from Stealth RAW


Rules Questions

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Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Hayato Ken wrote:
Seriously guys, whats all your problem with stealth and sneak attack and sniping about?

People trying to avoid the "you need to use a movement action to hide again" and trying to get a full attack for free while getting to deny the target dexterity modifier outside of the surprise round and the flat footed rules.


wraithstrike wrote:

What are you talking about? I am the first person to tell you that being flat-footed and denied dex are not the same.

You need read my post because by going by the first and second paragraph you have either not read them or did not understand them. The idea that I don't know the difference between FF and denied dex shows that.

I also handled the stealth issue in an earlier post. Actually it was about 2 post ago.

The "hidden" condition which does not exist is going to be used to restealth in combat which is nigh impossible to do right now unless you are a ranger.

Quote:
Why even have a Blog with 14 paragraphs of proposed rules CHANGES if the rules were so clear?

Nobody even looked at this combination of rules before before they are spread out across 3 chapters so obviously it is not clear.

There is also no way to sneak up on someone in combat unless you have something like "hide in plain sight".
They wanted to change that. The second reason is the main reason. The lack of facing pretty much kills combat stealth barring special cirsumstances.

I think I and maybe some others mentioned flat-footedness and such. I don't know if Diego was referring to you when he said that or someone else. Sorry if I muddied the waters, but I was thinking for my home rules that the flat-footed would be if ALL your opponents restealthed... because then other than metagaming with the GM telling you what is going on, how could you know if you are in an "encounter" any more or not. I argue that you wouldn't, and therefore conditions similar to a surprise round are again viable for home rules.

As for if only some of your opponents gain stealth against you in combat, I'd rule you only lose Dex bonus to AC, not become flat-footed. The perception and stealth rules combined do indicate that you should get this benefit to your first attack as everyone is saying... EXCEPT that it states plain as day in stealth that you can't attack when using stealth.

That is the one line in this whole mess that, if rewritten more clearly, could clear all of it up. Do you attack, then lose stealth? Or do you have to cancel stealth before you attack because you can't attack when using it? The way it's written is unclear in RAW. Its quite easy as a GM to interpret it as the former though, and take away the Dex bonus of the target for the first attack.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
setzer9999 wrote:

Even though I think it seems clear that by RAW you just cannot attack from stealth (it says so quite plainly), and that for organized play this is just the way it is, in my home games, I rule that if your opponent doesn't know where you are, rogue or not, surprise or not, you can strike them as if they are flat-footed to your attack on your first attack.

In my mind, logically, "re-stealthing" should create the potential for "re-surprise attacking".

For example, let's say a Human Fighter is in a tomb filled with magical darkness and vampires, and has no magical equipment of any kind. Said character can't see the vampires, and they have total concealment. The vampires are very stealthy, and make very little to no noise as they strike. According to RAW, they can't strike and stay in stealth or get flat-footed bonuses after the first round... but in this condition, that is logically ridiculous. The Fighter can't ever see them. I'd bite that he knows where they are enough to protect himself from iterative attacks after a first blow if there are multiple, by "brail" as it were... but since its COMPLETELY DARK and there is total concealment, I argue that the first attack comes out of nowhere and get's him "flat footed" if its a "surprise round" or not.

This, however, is a house rule, and according to RAW (which is silly) even in this situation in rounds after the surprise round, the vampires could not hit the Fighter as if flat-footed... they would only get the 50% miss chance if he attacks them. It is silly when you think it through, so hence the home rules and threads like this.

Read the rules on darkness. They had total concealment so the target dexterity is denied.

They can get him flat footed (and being flat footed is different fro having the dexterity denied) in the surprise round (and if they are stealthy as you say they will get it) but they will not get it flat footed again in that combat.
You are house ruling something that has no need of house ruling.

Darkness wrote:


Darkvision allows many characters and monsters to see perfectly well without any light at all, but characters with normal or low-light vision can be rendered completely blind by putting out the lights. Torches or lanterns can be blown out by sudden gusts of subterranean wind, magical light sources can be dispelled or countered, or magical traps might create fields of impenetrable darkness.

In many cases, some characters or monsters might be able to see while others are blinded. For purposes of the following points, a blinded creature is one who simply can't see through the surrounding darkness.

Creatures blinded by darkness lose the ability to deal extra damage due to precision (for example, via sneak attack or a duelist's precise strike ability).

Blind creatures must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check fall prone. Blinded creatures can't run or charge.

All opponents have total concealment from a blinded creature, so the blinded creature has a 50% miss chance in combat. A blinded creature must first pinpoint the location of an opponent in order to attack the right square; if the blinded creature launches an attack without pinpointing its foe, it attacks a random square within its reach. For ranged attacks or spells against a foe whose location is not pinpointed, roll to determine which adjacent square the blinded creature is facing; its attack is directed at the closest target that lies in that direction.

A blinded creature loses its Dexterity modifier to AC (if positive) and takes a –2 penalty to AC.

A blinded creature takes a –4 penalty on Perception checks and most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks, including any with an armor check penalty. A creature blinded by darkness automatically fails any skill check relying on vision.

Creatures blinded by darkness cannot use gaze attacks and are immune to gaze attacks.

A creature blinded by darkness can make a Perception check as a free action each round in order to locate foes (DC equal to opponents' Stealth checks). A successful check lets a blinded character hear an unseen creature “over there somewhere.” It's almost impossible to pinpoint the location of an unseen creature. A Perception check that beats the DC by 20 reveals the unseen creature's square (but the unseen creature still has total concealment from the blinded creature).

A blinded creature can grope about to find unseen creatures. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent squares using a standard action. If an unseen target is in the designated square, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has pinpointed the unseen creature's current location. If the unseen creature moves, its location is once again unknown.

If a blinded creature is struck by an unseen foe, the blinded character pinpoints the location of the creature that struck him (until the unseen creature moves, of course). The only exception is if the unseen creature has a reach greater than 5 feet (in which case the blinded character knows the location of the unseen opponent, but has not pinpointed him) or uses a ranged attack (in which case the blinded character knows the general direction of the foe, but not his location).

A creature with the scent ability automatically pinpoints unseen creatures within 5 feet of its location.

Under Environment.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
setzer9999 wrote:
Sorry if I muddied the waters, but I was thinking for my home rules that the flat-footed would be if ALL your opponents restealthed... because then other than metagaming with the GM telling you what is going on, how could you know if you are in an "encounter" any more or not. I argue that you wouldn't, and therefore conditions similar to a surprise round are again viable for home rules.

That are hit and run tactics and should require a bit more that re-stealthing and staying in combat (i.e. using the same initiative).

If you were simply to re-stealth for 1 round the target would be still placing his back to a wall, swinging his sword in the hair before him and so on.

Flat footed has additional effects beside the loss of dexterity to AC, so treating one like the other is not a good move.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Pawns Subscriber

Wraithstrikw has a clear argumentation that exactly reflects what is written in the core rule books.

I get the impression some other gentlemen here are not english native speakers like myself actually and there are some misunderstandings due to speech barriers.

Using stealth while attacking is clearly not possible.
It is also not the same as attacking while stealthed.
"Stealthed" in this case is a condition that is ended by the attack action. Like it states in the rules, having this "stealthed" condition before attacking denies the victims of the attack DEX to AC. This is not only written under sneak attack, but partly in other places like under dexterity ability score entry: "You apply your character's Dexterity modifier to: Armor Class (AC), provided that the character can react to the attack.".

Next you should read how combat rounds work.

Then go down a little bit and look at attack action.
Now read about initiative.

Since you cannot do anything on others turns, not getting DEX to AC counts for the whole attack action, even if it is a full attack.
The only way to prevent this would be to ready an action (not sure of this, but perhaps you can 5' step away if someone attacks you) or to take an immediate action, where you probably need a feat for to do something usefull.

Attacking ends stealth, next round you have DEX to AC and everything goes like normal.

It is possible to use stealth in combat, but you need cover or concealment and a distraction from bluff or feinting, hellcat stealth or hide in plain sight.


Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just to clarify, my stance on the shooting from concealment (with or without stealth) has always been deny dex, not flat foot. I still maintain that perception checks need to be made, stealth or no stealth, to see someone with concealment who's attacking you from range (sneak attack damage or no).


Diego Rossi wrote:
setzer9999 wrote:
Sorry if I muddied the waters, but I was thinking for my home rules that the flat-footed would be if ALL your opponents restealthed... because then other than metagaming with the GM telling you what is going on, how could you know if you are in an "encounter" any more or not. I argue that you wouldn't, and therefore conditions similar to a surprise round are again viable for home rules.

That are hit and run tactics and should require a bit more that re-stealthing and staying in combat (i.e. using the same initiative).

If you were simply to re-stealth for 1 round the target would be still placing his back to a wall, swinging his sword in the hair before him and so on.

Flat footed has additional effects beside the loss of dexterity to AC, so treating one like the other is not a good move.

I know this is slightly tangent to the thread, but eh... are there official "hit and run" tactics in the rulebook? I haven't read any, but if there are that would be awesome. If not, how many rounds of stealth would you say are needed? I guess it would be up to GM opinion on when an encounter ends, and then when it resumes unless there are official rules for hit and run encounters.

What about this scenario... you have 2 opponents who may or may not be working as a team. Each of them has successfully used concealment to use Stealth. You happen upon the first one, and a surprise round begins. The other 1 doesn't get engaged in the combat.... let's say they are ambush predators, again, not necessarily working as a pack. You stumble near another one while currently engaged in combat with the first one you stumbled into... does the second one then not logically get a surprise round against you since you had no idea it was there?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
wraithstrike wrote:

I agree it ends when you attack, just like it does for invisibility.

So either that attack breaks invis and stealth before or after the attack is resolved.

The difference is this: Invis is broken as a result of a completed action (you haven't attacked until you have done so), Stealth is something you do concurrent with another action:

stealth wrote:
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

So you move and do the opposed check to see if you're noticed due to the movement, which stealth modifies. You can't do that with an attack ("It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging"). This is why the caveat with sniping - you can't use stealth during the bow attack, so you use it immediatly after.

Yea, they've toyed with the idea of making stealth give you an "hidden' status, kind of like invisibility, but they didn't do thay yet. Right now it's just a way to get a mod to the DC of you being noticed when you do something, but not while you attack.

setzer9999 wrote:
In my mind, logically, "re-stealthing" should create the potential for "re-surprise attacking".

Yea, I agree. I think it's bad design to only have the possibility of surprise in the surprise round at the start of combat. I agree the right fix is for surprise to be possible in the middle of a fight too, with stealth as one of the means to accomplish it.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Pawns Subscriber

If you took the feats hellcat stealth (available to all) or hide in plain sight (ranger, shadowdancer and rogue class features), you can use stealth while being observed. So you can just use it on a 5' step or with spring attack, since you need a move action to use stealth.

Diego Rossi, if you invested in the above mentioned feats, which is no light investment, its abolutely legal and possible to get a full attack while the target is denied DEX. It´s not using the flat-footed rules.

If you want to say only for the first attack DEx is denied, then please bring a valid proof in the rules where it says so.
How can you react to anything while it is not your turn?
There is no save for this or whatever.
Some feats allow you to take immediate actions out of your turn, but as far as i know those handle different things, like step up and following and such, or strike back.


mdt wrote:
Just to clarify, my stance on the shooting from concealment (with or without stealth) has always been deny dex, not flat foot. I still maintain that perception checks need to be made, stealth or no stealth, to see someone with concealment who's attacking you from range (sneak attack damage or no).

Why include 'with concealment' in this?

Why not out in the open in plain view, just at a distance that's yelling and screaming at you that you're going to die?

-James


Hayato Ken wrote:


I get the impression some other gentlemen here are not english native speakers like myself actually and there are some misunderstandings due to speech barriers.

Psst, hey friend- take a look at my profile. ;-)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber

This thought experiment might help:

Rogue wants to sneak through the shadows past a guard in the middle of a combat (so nobody is flat footed from not having acted yet).

In his previous action he moved nearby the guard, using the concealment of dim light to use stealth along with his move. Now his next action. It's a new move so requires a new check (This is key - He doesn't carry over the roll from last time to also cover his upcoming action, he makes a new check along with his new action). His new check is a botch. So the guard notices him and reacts, getting an attact of opportunity as the rogue passes.

Now just swap out the second move for an attack. Rather than a botch, he's now prevented from making a stealth check at all, because you can't make a stealth check with an attack action.

In exactly the same way the guard could react to the move action with a botched check, the guard can react to the attack action which no check.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Pawns Subscriber
DrDeth wrote:
Hayato Ken wrote:


I get the impression some other gentlemen here are not english native speakers like myself actually and there are some misunderstandings due to speech barriers.
Psst, hey friend- take a look at my profile. ;-)

Interesting. It´s nice to see older guys waste their time arguing over a fantasy game too :)

@Asphesteros:
You example is 100% right. But absolutley not what the discussion is about.

This would be more like:
The rogue (a halfling) uses the surprise round to go unnoticed ( with the feat go unnoticed). He is now in stealth. In the first round he moves to the enemy sorcerer and makes a stealth check again (move action), he does it because its no empyrial sorcerer, then spends an attack action and gets sneak attack, because the sorcerer is not able to react to the attack and doesn´t get DEX to AC.
(Alternatively he could just have waited next to the sorcerer until round 2, take a 5' step making a stealth check and if he did it do a full attack action, with the same results, no DEX to AC.)
On round 2 (round 3 in alternative example), the halfling rogue would need to do something to be able to do a stealth check again, because he attacked and is now observed.
-bluff to create a diversion to hide
-feinting
-someone comes along to flank
-use hellcat stealth/ hide in plain sight/vanishing trick/ invisible blade
-dirty trick blind combat maneuver
-two other allies threaten the sorcerer and the halfling rogue has gang-up

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Hayato Ken wrote:
So you can just use it on a 5' step

The free, 5' step that don't provoke attacks of opportunity is not a movement action.

Hayato Ken wrote:


If you want to say only for the first attack DEx is denied, then please bring a valid proof in the rules where it says so.
How can you react to anything while it is not your turn?
There is no save for this or whatever.
Some feats allow you to take immediate actions out of your turn, but as far as i know those handle different things, like step up and following and such, or strike back.

Your turn first: try finding something that say that applying your dexterity to AC is any form of action.

If you can't react when it is not your turn, I will circle around your characters and negate their shield. You would get no sawing throw as it is a reaction to my actions. And so on.

There is 1 rule in all the game about when you can't react to an opponent actions, and it states very clearly what you can't do:

PRD wrote:


Flat-Footed: A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Pawns Subscriber

Lol. You´re odd.
Wanna say move actions are only what you find under move action section?
What do you do while taking a 5' step?
Just some random citation:

"Movement
There are three movement scales, as follows:
Tactical, for combat, measured in feet (or 5-foot squares) per round."

"Take 5-Foot Step
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement."

Stealth:
"Action
Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action."

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You really have some problem with English and how rules in a game function.

Read a bit lower in that table:

No Action Attack of Opportunity1
Delay No
5-foot step No

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Pawns Subscriber

Technically you can managegetting SA every round at level 3 as a pure rogue. You only need skill focus stealth, hellcat stealth and your 5'step.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Pawns Subscriber

You senior rossi have a real problem regarding reading and also admitting you don´t get the point. There is no need to get insulting.

Stealth says part of movement, not move action.

"No Action Attack of Opportunity1
Delay No
5-foot step No"

All of this has nothing to do with it.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Pawns Subscriber

I´ll explain it to you again:

You stealth move there and attack. Next round you 5' step stealth and full attack then. Just repeat.

Of course in between you stand there and eat attacks too.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
james maissen wrote:
mdt wrote:
Just to clarify, my stance on the shooting from concealment (with or without stealth) has always been deny dex, not flat foot. I still maintain that perception checks need to be made, stealth or no stealth, to see someone with concealment who's attacking you from range (sneak attack damage or no).

Why include 'with concealment' in this?

Why not out in the open in plain view, just at a distance that's yelling and screaming at you that you're going to die?

-James

Well,

theoretically, they would. However, the DC for that (0 for visible creature in open) + 20 (200 feet) - 15 (screaming at you) = 5, is likely a DC that's automatic. If you've got a MinMax that's dumped wisdom and put nothing into perception, then you're maybe missing even that.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Hayato Ken wrote:

You senior rossi have a real problem regarding reading and also admitting you don´t get the point. There is no need to get insulting.

Stealth says part of movement, not move action.

"No Action Attack of Opportunity1
Delay No
5-foot step No"

All of this has nothing to do with it.

So I am "odd" but you take offence I say that you don't know how the rules function?

To re quote it:

Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action.

Note that last part "doesn't take a separate action". It doesn't mean it is a no action, it mean it don't take a additional action beside the you have use to move.

The sniping rules have a specific meaning to
"However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action."
It mean that you are using a movement action to hide again, but you don't get to move with that action.
You can see that in use in mdt example about attacking from a bind.

You want to read it another way. Shrug, it is your game.

Just to pint it out, in that table:

Move is a Move action

The No action is a 5-foot step. Notice the difference?
It don't call it movement.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Hayato Ken wrote:
So you can just use it on a 5' step

The free, 5' step that don't provoke attacks of opportunity is not a movement action.

It does not need to be a movement action.

Movement action is not the same as movement.

You may withdraw as a full round action and that is certainly movement. As is a 5' step (as quoted by the other poster).

Now you can't have hellcat stealth until 7th as it requires 6 ranks in stealth as well as the skill focus: stealth feat.

-James


mdt wrote:


Well,
theoretically, they would. However, the DC for that (0 for visible creature in open) + 20 (200 feet) - 15 (screaming at you) = 5, is likely a DC that's automatic. If you've got a MinMax that's dumped wisdom and put nothing into perception, then you're maybe missing even that.

It's not a question of how low the DC is, but rather IF a check needs to be made or not.

There are enough things to confuse people, I think it's best to keep it cleaner.

Personally, while I could see a perception check to notice someone just standing around.. if they are attacking you in combat then without a reason for them NOT to be seen I think it 'should' be automatic.

Certainly the archer raining down death at the party is easier to notice than the guy standing the same distance away not moving.

-James

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Pawns Subscriber
james maissen wrote:


Now you can't have hellcat stealth until 7th as it requires 6 ranks in stealth as well as the skill focus: stealth feat.

-James

Right, i forgot about that. Quoting from memory.

Still its 7th level and not 10th like hips.


Hayato Ken wrote:
james maissen wrote:


Now you can't have hellcat stealth until 7th as it requires 6 ranks in stealth as well as the skill focus: stealth feat.

-James

Right, i forgot about that. Quoting from memory.

Still its 7th level and not 10th like hips.

Depends where you're getting hide in plain sight.

A shadow dancer can be doing that at 6th level.

-James

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Pawns Subscriber
james maissen wrote:
Hayato Ken wrote:
james maissen wrote:


Now you can't have hellcat stealth until 7th as it requires 6 ranks in stealth as well as the skill focus: stealth feat.

-James

Right, i forgot about that. Quoting from memory.

Still its 7th level and not 10th like hips.

Depends where you're getting hide in plain sight.

A shadow dancer can be doing that at 6th level.

-James

I was referring to the advanced rogue talent, which is a little better since it doesn´t require shadow, but is limited to a terrain.

I don´t like Prc so much, especially Shadowdancer, but thats another topic.


Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
james maissen wrote:
mdt wrote:


Well,
theoretically, they would. However, the DC for that (0 for visible creature in open) + 20 (200 feet) - 15 (screaming at you) = 5, is likely a DC that's automatic. If you've got a MinMax that's dumped wisdom and put nothing into perception, then you're maybe missing even that.

It's not a question of how low the DC is, but rather IF a check needs to be made or not.

There are enough things to confuse people, I think it's best to keep it cleaner.

Personally, while I could see a perception check to notice someone just standing around.. if they are attacking you in combat then without a reason for them NOT to be seen I think it 'should' be automatic.

Certainly the archer raining down death at the party is easier to notice than the guy standing the same distance away not moving.

-James

Yes, but any bonuses for attacking would have to be GM decided, the perception skill doesn't list anything for it. All it lists is 'visible creature = 0', distance mods, etc. So yeah, a perception roll is required to see someone attacking you. It is a fairly easy one, normally, but if you dump your wisdom and never put anything in to perception....

Shadow Lodge

Quote:
If you took the feats hellcat stealth (available to all) or hide in plain sight (ranger, shadowdancer and rogue class features), you can use stealth while being observed. So you can just use it on a 5' step or with spring attack, since you need a move action to use stealth.

You need to be unobserved AND you need cover/concealment to hide. So your 5 foot step or spring attack has to get you back into something you can hide in even with hellcat stealth.


setzer9999 wrote:


I think I and maybe some others mentioned flat-footedness and such. I don't know if Diego was referring to you when he said that or someone else. Sorry if I muddied the waters, but I was thinking for my home rules that the flat-footed would be if ALL your opponents restealthed... because then other than metagaming with the GM telling you what is going on, how could you know if you are in an "encounter" any more or not. I argue that you wouldn't, and therefore conditions similar to a surprise round are again viable for home rules.

The encounter normally begins when the enemies are away of each other.

The surprise round is a special case.

Quote:

EXCEPT that it states plain as day in stealth that you can't attack when using stealth.

It is not plain as day. It says:

Quote:
It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.

While normally refers to simultaneous activity, not one after the other.

You stealth first. Then you attack.

An example of trying to stealth while attacking follows:

Quote:
Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement...,

This quote alone means that if I charge I can stealth since charging is not running, but since charge is an attack that prevents me from stealthing(lets say I have hide in plain sight) while I am charging and reappearing right in front of my opponent swinging my weapon.

That is an example of using stealth while attacking, and therefore not legal.

I do think that if you could "blink out" and just appear in front of someone it would be cool though. :)

@Hayato Ken:
Your stealth condition ends after the first attack, just like it does for invisibility which basically grants you magical stealth. I do of course think that the first attack makes someone flat-footed. The opponent is no longer unaware of you once you stab him in the face. That is why stealth is broken after the first attack.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Pawns Subscriber

@BNW: Nope. "You may make Stealth checks in normal or bright light even when observed, but at a -10 penalty. "
Special over general, hellcat stealth counts normal or bright light like dim light, thus granting concealment and you can do the check observed.
A very powerfull feat. I even think you can do observed checks in dim light with this, but that is questionable.

@Wraithstrike:
I agree that the stealth condition ends after the first attack.
But the condition of the victim being denied DEX to AC doesn´t end then.
Even if he is aware of you. He cannot act in his round.

Flat footed is technically only in surprise rounds now, rest is called no DEX to AC, but doesn´t matter much.

Also i cannot imagine why PAIZO would make it like that, rogues second or third attacks are already weak. I mean look at the ninjas ability to get a second attack with his ki pool, where would be the sense in that? Having a lot of STR two-handing katana ninjas? All half orcs with byte?

I am pretty sure of this, but perhaps there should finally be official word on this, stealth and sneak attacks, to stop the endless discussions.
I would be glad.


Being denied dex is not a condition. It is a result of other things such as being blind as an example. One the thing that is denying dex ends the AC goes back to normal. Flat-footed is a condition, and that is why it continues to be in effect even after the first attack.

If that(losing stealth did not mean the AC returned to normal) were the case then breaking cover would not end stealth which is one of the problems in the "Jack B Quick" thread.

The hidden condition which is being discussed in the stealth blogs would also not be needed.


Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Another point of difference between Flat Footed and Denied Dex.

You can be denied Dex to a specific opponent (Invisible opponent for example), but have full dex bonus vs another. Flat Footed affects you regardless of opponent.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Pawns Subscriber

So i just asked JJ and got it right.
No iterative sneak attacks from stealth.
Seems like my fault. Never believed that.

BUT: The 5' step is valid for stealth.

Have fun gathering you jaw from the floor Diego :)

Paizo Employee Paizo Glitterati Robot

Removed a post and a reply to it. Really, there's no point in being rude about a rules question. Stop it, plz.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Hayato Ken wrote:

So i just asked JJ and got it right.

No iterative sneak attacks from stealth.
Seems like my fault. Never believed that.

BUT: The 5' step is valid for stealth.

Have fun gathering you jaw from the floor Diego :)

Your position was:

Hayato Ken wrote:
Alernatively you can take skillfocus stealth & hellcat stealth or hide in plain sight and full attack, then take a 5' step and hide again.

I.e. full attack, 5' step and hide using the 5' step as your movement.

Question was:

Hayato Ken wrote:

So there is a real big stealth discussion, im sure everybody knows.

However i have a real urgent question regarding sneak attack.

If a rogue stealthes next to someone, waits there, takes a 5' step next (having hide in plain sight or hellcat stealth or vanishing trick, which wouldnt need the 5' step. lets just say conditions are met)round to use stealth again, then full attacks his victim. Does he get sneak attack only on his first attack or on all iterative attacks?

And that is the exact opposite of your first assertion.

James reply was:

James Jacobs wrote:


Once you make that first attack, you're no longer stealthed. That means that only on your first attack do you get sneak attack.

UNLESS! Your opponent is flat footed.

If you surprise a foe, you can actually make a single sneak attack in that round, then if you beat the foe in initiative on round 1, you go before him and in that case all of your attacks (including the iterative ones) are sneak attacks. And if you can maneuver so you're flanking, then you don't even have to go first to get that.

and again that has nothing to do with your assertion.

So exactly where James as said that you can enter stealth with a 5' step?

The whole discussion was about entering stealth, not about maintaining it.


Diego Rossi wrote:


I.e. full attack, 5' step and hide using the 5' step as your movement.

A 5' step is movement. It just doesn't take a move action to do it. The two are not the synonymous.

A withdraw action is certainly movement, but it is a full round action not a move action as another example for you.

Using stealth is part of movement, not part of a move action. Again there is a distinction.

You could not draw a weapon as a move action and use that action to go into stealth.. or pick something up, stow a shield, etc.

-James

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Possible, but not proved, one way or the other.
While you move during the 5' step, it is not defined as a movement.
I still find very doubtful that you can attack someone and make a couple steps and disappear unless there are very special circumstances.

It that was true you could, starting from a hidden position near a target:
attack once using sneak attack
use your 5' free step and hide again
attack again using a sneak attack again

If you are using 2 weapons and have a way to hide in plain sight or there is a way for you to get concealment from your target you could do that at first level.

You are convinced that what is "working as intended"?


Diego Rossi wrote:

Possible, but not proved, one way or the other.

While you move during the 5' step, it is not defined as a movement.

Actually it's quite clear it's movement. Please look over the rules if you are in doubt.

Perhaps you would allow a paralyzed or otherwise immobile character to make a 5' step, but you would likely be alone there.

But go over the rules and use common sense.. I think most people would qualify moving 5' as movement.

Diego Rossi wrote:


If you are using 2 weapons and have a way to hide in plain sight or there is a way for you to get concealment from your target you could do that at first level.

You are convinced that what is "working as intended"?

Without hide in plain sight you would need to obtain full cover or concealment. Best of luck obtaining it without the target being effectively blind.

Sounds like you are confusing how stealth works. Simple concealment is just enough to maintain stealth while you are already unobserved.

-James


Diego Rossi wrote:

stuff

Hayato Ken wrote:

stuff

I must say you two got me completely lost. I do not know what you are talking about anymore - hiding while attacking, attacking from stealth, maintaining stealth while attacking, actions... :-P

Something that seems to be a misunderstanding though are the different action and movement types.
Diego, you wrote:

Diego Rossi wrote:

Possible, but not proved, one way or the other.

While you move during the 5' step, it is not defined as a movement. ...

A 5-foot step counts as movement. It just does not cost a move action.

If you move more than 5 feet, it costs you a move action and you do not get a 5-foot step.
Stealthing costs, I believe, a move action. So you cannot attack twice with stealth because the first attack breaks your stealth (standard action), then it takes a move action to hide, so you have no standard action left to attack again :-)


No stealth requires movement not a move action.


Sangalor wrote:


Stealthing costs, I believe, a move action.

No, it doesn't rather under action for stealth we find:

SRD wrote:


Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action.

Now in almost all circumstances a 5' step is not sufficient to obtain full concealment to allow one to 're-stealth' from being observed. Heck in many circumstances full concealment might not be within a double move for the character.

-James

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
PRD wrote:
Concealment and Stealth Checks: You can use concealment to make a Stealth check. Without concealment, you usually need cover to make a Stealth check.
PRD wrote:
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.

No, actually stealth don't require full concealment. And that why we have people claiming that blur is sufficient to try a stealth check.

a) So, outdoor at night and you can try a stealth check.
b) Get darkvision and you can get a sneak attack
c) You can take a 5' step between attacks
d) You can try a stealth check when moving
e) c) and d) say that a 5' step is sufficient to try to hide at night.

So if you are hidden at the start of the round and your target is adjacent, following that logic you can:
attack and get a sneak attack
5' step and hide
attack again and get another sneak attack


Diego Rossi wrote:


PRD wrote:
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth.

No, actually stealth don't require full concealment. And that why we have people claiming that blur is sufficient to try a stealth check.

A few things:

First it's 'No, actually stealth doesn't require full concealment'

For that you would be correct, except it requires you to be unobserved which is a status relative to a potential viewer that can be maintained despite them obtaining line of sight to the skulker via the use of the stealth skill.

-James

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Pawns Subscriber

I talked about iterative sneak attacks, what proved to be wrong.

And i said that you can use 5' step to stealth.
Even in combat if you have a feat like hellcat stealth or hide in plain sight.
Or if you make a bluff check for distraction, but then you also need concealment/cover. For concealment 20% from dim light are enough. Also blur spell or simple fog.

I pointed all the rules for this out somewhere above.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

@Hayato
You said that you can make a 5' step from stealth and do a sneak attack. That is what I have argued against.
Completely different from being hidden and entering combat with a 5' step, that is what you asked.
Changing the question change the answer.
James didn't replied about the observed -> do a 5' step and enter stealth.

My position is that, as 5' step is a no action that you can take while doing other action using it don't break your stealth simply because you are not doing any action, the action is attacking and that break stealth.
For the same line of reasoning if you are detected a 5' step alone is a no action and should not allow you to hide.

To add to that the 5' step can be a part of the attack, so even if it did break stealth it would be while you are attacking, not before. That would still allow you to make a sneak attack as the first attack.
The "observable stimulus" cited in the perception skill is the attack, not the 5' step.

@James,
that is not my position, or how I am using it.
As far as I get it, it is what Hayato is arguing.
He specify it work with hide in plain sight or equivalent abilities, and yesterday it was late enough that I did muddle that point.

Separated from what Hayato is saying:
As far as I can see it the rules say that concealment is sufficient to find an unobserved position.
As the rules don't give a definition of "concealed" we should go with the dictionary definition:

"Concealed: (a.) Hidden; kept from sight; secreted."

As far as I can see it, that cover the need to be unobserved.

My position is that a guy outside at night, even if detected, can use an action to try to hide as he is concealed, but it require more that the 5 foot step free action.

It require that:
1) he did use an action that allow some form of movement
2) he did move at least a bit

I suppose your position is that being concealed is totally negated by being observed and so you need to find total concealment to hide again.

Hide in plain sight allow you to hide when you are observed, i.e. when you don't benefit from concealment.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It is heavy ROI territory, so I would keep this post separated, but I feel that the Stephen Radney-MacFarland, from his August and September blogs, somewhat share my opinion that darkness or concealment is sufficient to hide:

From his blogs:

August blog wrote:
Creating a Diversion to Hide: If you do not have cover or concealment, as a standard action, you can attempt a Bluff check opposed by the Perception of opponents that can see you. On a success, you become invisible to those creatures and can move up to half your speed. When you do this, you take a –10 penalty on the Bluff check.
September blog wrote:
Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. If you do not have cover or concealment, as a swift action, you can attempt a Bluff check opposed by the Sense Motive of opponents that can see you. If you are successful, you are considered to have concealment from those creatures (but you do not gain the percent miss chance from concealment) until the end of your next action, you make an attack (as defined in the Attacking while Hidden section, above), or the end of your turn, whichever happens first.

It is not evidence about current RAW in any way, but he say that you don’t have concealment from someone that see you, you can get it using a bluff check.

If you can’t hide with normal concealment it would be useless.


I think I'm with mdt on this... sort of.

Hearing the sound of battle (and assumedly the sight of battle as well) is a -10 DC to Perception. In open melee combat, anyone not trying to Stealth within 100 ft would be a 0 DC or less to notice, thus being an automatic success (barring penalties or other effects).

Taking mdt's scenario of the 200-ft distance shooter, Perception DC = 0 (base) + 20 (distance) = 20 or more, depending on rulings. If the person making the check is in melee combat, that could easily count as being distracted (+5 DC), the shooter standing behind bushes, tall grasses, etc. could give either unfavorable or terrible (+2 or +5 DC), so final Perception check DC would be between 20 and 30, and that's just with the person standing there doing nothing.

Essentially, by choosing not to roll Stealth a character accepts a 0 total. Rolled or not, the Perception penalties for distance and conditions get added to their Stealth total, so we're back to the 20-30 DC. As mentioned previously, noticing battle gives a -10 DC, and changing from "hidden in bushes" to "arrow came from that direction" could make it favorable conditions (-2 DC), so that drops the Perception DC to between 8 and 13. In most cases this will be an easy check, but still require a roll without someone with ranks in Perception. I'd rule that within 5 of the DC, the character would know the general direction but not the location, and lower than that they're clueless.

Taking someone that doesn't have much skill in Stealth attempting to hide after making the same shot, they could very well end up with a -10 total, which would drop the above Perception DC between -2 and 3, which would almost certainly be automatic for many characters. Thus, an unskilled (or poorly skilled) character trying to hide can easily make themselves easier to spot than if they simply stayed put. This makes a lot of sense to me.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
Hayato Ken wrote:

@Asphesteros:

You example is 100% right. But absolutley not what the discussion is about.

This would be more like:
The rogue (a halfling) uses the surprise round to go unnoticed ( with the feat go unnoticed). He is now in stealth. In the first round he moves to the enemy sorcerer and makes a stealth check again (move action), he does it because its no empyrial sorcerer, then spends an attack action and gets sneak attack....

emph mine

This bit is the important part though. By raw the rogue is NOT in stealth during the attack action, because per the rules on stealth:

stealth skill wrote:
It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking

While you can use stealth during a move, so if the rogue wanted to move out of a sorcerer's threatened square, he could make a stealth check to remain unnoticed, and avoid the AOO, BUT he can't gain the benefit of a stealth check while he attacks because you can't use stealth while attacking.

The point's relevant because that line in the stealth rules makes a lot of the other discussion moot.

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