Is it a witch, is it a warlock, is it AM in a fetching wig?


Off-Topic Discussions

Sovereign Court

So, we were asked to take the witch warlock discussion elsewhere.

I have always been fascinated by etymology so...

The earliest thing I can find is c.890

Ða fæmnan þe gewuniað onfon gealdorcræftigan & scinlæcan & wiccan, ne læt þu ða libban

My impression is that you might occasionally call a man a witch but common usage is that it is female and if you use witch without attaching gender in another way then you should expect others to assume female.

Warlock appears to have evolved from other sources to mean 'male witch' in the 16th century and quickly moved beyond scottish usage.

So... Witch has over a thousands years of female lineage and the gendered witch/warlock split is over 500 years old.


I never claimed warlock didn't mean male witch. My claim is that it isn't the only word that means so, and therefore that to say it is THE word for a male witch is misleading. The word witchcraft was often applied to both genders, and a male witch was as likely to be called a wizard or sorcerer as a warlock.

The Exchange

not that I want to be in the debate, but a warlock is an oathbreaker. Not a male witch.

Silver Crusade

It was also thought to be derived from the Norse word that meant summoner of spirits, which would make it fully appropriate for what many people have proposed that a Pathfinder warlock should be.

The Exchange

a better name for the summoner?

Silver Crusade

Well one thought is that warlock could be a summoner archetype. However, I was thinking more like a 20 level base class version of the Diabolist PrC.


Yay, etymology (as opposed to entomology)! Before we continue, I do think it necessary to recognize that what we think of as "witch" is just as sullied, linguistically, as "warlock". There's some etymological ties to 'wicca' but what most people think of when they think of that word is an invented faith created by Gerald Gardner in the 50s/60s.

If we're going to go with "common usage", please can we reference the post I made in the old thread regarding that? I already addressed this. Given that, the prescriptivist 'oath breaker' meaning of warlock is trumped by what popular culture has adapted the term to be: a magic-user who typically derives their powers from demonic or other evil sources.

Really, if you're going to argue for one point of view or the other (and take a prescriptivist or descriptivist perspective), it helps to be consistent. :)

Sovereign Court

Chris Nehren wrote:
Before we continue, I do think it necessary to recognize that what we think of as "witch" is just as sullied, linguistically, as "warlock". There's some etymological ties to 'wicca' but what most people think of when they think of that word is an invented faith created by Gerald Gardner in the 50s/60s.

No. Wrongness and lies.

What 'most people' think of as witch can be traced back to Shakesepeare's Macbeth and involved women with pointy hats, broomsticks, odd skin and warts on their noses.

The Wiccan faith very obscure and unusual, it does not define the word witch for the vast majority of people.

As far as I can tell 99% of 'confusion' about the word witch is a product of modern religious propaganda seeking desperately to redefine a word which has outgrown its usefulness when they originally piggy-backed the word to grow their early popularity: it is all about a group that has outgrown its original propaganda and is desperately trying to redefine it through a process known as... lies.

What we think of as witch is over a thousand years old and goes back to the earliest sources of the word. The most famous witches are in Macbeth and Wizard of Oz.

And... Warlock has meant 'male witch' for 500 years... 500 years as old as Columbus. The other meanings are earlier and have died out.

The sad thing is that these are the obvious 'normal' interpretations of the word: why deny that? Are we all just showing off how much more clever than we are than 'normal' folk?

It stinks.


I thuoght witches come from the malleus maleficardicum which was written by the inquistion.


GeraintElberion wrote:

The sad thing is that these are the obvious 'normal' interpretations of the word: why deny that? Are we all just showing off how much more clever than we are than 'normal' folk?

It stinks.

I never denied it. Warlock DOES mean male witch. The issue is that wizard or sorcerer was as likely to be banded about as warlock. It is therefore not correct to say that it is THE word for a male witch, as it isn't. It is A word for a male witch, among other words used for the same purpose.


The Online Etymology Dictionary is a fine place to research the origins and of words and how their meanings have changed. Searching sorcerer will turn up links to the other words involved in this discussion as well.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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I'm in favor not changing the name of a class based on the gender of the character, regardless of traditional linguistic usage.

Wizards are wizards, no matter what bits they have. Witches should be the same.


Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:


I'm in favor not changing the name of a class based on the gender of the character, regardless of traditional linguistic usage.

Wizards are wizards, no matter what bits they have. Witches should be the same.

The witch / warlock debate came up when someone mentioned they would rather Paizo not use "warlock" as a class name because it was a name for male witch iirc. He was berated for it and now it has it's own thread :) It has nothing to do with changing class names due to gender. It's just about the etymology of the terms.

Silver Crusade

R_Chance wrote:
The witch / warlock debate came up when someone mentioned they would rather Paizo not use "warlock" as a class name because it was a name for male witch iirc. He was berated for it and now it has it's own thread :)

That's about the sum of it. People in the thread asked that the debate be moved to it's own thread, so here we are.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

R_Chance wrote:
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:


I'm in favor not changing the name of a class based on the gender of the character, regardless of traditional linguistic usage.

Wizards are wizards, no matter what bits they have. Witches should be the same.

The witch / warlock debate came up when someone mentioned they would rather Paizo not use "warlock" as a class name because it was a name for male witch iirc. He was berated for it and now it has it's own thread :) It has nothing to do with changing class names due to gender. It's just about the etymology of the terms.

Ah, roger. I was getting the vibe of the original disagreement from the thread, then.

I think that keeping 'warlock' around for a class or an archetype name is one of the best reasons not to call manwitches 'warlocks'. Coming up with cool new class/archetype/prestige class names is only getting harder, let's not waste the good ones on silly stuff like gender-specific titles.


While this thread appears to be an interesting debate I have no interest in the topic. Why I started reading it? I can't say. Anyways, I'll take my leave.

The Exchange

I just call the male practitioners of witchcraft Farglenoozles... I mean who the hell cares anyway. ;)


GeraintElberion wrote:

No. Wrongness and lies.

What 'most people' think of as witch can be traced back to Shakesepeare's Macbeth and involved women with pointy hats, broomsticks, odd skin and warts on their noses.

The Wiccan faith very obscure and unusual, it does not define the word witch for the vast majority of people.

Eep. I think you misread my post, specifically what 'that' was referencing. I was referencing that what is commonly referred to as 'wicca' was invented by Mr. Gardner--not what we think of as 'witch'. Yes, you are right with the common meaning of the word 'witch', and I am reminded of Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Also, I only mentioned 'wicca' for the etymology (which was quoted back in the old thread), nothing to do with the faith itself. Sorry for the confusion, Geraint.

GeraintElberion wrote:

And... Warlock has meant 'male witch' for 500 years... 500 years as old as Columbus. The other meanings are earlier and have died out.

It has had that meaning for that time, yes. But that's not the only meaning it has had over that period of time. I don't think we're disagreeing, just that I am trying to espouse a modern descriptivist point of view to balance your traditional prescriptivist.

... how ironic, considering I was firmly in the traditional prescriptivist camp not even two years ago. But I digress.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

I thought a Warlock was the son of a Magus...


Matthew Morris wrote:
I thought a Warlock was the son of a Magus...

So he's half-gish on his poppa's side?

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