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Changes for Guide 4.2


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

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Shadow Lodge *** Star Voter 2013

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Feral wrote:

My biggest wish:

Implement some sort of way for characters of all levels to rebuild/retrain.

I would add that I love this idea, as long as it is not somthing that is easy and free. Maybe every few levels, or it costs an XP or something. Particularly with all the paperwork that must be accounted for later, this could be a real trap if it is too easy.

**** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 , Star Voter 2013

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Beckett wrote:
Feral wrote:

My biggest wish:

Implement some sort of way for characters of all levels to rebuild/retrain.

I would add that I love this idea, as long as it is not somthing that is easy and free. Maybe every few levels, or it costs an XP or something. Particularly with all the paperwork that must be accounted for later, this could be a real trap if it is too easy.

Ugh. No. Not unles it was really expensive (like raise dead prestige cost level expensive). I'm not a fan of allowing people to rebuild a character every time a new book comes out. Besides, wouldn't that cheapen classes that have retraining options?

***** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Atlanta aka CRobledo

Beckett wrote:
Feral wrote:

My biggest wish:

Implement some sort of way for characters of all levels to rebuild/retrain.

I would add that I love this idea, as long as it is not somthing that is easy and free. Maybe every few levels, or it costs an XP or something. Particularly with all the paperwork that must be accounted for later, this could be a real trap if it is too easy.

No thank you from me either. I feel this would just make GMs having to spend more time auditing player sheets. Right now when I play with another local player I have played with before I already know how they play their character and can start to plan accordingly. With more rebuilds I would have to ask every time I played if he changed anything.

Mike has stated that level 1 rebuilds are coming. Let's leave it at that.

Shadow Lodge ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Beckett wrote:
Feral wrote:

My biggest wish:

Implement some sort of way for characters of all levels to rebuild/retrain.

I would add that I love this idea, as long as it is not somthing that is easy and free. Maybe every few levels, or it costs an XP or something. Particularly with all the paperwork that must be accounted for later, this could be a real trap if it is too easy.

Another in the please no category. We are already getting level 1 rebuilds; dealing with players deciding at level 8 that their "build sucks" and letting them do a rebuild not only ruins the verisimilitude of the game and promotes play I personally dont want to see.

If you even consider this, I hope it requires expending every last point of PA (or even fame).

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ryan Bolduan wrote:
Beckett wrote:
Feral wrote:

My biggest wish:

Implement some sort of way for characters of all levels to rebuild/retrain.

I would add that I love this idea, as long as it is not somthing that is easy and free. Maybe every few levels, or it costs an XP or something. Particularly with all the paperwork that must be accounted for later, this could be a real trap if it is too easy.

Another in the please no category. We are already getting level 1 rebuilds; dealing with players deciding at level 8 that their "build sucks" and letting them do a rebuild not only ruins the verisimilitude of the game and promotes play I personally dont want to see.

If you even consider this, I hope it requires expending every last point of PA (or even fame).

No one's even mentioned the biggest issue with this yet:

Everyone will play martial characters for the first few levels, then rebuild into casters who would've been too squishy to survive at low levels.

Shadow Lodge *****

I as well am against total rebuilds ... tho being able to change some racial traits based on the release of the ARG I could see myself being lenient twords ... but thats about as far as it goes

* Dedicated Voter 2013, Marathon Voter 2014

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think that 1st level rebuilds are good. It helps out new players a lot, and even helps experienced players who have decided that they want to play something completely different but absolutely, positively need the same name and character.

Above 1st level there should be no rebuilds, nor should there be rebuilds to add new options to existing characters. You can always start a new character, and not being able to do that because of race boons is really kind of a corner case. Part of the game involves planning advancement. The 1st level rebuild helps new players grasp that and experienced players I would think already plan out builds at several levels to make sure they work.

Silver Crusade ****

I say look at full rebuilds maybe for 5.0. I allow limited rebuilds in my home game if the argument is well founded on why the rebuild should be allowed. Each was based off a new book adding an archetype that fit the character that was well defined before that book came out. That's difficult to do to the level I personally would require in a PFS setting.

Shadow Lodge *** Star Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014

Beckett wrote:
Feral wrote:

My biggest wish:

Implement some sort of way for characters of all levels to rebuild/retrain.

I would add that I love this idea, as long as it is not somthing that is easy and free. Maybe every few levels, or it costs an XP or something. Particularly with all the paperwork that must be accounted for later, this could be a real trap if it is too easy.

Agreed, though I think it being free only at first level is okay.

Another thing. About a year ago you put out subdomains for everyone (i.e. minor gods). I would like to see inquisitions for everyone (when you get around to in in your copious amounts of free time).

Also, a page that includes things like this in 4.2 guide.


Jeff Mahood wrote:
Guide 4.2 won't have any of the stuff in the first paragraph I quoted here. That information is in the Core Rulebooks, not the Guide to Organized Play, and it doesn't belong in the latter. It's about organizing Game Rules and stuff, not about how to play in the Organized Play campaign.

Why couldn't an index be in the Guide, since such doesn't exist in the Core Books? Or if that exercise is too extensive or out-of-bounds (in which case please submit this request to those that will update the Core Books someday), then perhaps just more detailed indexes for those sections related to PFS organized play.

Jeff Mahood wrote:
For what it's worth, I do empathize with you - I do look for places that have complete feat trees and spell lists all in one place. A side project of mine is to accumulate those things in a searchable database, so I understand your pain. (Accumulated Spell Lists, though, are already available in the PRD under the Index.)

I just found the PRD yesterday, and am finding it helpful. But I can't tell if all the books are included yet or not. It appears not, so it appears to be not as complete as D20PFS.com.

Liberty's Edge ****

I'm not suggesting we let people swap whole character builds or even class levels, but some measure of compromise would be good.

First level rebuilds aren't enough. People that are still very new to Pathfinder and PFS can have characters at any level. Telling them, "Sorry, you need to start all over if you want to make changes to your character" seems like a really bad model.

Also, the release of new content should never discourage people from playing. I had a character that I skipped playing for almost a month because Ultimate Combat was coming out in the near future.

**** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 , Star Voter 2013

Feral wrote:

I'm not suggesting we let people swap whole character builds or even class levels, but some measure of compromise would be good.

First level rebuilds aren't enough. People that are still very new to Pathfinder and PFS can have characters at any level. Telling them, "Sorry, you need to start all over if you want to make changes to your character" seems like a really bad model.

Also, the release of new content should never discourage people from playing. I had a character that I skipped playing for almost a month because Ultimate Combat was coming out in the near future.

Splitting topic as to not clutter the thread.

**** Venture-Lieutenant, Canada—Ontario aka Feegle

TriMarkC wrote:
Jeff Mahood wrote:
Guide 4.2 won't have any of the stuff in the first paragraph I quoted here. That information is in the Core Rulebooks, not the Guide to Organized Play, and it doesn't belong in the latter. It's about organizing Game Rules and stuff, not about how to play in the Organized Play campaign.
Why couldn't an index be in the Guide, since such doesn't exist in the Core Books? Or if that exercise is too extensive or out-of-bounds (in which case please submit this request to those that will update the Core Books someday), then perhaps just more detailed indexes for those sections related to PFS organized play.

I'm not saying it COULDN'T be in the Guide, just that that's not where it belongs. There are a couple of reasons:

1) The GtOP is designed to specify the differences between Organized Play and Home Games. An "index" doesn't fit in it.

2) The GtOP is already much bigger than it should be. Think about this: A new player shows up at your game night. "Hey, can I play?" "Sure. Have a seat. BTW, if you want to create your own character, here's a 50-page document that you should read."

3) The GtOP is not a living document; the intent is to update it once a year based on questions that have been asked and answered. That's once a year it adds all the new feats, spells, and so on - this is a momentous undertaking, and Mike and Mark already have their hands full. In general, putting these indices anywhere that isn't online and easy to update is a bad idea - as soon as the next book is published, it's out of date.

Jeff Mahood wrote:
For what it's worth, I do empathize with you - I do look for places that have complete feat trees and spell lists all in one place. A side project of mine is to accumulate those things in a searchable database, so I understand your pain. (Accumulated Spell Lists, though, are already available in the PRD under the Index.)
I just found the PRD yesterday, and am finding it helpful. But I can't tell if all the books are included yet or not. It appears not, so it appears to be not as complete as D20PFS.com.

The PRD doesn't contain any information from the Campaign Setting line (or the Player Companion Line, I think) - it's just the Pathfinder RolePlaying Game line, which is why it looks incomplete compared to the third-party website.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Michael Brock wrote:
This thread is not to debate changes, just to list them. Thanks for your help.

Shadow Lodge ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jeff Mahood wrote:

I'm not saying it COULDN'T be in the Guide, just that that's not where it belongs. There are a couple of reasons:

1) The GtOP is designed to specify the differences between Organized Play and Home Games. An "index" doesn't fit in it.

2) The GtOP is already much bigger than it should be. Think about this: A new player shows up at your game night. "Hey, can I play?" "Sure. Have a seat. BTW, if you want to create your own character, here's a 50-page document that you should read."

3) The GtOP is not a living document; the intent is to update it once a year based on questions that have been asked and answered. That's once a year it adds all the new feats, spells, and so on - this is a momentous undertaking, and Mike and Mark already have their hands full. In general, putting these indices anywhere that isn't online and easy to update is a bad idea - as soon as the next book is published, it's out of date.

I would strongly suggest listening to the "Know Direction" podcast from this last week. Very informative interview with Mike that speaks to this directly.

Shadow Lodge *** Star Voter 2013

Know Directon #41


Back on topic,
pg 15 - "but does not alter your faction
does not alter your Fame score." should probably be "but does not alter your Fame score."

Also, shouldn't the Tomb Raider trait on page 12 give you a trait bonus rather than the current untyped bonus?

Liberty's Edge *

Ryan Bolduan wrote:
Beckett wrote:
Feral wrote:

My biggest wish:

Implement some sort of way for characters of all levels to rebuild/retrain.

I would add that I love this idea, as long as it is not somthing that is easy and free. Maybe every few levels, or it costs an XP or something. Particularly with all the paperwork that must be accounted for later, this could be a real trap if it is too easy.

Another in the please no category. We are already getting level 1 rebuilds; dealing with players deciding at level 8 that their "build sucks" and letting them do a rebuild not only ruins the verisimilitude of the game and promotes play I personally dont want to see.

If you even consider this, I hope it requires expending every last point of PA (or even fame).

Easier just to start over with a new PC...

Shadow Lodge *** Star Voter 2013

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I don't know, I'm torn. I am fully behind rebuilds due to new material being opened up, rules changes, and issues with this. I personally hate the retroactiveness, but what can you do.

I'm not so much a fan of either easy rebuilds, (even for Fighters and Sorcerers where it is built in), or changing an aspect that a player just turns out not to like. That's what the starter adventures are kind of for, and I understand that newer players are newer players, but at the same time, they should have had someone there to help and guide them and that is how people learn.

I might suggest, At level up, paying your last 2 gained PP to be able to change a single option (that is gained from a Level Up besides Class or Race). Basically a Single Skill Point, a Single Feat (that is not a prereq for anything), and Favord Class Bonus, (possibly a racial ability selection).

Having a cost will prevent it from being used overly much, and I do think (if allowed) should be restricted a lot. Obviously, this is seperate to character rebuilds when rules change or whatever.

Scarab Sages ***

Take the pet rules out of the faq and put them in the guide so new people can find them.

Paizo Employee ***** Global Organized Play Coordinator

Hi all. Thanks for all the feedback. The Guide 4.2 is in its final review and edit. I'm locking this thread now.

Paizo Employee ***** Global Organized Play Coordinator

Hi all. The Guide 4.2 is in its final review and edit. Thanks for all the feedback. Without all of you, we couldn't have made the next Guide the best one yet. I think you are going to truly appreciate the new layout and the clarification and tightening up of the rules. We will open a new one of these threads once it is released so we can start looking towards Guide 4.3 or 5.0.

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