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I'm trying to think of a legitimate scenario in a PFS mod which would result in a martial type irrevocably losing their weapon with no chance to try to get it back. I'm coming up with nothing. The worst that I can think is that either the character will have to pay for a Make Whole of sufficient caster level or they will have to follow the enemies back to their lair to recover the item.
Am I forgetting a bunch of scenarios where the tactics say to actually steal the PCs gear and then never appear again?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'm trying to think of a legitimate scenario in a PFS mod which would result in a martial type irrevocably losing their weapon with no chance to try to get it back. I'm coming up with nothing. The worst that I can think is that either the character will have to pay for a Make Whole of sufficient caster level or they will have to follow the enemies back to their lair to recover the item.
Am I forgetting a bunch of scenarios where the tactics say to actually steal the PCs gear and then never appear again?
Well I rolled for scatter when Amnesia threw her morning star through the aquarium in First Steps 3. I told her that if it fell into the water, she wouldn't be able to find it.
Earlier she threw bolas and the morning star in the swamp. I said she was able to find them w/o a roll. (she found the bolas wrapped around a tree, having killed a poor helpless tree frog in the process.)
On losing weapons:
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Getting weapons destroyed is different from losing them, since paying for a Make Whole is within the cost range of all the other spells that characters might have to shell out for at the end of a scenario. The cleric if any could even do it for free if they ask nicely.
That is a whole different order of magnitude from saying "Nope, your sword is stolen/sunk to the bottom of the sea/on Akiton now. You have to buy another one at full price." I have never seen a chance for the last one to happen in any of the mods or scenarios that I have read, but I might have missed something.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I just don't see a way to make this workable without either rewarding players who are behind the curve due to poor play or asking the GM to make judgement calls on whether or not to award any bonus.
Either of these, in my opinion, introduces a bigger problem than misfortune introduced by the roll of the dice.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Characters who fall unconscious fall prone and drop everything they're carrying. Depending on where they are at the time (say, swimming in an ocean or balancing on stones sticking out of a swift river) they might well lose their weapons.
--+--
The most extreme case of underfunded PCs I've seen is a 2nd level witch with a dead familiar and insufficient funds to call a replacement.
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Characters who fall unconscious fall prone and drop everything they're carrying. Depending on where they are at the time (say, swimming in an ocean or balancing on stones sticking out of a swift river) they might well lose their weapons.
This is what weapon cords are for. I rarely actually use them, all my weapon dependent characters have one, and precipice dangling situations are where they can really save your bacon.
One of the gaping holes of material that PF is still missing is an equivalent to the 3.5 weapon enhancement that lets you call the weapon to your hand. I was a big fan of that one. Maybe in Ultimate Equipment they can fix that.
These situations are what DM credit is for. I'm sure that it gets a lot of otherwise unplayable characters back on their feet. Also, all of the PFS characters that I have encountered have been significantly ahead of the wealth curve for whatever reason, so I would find it hard to believe that someone could wind up that far under the the wealth curve without either the player or the DM doing things pretty wrong.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Rob, all the rules say is that unconscious characters are knocked out and helpless. They don't even say that unconscious characters fall prone, nor that they are no longer aware of the world around them. I categorize this along with "Can horses climb rope?" If there's an underlying fantasy world that we're using to tell stories, then --baring magic -- unconscious characters act like unconscious people. They fall over, and their muscles relax.
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Characters who fall unconscious fall prone and drop everything they're carrying. Depending on where they are at the time (say, swimming in an ocean or balancing on stones sticking out of a swift river) they might well lose their weapons.This is what weapon cords are for. I rarely actually use them, all my weapon dependent characters have one, and precipice dangling situations are where they can really save your bacon.
One of the gaping holes of material that PF is still missing is an equivalent to the 3.5 weapon enhancement that lets you call the weapon to your hand. I was a big fan of that one. Maybe in Ultimate Equipment they can fix that.
These situations are what DM credit is for. I'm sure that it gets a lot of otherwise unplayable characters back on their feet. Also, all of the PFS characters that I have encountered have been significantly ahead of the wealth curve for whatever reason, so I would find it hard to believe that someone could wind up that far under the the wealth curve without either the player or the DM doing things pretty wrong.
Let's see. Situations I have seen where you can lose a weapon or other item, or all items, permanently:
Any sea-born adventure, since it is entirely possible to lose items overboard.Adventures (all too many) where you have to cross a river, especially a fast moving river, and while it doesn't say so, I would suspect that finding a lost weapon or item would be difficult to do (First Steps Part 3 is an example)
What happens to the party's items when you have a TPK? Do you handwave away the stuff on the bodies being recoverable with the bodies, or does whoever or whatever killed them get to loot their bodies?
It doesn't take much for a PC to have a significant portion of the wealth tied up in a single item, either. That Sunder expert is going to want his weapon to be both adamantine, and have the highest basic enhancement as possible. The archer will have a significant amount of hir money bound up in that fancy bow. That monk will have a significant investment in that Amulet of Mighty Fists. The Wizard with his heavily enhanced bonded item. And so forth.
In old 3.5, you not only lost money, you lost experience, and had the overall effect of keeping WbL fairly close to actual level. In PFRPG, getting raised is a straight hit in the WbL, without any way to compensate for it.
Even at higher levels, 24k gp is fairly fierce. At the lower levels, it can, literally, bankrupt a PC to do that.
As to GM Credit? You have to be ready, willing and able to GM, AND you have to have people who are willing to play with you as their GM. Heh. I don't even want to think about how long I have been creeping toward my second star, now. How much real-world money I have burned setting up games that insufficient people showed up for to run. Meh.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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In old 3.5, you not only lost money, you lost experience, and had the overall effect of keeping WbL fairly close to actual level. In PFRPG, getting raised is a straight hit in the WbL, without any way to compensate for it.
Even at higher levels, 24k gp is fairly fierce. At the lower levels, it can, literally, bankrupt a PC to do that.
So what happens if you pay for the raise dead, but not for the restoration?
Does a level 6 character with one permanent negative level count as level 6 or level 5? If it were to be treated as level 5, that would go some way to correcting the WbL.
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In old 3.5, you not only lost money, you lost experience, and had the overall effect of keeping WbL fairly close to actual level. In PFRPG, getting raised is a straight hit in the WbL, without any way to compensate for it.
Even at higher levels, 24k gp is fairly fierce. At the lower levels, it can, literally, bankrupt a PC to do that.
So what happens if you pay for the raise dead, but not for the restoration?
Does a level 6 character with one permanent negative level count as level 6 or level 5? If it were to be treated as level 5, that would go some way to correcting the WbL.
That's two Restorations, by the way, not just one.
And the character would still be level 6, just with 2 permanent negative levels, -10 to max hit points, -2 to most D20 rolls. Just ugly. A purely support PC could probably get away with it, but once you get into making saves, skill rolls or attacks, it starts to hurt, with a 10% penalty to your chances of success for every roll. And he still has to play in tier 5-9s, not 1-5s.
And, of course, once you start having to pay actual gold for raise/restorations, instead of PP, it starts to compound. Your gear starts ot lose ground, and that makes another death more likely, which causes your gear to take another hit, until either you run out of money and saleable gear, or just retire the character due to inability to handle at-level challenges.
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Let's see. Situations I have seen where you can lose a weapon or other item, or all items, permanently:
Any sea-born adventure, since it is entirely possible to lose items overboard.Adventures (all too many) where you have to cross a river, especially a fast moving river, and while it doesn't say so, I would suspect that finding a lost weapon or item would be difficult to do (First Steps Part 3 is an example)
This is why I mentioned that weapon cords are important. Also, I'm not sure why characters would need to cross the river, in First Steps 3 specifically, without their weapons and gear secured in case they fall in.
What happens to the party's items when you have a TPK? Do you handwave away the stuff on the bodies being recoverable with the bodies, or does whoever or whatever killed them get to loot their bodies?
Woudl you really say "no, even though you spent 5PA for body recovery and 16PA for a Raise, you character is still done for because I say that they can't find your gear." to a player who was just part of a TKP? That is absolutely not appropriate. Think of all the faction missions which are essentially "find X item that pathfinder Y had on them when they died." You get your gear back when you get a body recovery.
It doesn't take much for a PC to have a significant portion of the wealth tied up in a single item, either. That Sunder expert is going to want his weapon to be both adamantine, and have the highest basic enhancement as possible. The archer will have a significant...
My point is that when characters are as far ahead of the WBL curve as I have observed, and they have relatively little prestige compared to cash, then by the PA table, it is virtually impossible for this to happen. I have spend far more time sitting with a bunch of gold waiting for the prestige to buy what I want rather than the other way around.
The long and short of it is that unless the DM is specifically out to f@#* over the characters, complete item loss requiring replacement should virtually never happen.
As to GM Credit? You have to be ready, willing and able to GM, AND you have to have people who are willing to play with you as their GM. Heh. I don't even want to think about how long I have been creeping toward my second star, now. How much real-world money I have burned setting up games that insufficient people showed up for to run. Meh.
I am in a place where I play solely online, and I have seen that there is an acute dearth of DMs. I find it hard to believe that you can;t find a setting in which to DM when you want to give back to the campaign by running some games. The idea that there are huge numbers of games that do not fill is basically exactly the opposite of what is the case in every place that I have played.
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Indeed. I did not mean to spark a debate it this thread.
I would like to clarify my prior post. I want to see added to the guide a little paragraph that explains that in the rare instance where a piece of equipment that a player brings into a scenario is lost/stolen/sundered during the course of the scenario, that item is returned to the player at the conclusion of the scenario. “This system, while not necessarily realistic, ensures that all players have a fair and equitable chance” at maintaining “the items that best suit their characters’ specific needs.”
This is the logical counterpart to the balanced economy already in place and protects from the significantly under funded/powered characters, as we are already protecting ourselves from the significantly over funded/powered characters. Given the wide variety of experiences and people in PFS, it also protects players from the occasional vindictive GM, or other unusual circumstances. In a home game, a GM could help a player out if they find themselves is such a situation. The way the PFS economy works, it specifically prevents a GM from helping out an under funded player.
Let me be clear, I do understand that the situations where this would come into play are rare. But I would hate for a Player to be turned off to PFS because their character suffers a debilitating economic setback.
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Just drop the deities as a requirement for anyone and let the players choose if they want to. I like the retraining idea, but honeslty, I both aa level one character is fairly easy to recreate as a seperate character with the desired changes and there are plenty of rebuild rules out there for new material and as things get banned or changed, I'm honestly not sure it is needed.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I like the retraining idea, but honestly, a level one character is fairly easy to recreate as a seperate character with the desired changes, ... I'm honestly not sure it is needed.
There are one-offs like boons that come permanently attached to a character. Let's say your Tiefling PC comes with an extra trait and a free vanity. If you just start over, you lose all that.
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Also, when you only have one character that 1-3xp is the entirety of your PFS experience and may seem like a huge burden to give up. (I would imagine newer players are the most likely to benefit from a respec as well)
Also if you've joined a group slightly off cycle it may not be feasible to fall any further behind and XP, lest you become unable to play with your friends.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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1) The first paragraph on P14 (talking about the Shadow Lodge) ends with:
"... in spite of the that have been reparations made."
I suspect that should actually read:
"... in spite of the reparations that have been made."
2) Later on on that same page, an old Taldan saying is quoted as:
"Sick the wolf on the tiger ..."
While some sources do permit this variation, the most commonly-accepted spelling is:
"Sic the wolf on the tiger ..."
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1) The first paragraph on P14 (talking about the Shadow Lodge) ends with:
"... in spite of the that have been reparations made."
I suspect that should actually read:
"... in spite of the reparations that have been made."
2) Later on on that same page, an old Taldan saying is quoted as:
"Sick the wolf on the tiger ..."
While some sources do permit this variation, the most commonly-accepted spelling is:
"Sic the wolf on the tiger ..."
Thanks! I'm just starting next week to pour through the OPG to correct little things like this, as well as make additions and changes for 4.2. If anyone finds any similar mistakes, please point them out. It is a tremendous aid to me that more than one set of eyes is looking it over.
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in 3.5 it was an issue....but not nearly as bad as it is now since putting an ioun stone in a wayfinder 'grants you protection from mental control'....
Going to more gamedays I see people more and more who think they are immune to almost all enchantment spells and effects and it actually hurts my enjoyment of the game that some people abuse these rules in this fashion....
The biggest two components I have to defend why these people are wrong is... READ THE BOOK.....and ARE YOU FLIPPING KIDDING ME?!
Under the enchantment school in the core rulebook:
Charm: A charm spell changes how the subject views
you, typically making it see you as a good friend.
Compulsion: A compulsion spell forces the subject to act
in some manner or changes the way its mind works. Some
compulsion spells determine the subject’s actions or the
effects on the subject, others allow you to determine the
subject’s actions when you cast the spell, AND STILL OTHERS GIVE YOU ONGOING CONTROL OVER THE SUBJECT.
The other glaringly obvious one is the spell Mind Blank. You know that eighth level spell that used to grant you immunity to all mind effecting spells and effects? What is that you say? It doesn't even do that anymore? What makes you think a first level spell does?
Please god.... If anything... I volunteer to be the official 'slap you in the face for thinking the rules work like that' person for PFS...
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Clarification on what GM's gain from Running mods
the Boon from the final Eye of the Ten mod is an example of one that should be gained
Currently GMs do not receive boons, for good or ill, from GMing a scenario or module. The only exception is when the boon is the only thing on the Chronicle, such as a holiday boon.
I've GMed Eyes of Ten twice and definitely understand your example. I am considering changing the GMs not receiving boons, but at this time, they aren't available.
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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I am considering changing the GMs not receiving boons, but at this time, they aren't available.
I approve this thought! Rarely do I get to play anymore except at bigger conventions, and even more rarely do I get to seat a table with my friends... who have been able to intermix playing and GMing.
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Clarification on what GM's gain from Running mods
the Boon from the final Eye of the Ten mod is an example of one that should be gained
Currently GMs do not receive boons, for good or ill, from GMing a scenario or module. The only exception is when the boon is the only thing on the Chronicle, such as a holiday boon.
I've GMed Eyes of Ten twice and definitely understand your example. I am considering changing the GMs not receiving boons, but at this time, they aren't available.
fair enough ...then I have a question about another scenario ...
3-13 2 Items on the chronicle ...
1 states "as long as you have chronicle sheets for all 3 parts"
and the other is a unique Item specific to the Arc
which of these ... if either ... does the GM Gain from running the scenario
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Clarification on what GM's gain from Running mods
the Boon from the final Eye of the Ten mod is an example of one that should be gained
Currently GMs do not receive boons, for good or ill, from GMing a scenario or module. The only exception is when the boon is the only thing on the Chronicle, such as a holiday boon.
I've GMed Eyes of Ten twice and definitely understand your example. I am considering changing the GMs not receiving boons, but at this time, they aren't available.
fair enough ...then I have a question about another scenario ...
3-13 2 Items on the chronicle ...
1 states "as long as you have chronicle sheets for all 3 parts"
and the other is a unique Item specific to the Arc
which of these ... if either ... does the GM Gain from running the scenario
None currently. However, when and if that rule ever changes, the GM would get to choose.
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I hope that certain boons, like Eyes of the Ten for example can only be achieved once. If someone GM's the entire arc they can take the boon of their choice from Part 4. However, if they then play it, they aren't eligible for the boon they already received since achieving that boon becomes much easier. If you play the arc and then GM it, you'd only be eligible to receive the boon you didn't get when you played it.
Thoughts?
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I hope that certain boons, like Eyes of the Ten for example can only be achieved once. If someone GM's the entire arc they can take the boon of their choice from Part 4. However, if they then play it, they aren't eligible for the boon they already received since achieving that boon becomes much easier. If you play the arc and then GM it, you'd only be eligible to receive the boon you didn't get when you played it.
Thoughts?
This probably deserves its own thread.
I suspect that there are a significant number of people, myself included, who have no idea what the boons are, nor what the requirements to gain them are.
On the other hand, since the GM sheets and the player sheets have to be applied to two different PCs, whether they have the same boon or a different boon is probably fairly moot.
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Gulf
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There was some questions I started about the balance of the Double Hackbut, I have seen it dish out 2d12 three times, and with a critical or two single shot final encounters, (after every other encounter). This is without haste, or any other speed enhancement.
Round one, set up cart.
Round two, biggest bad guy dies.
Round three, three minions die.
The combination of musket master archetype, rapid shot and rapid reload with Alchemical cartridges lets you shoot like a belt fed machine gun.
Physically, you ram a rod two times for each reloading. In order to shoot three times a round, you ram six times in six seconds while walking around the double hackbut cart. I thought about sundering, but to do that you have to be close, you can't get close.
Removing the Double Hackbut is one easy solution.
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Don't ban any of the early firearms, just make any other than the starting weapon to be not always available. That way, that 4000gp double hackbut will not seem so overpowering at the point a gunslinger can finally have enough Fame to buy one. Checking the chart in the Guide, it would require having at least 18 Fame, so with perfect Fame earning, it would be a minimum of 4th level to buy one.
Oh, and walking from the back of the double hackbut after shooting to the front of it to reload would probably use up your movement for the round if you also attacked that round. It is just too big of a weapon to expect to do that action multiple times because you have to move to do it.
Then that kind of damage should not be unbalancing considering what a fighter or barbarian can do by that point.
As for the movement, that would have to be resolved in the regular rules forums probably, but to me, if you have to move to do something, that sets a limit no matter what your feats are. It is not a hand-held firearm where you stand in place to reload, with a double hackbut you have to move around it or you have to rotate it and both take time and movement.
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This is more FAQ
This needs to be added to the FAQ
You cannot make more money in a given scenario than the Max Gold value listed on the scenario's Chronicle sheet. An enemy NPC sold for ransom or into indentured servitude is flavor only and cannot grant a PC more gold than the Max Gold listed on a scenario's Chronicle sheet. Scribing a spellbook and selling it is the same as scribing a scroll and selling it (ie. it's not allowed). The only way to make money above the Max Gold on a given Chronicle sheet is to sell items you have already purchased or make a Day Job check.
Unless otherwise stated, you cannot sell for money something you got for free. It doesn't matter how you acquired the item. This includes bonded items (which lose all magic propertied when not used by the wizard to whom they are bonded anyway).
Those answer a lot, but we still need an answer to whether a firearm can even be a bonded item or if it can be gotten for free in this way. I do not think this has ever been answered before in the main rules forum, so we may need a clarification from there before an official PFS ruling can be made.
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Can you add a 301 redirect from
http://paizo.com/pathfindersociety/resources
to
http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/additionalResources
since the u in the 4.1 guide on page 4 still references the first?
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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Can you add a 301 redirect from
http://paizo.com/pathfindersociety/resources
to
http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/additionalResources
since the u in the 4.1 guide on page 4 still references the first?
The 2012 Free RPG Day Module "Dawn of the Scarlet Sun" also has the old (resources) link printed on the last page of the module.
I've already reported this, and suggested the website be fixed.
In this post Chris Lambertz did say she would try to address it.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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While double-checking the PFS rules for the Free RPG Day module, I've come up with a couple of suggestions.
- The rules on playing pregens aren't clear on whether a player who does have a level-appropriate PFS character must use that character, or whether they retain the option to play a pregen.
- I feel it would make more sense if a short 1XP module like this were treated like a scenario (allowing the chronicle for running a pregen to be applied to a regular PFS character of the minimum legal level), and not like a module (the chronicle can only be applied to a brand new PFS character).
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Hi Mike,
I would like to see an addendum to the Guide that list basically all the stuff that is legal in PFS consolidated in neat tables (incl. the stuff from the Additional Resources).
Allthough split into categories not sources (not like the Additional Resources page ;) ).
(Split into equipment, traits, spells, feats, classes, etc...)
That would be very handy and since it would be an addendum it would not bloat the actual Guide.
Off-topic:
Please allow the demon-bloodline from blood of the fiends. No reason not to have it legal (given that the Deamon Tiefling is allowed ;) ).
Ban the Heirloom Weapon trait so that players don't take a trap option for a weapon that can't be upgraded as they go.
Better yet, how about fixing Heirloom Weapon so it CAN be upgraded, using the same method as "upgrades" from masterwork to magical weapons. Personally, I like the gameplay / roleplaying idea of Heirloom Weapons, so I don't recommend ditching them when they can be easily fixed.
In my prior lives I play tested a number of indie gaming systems. That taught me to learn systems rather quickly, but better, it showed how to set up gaming system's data easier, especially for new players.
One of the things that annoys me the most about PathFinder in general is that it is so hard to find critical data easily. Level up facts are buried in paragraph text, and worse, across books. I think I'm not alon ... look at how many people use sites like D20PFS.com, even though their data can be as much as 6months behind current books. They have very fast searches that COMBINE the data across books, so you can see the complete picture of what's possible.
I'd like to see data tables used more in the new 4.2, making it easier to look up level ups, trait/feat/skill progression tables (including "trees"), spells (with easy look up of related magic items/scrolls that use the same spell), etc.
I'd also like to see MUCH more detailed indexes/appendices in all the books!! Its a nightmare trying to find any of the above examples, because the appendices only list high-level categories. Imagine how much more functional the books and the entire system would be if every spell, item, feat, etc were identified individually!! [Looks like Seth Gipson, Geist99 & I are on the same wavelength on this one.]
BTW, all the above makes even more sense for when the next edition books are being considered for update or repub.
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While double-checking the PFS rules for the Free RPG Day module, I've come up with a couple of suggestions.
- The rules on playing pregens aren't clear on whether a player who does have a level-appropriate PFS character must use that character, or whether they retain the option to play a pregen.
- I feel it would make more sense if a short 1XP module like this were treated like a scenario (allowing the chronicle for running a pregen to be applied to a regular PFS character of the minimum legal level), and not like a module (the chronicle can only be applied to a brand new PFS character).
Modules are going to be brought in line with scenarios on how to apply a Chronicle. Time to line things up across the board and it is already written into Guide 4.2.
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I'd like to see data tables used more in the new 4.2, making it easier to look up level ups, trait/feat/skill progression tables (including "trees"), spells (with easy look up of related magic items/scrolls that use the same spell), etc.
I'd also like to see MUCH more detailed indexes/appendices in all the books!! Its a nightmare trying to find any of the above examples, because the appendices only list high-level categories. Imagine how much more functional the books and the entire system would be if every spell, item, feat, etc were identified individually!! [Looks like Seth Gipson, Geist99 & I are on the same wavelength on this one.]
Guide 4.2 won't have any of the stuff in the first paragraph I quoted here. That information is in the Core Rulebooks, not the Guide to Organized Play, and it doesn't belong in the latter. It's about organizing Game Rules and stuff, not about how to play in the Organized Play campaign.
For what it's worth, I do empathize with you - I do look for places that have complete feat trees and spell lists all in one place. A side project of mine is to accumulate those things in a searchable database, so I understand your pain. (Accumulated Spell Lists, though, are already available in the PRD under the Index.)
