Tourism in Evil States


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


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Just how evil are the "Evil" nations in Golarion? My initial assumption wass that the Lawful Evil nations, like Geb and Cheliax, allow visitors and treat them normally (i.e. not enslaving you the moment you cross the border), but now that I think about it, "Lawful Evil" isn't necessarily the same as "Reasonable Evil".

Geb, for example, keeps living humans as a food source. It is implied that they have non-edible living humans as well, but they're a minority. If you wandered into Geb, would they treat you like food, or a guest? Is there such a thing as evil tourism in Golarion? If I was an evil or neutral Wizard, could I arrange to visit a library in Geb to research spells? Would I be able to immigrate? Would that depend on whether or not I intended to become undead in the near future?

Likewise, with Cheliax: obviously worshipping anyone who isn't Asmodeus is grounds for imprisonment/enslavement/execution, but what if you're a non-believer who simply doesn't proselytize? Like, if I was a Cleric of Iomedae who had to pass through Cheliax on my way to somewhere else, or had relatives there I wanted to visit, could I just not wear my holy symbol, not preach my religion, and more or less be okay? Granted, I can see how Iomedae might be pissed at me for doing that, but I could see a Cleric being forgiven for something like that if it was the only way she could visit her ailing mother, or something like that.

I assume there has to be some way to legally visit Cheliax, since they have to trade with other nations, but with Geb...undead don't really need to import fruits and veggies. I suppose the living would still need food though. Perhaps visitors are "on their own" when it comes to dealing with random undead attackers, but the government has no official policy of enslaving visitors? If so, how do the humans in Geb who are designated as a food source end up that way? I mean, humans under those circumstances wouldn't willingly bring more children into the world, so they're either compelling them to do so in some way (Charm Person?) or continually capturing new edible humans. Of the two options, I think the latter seems more likely, if only because I don't think spellcasting undead would want to be stuck with the job of "human animal husbandry".

I know this seems like an odd tangent, but it just struck me as interesting, and I can see some interesting story seeds in there. Framing a campaign with a tourism package to "Golarion's Most Controversial Nation-States" sounds like fun to me. Dealing with being an "illegal immigrant" to a Lawful Evil country would likewise be interesting...I could see a more mercantile nation letting you off with an exorbitant fine, while Cheliax might enslave you (after a trial, of course) and Geb would throw you into "the farm".

Liberty's Edge

I think it would depend on your rank and station (and fame) outside of the country in question. If you are a well-known, wealthy noble with lots of connections, I'm sure nations like Cheliax and Geb would roll out the red carpet for you, hide perhaps some of the more horrific practices from your eye, and do everything in their power to make you feel at home, welcome, and thinking, "These guys are pretty all right, :)", because having a wealthy, well liked noble family, government official, merchant lord, powerful wizard, etc. on your side is always a good thing.

I think if you are not known, just a travelling nobody, you can expect treatment that is altogether apathetic and probably predatory. In Cheliax, you can probably pass with ease, without much trouble if you don't start trouble and keep your head down. I think Cheliax, especially outside of the main cities, operates much as a normal large country would - the diabolics probably have more to worry about then picking on random travellers, so outside of the political and judicial range, things work mechanically like any other large medieval nation.

Geb probably wouldn't treat you quite so nice. I don't think they would treat you at all. No protection from the wandering undead, the Vampires, etc., and you might just be farmed or enslaved if you didn't have a reason for them not to do so.


I guess I don't see this as an issue since I don't think of Golarion as a modern world with passports and entrance visas. I imagine it closer to a typical fantasy setting, where there is no easy way to figure out where someone is form without torturing it out of them.

National identity is a very modern concept in reality - in fact there are great examples of contrasts in the real world. Take Afghanistan for example - many of the tribal areas in that country have no idea what the country is called and have never seen the flag of their country before. Why? Because it just doesn't impact everyday life. It's not that important.

So in my view, visiting an evil nation is a non-issue as long as you're not running around trying to convert people to your church of Sarenrae and you're following the local laws. You'd have an issue with Geb, since you'd likely be seen as food, so I would recommend disguises.

Liberty's Edge

I agree in part vip00, but I believe national identity was even more important in pre-modern times. In tribal societies - No - but even on that level, tribal identity was just as important. You could probably -pass- as a member of another country, but in old times, people were a lot more paranoid and local about foreigners. In small towns, people will immediately recognize that you do not live there and do not share features of them - which will probably be very similar since most of them are from similar breeding stock. In large towns, people will be very suspicious of you if you do not speak exactly as they do, wear the same clothing, and follow the same habits. You would probably be the product of rumor immediately and that would bring in inquiring eyes. If that country is at war, expect this treatment to be even harsher. In medieval europe, a lot of societies viewed foreigners as the lowest class. You might get away with being a merchant, but then again, you might be robbed - nobody cares about you if you are a foreigner. Fitting in, having a reputation and having connections or working for someone who did was the key to survival in pre-modern times. This goes back to national identity.


You make a very good point; I hadn't thought of it that way. I've been playing more modern/futuristic games for the past few years, so I wasn't really thinking about the difficulty in setting up an infrastructure to track nationality.

...and the more I think about it, the more awesome a campaign centered around shepherding an eccentric rich guy from one dangerous country to another ("no, sir, I don't think we can request an audience with Queen Arazni...") could be a lot of fun.


I would imagine having proper documentation could also be very important in LE countries; after all, historically, passports have been around for centuries in various forms. You would probably need to have a good reason for travel (i.e., trade, diplomacy, or a convincing plan for obtaining massive quantities of wealth for your origin or destination), and might only be authorized to visit certain cities or regions—even then, you might only be able to patronize certain approved businesses (heavily surveilled "foreigner" hotels, restaurants, and shops), and might even need to declare who you intend to meet with, with fines and "taxes" for violations. Anyone without proper papers (or the bribe money to compensate) would be vulnerable, and there could be a brisk business in forgery and bribing officials.

Travellers might also have to route-plan carefully if they want to travel between enemy countries (maybe Andoran to Cheliax via Absalom), which could help the GM introduce players to more of the world.

All that said, gauge your players' frustration levels carefully before drowning them in bureaucracy!


Other religions are legal in Cheliax. While the cult of Asmodeus is the state religion, others are allowed so long as they follow the laws of the land. Unfortunately, some of the laws are distasteful to the followers of gods such as Iomedae and if the followers do something illegal then they should expect no clemency. Note that while good religions are considered OK, chaotic ones are not.

As for tourism in general, that largely depends on how much wealth the character is going to spend in the nation. A wealthy visitor that spends serious money researching spells in Geb is fine whereas a poor vagrant that wants to enjoy the warm climate is likely to end up as food. Remember that the gp is the source of all evil...


HappyDaze wrote:
Other religions are legal in Cheliax. While the cult of Asmodeus is the state religion, others are allowed so long as they follow the laws of the land. Unfortunately, some of the laws are distasteful to the followers of gods such as Iomedae and if the followers do something illegal then they should expect no clemency. Note that while good religions are considered OK, chaotic ones are not.

I keep remembering an illustration of Chelaxian clerics publicly whipping a group of guys who are gagged, and the caption identified them as clerics of another faith. My assumption was that you couldn't preach a non-Asmodean faith in Cheliax, and that while other relgions exist there, they have to go underground.

HappyDaze wrote:


As for tourism in general, that largely depends on how much wealth the character is going to spend in the nation. A wealthy visitor that spends serious money researching spells in Geb is fine whereas a poor vagrant that wants to enjoy the warm climate is likely to end up as food. Remember that the gp is the source of all evil...

The idea of visiting Geb for the sunshine almost made me crack up at work. The weirdest thing about Geb though, IMO, is that their primary export is food. Apparently they have these giant farms manned by mindless undead, and people across Golarion are willing to buy (and presumably eat) fruits and veggies that were grown and handled by zombies.


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spectrevk wrote:


The idea of visiting Geb for the sunshine almost made me crack up at work. The weirdest thing about Geb though, IMO, is that their primary export is food. Apparently they have these giant farms manned by mindless undead, and people across Golarion are willing to buy (and presumably eat) fruits and veggies that were grown and handled by zombies.

That's not too hard to imagine. We can ignore that our shoes and t-shirts are made by children in sweatshops half a world away. When it is brought to our attention, we object. Then the shop is closed down, moved a few blocks over and the kids get back to work.

Silver Crusade

HappyDaze wrote:

Other religions are legal in Cheliax. While the cult of Asmodeus is the state religion, others are allowed so long as they follow the laws of the land. Unfortunately, some of the laws are distasteful to the followers of gods such as Iomedae and if the followers do something illegal then they should expect no clemency. Note that while good religions are considered OK, chaotic ones are not.

Yeah, I was going to point out that Iomedae was born in Cheliax as a mortal human, and is still well respected there. I'm pretty sure publicly worshiping her wouldn't be a problem, as you long as you don't speak out against the evil state religion while doing so.


spectrevk wrote:
I keep remembering an illustration of Chelaxian clerics publicly whipping a group of guys who are gagged, and the caption identified them as clerics of another faith.

Ok, those "clerics of another faith" may have been indulging in a not-so-innocent form of tourism in Cheliax... depending on the consentual-ness of the situation.


Disney why not?

Contributor

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It really is going to depend on the story you want to tell. Want a bunch of border guards and tariffs? Sure, you have them. Want there to be free and easy passage? Sure, you can have that too.

Realistically, however, you've got some kingdoms with laws and trade and they're going to want to sell themselves as civilized places to do business.

So let's take Geb as example. Arazni, the Harlot Queen, an ancient lich who's the reanimated remains of a dead goddess, decides she wants to snuff some tourist, let's say the daughter of some merchant here to buy zombie-picked cotton or maybe some wizard's apprentice here to help his master research in Geb's archives. The people she kills are 1st level and don't have a chance.

Now, what happens next? The merchant, after the death of his daughter, and the wizard, after the death of his apprentice, flee the benighted land of Geb, never to return, and get their revenge on Arazni by means of the most potent of weapons--the Truth. The merchant tells everyone who will listen of the awful death of his daughter and how Geb is no civilized land for investment and how zombie-picked cotton is not worth it and you should instead by slave-picked cotton from Katapesh. He does his utmost with the church of Abadar to utterly ruin Geb's credit rating via the international exchange rate.

The wizard? Well, he's a powerful wizard, but no match for Arazni in magical might. All he can do is use his position as fellow of some magical university to get his alma mater to close its stacks to all visiting researchers from Geb, treating it as a pariah nation.

Arazni might be a mighty lich queen, but she's still a politician. These sanctions would start to sting, especially if they added up, and as such, she's really not at liberty to snuff random visiting merchant's daughters and wizard's apprentices just because she feels like it. And if the mighty lich queen doesn't get to do that in her own country, you think she's going to stand for random vampire Count Blargh doing it, causing troubles with the sale of cotton and the ability to do library research at foreign universities?

Humans may be cattle in Geb, but if the history of Ireland or the Old West show anything, it's that those cattle belong to someone and that someone is going to get mighty ticked if they catch you cattle rustling. And free humans who aren't chattel slaves aren't so much free range cattle so much as free range cattle under the protection of the crown. Did Arazni give you permission to drink random dude dry? No? Then you don't get to do it unless you want to answer to the Harlot Queen of Geb.

Yeah, there will be a few vampires with the political capital to spend to go ahead and slip of they feel like it, but even they will have a limited number of "Get Out of Jail Free" cards, and Arazni will have to be juggling plates to keep the merchant from being upset about his dead daughter or the wizard from being annoyed about his dead apprentice. At very least she's going to have buy a Raise Dead from Church of Urgathoa.

Cheliax? Similar deal but more so. If you're doing a massive PR deal to sell the Prince of Lies as the Prince of Law, you are going to have to be a nation of laws, both on paper and in appearance, and anything that goes counter to those laws is going to be a PR nightmare. Yes, they will likely be evil draconian laws, but the laws will need to accommodate trade and so forth if Cheliax is going to be a civilized nation.

Liberty's Edge

Now the Mwangi Expanse... nobody is going to care if you become a monkeys hump-pillow...

I think I would look at Cheliax kind of like Nazi Germany and perhaps do some research on how tourists and things were treated there. I'd almost venture to say it won't even be AS bad as Nazi Germany, since Cheliax isn't actively in a war nor is it seeking to exterminate any particular groups of people.

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