Whipping that dead horse

[Quishadi]

Ok ... here's my story.

I *AM* a hardcore gamer, and have been since I was 11. I got lucky and married a girl who got into gaming also, though she's not nearly as hardcore as I am. However, from about 97 to 07 we were not able to game much and I subsisted on CRPGs (she read books ... a lot of books). So we missed the tail end of 2E, most of 3/3.5 and got back just in time for 4E. We had never done OP, and both kind of looked down on it. In my rush to get back into things, I started playing LFR at a local game shop ... and surprisingly had a lot of fun. There was this great sense of community. And then I got my wife into it ... and then our youngest daughter. (My oldest plays also, but with a different group, and not OP.) All was good with the world, and we had a lot of fun. We played and ran mods in a huge community of gamers on the east coast ... about 3 slots a week for a couple of years! But then spammed supplements killed 4E and the cheeze weezles killed LFR, and I went looking for something else. I found PFS, and I liked it. I tried to get my wife and daughter into it also, but ran into several problems that have hampered my efforts.

1. I can't replay modules, and if the table is legal, I'm not even supposed to go along for the ride. So since I've played a lot of modules (hardcore, remember), I pretty much can't play at their table.

2. They've each had bad experiences with less than fun DMs in PFS play, and they hate the fact that they can't replay with a different character and a different DM and hopefully a better experience. Because of a particularly bad experience, my daughter absolutely refuses to play PFS anymore. She's almost 17 now, and thinks it's a waste of her time to do something that might suck, with no chance of correcting it.

3. My wife will play now and then, and we're trying to get some of our old LFR friends into PFS, but #1 makes this really hard. I've started running the mods so that I can participate, but because the new players trickle in, it's hard to plan our sessions. We also want this to be the sort of community that we had with LFR, and so have been willing to let all comers join, but this has only made things worse. There is one guy with almost as many mods as I have, and he pretty much kills the number of open mods we have to work with. Another problem is that people who miss a couple sessions just don't come back. They feel like they can't catch up. And no one wants to use the slow play option - they all feel like they're getting cheated. (I know that this isn't really true, but we're dealing as much with how people feel about the situation as we are with the facts of the situation.)

4. We actually are friends with our local area Venture Captain (we play at a couple home games with him ... one is PF, one is not), and I think he's sick of our questions. We've heard the argument that replaying will mean that games get ruined by players who reveal plot, but that doesn't really fly with us. There was free replay in LFR. (And before you say anything, that is *NOT* what killed it. No, it was overall powercreep, free character rewrites, rampant cheezing, and no reward system for DMs that killed LFR.) If anything, people went out of their way to police themselves and not use out of character knowledge in game ... often in modules they had played many, many times. We rarely had a bad experience with people revealing plot, and in the rare cases where we did, a simple word was all it took. And it doesn't fly for one other reason: PFS allows it also ... without credit under PPP, and for credit in the 1st level games like We Be Goblins, etc. This alone destroys that argument.

I guess what I'm saying is that we like PF ... we know we CAN have fun with PFS ... but we're struggling to make it work because the one-time-play rules are so restrictive. We just can't recreate that sense of community that we had with LFR. The players come and go depending on what is being run - there are only a few regulars. Heck, the guy that got me into PFS doesn't even come around anymore ... he'll run without credit, but he has better things to do than play without credit.

Having played both LFR and PFS, I don't think you PFS people know what you're missing. I have played at cons, at game stores, at friend's house, but I have yet to experience that same sense of community that I had with LFR. The truth is that some loosening of the OTP rules coupled with your already existing reward system for DMing would make PFS the best of both worlds.

I know that this is a dead horse. I don't expect that this will do anything, but I still wanted to say it.

[nosig]

well... I have a different experience. But there are so many thing presented here that I have a different view on, that I don't know where to start, or even if I could be of any help to you.

If you get to the St. Louis area, come play with us. I actually think we have a nice "sense of community" in the area... and would love to have a few visitors drop by.

let me see what I can do to address your numbered problems, realizing that these are only suggestions from me, someone who has no first hand knowledge of your problems.

1. "...replay modules, ...since I've played a lot of modules (hardcore, remember), I pretty much can't play at their table." So why not Judge the table? That's what I do.

2a. "...bad experiences with less than fun DMs in PFS play,..." see #1 above - that should fix this.

2b. "...hate the fact that they can't replay with a different character and a different DM and hopefully a better experience...." Each game will be a different game, and if 2a is fixed 2b should follow along.

2c. "...a particularly bad experience, my daughter absolutely refuses to play PFS anymore. She's almost 17 now, and thinks it's a waste of her time to do something that might suck, with no chance of correcting it." Well, perhaps no suggestion for this. Un able to re-write history, but if you do #1 above maybe....

3a. I have no suggestions on how to fix this, but it seems like you are doing #1 here ..."...I've started running the mods so that I can participate,..."
3b. "...the new players trickle in, it's hard to plan our sessions...." this goes with the nature of PFS. Not sure if there is a fix that will keep us all happy.
3c. "...want this to be the sort of community that we had with LFR, and so have been willing to let all comers join, but this has only made things worse...." I'm not sure why this is an issue. If someone is totally new, any game is new to them. If they are old players, then get them to Judge the ones they have played that you have not. At least that is what we do in my group.
3d. "...one guy with almost as many mods as I have, and he pretty much kills the number of open mods we have to work with...." see 3c above.
3e. "...people who miss a couple sessions just don't come back. They feel like they can't catch up...." Are you only running one character? I play more than my wife. So I have more characters than her. I always have a character at the same level as one she is playing... I even have ones that ONLY play with her characters. If the occasional player shows up and you pull out the PC he always adventures with... and he's the same level... why do they need to catch up?
3e. "...no one wants to use the slow play option - they all feel like they're getting cheated. (I know that this isn't really true, but we're dealing as much with how people feel about the situation as we are with the facts of the situation.)..." Slow play is not a way to keep a character back to adventure with his buddies that play less, it's an option to let you play the same PC more adventure. It's not an option to help the GROUP, it's for the PLAYER.

4. I have no idea how to reply to this. I made the jump from LG to PFS and never went to LFR. Sorry?

[lastknightleft]

You are allowed to run new characters through a module you've played so long as the DM is willing, so if you DMed games for your family you can run them through the module.

[Mattastrophic]

Quishadi wrote:

1. I can't replay modules, and if the table is legal, I'm not even supposed to go along for the ride. So since I've played a lot of modules (hardcore, remember), I pretty much can't play at their table.

There is nothing in the Guide to Organized Play that says you can't tag along for a module you've already played. Similarly, if your daughter had a bad experience with a given module in the past, she is able to play it again, for the improved play experience.

That should solve your problem.

-Matt

[Mark Moreland]

Mattastrophic wrote:

Similarly, if your daughter had a bad experience with a given module in the past, she is able to play it again, for the improved play experience.

Is there somewhere we've said this? I'm not sure having something as subjective as a "bad experience" as the exception to the existing replay rules is the best idea.

[nosig]

Though he says Modules I think he means Scenarios

[Quishadi]

nosig - like you, I can only speak to my own experiences. Our LFR community was much more active and robust - nearly everyone was there nearly every time. 1-3 tables every Thursday night and 2-4 tables twice on Sundays (no exaggeration). The PFS group picks and chooses and has never gotten over one table per Sunday. While people really like the DM for credit rule (and wish we'd had something like that in LFR), they really, really hate the play once for credit rule.

lastknightleft - you can only play once for credit, that is the rule.

Mattastrophic - I can't think of a reason to have a one-time-play for credit rule except to discourage repeat play. If not, what is it for? Regardless of intention, it does discourage repeat play. Having seen the evolution of the guide, at first it was kind of loose (I think you could replay with a different faction for credit under the PPP rule), but then it changed. I had just started playing when it changed. I know that the old LFR players (who do like PF, but are having trouble liking PFS) have this attitude like they don't want to waste their time in an OP situation without the OP upside (a character that's advancing toward something). We all have home games, and lives, and other things we could be doing, and we all travel a long way to play (most of us about 30-45 minutes, but some more than an hour).

[Alexander_Damocles]

Mark Moreland wrote:

Mattastrophic wrote:

Similarly, if your daughter had a bad experience with a given module in the past, she is able to play it again, for the improved play experience.

Is there somewhere we've said this? I'm not sure having something as subjective as a "bad experience" as the exception to the existing replay rules is the best idea.

I thought it was that you could play it again for no credit.

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Alexander_Damocles wrote:

Mark Moreland wrote:

Mattastrophic wrote:

Similarly, if your daughter had a bad experience with a given module in the past, she is able to play it again, for the improved play experience.

Is there somewhere we've said this? I'm not sure having something as subjective as a "bad experience" as the exception to the existing replay rules is the best idea.

I thought it was that you could play it again for no credit.

You can only ever replay for no credit if you are needed to make a legal table. So if there are four or more players already at the table, you cannot join in and replay just for the fun of it. Of course, this does not apply to any scenario or module that can be replayed for credit.

[W. Kristoph Nolen]

I'm going with the assumption, like othrs, that he meant replaying for no credit - for the sole benefit of a better roleplaying experience.
No new chronicle, no nothing, just having fun - with the caveat not to give away the story.

[nosig]

Quishadi wrote:

nosig - like you, I can only speak to my own experiences. Our LFR community was much more active and robust - nearly everyone was there nearly every time. 1-3 tables every Thursday night and 2-4 tables twice on Sundays (no exaggeration). The PFS group picks and chooses and has never gotten over one table per Sunday. While people really like the DM for credit rule (and wish we'd had something like that in LFR), they really, really hate the play once for credit rule.

...trimmed parts not addressed to me....

different groups are different I guess.

When LG died, one of the things that killed the group ("community") I was in, was the replay rules of LFR. It's one of the things that kept me from making the jump to LFR anyway.

One of the groups ("community") I meet with has 3 table running every Tuesday (sometimes we fall back to 2), mostly tables are full (every now and again it's 7 player tables). Mostly a hard core of a little over a dozen, with another dozen or so floaters). I also play with a more private group of 6. We try to be real regular in that group and play each week end (sometimes twice a weekend).

another venue I used to play at regularly had 2 tables that ran in two slots on sunday - they may still have that, but I don't play there anymore (the "community" was not one I liked) so I don't know.

I don't beleave the replay rules effect "community" size or makeup as much as who is there and how much fun we are having.

PFSOP is not LG... or LFR. or for that matter the gaming club back in my collage days. All of them are what we make them. I still have hold-overs from LG days, I call "ARs" "Certs" and "Scenarios" "Mods" sometimes. I miss having reginal "mods" ... but, you know, overall, I like PFS much better.

[Quishadi]

Enevhar - I think this was loosened a bit. Now you only require DM approval, and they are encouraged to allow it in the case where you'd be needed to make a legal table. So replaying without credit should be fairly easy most of the time.

W. Kristoph - No, like I said, coming from LFR, with unlimited replay, the play once for credit is kind of foreign to us. Most of the old LFR crowd doesn't want to make the trip out to the store to play if they're going to have nothing (except warm feelings) to show for it. (Maybe it's an east coast thing.) My daughter still comes with us, but she does homework. It's kind of a silent protest.

nosig - right now, the old DM who got us started wants to run 06 for me this Sunday because I've never played it. Only three other players are available, and one of them has already played it. He doesn't want to make the 45 minute trip so that the other three of us can play (and he's kind of miffed that we would even consider playing a game he "can't" participate in ... and he's not an LFR player, like most of you, he's a 3.5 to PF kind of guy). We are looking for something else that he "can" play.

I also find that some people will say they'll play again to be part of the group, but then, when it come to time, they have something else to do.

Like I said, this is as much about how people feel about what they're getting as it is about what they're actually getting.

[Michael Brock]

Thanks for the concerns and opinions expressed here. I've talked to numerous store owners, previous staff members of LFR and LG, I have played organized campaigns going back to Living City, and have spoken to many players of Pathfinder Society.

The overwhelming consensus is they don't want unlimited replay. Mind you, some players would like it, but most don't. Your experience appears to be quite different from what many others I have talked to. I have spoken to 12 store owners in 9 states, 4 in person, who all agree the unlimited replay killed previous organized play in their stores.

We release two new scenarios a month and six new modules a year. Hopefully, if you have played the other 17 sanctioned modules and more than 100 scenarios, that the two new scenarios will keep you and your group interested in Pathfinder Society.

[Quishadi]

nosig - different experiences I guess. For us, the LFR replay rules meant that we could get together and spin off extra tables as needed, or even play on a moments notice. These were all people driving long distances to play ... coming in from NYC, south Jersey ... all over. The store owner tried to get PFS going with something even resembling the same turnout, but with no luck. I decided to try and carry the torch, but I'm getting frustrated. These players don't want to hassle with traffic for a game they're not getting credit for. They'd rather engage in the empty "shared" experience of an MMORPG [shudder].

Honestly, If I could get enough people for multiple tables, I think we would actually be better off. We might have the flexibility to deal with the scheduling problems we're having now. I mean, we have to keep a spreadsheet just to know who can play what (for credit)! But right now, I can't get enough people to play one table on a regular basis.

Your experience is that replay doesn't affect the size of the group, but that's not my experience. I'm getting a lot of direct negative feedback regarding this specific issue.

[Michael Brock]

Mattastrophic wrote:

Similarly, if your daughter had a bad experience with a given module in the past, she is able to play it again, for the improved play experience.

That should solve your problem.

-Matt

This is not how it works. You do not get to replay a module because of a bad experience.

[Andrew Christian]

I find it hard to believe you’ve exhausted 3-1/2 seasons of scenarios. There are like over 20 for each tier of scenario overall (someone posted up a link of all the quantities per tier). And if you’ve played them all, you should have two retired characters.

[sveden]

Sounds like your wife, your daughter and your other children need to start a PFS home game.

Then you could do all these "fun" things.

[Quishadi]

Michael - Thanks for weighing in. I have only played in two OP campaigns, LFR and PFS. LFR is dying ... it's already dead where we play, but I know it wasn't because of replay. (Honestly, if LFR had a DM reward program like PFS, I think it might still be going. Well, with Essentials and a BOOK full of errata, maybe not ... but I think it would have lasted longer.) At the same time PFS can't seem to get off the ground, and I know it is largely because of replay. I can only tell you what I know personally. My experience certainly isn't as far-reaching and varied as yours.

But ... since I've got you "on the line" and you mentioned all of the modules that are available. One related problem I'm having - I can't get the con regulars to play much at all, especially the newer mods. They don't want to waste their one shot at playing those mods at a game store rather than a convention. Right now we have a local con scheduled for Fed 23-26 that's running the seven most recent season 3 mods, so no one wants me to schedule those. On occasion, those players will show up to play a mod they're missing, but that certainly doesn't feel like community...

[sveden]

Quishadi wrote:

At the same time PFS can't seem to get off the ground, and I know it is largely because of replay.

You can't get PFS off the ground locally because the people you want to play PFS have already played all the PFS modules?

I'm not sure I understand how that's possible.

[Quishadi]

Andrew - I have played almost all of the adventures that are "lower level". As I said, this group is mostly starting out, with newer players so I'm running. Our DM has played all of the lower level stuff and cannot join us any longer (until we are all high enough level to play together again). Two other players have played more, one almost as much as I have. All together we are having trouble finding lower level games we can play together.

sveden - We do other fun things together ... including home games. Just not OP anymore.

Matt - you mean 4.1, right?

[Deidre Tiriel]

We've never said "Sorry, you can't play with us today. Period." to anyone. It is rude and seems counter-intuitive to having fun.

We usually have a low level game and a mid/high level game going on. Since there are lots of PFS groups in the DFW area, it makes sense that some people who play in multiple groups will have played the scenarios that that are offered any given day. We announce what is being played ahead of time, but sometimes people don't get the message - or just need to hang out with friends.

The situation is rare (it has happened max 4 times in the past couple years), but if a person has played both of the scenarios, we now put them on the smaller table and just not give them credit. We've NEVER had a problem with anyone ruining a scenario because they already played it. This is proven by people who have played through Tier 1 scenarios/modules multiple times with different characters (I've played Master of the Fallen Fortress 2-3 times - unfortunately for those characters, since they are really low on Fame)

Now, this may not be perfectly legal, but it is *the right thing to do.* We don't have a regular group of PFS players. We have a ton of people who show up whenever they can play, and we've been playing since the very beginning. This leaves our group with a vastly diverse group of players, and there are very few scenarios that no-one has played. - Add on to that fact that we have no idea who is going to show up until they rsvp or just come - certainly not in time for a GM to prepare a scenario. We are very limited on the number of brand-new scenarios we can play because we have more low-level players (new players) than higher level, so those 7-11s are almost useless.

The point is - players have played different scenarios. We aren't a core group. We have walk-bys and new players all the time. These players then play with people from other groups, or people who have played a lot of the scenarios.

[Andrew Christian]

Quishadi wrote:

Michael - Thanks for weighing in. I have only played in two OP campaigns, LFR and PFS. LFR is dying ... it's already dead where we play, but I know it wasn't because of replay. (Honestly, if LFR had a DM reward program like PFS, I think it might still be going. Well, with Essentials and a BOOK full of errata, maybe not ... but I think it would have lasted longer.) At the same time PFS can't seem to get off the ground, and I know it is largely because of replay. I can only tell you what I know personally. My experience certainly isn't as far-reaching and varied as yours.

But ... since I've got you "on the line" and you mentioned all of the modules that are available. One related problem I'm having - I can't get the con regulars to play much at all, especially the newer mods. They don't want to waste their one shot at playing those mods at a game store rather than a convention. Right now we have a local con scheduled for Fed 23-26 that's running the seven most recent season 3 mods, so no one wants me to schedule those. On occasion, those players will show up to play a mod they're missing, but that certainly doesn't feel like community...

I find it really hard to believe that with a new group that you’ve exhausted the 20+ tier 1-5 scenarios and 20+ 1-7 or 3-7 scenarios. There shouldn’t be a NEED for replay with that many scenarios available for play.

Now with my experience with the RPGA back in 2001 through 2004, they would retire an entire season of scenarios about 2 months or so into the current season. I expect they continued that practice with LFR.

Are you under the mistaken impression that you can’t play season 0, 1, & 2 scenarios?

If so, please keep those season scenarios in mind as they are all available (except for the 10 or so season 0 that were retired).

[Andrew Christian]

Ok, how many tier 1-5 or 1-7 (3-7) has your character played?

I find it hard to believe that your character is even 6th level (still eligible to play the 1-7 or 3-7 tiers) let alone 8th if you just started.

[Fromper]

sveden wrote:

Sounds like your wife, your daughter and your other children need to start a PFS home game.

Then you could do all these "fun" things.

I tend to agree. Start a home PFS game. Rather than trying to attract a crowd, just get a few close friends, and grow it from there. That's what my local group did. We now have 8 regulars who show up almost every week, and a few others who show up maybe 20% of the time, as they can.

It's easier to manage and control what scenarios to run based on what everyone hasn't already played, because we're all playing together, so there are very few times when one of us has played something at a con or with another group that the others want to play. And in those few cases, the person who played it at a past con usually volunteers to GM the scenario for the rest of us.

[nosig]

wow... this is just strange. Not like I'm seeing in the St.Louis area. Last night we got to welcome our first local Venture officer ... and got back to playing. I ran a table of First Steps (requested last week, and I'll be judgeing another next week) for 2 new players, one a month "old" (second character starting), one old hand, and my wive's new Oricle. And it was the third table. I expect it to be the third or fourth table in the shop next Tuesday. My son was playing over at one of the other tables and our weekend group will expect him to (eventurally) run the game he played for us. We go to a CON every 2 or 3 months and play mostly with friends, but often we'll get a "scout" to go play a different mod and he'll run that for the group later.

Just looks like it is your group. Not sure what to say. Good luck guy - hope things get better for you.

[sveden]

Dear Original Poster, what does OP mean?

[Quishadi]

Thanks all for the advice.

To those who marvel at the number of scenarios "I've played," know that I am not talking about all scenarios, just mostly the lower level ones, and not just ones I've played, but ones at least three people have played. (BTW, I have 5 characters: 9, 8, 4, 4, 1.) I want to play with my wife who only has 2 low level characters. Our friend wants to play with his girl friend who also only has one low level character. We can't do that easily. Think about it. I've played games. The guy with the girl friend has played games. There's a third guy who has played and run about as many games as I have (9, 4, 4, 3, 2, 2, 1). Throw in the other occasional person who has played now and then, and you can see that it gets tough. We have a spreadsheet of who has played and DMed what for the 7 or so regulars.

We are looking at the modules (not scenarios), but we don't have a long enough time block to run them. Also, many of the season three mods are off limits because of the upcoming Con. (People want to play those at the con, not at the game store.) We have fun ... a lot of fun, and we're always looking to recruit, but it's just not easy and its getting harder. I agree, if we had more players we would have more flexibility but we just don't have them on a regular basis. We have to play with the people we have or not at all.

The most frustrating thing is that we are trying to share this hobby with others and the OP rules don't seem to want us to ... at least not and play with those people at the same time ... they can go off by themselves and play.

[Natertot]

At the store do you guys choose a scenario before hand and muster for it, or do you have a game day and see who shows up and choose the scenario from what people can play?

[Quishadi]

sveden - OP means organized play.

[Grumpus]

And what is LFR and LG?

[Natertot]

Grumpus wrote:

And what is LFR and LG?

LFR = Living Forgotten Realms

LG = Living Greyhawk

[nosig]

sveden wrote:

Dear Original Poster, what does OP mean?

I'm not the Original Poster, but I would guess it means Organized Play.... you know, part of PFSOP....

[Quishadi]

Natertot - The gamestore was organizing via warhorn, but stopped because of low turn-out (and maybe laziness). Now that it's fallen to me, I have a list of people who have played in the past and I blast out an email once a week to see who can play. Based on that and the email, I suggest scenarios. It's just getting harder and harder to find scenarios everyone can play. The 3-7 scenarios from season 3 are welcome, but like I said ... those are off limits because of the Con.

(And it would be unfair to say that the no-repeat rule shouldn't affect anything and then at the same time discount this "con" problem that I'm having. Whether you want to believe it or not, repeating is on people's minds.)

nosig - sounds like you have critical mass! Still, even with the flexibility of more tables, I probably wouldn't be able to play with my wife and my friend with his girl ... we'd be at the big person table.

[Cpt_kirstov]

Quishadi wrote:

We are looking at the modules (not scenarios), but we don't have a long enough time block to run them.

Modules take as long as 3-4 PFS scenarios. BUT they don't need to be run all at once. You could schedule one group to be together for the next 3-4 weeks to do a module, and it would be perfectly fine. (I havn't looked into the module rules enough to see how your con would affect this though, you may want to wait until after the con)

[nosig]

Quishadi wrote:

... trimmed to the part addressed to me...

nosig - sounds like you have critical mass! Still, even with the flexibility of more tables, I probably wouldn't be able to play with my wife and my friend with his girl ... we'd be at the big person table.

so... you want to play "the big person table" with the four of you? by that you mean you want to play higher Tier games? Ooookkkk.... ah, then why is it a problem not being able to repeat play the lower Tier games?

by my fast count there are 40 scen. for Tiers below 5-9 and 30 for Tiers 5-9 or 7-11 (not counting any in season 3). I would assume you have played many (50%+) with your wife/friends. This would still leave a large number of un played scens.... or am I missing something?

and I do not see how allowing do-overs would be of any more help... except perhaps to speed Judge Prep time. Pick a judge (even if it's one of the Newbies), hand him a Scen. you 4 haven't played (say #32, or #34, or #36, or #40). He can prep it for a week and run it for you on the week end. Anyone haveing a character available to play in your SCEN can join in. Hand him the Scen. to run next week, and post your email notice of next weeks high level table. Rense and repeat. Your Newbie judge will be getting ARs and you'll have a steady table. and your player base will grow.

[jjaamm]

It seems to me like you and your friend have enough characters for now. So why not play games with them for no credit. They get the credit and advance, so that they can play in higher tier later. You can replay if it means making a legal table just not for credit.

[sveden]

nosig wrote:

sveden wrote:

Dear Original Poster, what does OP mean?

I'm not the Original Poster, but I would guess it means Organized Play.... you know, part of PFSOP....

I love it when 5 letter initialisms get abbreviated to 2 letters. :D

[Deidre Tiriel]

jjaamm wrote:

It seems to me like you and your friend have enough characters for now. So why not play games with them for no credit. They get the credit and advance, so that they can play in higher tier later. You can replay if it means making a legal table just not for credit.

The point is, if there are too many players at the table, the scenario cannot be replayed legally, even for no credit. I don't get the big fuss. Give the person a pregen (which are usually underpowered, thus not harming the balance of the group by making it too easy for the others), and play.

A very good example:

It has happened recently that one person came with their spouse (the GM in this case), having already played the scenario, because they would be needed to make a legal table for the two expected players, even with a npc pregen. Then two people unexpectedly showed up to game, and the player couldn't legally play.

What we did, which is not considered legal by PFS standards:

We allowed the spouse to play a pregen even though there were now four legal players.

[Mystic Lemur]

Quote:

which is not considered legal by PFS standards

And I think that's the crux of the issue. Why have a rule if it's considered 'okay' by so many people to break it...? It's obviously not okay by Mike, so why are so many people openly admitting breaking that rule?

I'm relatively new, and I've already been part of a "No, I've already played that one. How about...?" "Nah, I played that last week. What about...?" "No can do, I'm outside that tier." "Oh, yeah. What about...?"

[ubiquitous42]

When the St. Louis group first started organizing monthly game days, we would announce the scenario(s) ahead of time. It quickly became apparent that we were turning away players by doing so, either because players who had already played it would just stay home, or new-to-the-group players would show up, only to find they didn't have a table to join.

As a test, some players began deciding one scenario that would definitely be played the next game day, while leaving other players unassigned. I began acting as a "floating" GM, promising to find a scenario that overflow players could play. We started seeing a larger turnout almost instantly. I can't in good conscience recommend this for all groups, though, because you need a GM that is either great at running a scenario cold, or has a lot of scenarios pre-prepared at a moment's notice.

If you really want to play the higher-end stuff, Quishadi, remember that players without characters for that tier can pick up a pregen and play along. Since the new edition of the Guide to Organized Play, they'll get a chronicle to apply when a character of theirs reaches the appropriate level.

[LtlBtyRam]

We were having a lot of the same problems with replay and such. I'm not going to go into our group history it's moot.

We played twice a month for two sessions totalling 4 games a month for over a year (we will celebrate our 2nd year at the end of the month). When the replay rules changed to 1 time for credit per player there was much ado on these very boards. The general consensus was if you played twice a month then this problem pretty much went away.

Our group conceded to this and guess what? The general consensus is right. Since we dropped to two games a month we hacve had very little issues with who has played what.

I hope this helps. If anyone has any questions post them here or PM me. I'd be glad to help if I can.

LtlBtyRam
aka Angela

[Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome]

Quishadi,

It sounds like you have a decent level rage on your characters, one thing you might consider (I think it was mentioned someonewhere as well) is to GM a few of the scenarios. This would give your wife and daughter time to catch a couple of characters up to you so that you can play at the same table together.

[Quishadi]

LtlBtyRam wrote:

The general consensus was if you played twice a month then this problem pretty much went away.

Okay ... so I guess the consensus is less PF, not more. But at the same time, I don't think that this takes into account people who go to conventions. It seems to me that PFS can easily support someone who primarily games at conventions, or someone who games with a regular group at a home or local game store, but not an intersection of the two.

Purple - I am running almost all the games now (I think I'm up to 9), which means that our old DM can't play with us (either for credit or legally) anymore ... he's played all of the low level mods already.

New development - we have a new-to-PFS player, and we're pretty much out of mods we can run through. ... I know - the 1st level path, right? But what after that? I guess we can invite our old DM back and run two tables of three ... but then we're not playing together anymore. I just don't think that this is going to work the way we want it to.

I know that many of you think that I am exaggerating or that there is some fudging going on, but there isn't. We have a spreadsheet of all the scenarios out there, and all of us. We are trying to follow the rules. It's just not working very well for us.

[deusvult]

I feel for the original poster.

While it is a major problem to keep track of all scenarios played by all your characters (and more to the point, picking a scenario for several people that all are eligible for), unlimited replay probably isn't the right answer either.

My desire would be to see the replay 'upped' a bit to one chronicle per scenario per character, but that's unlikely to happen.

However they HAVE made a nearly as good rule: The first steps scenarios and 1st level sanctioned modules ARE fully replayable, once per character.

[Quishadi]

deusvult - I personally think that the once-per-faction rule that used to part of PPP was reasonable ... but I guess it was causing some other issues? I'm not going to go hunting through messageboard archives to find out, but the organizers must have thought they were protecting the campaign from something by eliminating it.

To what you said about the 1st level adventures: Do you really think that playing the same few "adventures" (what are there 2 "paths" that will take you from 1st to 2nd level?) over and over again is an answer? If there is worry that replaying modules will lead to cheating? ... less enjoyment? ... maybe a more mechanical approach to the game? ... then what does that say about these modules? It seems to me that as the *only* replay options, they will quickly become stale. At the same time, their existence, while understandable from the point of view of trying to be new-player-friendly, also seems hypocritical. I also think, from our experience, as a group trying to play together, but also trying to be open to new members, that it is ... a sham. We just got the new player I spoke of above, and beyond one of those gateway "paths," I don't know how we continue to include him ... and continue to play as a group ... and go to conventions and play with other people we see only rarely or have never met before. I just don't see how *we* do that. I get it. It's working for some ... maybe even most of you. Not so much for us.

Honestly, the rules as written = play PFS less. If that's the goal, then that's the goal. We just have to live with it.

[godsDMit]

It sounds to me that your issue is because 'credit is king'. If a person cant get a GM or player chronicle for doing a scenario cause they have already played or ran it, then they are unwilling to do it. If that is the case, then I can understand why you are having such a hard time finding stuff that do together.

[Dragnmoon]

Quishadi wrote:

deusvult - I personally think that the once-per-faction rule that used to part of PPP was reasonable ... but I guess it was causing some other issues?

One of the issues, was that the rule was only supposed to be used to make a Legal table, so the only time you could "replay" was when there was 2 or 3 players at the table and you needed another to make the table legal but he already played it, it allowed for that player still to get credit.

There was evidence that the rule was being abuse and not used in that way.

so the replay rule was very limiting but I think people where "working the system" to remove that limitation.

[deusvult]

Quisshadi, we're on the same side.

Once you have a character beyond the first tier, we both see that one has the problem of how to include new characters/players into the clique.

I'd like to see PFS allow credit for a scenario more than twice ever (once as a player, once as a GM). However it simply isn't going to happen.

With that constraint, what can one do? Something you may not be aware of is the existing players/higher level characters opting for slow advancement. It'll allow the new blood to catch up. If you have a few sanctioned modules available, its a great way to slingshot a new character up to play in the same tier as the 'vanguard', highest level PCs.

Why would someone willingly accept half experience and half loot? Well, primarily for the problem you see... getting new people integrated into an established regular group. (also, remember the retirement at 11th level.. why not squeeze out an extra 3 or more scenarios for a beloved character before you have to shelve him?)

It's not the end all be all of fixes, but it's something Mike & Mark put alot of thought in, and in some cases it seems to be just the thing. It might work for your group. Even if you don't like their decision to not allow unlimited replays, at least they acknowledge the problem and are trying to address it.

[Michael Brock]

If you guys play as much as it appears you are, and there are few options left in PFS, why not schedule some playing of the adventure paths or other modules?

Also, are you reporting all of your sessions? Looking at your sessions played or GMed, you have barely more than half listed on your sessions record?

[Whiskey Jack]

If Quishadi would just not worry about being "official" in their PFS play, they could play at home with their friends and follow the PFS style format (including reward sheets, XP and PA advancement, etc.) but just not report the sessions. It's killing me how adherence to the rules is getting in the way of having fun playing a game with his loved ones and friends. Sure, you could never take the characters to an "official" PFS game in a store or convention, but the trade off is having a mighty fun time with your friends and family. If "organized play" is keeping the OP from playing with them, then maybe it's time to eschew it in favor of something that works better... why not do an adventure path instead?

I realize I am not helping you with a solution to the original issue, though. :-( Trying to bridge with players of different exposure to PFS (i.e. having played modules and now being ineligible) is a common problem.

EDIT - I feel I should specify that by "not reporting sessions", I am not advocating being deceitful in PFS- what I am suggesting is "do it at home for fun, in your own little sandbox" outside of PFS play. (Before someone jumps down my throat thinking I am suggesting "cheating".)