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Spell Combat & Dimension Door


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber

I've run into an interesting phrasing question here. I was evaluating the Dimensional Agility feat line for my Magus, and overall I'm not sure if I want it; it's a lot of feats, even if I stick to the three key feats (stopping at Dimensional Dervish, instead of Savant).

But then I was thinking about alternatives, and I took a close look at wording. It occurs to me that there is an argument that can be made that a Magus can use Spell Combat and dimension door together to teleport up to a foe and take his full attack. There is also an argument against it. I'm looking for more input, and ideally an official/semi-official response.

(I don't see any question that you could take the full attack and teleport away, because the order is different.)

Quoting for convenient access:

Spell Combat wrote:


As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty).
Dimension Door wrote:


After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn.

The argument is based in the fact that you are not taking a standard action to cast dimension door. Rather, you are casting the spell as part of a full-round action, which consists of, in either order:


  • casting a spell with a casting time of 1 standard action
  • taking your attacks

Basically, the question is whether dimension door should "short-circuit" the rest of the full-round action or not. I'm really on the fence about this; it obviously benefits me down the road to be able to say I can teleport and full attack without taking three feats, and I can see it being valid by the rules as written. But it's similarly easy to say that this violates the intent of the rules, if not their specific wording.

(Side note: I see no argument potential in saying that a Magus can use Spell Combat and dimension door just fine if he has Dimensional Agility, but not the rest of the feat line. That's likely what I'll do with my Magus.)


Good thing dimension door doesn't mention using a standard action to cast it.

It literally says 'After using this spell'

Otherwise quickened dimension doors would allow you to do stuff too, right?

By the rules, its simple. You use dimension door, your actions are done. Period.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Spell Combat is the general rule, and dimension door is the specific rule, so no. You can't dimension door and attack without that feat line.

Coincidentally, that's why this spell exists.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber

The point I'm seeing isn't really tied to what type of action you use to cast dimension door. Nor specific vs. general rules, but the specific wording of the ability and spell.

Specifically, you are casting dimension door as part of a full-round action. The attacks are part of the same full-round action, not a distinct action. You are not taking other actions, but completing the same full-round action. Does dimension door stop you from completing that action, or not?

Force hook charge is going in my spellbook and prep as soon as I have the cash to pick it up or level (I burn through Arcane Pool too fast to feel comfortable spending it to prepare spells as well). And for most situations, force hook charge makes this whole question moot, as I can accomplish the same effect 90% of the time for a lower-level slot.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
PhelanArcetus wrote:
Specifically, you are casting dimension door as part of a full-round action. The attacks are part of the same full-round action, not a distinct action. You are not taking other actions, but completing the same full-round action. Does dimension door stop you from completing that action, or not?

The problem I see with this line of thinking is from this sentence in the Spell Combat description:

"A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks."

You have to choose to cast your spell before or after the weapon attacks. If you cast the spell (dimension door) first, then the attack actions come after, which is not allowed in the dimension door description. But, as you said in your original post, you can dimension door then full attack with spell combat if you have the Dimensional Agility feat.


PhelanArcetus wrote:
Specifically, you are casting dimension door as part of a full-round action. The attacks are part of the same full-round action, not a distinct action. You are not taking other actions, but completing the same full-round action. Does dimension door stop you from completing that action, or not?

Good point. It says 'after using this spell' but then says any other actions. I think the intent is certainly that you can't, but there's room for a little loophole in there, maybe.

PhelanArcetus wrote:
Force hook charge is going in my spellbook and prep as soon as I have the cash to pick it up or level (I burn through Arcane Pool too fast to feel comfortable spending it to prepare spells as well).

You only need to do it once. Once you've prepped the spell, scribe it in your book.

Assuming the section on Preparing Wizard Spells applies to Magus also, you could even leave a spell slot open, then near the end of the day if you still have a pool point, prepare spells (just the one) spend the point, then scribe.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Remember folks, "action" means something specific in the rules.

If I have BAB +6/+1, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, and Improved TWF; and then I take a full-attack to stab you four times, I've only taken one action. I took a full-round action, which is a single action. I did NOT take four standard actions.

As Grick noted, strictly speaking, the spell says you can't take any other actions - but your attacks are part of the same action you used to cast it. Again, a full-round action is only one action.

However, as Grick also noted, it's very likely an oversight, so be prepared for repercussions.

EDIT: Reworded for less snark.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:

Remember folks, "action" means something specific in the rules.

If I have BAB +6/+1, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, and Improved TWF; and then I take a full-attack to stab you four times, I've only taken one action. I took a full-round action, which is a single action. I did NOT take four standard actions.

As Grick noted, strictly speaking, the spell says you can't take any other actions - but your attacks are part of the same action you used to cast it. Again, a full-round action is only one action.

Again I have to disagree with this type of logic. Yes, a full-attack is an action, but it is also composed of multiple attack actions. After you cast Dimension Door, you can't take any other action. That should include the attack actions that would have come after the spell, if the magus would have cast a different spell.

Let's take a different full-attack action using the same logic. A fighter has 3 attacks for his full-attack action. He doesn't have Improved Trip, but he thinks he can avoid or suck up the damage from an attack of opportunity, so he goes for a trip maneuver anyway to knock the enemy prone (-4 to AC the rest of his attacks and provokes an attack of opportunity of his own if he wants to stand up next turn). He attempts the trip as his first attack action and provokes the attack. His opponent gets lucky and not only hits, but crits and confirms, dropping the fighter. Does the fighter still get to have his second and third attack actions, even though his now unconscious? It's all the same action, right?

Cheliax

Does this mean that when you cast DDoor and zap yourself somewhere that you are not able to take any attacks of opportunity at your new location until your next turn?

Technically, they way that DDoor is worded, it should stop all free actions also. This would kill the following:

Cease Concentration on Spell
Drop an Item
Drop Prone
Speak

Dimensional Door must really confuse you to use..


The intent of DD was to bring your round to an end. The Magus has nothing that supports going against that intention. Of course the devs probably did not think of this issue, but that still does not change the fact that a very specific feat was created just to be able to continue to act after DD.

I would require the feat-line in order to get past DD's effects.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber

Honestly, I had forgotten force hook charge when I was thinking about this. While it's nice to know, and Dimensional Agility definitely does much of the work of the whole line for a Magus, I think I'll be just fine with force hook charge. I don't think the repercussions would be too horrible, given that it's really just dodging one feat.

I say when I get the cash or level because I literally have 10 gp at the moment, which isn't enough even if I use Knowledge Pool to skip spending 375 gp on a scroll. I hadn't thought about that, and I definitely find it cheesy... but I honestly think if there was anything I'd drop from the class, it would be Knowledge Pool. Unfortunately, the DM hasn't been handing out much loot... but I expect to see some pretty substantial rewards when the adventure ends. I'm pretty sure I'm well below appropriate gear levels, without bothering to calculate. (I'd also like another 3rd level slot; the NPC with haste isn't going to be around for too much longer, and given the party makeup, haste is probably the best action I can take.)

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

pluvia33 wrote:
Again I have to disagree with this type of logic. Yes, a full-attack is an action, but it is also composed of multiple attack actions.

It's not my logic. It's what the rules say. I didn't extrapolate it from other parts of the rules - it's in there explicitly. If that bothers you (understandable), you'll have to argue with the devs, not with me. We're not talking about my interpretation. You're simply contradicting the text.

Read first, argue later.


pluvia33 wrote:
Yes, a full-attack is an action, but it is also composed of multiple attack actions.

No. An attack action is a specific game-reserved term for a single attack made as a standard action. A full attack can be comprised of multiple attacks, but not multiple attack actions.

pluvia33 wrote:
He attempts the trip as his first attack action and provokes the attack. His opponent gets lucky and not only hits, but crits and confirms, dropping the fighter. Does the fighter still get to have his second and third attack actions, even though his now unconscious? It's all the same action, right?

The attack of opportunity interrupts the action. After the AoO is resolved, you can continue the action, if appropriate. For example, if the fighter was not unconscious, but instead knocked prone, he could continue his action by making his additional attacks from prone (or give them up for a move action to stand).

Happler wrote:
Does this mean that when you cast DDoor and zap yourself somewhere that you are not able to take any attacks of opportunity at your new location until your next turn?

Attacks of opportunity are not actions. They should be, but they're not. So a cheese monkey could still argue that he can make AoOs after a DDoor, but the intent is probably otherwise.

Grand Lodge

Happler wrote:
Dimensional Door must really confuse you to use..

Yeah, Reading Dimension agility and DD, it seems they are implying some form of "teleport sickness."


i think you may be happier with this little trick, than the whole hit and run thing... It's kind of the same thing.
Tho diminsion door (withs its feats) allows your to catch your target flat footed on the round you use the spell.
Useing force hook charge along with the feats [disorienting maneuver] (witch requires dodge and acrobatics) and [opening volley] gives you an advantage of +2 from the disorienting maneuver and +4 from teh opening volley.
Granted the acrobatic checks for avoiding the AoO of those you pass by is high and to accomplish the disorienting maneuver at full speed is also up there (you can use opening volley by itself)
+10 acrobatics for full speed plus
Situation Base Acrobatics DC*
Move through a threatened area Opponent's Combat Maneuver Defense
Move through an enemy's space 5 + opponent's Combat Maneuver Defense
* This DC is used to avoid an attack of opportunity due to movement. This DC increases by 2 for each additional opponent avoided in 1 round.

your looking at a difficulty of 10+5+ taret CMD
you need alot of training in acrobatics so get opening volley first and use it to get the +4 and build up to the addtional +2 and the missing of AoOs.
So at least opening volley seems worth the trouble if you want to use this spell to its full effect. And note that mobility msybe a good choice if you dont want to go the whole acrobatics route.. BUT it would look cool as (the dung that falls from the orifice of the man next too you).

Grand Lodge

Hum, i can't remember, but does a ranged touch attack count as a ranged attack. If not your out of luck. Also, isn't acrobatics for a magus a unrealistic to be trained that high? So, I'm thinking the three feats for DDoor is better option for fast combat. What if you don't hit with the Force hook charge? You don't do damage and there goes your bonus.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yes, ranged touch attacks are considered ranged attacks. Why wouldn't they be? The words are in the very name! Ranged touch attack.


Reviving this thread rather than creating a new one...

I can't find an official answer on this topic, so being that the question just came up in my playgroup...

Can you use Dimension Door with Spell Combat and still take all of your attacks? The way that DDoor is worded, you could technically Spell Combat, take a full attack, and then DDoor, but you couldn't Spell Combat, DDoor, and then full attack...

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

AerynTahlro wrote:

Reviving this thread rather than creating a new one...

I can't find an official answer on this topic, so being that the question just came up in my playgroup...

Can you use Dimension Door with Spell Combat and still take all of your attacks? The way that DDoor is worded, you could technically Spell Combat, take a full attack, and then DDoor, but you couldn't Spell Combat, DDoor, and then full attack...

The debate here centers on one thing:

DDoor says you can't take any more actions. An entire full-attack (Spell Combat or not) is a single action.

If you cast DDoor during a full-attack, you've already started that action. Therefore, if you take the wordings all literally, there's nothing stopping you from completing your current action (the Spell Combat full-attack), you just can't take any other actions afterward.

The counter to this is that DDoor was written before the Magus, and some therefore speculate that the intent is for DDoor to end your turn and the aforementioned action thing is just a loophole that slipped through the cracks.

So technically it works, but it's possible it's not supposed to. Last I heard, that's where it still stands.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber

You can definitely Spell Combat, take your attacks, and dimension door to safety, as far as I'm aware.

Whether you can begin with dimension door... well, I think that by a very strict reading of the wording, you can... but I also think that as a DM, I would disallow it (without the Dimensional Agility feat). It just doesn't look like an intended thing, more like a consequence of how Spell Combat happened to be written.

For example, if Spell Combat was written as "when you take the full attack action, you may also cast a spell (standard caveats from Spell Combat) as a free action, rather than its normal casting time, either before or after the full attack", then this would definitely not work for dimension door first.

I'm not sure if anyone flagged this for devs or not. I don't recall doing it myself.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

One might also put the blame on the wording of DDoor, as "can't take any more actions" means you suddenly become mute for a few seconds as well.


Another recent thread on the same issue.

edit:The other one has FAQ's.

Qadira

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Um, if you're looking for a different option then force hook charge or dimension door might I recommend:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/bladed-dash

You can full attack then bladed dash or bladed dash then full attack. It's a pretty all purpose spell plus it give you a free attack at a large bonus as part of the spell (or many free attacks if you can line up the greater version of the spell). Finally, it is lower level then both Force Hook Charge (is more likely to cause more damage as well, plus it doesn't have to deal with SR) and Dimension Door, and gets you basically the same end result. It's only failing in comparison to those two options is that it has a shorter range. But considering the perks it has in comparison... I'd say it's well worth the trade.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber

Bladed Dash is pretty excellent. Honestly, I'm not sure I like that it exists, but it's definitely something to throw onto the list.


If you get access to telekinetic charge, you can use it to throw yourself and full-attack. This method gets by obstacles as a kind of 'not quite flight'.


xevious573 wrote:

Um, if you're looking for a different option then force hook charge or dimension door might I recommend:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/bladed-dash

You can full attack then bladed dash or bladed dash then full attack. It's a pretty all purpose spell plus it give you a free attack at a large bonus as part of the spell (or many free attacks if you can line up the greater version of the spell). Finally, it is lower level then both Force Hook Charge (is more likely to cause more damage as well, plus it doesn't have to deal with SR) and Dimension Door, and gets you basically the same end result. It's only failing in comparison to those two options is that it has a shorter range. But considering the perks it has in comparison... I'd say it's well worth the trade.

I'd like Greater Bladed Dash as a Magus a lot more if it had gotten rid of the "You may make a single melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against any one creature you are adjacent to at any point along this 30 feet" restriction, to use it with Lunge feat. As it is, that sounds like a whole lot of AoO owwies coming your way to actually use Greater Bladed Dash against a bunch of foes.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I showed a friend of mine bladed dash and the greater version. He was only impressed until he realized that lesser bladed dash didn't do what greater bladed dash did.

Now he thinks they're garbage. Bladed dash only grants one extra attack, and greater bladed dash is too high level for what it does (he's of the mind that the latter should exist, and the former should do what the latter one does).

How might I convince him of their awesomeness?


Use it against him. :)


StreamOfTheSky wrote:
As it is, that sounds like a whole lot of AoO owwies coming your way to actually use Greater Bladed Dash against a bunch of foes.

The movement from Bladed Dash does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The only way you'll be taking AoOs is if you're threatened when you cast (if you don't cast defensively) or if you're making those attacks using an attack form that provokes (like an untrained combat maneuver or unarmed strike).


I don´t see what the Problem is , you need only one feat to use Dimension Door with Spell Combat and thats Dimensional Agility, it removes the restriction of Dimension Door and lets you take actions after D-dooring.
One feat is ok for what you get.


Grick wrote:
StreamOfTheSky wrote:
As it is, that sounds like a whole lot of AoO owwies coming your way to actually use Greater Bladed Dash against a bunch of foes.
The movement from Bladed Dash does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The only way you'll be taking AoOs is if you're threatened when you cast (if you don't cast defensively) or if you're making those attacks using an attack form that provokes (like an untrained combat maneuver or unarmed strike).

I did not notice the part saying the movement does not provoke. So greater bladed dash is just as awesome as the regular version, then.

Also, poor monks and rogues. Seems like every class but them gets options for no-AoO movement that auto-succeed... The two classes that should be the best at moving around the battlefield...

Andoran

Cheapy wrote:

Spell Combat is the general rule, and dimension door is the specific rule, so no. You can't dimension door and attack without that feat line.

Coincidentally, that's why this spell exists.

ok so following the logic of the text of Force Hook Charge:

"You create a hook of force that strikes the target and drags you to a space adjacent to it. Make a ranged touch attack against the target; if the touch attack succeeds, the target takes 1 point of force damage per caster level. Whether or not the touch attack hits, the force hook drags you in a straight line to a square adjacent to the target."

does it then follow that whether or not your attack versus an invisible opponent succeeds, you would end up adjacent to them and able to attack the adjacent square in which you are able to see your force hook? would this also then mitigate attack deficiencies applied to attacking an invisible opponent?

hmm powerful indeed.


Avalyn wrote:
does it then follow that whether or not your attack versus an invisible opponent succeeds

An invisible opponent is not a valid target for the spell.

Aiming a Spell - Target or Targets: "Some spells have a target or targets. [...] You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target."

Unless you can see them, in which case, yes, you can target them, hook them, and go smack them.

Andoran

Grick wrote:
Avalyn wrote:
does it then follow that whether or not your attack versus an invisible opponent succeeds

An invisible opponent is not a valid target for the spell.

Aiming a Spell - Target or Targets: "Some spells have a target or targets. [...] You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target."

Unless you can see them, in which case, yes, you can target them, hook them, and go smack them.

what about an ally sensing them with Scent and shouting out location or a concentrated effort finding 'aura' with Detect Magic?


Avalyn wrote:
what about an ally sensing them with Scent and shouting out location or a concentrated effort finding 'aura' with Detect Magic?

Can you see or touch the target? If not, you can't target him with a spell.

Knowing which square he's in (generally) means you've pinpointed his location. Having done so, you can attack him, but he still benefits from Total Concealment. While you can swing your weapon wildly through a square (50% miss chance), you can't really do so with a targeted spell.


Jiggy wrote:


DDoor says you can't take any more actions. An entire full-attack (Spell Combat or not) is a single action.

If you cast DDoor during a full-attack, you've already started that action. Therefore, if you take the wordings all literally, there's nothing stopping you from completing your current action (the Spell Combat full-attack), you just can't take any other actions afterward.

So technically it works, but it's possible it's not supposed to. Last I heard, that's where it still stands.

So then a non-magus could start a full round action (full attack), cast a quickened D-Door, and finish the full round action that they've already taken?

I see D.Door as essentially dazing you without the official condition status (and thus it can't be removed or have immunity from).

Let's recap:
It's certainly against the RAI.
There's a feat that will let you do this.
And the support for the RAW is actually a bit thin.

If a DM doesn't say "No", then my advice would be to talk with your DM to introduce them to the word.

-James


james maissen wrote:
So then a non-magus could start a full round action (full attack), cast a quickened D-Door, and finish the full round action that they've already taken?

You can't take a swift action during another action. (You can do this with a free action, because it specifically says so)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber

I am 100% certain that using dimension door in Spell Combat and not having any action restrictions from it is NOT RAI. I think it's an obscure and unintended loophole resulting from the specific way the rules were phrased.

As a DM, I would not allow it. (I obviously would allow it with Dimensional Agility.) I would also not use it as a player. I mentioned it to the DM running the game I have my magus in, in pretty much exactly this sense. "I think the exact wording allows it, but I don't think that's intended, and I'm not going to try doing it."

Basically I threw up this thread to say "am I insane, or am I actually seeing this (obviously unintended, slightly broken) loophole?" It looks like I'm right about the specific wording, and also about how this cannot possibly be intended.

I saw it, I wouldn't allow it as DM, I won't use it as a player. I will, however, only take Dimensional Agility, and not go on to take the rest of the feat chain, because I don't see any real need to do so (and I'm not sure if/when I'll get to Dimensional Agility, either). Force hook charge and bladed dash will suffice for my character's purposes, most likely.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm of the opinion that it would absolutely work in the magus' favor.

Once he casts dimension door as part of Spell Combat, he can still make his attacks WITHOUT USING ANY ADDITIONAL ACTIONS (which is what dimension door prevents).

Osirion

Paizo Superscriber
PhelanArcetus wrote:
you are not taking a standard action to cast dimension door.

Irrelevant, if you complete casting from memory, scroll, wand etc, dimension door then your turn is over unless you have something that says "ignore that part of DD".


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Except that dimension door doesn't say your turn is over when you cast it, James (you determine when your turn is over with a verbal declaration, not the spell). It just says you can't take any more actions, which are well defined within the game as one of the following: Full round action, Standard action, attack action, move action, swift action, free action, immediate action.

Osirion

Paizo Superscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
It just says you can't take any more actions, which are well defined within the game as one of the following: Full round action, Standard action, attack action, move action, swift action, free action, immediate action.

I understand your position. I just believe it isn't referring to types of actions but to doing anything at all including completing a started Full Round action.

Would you assert that an invisible wizard could cast sleep on someone without breaking invis? It isn't an attack. No attack roll was performed.


Ravingdork wrote:

I'm of the opinion that it would absolutely work in the magus' favor.

Once he casts dimension door as part of Spell Combat, he can still make his attacks WITHOUT USING ANY ADDITIONAL ACTIONS (which is what dimension door prevents).

I'm not terribly familiar with the Magus, so please forgive any mistakes, but consider this:

A magus using spell combat with Improved Unarmed Strike uses Spell Combat, choosing not to cast defensively.

His opponent takes her AoO and uses Stunning Fist. The attack lands, the Magus makes his concentration check but fails his Fortitude save.

The Magus is now Stunned:

Stunned wrote:
A stunned creature drops everything held, can't take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).

The Magus is not using a held weapon, so has nothing to drop.

Can the Magus complete his full round attack? If not, why not?


Stunned doesn't have "After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn." it has "can't take actions". He can't even finish the action, because it became illegal to take it in the first place.

Well, I don't think this matters either way because I'll just use bladed dash, but that's what my argument would be for it.

Osirion

Paizo Superscriber

"can't take actions" and "can't take any other" are equivalent for this purpose.

Because if you assert that the dimension door Magus can complete his Full Attack then so can the Stunned Magus.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You have used logic against Ravingdork!

...

It was super effective!

There's too many good points for me to fight it anymore. Color me convinced, though I still think the wording could be clearer.

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