Even though I would not allow this in my game with my reading of RAW....I voted it for a FAQ as those poor PFS GMs need all the help they can get.
But I look at the rules in the UC about number of hands required despite size of weapon to be similair to the rules regarding bods....a med. Character always needs two hands to fire a bow of any size.
Even though I would not allow this in my game with my reading of RAW....I voted it for a FAQ as those poor PFS GMs need all the help they can get.
The help is actually there. Read the campaign guidelines carefully. If a player wants to use any resource that's not in the core book it's up to the PLAYER to prove he's got the right to do so. Which means he's got to cough up the book/page reference or the watermarked PDF printout for any class, or item he wishes to use that's not in the core book.
PFS puts the burdens of proof on the player, not the GM in many of these cases.
Yes in case you're wondering, that means you have to OWN this material to play it.
@LazarX: The rules for PFS quipment purchase are off topic in this thread. If you are unwilling to take my word on them please take the discussion to the Pathfinder Society boards.
However, I will try to clarify them for you one last time:
Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat
The playtest versions of the gunslinger, ninja, and samurai are no longer legal for play as of 8/4/11. Anyone playing the playtest version must have updated his or her character as of 8/4/11. Updating your character means adjusting only the things that have changed, but not rebuilding the character.
All material from this book is legal for play except as noted below. Some rules elements are legal but function differently in Pathfinder Society Organized Play, as described.
...
Equipment: Advanced firearms on Table 3–5 are not permitted in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. No character may purchase a firearm unless he possesses the Gunsmithing feat. All ammunition except metal cartridges may be purchased in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
For Pathfinder Society Organized Play gear size only plays a role with regard to Always Available Items (GtPFSOP p. 19). Outside of Always Available Items players must rely on Core Assumption and Additional Resources to determine what gear is available. The only limitation towards size is derived from Table 5-3 which determines the Fame required by a PC in order to be eligible to purchase items of a certain value. With enough Fame a PFS character can by a huge fullplate barding or even a colossal musket.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Wait...to reach this absurd situation, you have to intentionally mis-read the actual rules and then intentionally mis-read the PFS rules?
Yeah, this is definitely a FAQ issue. I'll write it up now:
Q: A player in my PFS game is intentionaly mis-reading the rules and claiming that they have validly interpreted them, even though it's completely obvious that they haven't. What do I do?
A: That person is a douchebag. Do not play with them. On behalf of PFS, tell them to go play, oh, I don't know, let's say GURPS.
Wait...to reach this absurd situation, you have to intentionally mis-read the actual rules and then intentionally mis-read the PFS rules?
Yeah, this is definitely a FAQ issue. I'll write it up now:
Q: A player in my PFS game is intentionaly mis-reading the rules and claiming that they have validly interpreted them, even though it's completely obvious that they haven't. What do I do?
A: That person is a douchebag. Do not play with them. On behalf of PFS, tell them to go play, oh, I don't know, let's say GURPS.
You are out of line. Please try to be civil.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Q: A player in my PFS game is intentionaly mis-reading the rules and claiming that they have validly interpreted them, even though it's completely obvious that they haven't. What do I do?
A: Seriously? We need a FAQ for this? Okay, use your judgment - if the rule has two possible interpretations, one of which is broken on its face and the other of which is sensible and looks balanced, go with the later. Also, consider replacing all regular scissors in your home with safety scissors.
Huh... Paizo only lets you favorite a post once.
I did not get the funny part.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Regular scissors have sharp points, whereas safety scissors are rounded on the end. The former are for persons who can use scissors for their intended purposes. The later are for those who may be tempted to insert the scissors into their nose or run while carrying them.
Does that help?
Either paizo doesn't want to clarify and figures everyone will run it the way they want to and not have to set a concrete rule down or they figure the question has been answered. Which it is no one knows until they do comment. Best of luck.
Although the insults need to chill seriously. No one here is in elementary school.
Hmm, collosal guns makes me think of Trigun. I can see some cool character concepts here.
As per RAW, Vash the Stampede can wield any gun of any size category at no penalty.
Removed a post and the reply to it. Backhanded insults insinuating another user acts like another one aren't cool.
Removed a post and the reply to it. Backhanded insults insinuating another user acts like another one aren't cool.
Here we have direct intervention by a moderator, yet no hint that they believe that an faq would be appropriate or that there is any contradiction in the rules at all. Thread is still located in General Discussion, and has not been moved back to Rules Questions. Time to accept this thread is not being ignored by the moderators, they just don't see any reason to comment on it beyond telling people to not insult each other and disparage each other by comparing each other to other posters who may have a reputation for some sort of behaviour which is not popular.
I don't see how you can take this seriously.Huh... Paizo only lets you favorite a post once.I did not get the funny part.
I am explain a rule at the core of Pathfinder Society Organized Play - equipment purchase.
Why that suddenly triggers Sebastian's insulting behaviour I do not understand and since I don't visit this part of the board regularly I do not get the reference if there is any.
Removed a post and the reply to it. Backhanded insults insinuating another user acts like another one aren't cool.Here we have direct intervention by a moderator, yet no hint that they believe that an faq would be appropriate or that there is any contradiction in the rules at all. Thread is still located in General Discussion, and has not been moved back to Rules Questions. Time to accept this thread is not being ignored by the moderators, they just don't see any reason to comment on it beyond telling people to not insult each other and disparage each other by comparing each other to other posters who may have a reputation for some sort of behaviour which is not popular.
The only significance of moderator presence is that someone has made a totally inappropriate post, which has been flagged and then removed.
You know it actually sort of looks like this is all just because they decided to describe firearms with terminology that it would seem was not previously applied to ranged weapons.
That is entirely possible. How would you rule?
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I think the difference in the rules boils down to two terms.
shoot in the firearm rules.
wield in the regular weapon rules.
You can apply both and they are not mutually exclusive.
You can wield a two-handed weapon of your size, but not of a size category larger than you, because there is no weapon category higher than two-handed.
You cannot shoot a rifle one category smaller than you in one hand, because it requires two-hands to shoot it. However you could wield it as an improvised club in one hand.
You can shoot and wield a pistol one size category larger than you, because it requires one hand to shoot and two hands to wield which you can do simultaneously. But you could not wield a pistol two size categories larger than you for the same reason you cannot wield a rifle one size category larger than you.
This I believe supports RAW and RAI. Is it an interpretation to get where I want the rules to be? Sure. But I think it makes common sense, and so that's how I'll be running my tables in both Pathfinder Society Organized Play, and my Home Campaigns.
I think the difference in the rules boils down to two terms.
shoot in the firearm rules.
wield in the regular weapon rules.You can apply both and they are not mutually exclusive.
You can wield a two-handed weapon of your size, but not of a size category larger than you, because there is no weapon category higher than two-handed.
You cannot shoot a rifle one category smaller than you in one hand, because it requires two-hands to shoot it. However you could wield it as an improvised club in one hand.
You can shoot and wield a pistol one size category larger than you, because it requires one hand to shoot and two hands to wield which you can do simultaneously. But you could not wield a pistol two size categories larger than you for the same reason you cannot wield a rifle one size category larger than you.
This I believe supports RAW and RAI. Is it an interpretation to get where I want the rules to be? Sure. But I think it makes common sense, and so that's how I'll be running my tables in both Pathfinder Society Organized Play, and my Home Campaigns.
I have said this same thing at least 4 different ways already, yet The Grandfather wants to insist that this very simple concept of "new rule adds to old rule and does not replace old rule unless it states that it does" is somehow ambiguous and confusing. He has already said that one player in his PFS game wields a large rifle, and he just seems to have a stake in this preposterous mutilation of the rules, and just can't accept that he has allowed an entirely illegal use of inappropriately sized firearms in his PFS game.
He is wrong. He has been proven wrong over and over. He wants his player to wield a weapon he can not wield, and there is nothing we can say to convince him. We say "The sky is blue. The Blues are a type of music. This does not make the sky music." He says "It's obvious that the sky was created by Robert Johnson, and now that he is dead, there is no sky."
That maybe so, but would not adress the actual problem at hand.
Yes it does, DM looks at this and says hell no. Done, simple fix. I'd almost give said player a warning about trying to rules lawyer/munchkin my game.
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Removed a post and the reply to it. Backhanded insults insinuating another user acts like another one aren't cool.Here we have direct intervention by a moderator, yet no hint that they believe that an faq would be appropriate or that there is any contradiction in the rules at all. Thread is still located in General Discussion, and has not been moved back to Rules Questions. Time to accept this thread is not being ignored by the moderators, they just don't see any reason to comment on it beyond telling people to not insult each other and disparage each other by comparing each other to other posters who may have a reputation for some sort of behaviour which is not popular.
You'll have to note that I am not a Developer. If you feel this should be in the FAQ, you should flag it as such. If you have issues with the moderation practices, please post to the Website Feedback forum.
No. Just painful... And probably not in the way you think.
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Why that suddenly triggers Sebastian's insulting behaviour I do not understand and since I don't visit this part of the board regularly I do not get the reference if there is any.I like to think of it as painful honesty, and it's free with every purchase.
Yeah about that, I received an order from Ponylawyer.com and my painful honesty was missing from the box, who do I contact about that?
'Cause when I ask for Customer Service all I get is "Neigh."
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@zulphryx:
18x2x2x2x2=288 lbs; relatively easy for an Str 18 dwarf.
to lift and carry, yes, to wield in combat, probably not.
RAW reloading is a free action for a 12th level musket master. In addition multiplying mass and/or volume does not correspond with multiplying proportions by the same amount.
then where does the weight come from? give us a break. it weighs more because its physically bigger (that's why reach weapons increase reach with size category - large creatures with reach weapons have 20' reach, huge have 30', etc.) its not some magically denser material.
RAW there is nothing supporting your extrapolations for ammo expenditure.
I agree. its not 16 doses of powder. its a colossal sized dose of powder and musket ball. ammo must size appropriately as well. you think 20 colossal arrows still weigh the same as medium ones?
...multiplying mass and/or volume does not correspond with multiplying proportions by the same amount.then where does the weight come from? give us a break. it weighs more because its physically bigger (that's why reach weapons increase reach with size category - large creatures with reach weapons have 20' reach, huge have 30', etc.) its not some magically denser material.
This is simple math.
If you have a 1'x1'x1' cube its volume is 1 cubic foot.If you multiply dimensions by 2 you get a 2'x2'x2' cube but the volume is not 2 cubic feet - it is 8 cubic feet.
The same applies to objects like weapons or armor. While an Huge items weight is 8 times greater than a Medium size equivalent its proportions are not; just like a 300 lbs man is not two times taller than a 150 lbs man.
Now that SKR has made an FAQ on this question I see no more benefit in continued discussion.